Noisy Steinway Action

[Regi Hedahl]

My customer is complaining that her year 2014 Steinway B action is making noise on a group of notes. The noise occurs when the hammer rebounds. Any ideas on the source of the noise on this particular piano before I drive 200 miles to go see the piano?

Here is a video.
https://youtu.be/nYfMF2JoWWE

Regi

[Joseph Garrett]

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

Some of that is hammers hitting the wippen on rebound. Raising the hammers back up to the correct blow distance should help some. Regular action noise and possible loose screws. Also a bit of a thump of the capstan/wippen contact felt. If she didn't talk we could hear the "noise" better.<G> I suspect she is a "player" and has beaten the damned thing into submission and loosey goosey condition in short order. Not sure why such pianists don't understand the aspect of action noise. It's ALWAYS there, just some more than others. I think it comes from listening to records where all that is filtered out in the recording process. 200 miles?!! There is no one closer? I hope she's got deep pockets for that nonsense.<G>
Best,
Joe

[Joe DeFazio]

Just listening on my phone, sounds like the damper is on a nodal point and letting a harmonic ring.

I'll listen on proper speakers later.

Joe DeFazio
Pittsburgh

[Regi Hedahl]

>I suspect she is a "player" and has beaten the damned thing into submission and loosey goosey condition in short order.

Yes, jack hammer pianist. Piano also goes out of tune especially in the bass in very short order but some of it may be because the piano is so new. I wonder if the hammer flange pinning may have gotten loose. Tighter pinning would cause the hammer to rebound slower and make less noise.

>200 miles?!! There is no one closer? I hope she's got deep pockets for that nonsense.<G>

Nope, nobody closer who is competent on actions. Fortunately, I will be picking up an action in the area for hammer replacement.

Regi

[Joseph Garrett]

Regi,
Let us know what you find. This is always a problem with high end players, imo.
Best,
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 4, 2017 8:06 PM
>To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>

[Joe DeFazio]

Hi Regi,

Now that I’m home and listening on good speakers, there are two issues. The first is that on the note E4, the 3rd partial (B5) is ringing upon damper engagement. The second is typical but somewhat loud mechanical noise on the rebound.

You can first try to figure out which is bothering her. If you point out the nodal ringing (which you could demonstrate by stopping the string with a finger 2/3 of the way towards the bridge and then playing the note), then it’ll surely bother her once she’s aware of it, though. You could instead ask her “does the offending noise sound like a note, or does it sound like a thud or clunk?"

To fix the nodal ringing, you might tilt the damper head towards the keyboard or the tail to slightly change which portion of the felt engages the string first. If the felt that hits the string first does not fall on the nodal point, then the problem harmonic will probably recede greatly or completely. You might be able to needle one area of the felt to accomplish the same thing.

To fix the second (rebound noise), you’ll have to try to isolate the cause, and then probably greatly needle some felts somewhere and/or rebush/repin. Worn key bushings can cause very noisy rebounds, so check them first. If they’re bad, rebush if budget allows. The backrail cloth is another culprit; if it is hard, needle the heck out of it with a multi-needle voicing tool. Needle the key end felts, and check the damper underlever for problems (check the damper upstop rail while you’re looking back there, though it’s unlikely to be a culprit). Make sure that the damper guide rail bushings are OK. While you’re in the neighborhood, check the key leads and damper underlever leads.

If that doesn’t do it, work your way up the stack. Needle the wippen cushions (I sometimes add a little VS Profelt there with some teflon powder also, and lubricate the capstan top). Check the wippen pinning (both at its flange and especially at the balancier). Needle the jack stop (position) felt. Repin the hammer flange about as tight as seems prudent (if necessary), and brush the knuckle and drop pad. I work some teflon into both as well. If it seems necessary, you can also very gently needle the surface of the hammer rebound (erroneously called “rest”) cushion (just fluff up the surface of the cloth covering; don’t try to needle into the soft interior). And, of course, you’ll have tightened all of the screws.

Often, this kind of problem is compound, and one step removes 20% of the noise, another step removes 15%, etc., until you finally make a signifigant cumulative change.

Best of luck with it,

Joe DeFazio
Pittsburgh

[Regi Hedahl]

Hi Joe,

Thank you for going into detail on how you deal with this issue. Interestingly, my own 1955 Steinway (with all original action components) has a very quiet action but my Baldwin is much noisier when the hammer rebounds. This kind of noise doesn't bother me when I play but I've always wondered why the difference and what could be done to alleviate the noise. So I will go try what you wrote on this piano and see what happens before working on the customers piano.

Thanks again,
Regi

[David Skolnik]

Regi -
Joe's assessment is indeed thorough, but perhaps too much so.  We can always find issues that could benefit from attention.  Here, she is complaining about something quite specific, though ambiguous.  So here are my thoughts:
- Joe G is right about her incessant talking through the demonstration, so I would ask her to take the time to list the notes that bother her, in an email, and then redo the video slowly, with the phone positioned nearer the dampers, as the nodal sound was much more obvious when the phone was in that position. 
- Joe D was almost right about the E's harmonic... it was the 6th, not the 3rd.
- When were you last there?
- Are you the only one who tunes this?
- How often?  You say the bass goes out quickly.  How do you know this?  Does she call to tell you?
- If she is, in fact, a 'player', and the piano was new in 2014, then it would stand to reason that it needs a thorough regulation.  Could you take both actions when you go up there?   How long could she be without piano?  Not long, I'm guessing. 
- If felt (or knuckle) needling is needed on a piano this new, then I think it calls for material replacement.  Needling will be temporary, and mess with regulation.

What's average speed on highways near you?

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

At 06:43 AM 2/5/2017, you wrote:

Hi Joe,

Thank you for going into detail on how you deal with this issue. Interestingly, my own 1955 Steinway (with all original action components) has a very quiet action but my Baldwin is much noisier when the hammer rebounds.  This kind of noise doesn't bother me when I play but I've always wondered why the difference and what could be done to alleviate the noise.  So I will go try what you wrote on this piano and see what happens before working on the customers piano.

Thanks again,
Regi



> > On Feb 4, 2017, at 9:50 PM, Joe DeFazio <defazi...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > Just listening on my phone, sounds like the damper is on a nodal point and letting a harmonic ring.
> >
> > I'll listen on proper speakers later.
> >
> > Joe DeFazio
> > Pittsburgh
> >
> >> On Feb 4, 2017, at 9:18 PM, Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My customer is complaining that her year 2014 Steinway B action is making noise on a group of notes.  The noise occurs when the hammer rebounds.  Any ideas on the source of the noise on this particular piano before I drive 200 miles to go see the piano?
> >>
> >> Here is a video.
> >> https://youtu.be/nYfMF2JoWWE
> >>
> >> Regi
> >

On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 11:45:22 PM UTC-6, Joe DeFazio wrote:
> Hi Regi,
>

> Now that I’m home and listening on good speakers, there are two issues.  The first is that on the note E4, the 3rd partial (B5) is ringing upon damper engagement. The second is typical but somewhat loud mechanical noise on the rebound. 
>
> You can first try to figure out which is bothering her.  If you point out the nodal ringing (which you could demonstrate by stopping the string with a finger 2/3 of the way towards the bridge and then playing the note), then it’ll surely bother her once she’s aware of it, though.  You could instead ask her “does the offending noise sound like a note, or does it sound like a thud or clunk?"

>
> To fix the nodal ringing, you might tilt the damper head towards the keyboard or the tail to slightly change which portion of the felt engages the string first.  If the felt that hits the string first does not fall on the nodal point, then the problem harmonic will probably recede greatly or completely.  You might be able to needle one area of the felt to accomplish the same thing.
>

> To fix the second (rebound noise), you’ll have to try to isolate the cause, and then probably greatly needle some felts somewhere and/or rebush/repin.  Worn key bushings can cause very noisy rebounds, so check them first.  If they’re bad, rebush if budget allows.  The backrail cloth is another culprit;  if it is hard, needle the heck out of it with a multi-needle voicing tool.  Needle the key end felts, and check the damper underlever for problems (check the damper upstop rail while you’re looking back there, though it’s unlikely to be a culprit).  Make sure that the damper guide rail bushings are OK.  While you’re in the neighborhood, check the key leads and damper underlever leads.
>
> If that doesn’t do it, work your way up the stack.  Needle the wippen cushions (I sometimes add a little VS Profelt there with some teflon powder also, and lubricate the capstan top).  Check the wippen pinning (both at its flange and especially at the balancier).  Needle the jack stop (position) felt.  Repin the hammer flange about as tight as seems prudent (if necessary), and brush the knuckle and drop pad.  I work some teflon into both as well.  If it seems necessary, you can also very gently needle the surface of the hammer rebound (erroneously called “rest†) cushion (just fluff up the surface of the cloth covering; don’t try to needle into the soft interior).  And, of course, you’ll have tightened all of the screws.

>
> Often, this kind of problem is compound, and one step removes 20% of the noise, another step removes 15%, etc., until you finally make a signifigant cumulative change.
>
> Best of luck with it,
>
> Joe DeFazio
> Pittsburgh
>

---

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[Jon Page]

Have the customer install cardboard or similar thin product under the music rack to buffer the noise. Hard knuckles and compressed jack rest felt might be primary sources. If the back rail has no underfelt, that's noisy too. The hammer line probably needs raising and the jacks adjusted forwards to align with the core to reduce travel. I've even heard noise coming from a hard rep lever upstop cushion impacting on the screw; under cutting with a thin, narrow blade reduces the noise. 

[David Skolnik]

I forgot to add: bring some extra damper felt.
Also, since she said it wasn't too bad, would you make the trip now (assuming it's not yet time for tuning) if you didn't have an action to pick up, or would you wait until next tuning?
It sounds like you should consider a mobile home/piano shop.  That could be fun, for a while.

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

[Regi Hedahl]

On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 8:40:08 AM UTC-6, davidskolnik wrote:.

- When were you last there?
- Are you the only one who tunes this?
- How often?  You say the bass goes out quickly.  How do you know this?  Does she call to tell you?

David,

I last tuned the piano 2 weeks ago. I'm the only one who tunes this piano and this was the second time I tuned it. The previous tuning was about 4 months ago. She bought the piano from CA sight unseen, had it shipped and I tuned it maybe a week after it arrived. When I tuned it 2 weeks ago, the pitch had fallen maybe 15 cents in the bass and 5 cents in the tenor and treble area so octaves sounded terrible. The 6^th octave and on up was almost exactly where I had left it last time.

 

- If she is, in fact, a 'player', and the piano was new in 2014, then it would stand to reason that it needs a thorough regulation.  Could you take both actions when you go up there?   How long could she be without piano?  Not long, I'm guessing. 
- If felt (or knuckle) needling is needed on a piano this new, then I think it calls for material replacement.  Needling will be temporary, and mess with regulation.

As far as action regulation, I'm sure I can improve it but I don't think it's needed quite yet. I also always do the regulation on site using a string line and the final tweaking with the action inside the piano and by feel.

 

What's average speed on highways near you?

The average speed on highways near me is 75 mph but I don't care to drive that fast especially in my square bodied 1990 4x4 diesel Suburban. It gets relatively good fuel economy poking along at 60-65 mph but faster than that, fuel economy plunges quickly and it starts to feel scary. The modern cars definitely are much better at handling high speeds but they come at a cost and have much less interior room. 

On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-6, davidskolnik wrote:

I forgot to add: bring some extra damper felt.

Good idea, Thanks

 

Also, since she said it wasn't too bad, would you make the trip now (assuming it's not yet time for tuning) if you didn't have an action to pick up, or would you wait until next tuning?

With these long distance customers, I usually schedule other jobs in the area so it makes the trip worth it. When people call, I put them on the waiting list and as soon as I have enough work to make the trip, I schedule them all during the same day. Many of these long distance customers will also wait because they know that I do good work.

 

It sounds like you should consider a mobile home/piano shop.  That could be fun, for a while.

Yes, I've thought about the mobile home / piano shop. I've got a 30 ft pull behind RV that I might try out for a month in an area about 250 miles away with many pianos.

Regi

 

[Regi Hedahl]

Update:
I want to thank those who responded and to let you all know that the issue has been taken care of. I believe, most of the rebound mechanical noise was coming from the backrail cloth. I needled the heck out of it and noticed a reduction in noise. The customer liked it much better but was still hearing something else. So I removed the damper, needled where the strings contacts the damper and trimmed off the overhang. I then had the customer listen and she was happy. I also noticed that there was almost no aftertouch so I adjusted letoff and raised the hammer line to the point of putting aftertouch back to normal. Based on how sensitive this customer is, it definitely won't be very long until the next call but I kind of like doing this kind of work.

Regi

[David Skolnik]

That's nice.  I'm sorry you didn't take the time to record the improvement.  Any chance that she would make another video, of the same notes (this time without talking), just to be able to actually hear the difference?
You say you returned the aftertouch to normal, but where did that end up putting the let off and blow distance?

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

[Regi Hedahl]

David,

I also adjusted the let off. I do this by feel with the action inside the piano. I suspect that I set it closer than the factory. The action is so new and settling in so much that eventually, the action is going to need a full regulation and that will be the time with I worry about the blow distance, key dip, aftertouch, etc.

Regi