Tuning pin and drill size

[Rob McCall]

Greetings,

I'm going to be putting in my first pinblock and I have a few questions. Ron has an order coming that he doesn't know about yet. :-)

1906 Ivers & Pond 5'9" Grand. The pins I pulled out were .280 by 2-1/2". These were the factory installed pins which seem a little big. I'm thinking of putting in 1/0 or 2/0 pins in the new block. Planning a double pass drilling of 1/4" followed by a bit about .009 smaller than the tuning pins.

Any thoughts on which size is preferred in a new block? Does the fact that 4/0 pins were in the piano make a difference that I'm not aware of? Thanks...

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Brian Trout]

New pinblock is a fresh slate.  You can put in whatever you want to put in.  I'd probably go with the standard 2/0 myself, but that's just me.

 

I can't see what difference what came before would make when all of that gets removed.  Unless I missed something... (which is entirely possible!) 

 

I had an Ivers & Pond that I was rebuilding before it was destroyed in a hurricane.  Nice piano.  I think it had some decent potential.

 

Good luck!

[Rob McCall]

Brian,

I just wasn’t sure if the manufacturer put in larger pins for some complicated torque value reasoning. Or maybe I’m just doing my usual overthinking… :-)

This one is a beauty. Only one family owned. My client is 80 and this was purchased new by his grandfather in 1906 in Boston. He’s restoring it to pass it down to the rest of his family to (hopefully) last another 100 years. It’s at the refinishers right now. Lots of ordering and action work to do for now.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Mike Spalding]

Rob,

The surprise order to Ron is for one of his composite pinblocks? He
recommends drilling .250 followed by .268 for 2/0 (.282). I have
followed his recommendation on 2 blocks that I laminated as he
describes: 9mm Delignit over rotary cut maple, and find them initially
on the tight side, but settling to a manageable torque over time and
multiple tunings. What size drill works best for you will vary
depending on your drill press, your drill bits, and your technique.
Mine were drilled in the piano with a small Craftsman bench press and
12" bits. Do some test drills on scrap from the pinblock, or in an
unused section of the block, before committing.

Mike

[Rob McCall]

My bad, I misread .280 as 4/0 on my chart. 2/0 is .282. Yes, I'm planning an order for a composite block. I have a sample and really enjoy working with it. I just need to get the right thickness once I pull the old block...

I was thinking that drilling 6.8 mm (.268) would be better for a 1/0 pin? Do you find that you drill (.268) and put in a 2/0 with success? Does the hybrid composite block need a tighter fit for the pin?

Thanks.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Mike Spalding]

I initially thought so too, and put 1/0 in my first composite block, but
within a year I was re-pinning the bass and low tenor with 2/0. Given
the choice, I'd rather put up with tight pins for a couple years until
they settle down. My priority was to drill with easily available bits,
and determine which size pin worked best with that combination. As I
see it, loose pin failure must be avoided, and tight pins can be tolerated.

[Rob McCall]

Good anecdotal experiences. Thanks... :-)

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Ron Nossaman]

On 1/8/2015 12:59 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
>
> I was thinking that drilling 6.8 mm (.268) would be better for a 1/0
> pin? Do you find that you drill (.268) and put in a 2/0 with success?
> Does the hybrid composite block need a tighter fit for the pin?

It's preference. The standard as taught around here used to be 0.25" for
the multilam, and 17/64 0.266") for Delignit with as long a pin as
possible. Pianotek recommends 0.257" for Bolduc, 0.272" for Delignit,
and 0.261" or 0.266" for multilam. So where do I average the drill size
for a composite block? I decided not to average at all to accommodate
the multilam, but rather to drill what I was then doing for Delignit
blocks and see what I got. It was far tighter than I expected, which
indicated to me how utterly unimportant the substrate was, and how
ridiculously wasteful it would be to put an expensive low density block
under that cap when the cap was doing the bulk of the work. So the
cheapest low density block immediately available became the standard.
The torque is still surprisingly high initially, but the usual penalty
of snapping and loss of control doesn't happen in these blocks because
of the relatively loose fit and low torque in the substrate. So I don't
worry about the high torque, since it generates no penalty in function,
is extremely easy to tune and control, and should extend the block's
service life. I also use a 2-3/8" pin, regardless of whether the
original was 2-1/2 or not. But that's my experience. The choice is
ultimately yours. You have a sample. Try a few things and remember that
any block gets somewhat looser with age.

Attached is a long term study, due for revision again, that was started,
unfortunately, before I was making my blocks.
Ron N

[Rob McCall]

I'll try different lengths with my sample and see what they feel like. Just to clarify, Ron, your drilling protocol is for a 2/0 pin?

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Ron Nossaman]

On 1/8/2015 3:43 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> I'll try different lengths with my sample and see what they feel
> like. Just to clarify, Ron, your drilling protocol is for a 2/0
> pin?

Yes. 1/0 works for some folks, but It seems to me they flagpole too much
unless you have bushings or an open face block. And I mean it about the
2-3/8 pins. The extra length is unnecessary, and just gives you more
room for torque loading and loss of some control. Since control is the
whole point of this block, I don't see any point in shooting it in the
foot unnecessarily and arbitrarily.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Rob,
Sounds like someone got the cart in front of the horse! You should do the rebuilding BEFORE the Refinishing, imo. I hate working on a freshly refinished piano, in my shop! No matter how careful I am, there's always a few dings that need to be fixed. Fixed dings are never as good as the whole surface being done all in one fell swoop.
BTW, you need to learn tuning pin sizes. You pulled out: ".280"? That's an undersized 2/0! Regular 2/0 pins are .282". For all of the sizes refer to your supply catalogue.<G> As for the drill size to use? That depends on what kind of pin block you are planning to use. If you use a Nossaman pin block, follow his recommendations. How's the Sound Board? A 1906 pianer would be a bit suspect in that regard. Of course, if you are installing a Nossaman board that would good as well.<G>
Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rob McCall <r...@mccallpiano.com>
>Sent: Jan 8, 2015 10:46 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning pin and drill size
>
>Brian,
>
>I just wasn’t sure if the manufacturer put in larger pins for some complicated torque value reasoning. Or maybe I’m just doing my usual overthinking… :-)
>
>This one is a beauty. Only one family owned. My client is 80 and this was purchased new by his grandfather in 1906 in Boston. He’s restoring it to pass it down to the rest of his family to (hopefully) last another 100 years. It’s at the refinishers right now. Lots of ordering and action work to do for now.
>

>Regards,
>
>Rob McCall
>
>McCall Piano Service, LLC
>www.mccallpiano.com
>Oceanside, CA
>951-698-1875
>

[Joseph Garrett]

Rob,
I would recommend a standard protocol of checking the size of EVERY tuning pin out of the box, before you start putting them in. The sizes vary quite a bit. I usually put the .280" & .281" tuning pins in the treble. The .282" pins in the middle of the piano. And, the .283" & .284" pins in the bass. Yes, they do vary that much! I use a Mitsutoya spring loaded, wide anvil micrometer for that job. It goes quickly with several Dampp-Chaser Humidistat boxes for the various sizes. If you have high acid hands, wear nitrile gloves.<G>

Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Rob McCall <r...@mccallpiano.com>
>Sent: Jan 8, 2015 1:43 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning pin and drill size
>

>I'll try different lengths with my sample and see what they feel like. Just to clarify, Ron, your drilling protocol is for a 2/0 pin?
>

>Regards,
>
>Rob McCall
>
>McCall Piano Service, LLC
>www.mccallpiano.com
>Oceanside, CA
>951-698-1875
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 1/8/2015 6:28 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> Of course, if you are installing a Nossaman board that would good as
> well.

Maybe he doesn't like cookie cutter pianos.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
Ya know, I was trying to be nice and make some suggestions to someone who has not done this stuff before. Instead you have to continue to be a world class asshole.

Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Jan 8, 2015 5:19 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning pin and drill size
>

[Rob McCall]

Joe,

Thanks for your input. If you saw my later email, I corrected myself on the pin size. My bad, I just saw the wrong number on the wrong line on my chart. Yes, I'll be putting in a Nossaman pinblock, and I plan on following his recommendation for drilling and pin size based on years of experience and trial and error. I don't planning on recreating anything right now that I don't have to. :-) I learn quickly, but I'm not an inventor unless I have to be.

As for the soundboard, I thought about it long and hard. The current soundboard is intact, has long sustains, solid ribs without separation, and has a very nice tone to it, without any weird artifacts or buzzes or anything for that matter. I truly believe this piano was way overbuilt for it's day. So the soundboard will get refinished with new decals, etc. along with both bridges being recapped as the base stock is solid.

I didn't want to tear everything out and replace it just for the sake of replacing it. Maybe that comes from my time apprenticing with Bill Shull and his philosophy of conservation, as opposed to wholesale upgrades and replacement. See, Bill? I was listening... at least part of the time, unless we were eating Thai food.. :-)

The piano is a family heirloom and has been well taken care of by all of it's owners, a long line of family members and musicians. In fact, the current owner has a full blown pipe organ installed in his living room. We're talking 20' wide and 12' tall... :-)

You're probably right, I should do the work before the refinishing. The action, back action, and all the various associated parts to be replaced are at my shop and getting worked on while the cabinet is away. My thought was that when it got back, I'd fit the pinblock, drop in the plate, restring it, and finish up the new action. Obviously, that's way oversimplified, but you get the idea. Lots to do, yet most of it will be outside the piano. Additionally, I'm going to pad it up like fort knox when it gets back to avoid any nicks that I can. :-)

While you and Ron sometimes have divergent views, strangely enough, I often understand both of you and your intents. Scares the crap out of me realizing that just now, too. :-) However, I appreciate your direct responses, experience, and honest insight, while at the same time I also appreciate Ron's knowledge, sardonic humor, and the never ending frustration with speculative diatribes.

I'll post more as it progresses. Thanks again!

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Joseph Garrett]

Rob,
It sounds like you are on the right track. You have a well laid out plan imo. The "..pad it up like fort knox" works for me. Good luck, and by all means enjoy the journey.<G>
Best,

Joe



Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----

>From: Rob McCall <r...@mccallpiano.com>
>Sent: Jan 8, 2015 9:46 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning pin and drill size
>

[Terry Farrell]

Good advice from Joe. I would add to check several areas of each pin - many pins are not round!

Terry Farrell

[Terry Farrell]

:-)

[Terry Farrell]

Joe - stop it immediately. Please just stop. Seriously, this is way beyond the pale.

Terry Farrell

On Jan 8, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> Ron,

> Ya know, I was trying to be nice and make some suggestions to someone who has not done this stuff before. Instead you have to continue to be a...... NASTY SNIP
> Joe

[Terry Farrell]

On Jan 9, 2015, at 12:46 AM, Rob McCall wrote:

> Joe,
>
> Thanks for your input. If you saw my later email, I corrected myself on the pin size. My bad, I just saw the wrong number on the wrong line on my chart. Yes, I'll be putting in a Nossaman pinblock, and I plan on following his recommendation for drilling and pin size based on years of experience and trial and error. I don't planning on recreating anything right now that I don't have to. :-) I learn quickly, but I'm not an inventor unless I have to be.

Enjoy the composite block!