Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??

[Michael Magness]

I have a school district about a half hour drive from me that ONLY calls me to do repairs, they have a retired band director who tunes but doesn't know how to do repairs so when a string breaks, hammer shank breaks, key cracks they call me.

The most prevalent repair by far has been broken bass strings on Yamaha P-22's, I have several P-22's that I tune & have NOT had ANY problems with strings breaking. The strings aren't breaking when the pianos are played it's the tuner who is having strings break when he's tuning.

My feeling is perhaps it's time for him to retire from tuning! I am not aware of this being a problem in P-22's, P-202's yes, I have had my share of P-202 strings break but I have NOT experienced the problem in P-22's.

My question is, have I just been lucky? IS this a problem in these pianos or is it, as I suspect, the tuner? I need some backup, second opinion if you will, they think they're doing the guy a favor & saving money(he charges less than me) which they aren't if you factor in the cost of new strings & my time/mileage.

Your answers MAY be printed out & possibly shown to the current Band & Vocal directors so let's be somewhat kind, please? 

Thanks,

Mike

--
  
I think we are a product of all our experiences.
Sanford I. Weill   

Michael Magness
Magness Piano Service
608-786-4404
www.IFixPianos.com
email mi...@ifixpianos.com

[Douglas Gregg]

Can you find out if the strings are breaking at the time of tuning or
during hard playing.

I have heard that some players can break strings on a regular basis
when playing- even at will (Grrrr.). In my own experience, a rather
slight woman choral teacher in the high school has broken two bass
strings on a Samick 5' 8" grand in the last year. She does not do any
tuning so it has to be hard playing. The piano is in good shape
otherwise.

Doug Gregg

> Weill<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/sanfordiw283095.html>

[pno...@aol.com]

P-22's have the tuning pin for note A1 (string #13) below a plate screw and the string angle from the agraffe or nut to the string coil on the tuning pin can be quite severe.  This makes the string bind at the upper termination point.  ( I had many of these strings break before I understood this.)  If I find this situation now, I'll usually back the tuning pin out a turn or two so that the coil is higher above the plate.

 

That's the only string problem I've had on P22's

Gordon Large, RPT
pno...@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Magness <ifix...@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 8:10 pm
Subject: [pianotech] Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??

I have a school district about a half hour drive from me that ONLY calls me to do repairs, they have a retired band director who tunes but doesn't know how to do repairs so when a string breaks, hammer shank breaks, key cracks they call me.

The most prevalent repair by far has been broken bass strings on Yamaha P-22's, I have several P-22's that I tune & have NOT had ANY problems with strings breaking. The strings aren't breaking when the pianos are played it's the tuner who is having strings break when he's tuning.

My feeling is perhaps it's time for him to retire from tuning! I am not aware of this being a problem in P-22's, P-202's yes, I have had my share of P-202 strings break but I have NOT experienced the problem in P-22's.

My question is, have I just been lucky? IS this a problem in these pianos or is it, as I suspect, the tuner? I need some backup, second opinion if you will, they think they're doing the guy a favor & saving money(he charges less than me) which they aren't if you factor in the cost of new strings & my time/mileage.

Your answers MAY be printed out & possibly shown to the current Band & Vocal directors so let's be somewhat kind, please? 

Thanks,

Mike

--
  
I think we are a product of all our experiences.
Sanford I. Weill   

[DavidWB]

In September I tuned a 19-year old P22 that had had so little use that it was almost like new. It was 30-100¢ flat. As I was about to began the pitch raise, I had an uneasy feeling because pressing on the bass strings with my thumb felt that the strings were already at a high tension. That and I had previously seen breakage on the similar P202 model. So, I decided to test pulling up one string, A#1 (pin 14). It snapped before I reached pitch (using a P22 template file on my ETD). I didn't even get to the point of overpulling it.

When I ordered the string from Mapes, I was told that the strings on pins 13 & 14 (A1 & A#1) are the most frequently broken on the P22. BTW, with the customer's understanding that this might not be the only one to break, I proceeded to tune the piano to A440 with no further problem.

After having 3 bass strings break on a P202, I found some consolation in a thread on Yamaha String Breakage in the January 2011 Pianotech archive. I saved a link to it but it is no longer valid. Maybe someone else can provide a link.

David Bauguess

[Mark Wisner]

P22's are a bit prone to string breakage, especially string #13 bass string, as noted in an earlier post.
Are any of the P22's you tune in schools?

Mark Wisner

---

From: Michael Magness <ifix...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 8:10 PM

Subject: [pianotech] Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??

[Geoff Sykes]

>  If I find this situation now, I'll usually back the tuning pin out a turn or two so that the coil is higher above the plate.

This is brilliant. Thanks!

[Paul Milkie]

Turn the pin out until you see the threads on the tuning pin . Most of the pianos I tune are P22's . You will see close to a quarter inch of threads showing on pianos from the factory now on A1 & A#1.

On Nov 11, 2013 10:37 PM, "Geoff Sykes" <sintoni...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Joseph Garrett]

Sigh! When the real problem is the scale! Why, why, why? Defies logic.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Milkie
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 12:45 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??

Turn the pin out until you see the threads on the tuning pin . Most of the
pianos I tune are P22's . You will see close to a quarter inch of threads
showing on pianos from the factory now on A1 & A#1.

On Nov 11, 2013 10:37 PM, "Geoff Sykes" wrote:

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[David Weiss]

What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a damper guide rail?

 

My typical method is to first try Protek, and if that doesn't work I then remove the damper, ream the cloth with my capstan tool, polish the damper wire with steel wool, then re-insert the damper. However this time I need to do that procedure for almost all the dampers a piano. The piano is out of town so I don't want any call backs.

 

The piano is a fairly decent Weinbach medium size grand with a Dampp Chaser system.  Although it is currently in a stable environment, previously it lived in many different places around the world.  The client, now retired, had a career with the Foreign Service and at times had the piano in less than ideal situations.  I see no other problems, except for the perennial tight damper guide rail bushings.   

 

Thanks,

 

David Weiss

 

[Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft]

Can you find out if the strings are breaking at the time of tuning or

during hard playing.

Nov 11, 2013, at 8:16 PM, Douglas Gregg <class...@gmail.com> wrote:

[a4...@aol.com]

You might need to polish wires, and I don't know if the timing would
work, but soaking them with a few drops of VS-profelt and inserting a
#7 bridge pin will usually render them all sized and lubricated. It
will usually leave a little side to side play, which I find useful for
regulating purposes. If you like them tighter, a #6 pin will do that.
I have often mistaken frozen pinning for tight wires…..

Ed Foote RPT

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 2:53 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Sigh! When the real problem is the scale! Why, why, why? Defies logic.

Yamaha certainly has plenty of scaling problems, but this is a tuning
pin field layout failure. Those pins are too close to the bass top
bridge, plate mound, nut, or whatever it's called this week in an email
near you. The result is a too steep takeoff angle from the pin, and the
string rides up on the coil. String breakage is always at the coil.
Drilling the bass for about 10° lean back on the pins would have helped
and been a relatively easy "fix", particularly if they're CNC drilled (I
have no idea if they are, but I think the bridges are). There were a
number of old piano makers of lesser reputation and production volume
(and smaller marketing budgets) that used about an 8mm overlay on the
bass section of the block in their grands, and the plate was cast
accordingly. That, in my opinion, was the right way to do it. I made a
pinblock for someone a while back like this. I don't recall ever seeing
this on a vertical, but I've seen a lot of them that could use it.

So while backing the pin out is an inelegant kludge, it lessens string
breakage in a poor design that should have been fixed many years ago.
Best we can do in the field after the fact.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

David,

My approach, under the circumstances you've outlined is to almost start from scratch. I'd drag my damper holding apparatus to the site. (It clamps to both sides of the piano w/a flat slat with many holes drilled into it. Has a raised center to hold the damper felt off of the "flat slat".)  Remove all of the dampers. Check all of the pinning of the back action. Polish the damper wires, (NOT with steel wool!), with Nev R Dull or Flitz/soft cotton cloth...wipe dry to a high shine.

 I have several different sized "T" shaped Broach/Reamers that I made out of different diameters of steel. Made in the fashion as the bushing Broach/Reamers design by Don Mannino. The main shaft is about 6" long with a gradual point and highly polished.1/2 of the way up the shaft(s) I "knurled" the shaft with a bastard file to make the reaming part. I seldom need to use the reaming part, as the burnishing part usually does the trick. If I have an extreme situation I will heat the lower shaft on an alcohol lamp and iron all of the  bushings. Since there are different sizes of damper wires I have 3-4 of these tools. I've made them, over the years, when the specific need arose. They reside in my shop. When doing field work, I just grab them all.<G>

Once the bushings have been properly sized, re-insert and regulate the entire set of dampers. Shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours total. Doing it this way, "call-backs" have not reared their ugly head...((knock on good wood)).

Hope that helps

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: David Weiss
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 2:09 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a damper guide rail?



My typical method is to first try Protek, and if that doesn't work I then remove the damper, ream the cloth with my capstan tool, polish the damper wire with steel wool, then re-insert the damper. However this time I need to do that procedure for almost all the dampers a piano. The piano is out of town so I don't want any call backs.



The piano is a fairly decent Weinbach medium size grand with a Dampp Chaser system. Although it is currently in a stable environment, previously it lived in many different places around the world. The client, now retired, had a career with the Foreign Service and at times had the piano in less than ideal situations. I see no other problems, except for the perennial tight damper guide rail bushings.



Thanks,



David Weiss

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
Agreed. However, I think it is a multi-faceted problem. String Tension is on the upper end of safety. The close proximity of the pins to the Nut, (upper bridge), that creates a steep angle. The angle of the strings going from tuning pin to the Nut and then into the speaking length.
Most of the breaking point, I've noted, if done while playing, occurs at the Nut pin. If the breakage occurs while tuning, it usually occurs at the tuning pin coil. I think ALL of the pianos of that size, in the Yamaha stable have this problem to some degree. (P2, P22 & P202) In the later, we have a new thing mixed to the problem: poor plate finishing and poor workmanship, imo.
Best,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2013 8:02 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 11:04 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, Agreed. However, I think it is a multi-faceted problem. String
> Tension is on the upper end of safety. The close proximity of the
> pins to the Nut, (upper bridge), that creates a steep angle. The
> angle of the strings going from tuning pin to the Nut and then into
> the speaking length. Most of the breaking point, I've noted, if done
> while playing, occurs at the Nut pin. If the breakage occurs while
> tuning, it usually occurs at the tuning pin coil. I think ALL of the
> pianos of that size, in the Yamaha stable have this problem to some
> degree. (P2, P22 & P202)

----------------------------------------------------

> In the later, we have a new thing mixed to
> the problem: poor plate finishing and poor workmanship, imo.

Which has nothing to do with string breakage.


I've not seen breakage there anywhere but at the coil. Sheltered life, I
suppose. But then a break% of 70% isn't uncommon in Yamaha wrapped
strings, and other Yamahas with similarly psychotic scaling don't have
string breakage problems in a specific spot, that I'm aware of. Do they?
If that takeoff angle were reasonable, as is more nearly achieved by
backing the pin out, the problem would go away, and indeed seems to. As
much grief as Arledge gave me, when I used to use him, about specing
strings up to 55% break, I can't help but wonder what he does when
someone wants a Yamaha string set duplicated. Or any other string maker,
for that matter. Anyone been there?
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2013 9:20 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings??
>

>On 11/12/2013 11:04 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>> Ron, Agreed. However, I think it is a multi-faceted problem. String
>> Tension is on the upper end of safety. The close proximity of the
>> pins to the Nut, (upper bridge), that creates a steep angle. The
>> angle of the strings going from tuning pin to the Nut and then into
>> the speaking length. Most of the breaking point, I've noted, if done
>> while playing, occurs at the Nut pin. If the breakage occurs while
>> tuning, it usually occurs at the tuning pin coil. I think ALL of the
>> pianos of that size, in the Yamaha stable have this problem to some
>> degree. (P2, P22 & P202)
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>
>> In the later, we have a new thing mixed to
>> the problem: poor plate finishing and poor workmanship, imo.
>
>Which has nothing to do with string breakage.

IMO, the rough surface of the Nut area, where the string sits, certainly would add to the friction and the breakage.

>
>
>I've not seen breakage there anywhere but at the coil. Sheltered life, I
>suppose. But then a break% of 70% isn't uncommon in Yamaha wrapped
>strings, and other Yamahas with similarly psychotic scaling don't have
>string breakage problems in a specific spot, that I'm aware of. Do they?
>If that takeoff angle were reasonable, as is more nearly achieved by
>backing the pin out, the problem would go away, and indeed seems to. As
>much grief as Arledge gave me, when I used to use him, about specing
>strings up to 55% break, I can't help but wonder what he does when
>someone wants a Yamaha string set duplicated. Or any other string maker,
>for that matter. Anyone been there?
>Ron N

My usual approach is a re-design of the wound strings and raisng the tuning pins/lowering the string angle however.<G> Of course, all of that depends on whether the client wants a permanent repair or not.<G>
Best,
Joe

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 11:47 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

>>> In the later, we have a new thing mixed to the problem: poor
>>> plate finishing and poor workmanship, imo.
>>
>> Which has nothing to do with string breakage.
>
> IMO, the rough surface of the Nut area, where the string sits,
> certainly would add to the friction and the breakage.

Which doesn't address the stated problem of breakage at the coil.

>> Or any other string maker, for that matter. Anyone been
>> there? Ron N
> My usual approach is a re-design of the wound strings and raisng the
> tuning pins/lowering the string angle however.<G> Of course, all of
> that depends on whether the client wants a permanent repair or
> not.<G> Best, Joe

I'm happy for you, however you manage to lessen the angle other than
BACKING OUT THE PIN.
Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

I'm seeing this happen far too frequently lately and I just have to speak out. Please, people. If you want to start a new topic DON'T just tack it on to an existing unrelated thread. You will get MUCH more attention and feedback if you start a NEW thread. 

[tnr...@aol.com]

David

 

Are you absolutely sure the problem is with the damper guide rail? My experience has been that the reason for sluggish dampers is often related to tight damper flange centers. Obviously it's easier to ease the guide rail. But be prepared to remove the back action to properly ease the centers. It will take a lot longer to do that, but still better than a call back.

 

Wim

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Weiss <david...@embarqmail.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:09 am
Subject: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

[Jon Page]

You can make an easing tool out of an umbrella stave. Point the end and it fits around the wire and presses the felt outwards.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 4:09 AM, David Weiss wrote:
> What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a
> damper guide rail?

First, check the side pressure. That might be all it is. If not, since
most of them are having the problem, plan on pulling all of the dampers.
With the dampers out, pull the back action and check the pinning there.
Fix that if necessary, and reinstall. Clean the damper wires with Flitz
or similar. Pull the guide rails and put #7 bridge pins in all the
bushings. As suggested, use VS Profelt, or alcohol/water mix to shrink
and stabilize the bushings. The Profelt also lubricates, so may be a
better choice, but alcohol/water will work. Dry with a hair dryer or low
range heat gun until the bridge pins get nearly loose enough to fall
out. Reinstall dampers, being aware of side bearing as you adjust them.
It then should be good for as long as anything else in the piano except
the totally unrelated squeak that will surely manifest spontaneously
next month and make you look bad.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Hmmm? must have major bug up your butt. All of the below commentary is relevant to the damned subject!

Sheesh!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 10:18 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Cc: david...@embarqmail.com
Subject: [pianotech] Re: tight damper guide rail bushings

I'm seeing this happen far too frequently lately and I just have to speak
out. Please, people. If you want to start a new topic DON'T just tack it on
to an existing unrelated thread. You will get MUCH more attention and
feedback if you start a NEW thread.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:09:07 AM UTC-8, David Weiss wrote:
>
> What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a
> damper guide rail?
>
>
>

> My typical method is to first try Protek, and if that doesn't work I then
> remove the damper, ream the cloth with my capstan tool, polish the damper
> wire with steel wool, then re-insert the damper. However this time I need
> to do that procedure for almost all the dampers a piano. The piano is out
> of town so I don't want any call backs.
>
>
>
> The piano is a fairly decent Weinbach medium size grand with a Dampp
> Chaser system. Although it is currently in a stable environment,
> previously it lived in many different places around the world. The client,
> now retired, had a career with the Foreign Service and at times had the
> piano in less than ideal situations. I see no other problems, except for
> the perennial tight damper guide rail bushings.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> David Weiss
>
>
>

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

Jon,

Imo, pretty much worthless tool! Does a good job of snagging the felt and ejecting it. It is probably good enough for an occasional where you need to do a quick and dirty/ hail mary sort of thing. I liken that tool to the bushing/key masher/tightener.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 10:40 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Cc: david...@embarqmail.com
Subject: [pianotech] Re: tight damper guide rail bushings

You can make an easing tool out of an umbrella stave. Point the end and it
fits around the wire and presses the felt outwards.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:07 AM UTC-5, David Weiss wrote:
>
> What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a
> damper guide rail?
>

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[David Weiss]

Thanks for the reply. How long does the cloth need to soak in the Profelt?
I've also considered ironing the felt with a heated #7 bridge pin. Anyone have thoughts on that method?

Sent from my iPhone

[Joseph Garrett]

Yes, much like I suggested in a past post. However, that ASSUMES that all damper wires will fall in the dimensional category of #7 bridge pins. Personally, the fit is just a bit sloppy for most I've encountered & my taste.
Best,
Joe

[David Weiss]

Joe,

 

Thanks for the detailed response.  I'm glad to have a clear plan of action.

 

William, I saw this piano about a year ago and did check the damper flange centers, the problem was clearly in the bushings.

 

David

 

 

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett

Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:48 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

[Geoff Sykes]

Actually, it's a pipe, but I digress. And, I apologize for failing to understand the relationship between string breakage on a P22 and easing tight bushings on a damper rail. 

[tnr...@aol.com]

Geoff

 

If the damper issue was listed on the same posts as the P22 posts, I could see the reasoning for your post.

 

But, at least in my inbox, the damper guide rail post was separate from the P22 posts.

 

Just sayin'

 

Wim

[paul bruesch]

Apparently when someone changes the subject on a thread in email, it still stays threaded under the original subject in the googlegroups web/forum. I imagine that's where Geoff is coming from on this. It baffled me for a little while until I went and looked in the forum.

Geoff, I can't be certain, but I'd bet that most of us participate in this group by email. It's a typical google inconsistency that gmail (google email) will re-thread with the new value in the subject, but not in its own googlegroups. Right hand, meet left. Sheesh! 

[Geoff Sykes]

I participate online via Google Groups. Replying to an email synopsis of newly posted messages, and simply changing the subject line does not automatically start a new thread. In order to start a new thread via email you have to send in a fresh new email to the group with the new subject line. I now understand why I'm seeing so many threads appearing multiple times in the group. Thanks.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 7:42 PM, paul bruesch wrote:
> Apparently when someone changes the subject on a thread in email, it
> still stays threaded under the original subject in the googlegroups
> web/forum. I imagine that's where Geoff is coming from on this. It
> baffled me for a little while until I went and looked in the forum.

Huh? I just changed the subject on a reply in email, and it came to me
with the changed subject as I wrote it. Doesn't it do that in the on
line forum? I guess I just never understood the preoccupation with
threading, since I look at the message subject and it changes when
someone changes it. Unless it doesn't change with forum users.

???
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 8:05 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> I participate online via Google Groups. Replying to an email synopsis of
> newly posted messages, and simply changing the subject line does not
> automatically start a new thread. In order to start a new thread via
> email you have to send in a fresh new email to the group with the new
> subject line. I now understand why I'm seeing so many threads appearing
> multiple times in the group. Thanks.

Does the subject line change in the post?
Ron N

[paul bruesch]

That is what I hypothesized, and Geoff confirmed.

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile on my iPad mini

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 8:19 PM, paul bruesch wrote:
> That is what I hypothesized, and Geoff confirmed.

He said threading, whatever that is. Then the subject doesn't change in
the message when it's changed from google groups?
Ron N

[paul bruesch]

I don't use google groups from the web interface, so I don't know. Geoff?

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Ron Nossaman wrote:

[Larry Fisher RPT]

Hi David, amongst other responses I thus far haven't seen anyone suggest making sure the damper wire is aligned with the hole.  If it's binding because it's pressing on one side or the other, or traveling in some way other than directly and truly in line with the intended direction of travel, it could bind.  Creating more space in the damper guide rail hole could make things worse.  (rattling damper heads) 

 

To eliminate this properly, I remove the wire from the underlever and let the damper fall freely in the hole by itself.  If it moves through the hole with some guidance yet freely, that's where you want to be.

 

After achieving this, I re-mount it back in the underlever and very delicately watch it move up and down looking for pressure side to side or angular travel.  Once I've identified the erroneous motion, if any, I bend the wire gently until I've achieved the proper results. 

 

There's been times I've simply shined up the wire with steel wool and that took care of the problem.  In most cases not involving binding action centers, I've simply aligned the travel with the hole and have had terrific results. 

 

I've never owned an umbrella tool.  If ya really want to butcher a damper guide rail hole, glue some sand on a round toothpick and have at it.  I've never lubed a guide hole with any liquid lube.  I've had limited success with Teflon powder but I only do that to see if that will do the trick.  If not, I then know I have to do some surgery.

 

After rebushing a damper guide rail I use a bridge pin of appropriate size to hold and size the bushing while the glue is drying.

 

Damper work is delicate work.  I know the concept of actually seeing anything in there with bifocals is truly a pain in the neck and I've eaten plenty of polyester doing so but my knees will tell you that damper work on grands is an exercise in patience and finesse. 

 

Once you've cleared the alignment hurdle on a grand damper action, you can tackle dampening with far better results.  A loose guide will generate flakey results at times with the damper head landing in a slightly different location each time.  Now add trichord felt and watch your frustrations grow as the felt SOMETIMES folds over and won't go between the strings  ..........  but only sometimes  .........  and only on pianos that are a long way from home, owned by highly talented and spirited piano players  .............   down a dirt road  ............  in the middle of a swamp   ...............  full of gators and spiders the size of Godzilla.  I watched this happen through a hole in a barbed wire fence  ........  with my blind eye!!  It's real man!!

[Joseph Garrett]

Ah! Was not aware of such. Of course it's 'puter stuff, so it's "complicated".<G>

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: paul bruesch
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 5:42 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: tight damper guide rail bushings

Apparently when someone changes the subject on a thread in email, it still
stays threaded under the original subject in the googlegroups web/forum. I
imagine that's where Geoff is coming from on this. It baffled me for a
little while until I went and looked in the forum.

Geoff, I can't be certain, but I'd bet that most of us participate in this
group by email. It's a typical google inconsistency that gmail (google
email) will re-thread with the new value in the subject, but not in its own
googlegroups. Right hand, meet left. Sheesh!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Sykes
> To: pianotech
> Cc: Joseph Garrett ; joegarrett <
> joega...@earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:30 pm
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: tight damper guide rail bushings
>
> Actually, it's a pipe, but I digress. And, I apologize for failing to
> understand the relationship between string breakage on a P22 and easing
> tight bushings on a damper rail.
>

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Geoff Sykes]

If your participation in this, or any Google Group, is via email then you likely receive one email that contains all the subjects, and the responses to them, as a single message that contains all the new stuff since the last email you received. Online, however, say I start a subject and name it What Do I Do?. If you wanted to read what I wrote you would open that subject header and read what I wrote. If you wanted to reply to what I wrote, your response would appear under that subject heading only. That subject heading would contain only the replies to both original sender and others that participated in a tree kind of hierarchy. This collection of communications under that subject heading is called a thread. You follow the thread from it's start to it's end. If any of you have ever visited the MyPTG Forums it clumsily illustrates all the subjects and their tree composition so you see who responded to who. The difference between the MyPTG Forum and the Google Groups forums is that all that tree hierarchy is invisible and you just get the messages is an easy to follow threat.

Now, if you were to read my subject thread, What Do I Do? and suddenly get an idea for a post, changing the subject line in your reply to that thread only has the effect of posting another entry into the What Do I Do? thread only YOUR posting has a new subject line for your new topic, that has nothing to do with the thread I started. That's why if you want to start a NEW subject via email you need to create a new email with that subject line and post it as a new entry. Otherwise it's just buried in the subject thread of someone else. Now, I understand that if you are only seeing these posts via emails, then as far as you can tell there IS ONLY one thread and every email you receive just posts all of them. 

I know I'm about as far as you can get on being off topic in this particular thread originally titled Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings, but we are now in a SUB subject within the Yamaha P-22's Breaking Bass Strings thread with a sub subject line of Tight Damper Guide Rail Bushings. The gist of this is that if you don't start new subjects as new threads, everyone who participates online and is not interested in P-22's will never see the sub thread on damper bushings that they may be interested in. Does this help explain anything? 

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 10:48 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> If your participation in this, or any Google Group, is via email then
> you likely receive one email that contains all the subjects, and the
> responses to them, as a single message that contains all the new stuff
> since the last email you received.

No, each post comes separately, just like the old list. There is no
"threading" nor any attempt by the software to think for us. Just a
collection of separate posts, related only by the subject in the header.
Each "get mail" download brings everything new since the last download.
It's just like the individual posted to us each privately. We're left to
our own devices to provide whatever organization we require. Simple,
straightforward, sensible, and understandable.

> Online, however, say I start a
> subject and name it What Do I Do?. If you wanted to read what I wrote
> you would open that subject header and read what I wrote. If you wanted
> to reply to what I wrote, your response would appear under that subject
> heading only. That subject heading would contain only the replies to
> both original sender and others that participated in a tree kind of
> hierarchy. This collection of communications under that subject heading
> is called a thread. You follow the thread from it's start to it's end.
> If any of you have ever visited the MyPTG Forums it clumsily illustrates
> all the subjects and their tree composition so you see who responded to
> who. The difference between the MyPTG Forum and the Google Groups forums
> is that all that tree hierarchy is invisible and you just get the
> messages is an easy to follow threat.

Yea, easy... I'll stick with email.

> The gist of this is that if you don't start new subjects as
> new threads, everyone who participates online and is not interested in
> P-22's will never see the sub thread on damper bushings that they may be
> interested in.

But I do. Any change of subject I post has a new title, like this one.

Does this help explain anything?

Not really, sorry. I certainly don't see anything desirable about
trafficking online when it is so arbitrary and cumbersome.
Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

You still have to start a new subject with a new email. Replying, even if you change the subject line, still attaches it to the original subject line to which you replied.

On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, ifixpiano wrote:

I have a school district about a half hour drive from me that ONLY calls me to do repairs, they have a retired band director who tunes but doesn't know how to do repairs so when a string breaks, hammer shank breaks, key cracks they call me.

The most prevalent repair by far has been broken bass strings on Yamaha P-22's, I have several P-22's that I tune & have NOT had ANY problems with strings breaking. The strings aren't breaking when the pianos are played it's the tuner who is having strings break when he's tuning.

My feeling is perhaps it's time for him to retire from tuning! I am not aware of this being a problem in P-22's, P-202's yes, I have had my share of P-202 strings break but I have NOT experienced the problem in P-22's.

My question is, have I just been lucky? IS this a problem in these pianos or is it, as I suspect, the tuner? I need some backup, second opinion if you will, they think they're doing the guy a favor & saving money(he charges less than me) which they aren't if you factor in the cost of new strings & my time/mileage.

Your answers MAY be printed out & possibly shown to the current Band & Vocal directors so let's be somewhat kind, please? 

Thanks,

Mike

--
  
I think we are a product of all our experiences.
Sanford I. Weill   

Michael Magness
Magness Piano Service
608-786-4404
www.IFixPianos.com
email mi...@ifixpianos.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/12/2013 11:24 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> You still have to start a new subject with a new email. Replying, even
> if you change the subject line, still attaches it to the original
> subject line to which you replied.

Not in email. It comes back just as I sent it, just as it should, with
the changed subject. It's the forum software, as usual, that's broken.
Email works fine.
Ron N

[Michael Magness]

Thanks to you all, 

In answer to the person who asked, the strings are ONLY breaking when he tunes, the most recent broken strings are in the mid-range of the bass section, #29.

In answer to the question are the P-22's I tune in schools, yes most of them, I have perhaps 2 or 3 in homes, the rest perhaps 12-15 are in schools & churches.

Sorry I haven't checked in sooner. 

All day job yesterday, easing keys & regulating a Young Chang Studio, EVERY key needed to be reamed first, all had too much wood left at the balance rail hole!

Added an hour & a half to the job!

Thanks for all of your comments, I have noticed the steep angle of the coil to nut, similar to some of the old Aoleian consoles that had the pins crowded into a short area so the string almost doubled back on itself after it passed over the nut to connect to the tuning pin!

[Geoff Sykes]

OK, fine. Live in a vacuum.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/13/2013 12:46 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> OK, fine. Live in a vacuum.

Why is it incumbent on me to comply with your preference, rather than
you complying with mine and the other email users? Who has their head in
the sand here, and lives in a vacuum?
Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

(- sigh -)

See my reply to your NEW message about this subject. I hope it helps clear things up. This forum is like a new tool that, through the intentional limits of email, you are unintentionally able to make work like the old tool. But by not following the rules you are forcing others to miss out on content and discussions that are being accidentally buried in unrelated conversations because you insist on using this forum like an old listserver. 

Thank you for starting a new thread on this subject. By doing so you have enabled EVERYONE who participates in this group to see it and not just those that participate via email only and don't know the subject is currently buried inside a discussion with a topic of Yamaha P-22 String Breakage. Seriously, thank you.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/13/2013 1:19 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> (- sigh -)
>
> See my reply to your NEW message about this subject. I hope it helps
> clear things up.

I'm not confused or disoriented. I understand the "problem". As I said,
why is it incumbent on me to conform to forum requirements rather than
the forum to accommodate the email functionality it ostensibly offers?

> This forum is like a new tool that, through the
> intentional limits of email, you are unintentionally able to make work
> like the old tool.

If I bought a new tool like this, I'd pitch it, or modify it into
something useful and functional.

> But by not following the rules you are forcing others
> to miss out on content and discussions that are being accidentally
> buried in unrelated conversations because you insist on using this forum
> like an old listserver.

That's exactly what it was intended to replace. The forum is the
crippled child. And I'm not forcing anyone to miss anything. If they
read all the posts as I do, they will get all the information. By
allowing threading to limit them, they're making that decision
themselves. They also have the option to switch to email and use
smoothly functioning software, if they are interested.

> Thank you for starting a new thread on this subject.

I didn't, by the forum's definition. I added "changed subject" to an
existing email and sent it. Apparently, the forum "rules" are capricious
as well as arbitrary.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Please stop this INANE BULLSHIT!

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2013 11:55 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com

[Geoff Sykes]

You are correct. The battle is over and both sides have lost.

[David Weiss]

Joe,

 

Where can I get the thin steel rods needed to make the broach/reamers needed for the damper guide bushings?  I tried my big box hardware and hobby shops, struck out at both.

 

Thanks,

 

David Weiss

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett

Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:48 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

 

David,

My approach, under the circumstances you've outlined is to almost start from scratch. I'd drag my damper holding apparatus to the site. (It clamps to both sides of the piano w/a flat slat with many holes drilled into it. Has a raised center to hold the damper felt off of the "flat slat".)  Remove all of the dampers. Check all of the pinning of the back action. Polish the damper wires, (NOT with steel wool!), with Nev R Dull or Flitz/soft cotton cloth...wipe dry to a high shine.

 I have several different sized "T" shaped Broach/Reamers that I made out of different diameters of steel. Made in the fashion as the bushing Broach/Reamers design by Don Mannino. The main shaft is about 6" long with a gradual point and highly polished.1/2 of the way up the shaft(s) I "knurled" the shaft with a bastard file to make the reaming part. I seldom need to use the reaming part, as the burnishing part usually does the trick. If I have an extreme situation I will heat the lower shaft on an alcohol lamp and iron all of the  bushings. Since there are different sizes of damper wires I have 3-4 of these tools. I've made them, over the years, when the specific need arose. They reside in my shop. When doing field work, I just grab them all.<G>

Once the bushings have been properly sized, re-insert and regulate the entire set of dampers. Shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours total. Doing it this way, "call-backs" have not reared their ugly head...((knock on good wood)).

Hope that helps

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: David Weiss
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 2:09 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a damper guide rail?



My typical method is to first try Protek, and if that doesn't work I then remove the damper, ream the cloth with my capstan tool, polish the damper wire with steel wool, then re-insert the damper. However this time I need to do that procedure for almost all the dampers a piano. The piano is out of town so I don't want any call backs.



The piano is a fairly decent Weinbach medium size grand with a Dampp Chaser system. Although it is currently in a stable environment, previously it lived in many different places around the world. The client, now retired, had a career with the Foreign Service and at times had the piano in less than ideal situations. I see no other problems, except for the perennial tight damper guide rail bushings.



Thanks,



David Weiss

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/14/2013 7:22 PM, David Weiss wrote:
> Joe,
>
> Where can I get the thin steel rods needed to make the broach/reamers
> needed for the damper guide bushings? I tried my big box hardware and
> hobby shops, struck out at both.

Joe may have an easy out for you, but one thing I've done is prospect
through the closets finding two or three coat hangers with wire just a
bit bigger than the damper wire. Sorry, no measurement. In my case, it
was strictly a seat of the pants sort of thing. Pointing a length of
each size on a grinder, and sanding off the paint with some 100 or so
grit sandpaper, I tried each in the bushing one felt right. Just a
little drag. Run the moto tool with the wire in the bushing, and the
friction heats the wire up in ten seconds or so, ironing the bushing.
Once the wire is heated up, you can move quickly from one bushing to the
next, lingering in each one a couple of seconds. Worked for me at the time.
Ron N

[John Ross]

I have used bicycle spokes to make some stuff in the past.

I was making something for a missing part on an old english grand that had some missing dampers.

Many years ago.

John Ross

Windsor, Nova Scotia

[Joseph Garrett]

David,

I'm suprised you couldn't find them at the Hobby Shop! Try Ace Hardware, they always have a display of various sizes of steel, brass and aluminum. The sizes that I have are: .078", .086", .095", .096" & .120". The one that I use the most is the .095". The others were for special applications and such. The first, second and fourth are the sizes of #6, #7 & #8 bridge pins, fyi.<G>

If the Hobby Store and Ace don't have what you need, then I'd suggest a high-end, long time in business, for real Hardware Store! Or,...the internet.

Best,

Joe 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Weiss

Sent: Nov 14, 2013 5:22 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

Joe,



Where can I get the thin steel rods needed to make the broach/reamers needed for the damper guide bushings? I tried my big box hardware and hobby shops, struck out at both.

Thanks,



David Weiss



From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:48 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings



David,

My approach, under the circumstances you've outlined is to almost start from scratch. I'd drag my damper holding apparatus to the site. (It clamps to both sides of the piano w/a flat slat with many holes drilled into it. Has a raised center to hold the damper felt off of the "flat slat".) Remove all of the dampers. Check all of the pinning of the back action. Polish the damper wires, (NOT with steel wool!), with Nev R Dull or Flitz/soft cotton cloth...wipe dry to a high shine.

I have several different sized "T" shaped Broach/Reamers that I made out of different diameters of steel. Made in the fashion as the bushing Broach/Reamers design by Don Mannino. The main shaft is about 6" long with a gradual point and highly polished.1/2 of the way up the shaft(s) I "knurled" the shaft with a bastard file to make the reaming part. I seldom need to use the reaming part, as the burnishing part usually does the trick. If I have an extreme situation I will heat the lower shaft on an alcohol lamp and iron all of the bushings. Since there are different sizes of damper wires I have 3-4 of these tools. I've made them, over the years, when the specific need arose. They reside in my shop. When doing field work, I just grab them all.

Once the bushings have been properly sized, re-insert and regulate the entire set of dampers. Shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours total. Doing it this way, "call-backs" have not reared their ugly head...((knock on good wood)).

Hope that helps

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: David Weiss
Sent: Nov 12, 2013 2:09 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

What are peoples preferred methods for easing tight bushing cloth in a damper guide rail?



My typical method is to first try Protek, and if that doesn't work I then remove the damper, ream the cloth with my capstan tool, polish the damper wire with steel wool, then re-insert the damper. However this time I need to do that procedure for almost all the dampers a piano. The piano is out of town so I don't want any call backs.



The piano is a fairly decent Weinbach medium size grand with a Dampp Chaser system. Although it is currently in a stable environment, previously it lived in many different places around the world. The client, now retired, had a career with the Foreign Service and at times had the piano in less than ideal situations. I see no other problems, except for the perennial tight damper guide rail bushings.



Thanks,



David Weiss






Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/14/2013 9:17 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> If the Hobby Store and Ace don't have what you need, then I'd suggest a
> high-end, long time in business, for real Hardware Store! Or,...the
> internet.

The wire, brass tubing, sheet brass, etc in the usual display is from
K&S Engineering. Google that.
Ron N

[David Weiss]

It's proving to be not so easy to get the metal rods in the sizes I need for reaming the damper guide bushings. Locally I can't find them, hardware and craft stores have 1/8" and up. They're on the internet, but most sites sell them in packages of 10 or more, and each package is over $10. I'll keep poking around the internet, to see if I can find anyone selling an assortment, or smaller less expensive packages.

I have some damper wire in my shop that I could use to make a reamer, but I only have one size and I don't know what size the damper wire is the Weinbach I have to repair. I was thinking what else I could use, and saw some wire mutes laying nearby. I have quite an assortment and they are all around the sizes I need. Could work.

So many people who responded said most of the time the problem is the flange or the wire bend, that now doubt of my diagnosis is settling in. I saw this piano 6 months ago, and about half the dampers were sluggish. I removed one sluggish damper, and lifted and dropped the damper flange, also felt for resistance. It seemed fine. Then I put Protek on the damper guide rail bushings, and the dampers immediately started working fine. So I concluded it was bushing problem and moved on. I didn't check the wire bend, just didn't think of it at the time. Now I'm asking myself how carefully I checked the flange. Was I in a hurry, distracted, having an off day?

If it’s the bend, should be an easy fix, if it is the flanges, not so good. I hate when I give an estimate and then have to come back with bad news. But if the back action requires repining....

Scheduled for Friday of this week.

David Weiss

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:35 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] tight damper guide rail bushings

[Isaac OLEG]

a vertical piano damper blade does it fine for some grands. Obviously will not be perfect for all but it helped me. Talcum can be used on the hot rod, while I am unsure it is useful.