muting a grand piano

[Mike Spalding]

List,

A tuning client has a grand piano in her apartment, and wants to mute it
so it doesn't disturb her neighbors. I gave her some generic advice,
and she responded with some detailed questions which go way beyond my
knowledge/experience. Can you help me out?

"Thank you very much for the advice. I'm on a hunt for suitable
sound-absorbing supplies. So far I plan on acquiring a set of Piattino
caster cups from Germany which have received alot of very positive
feedback. I have already implemented some of your other suggestions,
but will probably pile on as many of the "home remedies" as I can.

Do you have any advice as to whether I ought to invest in acoustic foam,
or whether any plain old egg-carton foam will do? Also, for under a
floor rug, will felt padding underneath be sufficient, or do you suggest
specially made acoustic material for the floor as well?"

thanks for your help

Mike

[Adrian Thomas]

Have a look at http://carolrpt.com/baffles.htm . Not sure how good they are or if they affect the sound too much, but it's worth looking at.

Adrian Thomas

[paul bruesch]

I fully expected a few people to chime in about the aftermarket grand piano mute rail. I don't have specifics available (such as where to get it) so I've kept quiet (muted, if you will...)  Try googling for it.

Paul Bruesch

Stillwater, MN

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Mike Spalding <mike.sp...@frontier.com> wrote:

List,

A tuning client has a grand piano in her apartment, and wants to mute it so it doesn't disturb her neighbors.  I gave her some generic advice, and she responded with some detailed questions which go way beyond my knowledge/experience.  Can you help me out?

"Thank you very much for the advice.  I'm on a hunt for suitable sound-absorbing supplies.  So far I plan on acquiring a set of Piattino caster cups from Germany which have received a lot of very positive feedback.  I have already implemented some of your other suggestions, but will probably pile on as many of the "home remedies" as I can.

[tnr...@aol.com]

Some people seem to think a piano has a volume control, that can be lowered to almost no sound. No matter how much sound absorbing stuff you put in and around a piano, it's still going to be heard beyond the room it's in. The customer should learn to play a little softer, and be respectful of neighbors when playing. (not at odd hours).

 

Wim

[Joseph Garrett]

OOOrrrr, get an electronic keyboard with headphones for those "odd hours". Let's face it inspiration can strike at any time of the day or night.<G>

Best,

Joe

 

[David Weiss]

Hi Mike,

I have used the acoustic baffles a number of times and they do not provide
much muting. I would say a 10% reduction, barely noticeable.

I have also installed the "Grand Piano Muffler" It works great, it's
similar to the practice mute on an upright. However the installation is
time consuming, anywhere from 4 to 6 hours. Steven James makes and sells
the Grand Piano Muffler, he gives great support and has YouTube videos
showing the installation procedure.

Another thing I've done in the category of quick and dirty is to just mute
off 1 string from each trichord. I do that with my personal piano, after a
day of tuning I like a quiet piano.

The thing I never do is suggest an electric keyboard, I've spent too much
life energy promoting the piano.

Here's the link for Grand Piano Muffler:
http://www.grandpianomuffler.com/GrandPianoMuffler/Welcome.html

David Weiss

[Mike Spalding]

Thanks, everyone who replied, for your suggestions. I'll pass them on
and see what she wants to do.

Mike

[David Renaud]

I made up some "mutes" for a client by taking some hardwood and cutting it to size to sit between struts and span each a section of strings. I glued some thick light fluffy wool to the bottom. Added
A little weight to the top(strip of wood with some lead in it), that also acts as a handle. Placing the weighted felts onto the strings does mute the sound noticeable amount for playing at night.

...... Before people jump on this, yes it was an experiment, and its very cheap to do, and completely unobtrusive to the piano. I expected it to mute more then it does actually, but it did provide a definitely clear reduction in volume, and also decrease sustain. Not as much as I expected , perhaps more weight would have a greater effect, but enough for the client to find it useful.

Cheers
Dave Renaud

Sent from my iPad

[fredsch...@gmail.com]

Dave,

 

If you make it from something soft it will stop the sound more efficiently.  I use long thin bean bags to mute the duplex and such when tuning, and it will make the piano sound very plunky and quiet.

 

Don Mannino RPT
via Windows 8

 

[Joseph Garrett]

Don,

What are the "bean bags" filled with? (I'll have to assume NOT beans<G>) Second question: Where do you get these "bean bags"?

Best,

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

[Dean May]

Come on, Don, tell us why your posts are showing up as Fred Schwartz. :-)

[Joseph Garrett]

It's his evil, step brother! brahahahha!

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dean May

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/11/2013 10:16:23 AM

Subject: Re: [ptech] muting a grand piano

[fredsch...@gmail.com]

Joe,

 

You can fill them with beans as long as they stay dry.  I have used silica gel from those bags in the pianos, which did work well to keep my toolbox dry.  But they tend to grind down and become powder after while, so I changed to plastic beads, available in craft stores.

 

My wife sews them up for me.

 

Don Mannino RPT
via Windows 8

 

From: Joseph Garrett
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎April‎ ‎11‎, ‎2013 ‎8‎:‎30‎ ‎AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

 

Don,

What are the "bean bags" filled with? (I'll have to assume NOT beans<G>) Second question: Where do you get these "bean bags"?

Best,

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/11/2013 8:11:43 AM

Subject: Re: [ptech] muting a grand piano

Dave,

 

If you make it from something soft it will stop the sound more efficiently.  I use long thin bean bags to mute the duplex and such when tuning, and it will make the piano sound very plunky and quiet.

 

Don Mannino RPT
via Windows 8

 

From: David Renaud
Sent: b

[Joseph Garrett]

Don,

Thanks for the info. Not having a "sewing wife" I guess I'll find a seamstress some where.<G>

[paul bruesch]

Joe,

Sewing Machine = Tool

Paul

[Joseph Garrett]

Paul,

Yes,...sigh! I used to help repair them when I was in highschool. I do know how...er...sorta..to run one, but find that fingers being sewn to whatever, is not a fun thing. So, ...I'll find a seamstress. There are some things best left to the experts.<G>

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From: paul bruesch

To: pianotech

Sent: 4/11/2013 5:38:48 PM

Subject: Re: [ptech] muting a grand piano

[fredsch...@gmail.com]

So, Joe, are you going to be at MARC next week?

 

It so happens that my lovely wife made a few extra sets last time, and there is one more set available for a lucky buyer.  $20 for a set of three: 10”, 12”, 14”

 

Or you could drive up to Boston and pick the set up at the North Bennet Street School, where I will be a week from Monday / Tuesday.

 

Let me know and I’ll bring them with me.  I find them very handy for muting noisy things during tuning, or troubleshooting mystery sympathetic ringing, leaking dampers, etc.

[Joseph Garrett]

Don,

A bit far for me to go. I know that the MARC's are good, but 3500 miles is a bit of a stretch.<G> Perhaps when you are in this area.

Best Regards,

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/11/2013 8:23:12 PM

Subject: Re: [ptech] muting a grand piano

[Geoff Sykes]

Check out Edwards String Covers, (www.edwardsstringcovers.com ). This is LaRoy Edwards site, and his wife, Judi, makes a really fantastic sound reduction kit. 

Here are some test results from using top and/or bottom kits.

http://edwardsstringcovers.com/soundLevels.pdf

Considering that a 3db change is equivalent to doubling if you are going up, or halving if you are going down, the amount of power required to produce the sound. Referring to these results, a difference of 25db from no baffles to full baffles with the lid closed is seriously significant. 

She has templates for most pianos.

Please bear in mind that LaRoy's site is a Flash site. If you have a newer Droid or Apple device it may not even open the site as Flash is being replaced by HTML5. If you can open the site then, again, because it is a Flash site I can't provide you with a direct link to the Sound Reduction Kit page. Fortunately it shows up in the top menu. The above link is a pdf file so it should open fine. 

-- Geoff Sykes, RPT

-- Eagle Rock, CA

[David Love]

Don:

 

Send me the details off list if they are for sale generally.  I’ll buy a set of them. 

 

davidlo...@comcast.net

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/11/2013 8:23:12 PM

Subject: Re: [ptech] muting a grand piano

 

So, Joe, are you going to be at MARC next week?

 

It so happens that my lovely wife made a few extra sets last time, and there is one more set available for a lucky buyer.  $20 for a set of three: 10†, 12†, 14â€

 

Or you could drive up to Boston and pick the set up at the North Bennet Street School, where I will be a week from Monday / Tuesday.

 

Let me know and I’ll bring them with me.  I find them very handy for muting noisy things during tuning, or troubleshooting mystery sympathetic ringing, leaking dampers, etc.

[Patrick C. Poulson]

I have one birdcage piano in my clientele, a German make from the late 1890's. It is tuneable, but I have yet to find a satisfactory way to tune it Anyone found a good way to approach this job, if such a thing exists?

Thanks

Patrick C. Poulson
Registered Piano Technician
530-265-1983

[tnr...@aol.com]

Tilt the action forward and install a temperament strip below where the dampers hit the strings. Tune the middles strings, or just the right/left ones. After all the strings are in tune, tilt the action forward and remove the strip. The last one I tuned had #1 pins.

 

Wim

[John Ross]

I have found a Papp's mute to be helpful.

Sometimes you have to remove a felt rail that slides in a groove.

John Ross

[Joseph Garrett]

Patrick,

A simple process.. Strip the piano end to end. If it is  overstrung. strip the bass above the dampers and to A3. The rest of the piano to be stripped under the hammers. (The action needs to be removed to do that....usually a simple maneuver.) Tune the temperament section as normal. Tune the bass, (down) and then tune the unisons up to A3. Tune the rest of the piano, (center strings), to the top. Remove action and remove every other one. Insert action. Tune from top down to A3. Remove action once more. Pull the strips out and tune from the top down. Finished. Of course, if it requires a pitch change, you'll have to repeat the process.<G>

It's the way I've been doing them for a very long time. If the Overdamper piano, (correct term...not Bird-cage), is not overstrung, strip the entire piano below the dampers. One final thing: always use a Papp's stick mute to make it easier access to the notes behind the over dampers.

Best,

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Patrick C. Poulson

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/11/2013 11:18:45 PM

Subject: [ptech] Tuning A Birdcage Piano

[Joseph Garrett]

Ah yes, forgot about the Celesta Rail. Not all Overdamper pianos have them, but easy to remove while the action is removed. Don't forget to reinstall it after tuning!<G>

Best,

joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Ross

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 4/12/2013 12:12:18 AM

Subject: Re: [ptech] Tuning A Birdcage Piano

I have found a Papp's mute to be helpful.

Sometimes you have to remove a felt rail that slides in a groove.

John Ross

On 2013-04-12, at 3:18 AM, "Patrick C. Poulson" <pcpo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[John Ross]

Celeste rail, do you think I could remember the proper terminology, no.

Thank you, Joe.

[Terry Farrell]

Don't confuse Joe!

Terry Farrell

[Terry Farrell]

Why not a seamster Joe?

Terry Farrell

[Christopher Storch]

Geoff,

Careful.  Read that chart again.  I don't think it says what you think it says.  The 25dB reduction is achieved by closing the lid on the piano, PLUS adding the full complement of Edwards baffles, PLUS (1) turning down the volume down on the player mechanism to -10 (whatever THAT is).  Of that 25dB drop, 1 dB can be attributed to closing the lid, 6 dB to 7dB can be attributed to installing the baffles, and the remainder is simply turning the volume knob down on the player mechanism.

The way I read the chart, I look at rows 1 and 7 in the first column - player mechanism at full volume, lid open, with no attenuation and then with a full complement of baffles.  This is the performance of just the foam baffles alone.  With the player mechanism playing at full volume, there was a 6dB change from the baffles.  With the player mechanism volume setting at -10, (whatever THAT is), there's a 7dB reduction.  Mind you, these are clearly noticeable results, but one cannot conclude that inserting the baffles alone achieved a 25dB reduction.

FOAM string covers PLUS bottom baffles can make an acoustical difference, but they are NOT a miracle product.  The noise reduction they achieve falls well within the normal dynamic range of capabable pianists.

Oh yeah, and the microphone for the sound level meter was 3 feet away from the piano at rim height.  Who listens to a piano there, except maybe a very short piano teacher or singer?  The bottom baffle results are likely affected by the acoustical shielding of the piano with the microphone in this position.  Or at least the results of the top baffle measurements are overstating their performance.  

Oh yeah, and decibels are abbreviated "dB".  NOT "db" or "Db" as in the chart.

And for future reference...

1dB change = not usually noticeable by people of normal hearing.  May be perceptible with tonal sounds or in laboratory conditions.

3dB change = just barely noticeable.  (Yes, a 3dB change is a halving or doubling of energy, voltage, etc., but to human perception, it's just barely noticeable.)

5 to 6dB change = clearly noticeable change

10dB change = usually perceived by most able-hearing individuals as a halving or doubling of loudness.

(These rules-of-thumb hold generally for noise.  People can be much more sensitive to tonal sound and these rules may fall apart.)

Now, do you want to get me started on the acoustical attenuation of caster cups?

Chris S.

[Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft]

Yes!

Al -

High Point, NC

[Joseph Garrett]

Seamstresses are more fun to work with. Less Terry-like!<G>

[Terry Farrell]

Good point Joe!

[Geoff Sykes]

I am humbled by the detail of your corrections. Surely I am unworthy of posting here.

For the record, "whatever THAT is", is a Yamaha Disklavier reproducing piano. In this case a Yamaha DG2 baby grand.

Also, in case you missed it, Judi is NOT LaRoy's wife, she is LaRoy's daughter. My apologies.

-- GS

[Isaac OLEG]

The adding of "acoustical foams" ducted with double sided tape under the lid, and just inserted under the soundboard, make the tone less strong audibly, but very dry.

idem using heavy fabrics that go down to the floor, you can obtain a concetr piano that sound as a medium sized vertical.

FInd that frustrating, but everyone have its own priorities.

A pianist I know just baught an old piano, then even if the piano is larger than the precedent, (A yamaha C3, now a Steinway C) it is less powerful (plus have anicer tone, hopefully)

Will not need the foam treatment

[JG]

Just as heat can travel in different ways (convection, conduction, radiation), sound can also travel through a building in different ways. Sound travels through the air, along ducts or under doors; the sound in a room can carry through walls and floors, and direct transmission of vibrational energy (conduction) is also an avenue. The amount of physical vibration being transmitted through the case and the casters into the floor and the rooms below is substantial.  This additional sound component which affects the rooms below is why nearly all sound complaints stem from the downstairs neighbor, and not from upstairs.

Acoustic insulating caster cups such as Piattino go along way to inserting an acoustic break between the piano and the floor.  More information is available here:

Piattino Caster Cups

[Ron Nossaman]

> On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 4:43:46 AM UTC-7, Mike Spalding wrote:
>
> "Thank you very much for the advice. I'm on a hunt for suitable
> sound-absorbing supplies. So far I plan on acquiring a set of Piattino
> caster cups from Germany which have received alot of very positive
> feedback. I have already implemented some of your other suggestions,
> but will probably pile on as many of the "home remedies" as I can.

The caster cups, or something along those lines that decouples the piano
from the floor, is a good idea. From there on, most home remedies all
share a common trait. They don't work. People have forever stuffed
speaker boxes with fiberglass, believing they were doing something, when
fiberglass is nearly useless as an acoustic barrier, as is most foam.
You aren't going to baffle sound away with anything cheap and easy. You
have to absorb it, and that takes mass. A good acoustic foam is heavy.
If it's not heavy, it's not good. Lead impregnated vinyl sheet is sold
as an acoustic barrier, and is considered to be quite effective, with
1/8" material weighing about 2 pounds per square foot. A mass loaded
fiberboard of sorts is also available as sheathing in walls. Maybe you
could build an isolation box around the piano, or a folding screen.

Unfortunately, making a machine that was designed and intended to
produce a lot of sound quiet, is difficult and costly.
Ron N

[Mike Kurta]

    In working with acoustic foam for sound deadening in motor home generators,  we found that closed cell type foam worked best rather than open cell.  FYI

    Mike Kurta