string not sustaining

[suns...@gmail.com]

G#5 on my personal piano is not sustaining (it's been that way for a long time). I suppose it is a hammer problem. But can't find any reason.  What can cause that and are possible fixes?

I play the note, regardless of loud/soft blow, sounds great but immediately tone is nearly all gone--no bloom, no ring, just plunk and gone.  Well, there is a little sustain, but nothing like the notes around it and for sure, no "bloom." The notes around it have nice ring and bloom and sustain for several seconds.

It is a Renner European blue hammer,  not a blue point. I tried needling 7  or so times along each side of the hammer on top and bottom shoulder but that had very little effect.  The hammer feels a bit soft.

I played each string individually and they all go "bonk" when played with the the hammer.  Plucking gives a nice sustain, and matches the notes around it. 

  Bob Tate, Provo, UT

[David Kroenlein]

Sounds to me like something spilled on the strung, therefore contaminating it and deadening it  probably need to replace the string

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David kroenlein

[Patrick Draine]

How’s it sound when you pluck the string? Are the bridge and bridge pins solid? If they’re OK, and the down bearing is good, maybe the hammer needs a little hardener? 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/CAG%3DKVG%2BBcvjDjhYJwU2WyseUNVAAbt1MpHQF4idBm2UjWWDYQQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[tnr...@aol.com]

This might sound like an easy solution but does the damper stay away from the string while you're playing it? On either grand or an upright, the damper head might be moving away from the string, but one of the felts on the damper felts might be staying on the string. Move the damper with your finger and look carefully up and down the string to make sure there is nothing impeding the string. 

[Don]

Hi,

Switch G#5 hammer assembly with G5. Does the problem disappear? Does the problem now exist on G5? If so the problem is in the G#5 hammer.

Regards,
Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/991140367.467550.1612056760697%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Joe Garrett]

Bob,

It sounds like you switched the hammer to other notes and got the same "thunk". If that's the case than the "voicing" you did exacerbated an already to soft hammer.

I would suggest applying a small amount of moisture to the hammer and then iron the bejeebers out of it. (from shoulder to shoulder) The hammer iron should be hot enough to ALMOST scorch the felt. (test on some olde extras laying around first!).

IF that brings up sustain, etc., then you are on the right track, imo. Perhaps at that point, a light amount of lacquer to the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, let set up then try it again. Caution is the name of the game. Since it's your piano, you are in a good place for some careful experimenting.<G>

The last thing anyone should reach for, in voicing, is the needles In My Humble Opinion. Unfortunately, the opposite is the case. <G>

Best Regards,

Joe Garrett

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Draine
Sent: Jan 30, 2021 5:26 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] string not sustaining

How’s it sound when you pluck the string? Are the bridge and bridge pins solid? If they’re OK, and the down bearing is good, maybe the hammer needs a little hardener? 

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 8:20 PM David Kroenlein <poin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds to me like something spilled on the strung, therefore contaminating it and deadening it  probably need to replace the string

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 18:46 suns...@gmail.com <suns...@gmail.com> wrote:

G#5 on my personal piano is not sustaining (it's been that way for a long time). I suppose it is a hammer problem. But can't find any reason.  What can cause that and are possible fixes?

I play the note, regardless of loud/soft blow, sounds great but immediately tone is nearly all gone--no bloom, no ring, just plunk and gone.  Well, there is a little sustain, but nothing like the notes around it and for sure, no "bloom." The notes around it have nice ring and bloom and sustain for several seconds.

It is a Renner European blue hammer,  not a blue point. I tried needling 7  or so times along each side of the hammer on top and bottom shoulder but that had very little effect.  The hammer feels a bit soft.

I played each string individually and they all go "bonk" when played with the the hammer.  Plucking gives a nice sustain, and matches the notes around it. 

  Bob Tate, Provo, UT

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David kroenlein

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Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[suns...@gmail.com]

Thank you every one.   I hope (don't believe) I killed the hammer from needling the outside edges. The tone is still there on the attack, but that is about all it has--attack and no real sustain.  It sounds like the surrounding notes--same volume, can go same soft to loud, but it sounds like it is being immediately dampered, even though no damper is touching any of the trichord.

I forgot to mention, this is a 6'3" Estonia grand.

With the damper lifted, and plucking the strings, the sound on each string does sustain--so I do not believe it is a termination problem.

maybe the hammer is too soft and came that way from the factory?  It is time for new hammers, these are 14 yrs old, played all the time (classical music)  but I don't feel competent to install and rebalance the keyboard.  So, I am just trying to get by.  --and I wouldn't even know which hammers are the right ones to go with for this piano.  The action was super heavy when I got it--but that is another discussion.

Joe, you mentioned to try a small amount of moisture to the hammer--where in particular do I add it (a few drops)?   I had read that needling, specifically, Renner's from 11 to 9 & 1 to 3 on the outside edge of the hammer, could help a short sustain problem.  That is what I did--and I did not use a large or long needle--but only a single needle,  sugar-coating tool.  (I didn't know what else to try--but it didn't work.)  If you can tell me a little more specific about where to apply moisture (you mean drops of water--not steam?), that would help.

I don't know if any of you know Jim Busby--he's a friend--he tried to get it to sustain and couldn't bring it up either.  But we didn't try the add moisture and iron trick.

I am really at my wits end--I play probably 3 hours/day--and the "thunk" sure ruins a Chopin melody.

--once this is solved, maybe you good folk can help me figure out what to do so I can get new hammers, these have seen better days.

Bob

[Joe Garrett]

David,

Not likely imo. Plain wire does not react to spillage like wound strings. I have a small grand that had it's soundboard rattle canned w/gold paint right through the plain wire. The wires were covered with the stuff. I thought like you, so cleaned off the paint. Not one bit of difference in sustain or tone! I did have to replace the wound strings that got the same treatment though.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: David Kroenlein
Sent: Jan 30, 2021 5:20 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] string not sustaining

Sounds to me like something spilled on the strung, therefore contaminating it and deadening it  probably need to replace the string

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 18:46 suns...@gmail.com <suns...@gmail.com> wrote:

G#5 on my personal piano is not sustaining (it's been that way for a long time). I suppose it is a hammer problem. But can't find any reason.  What can cause that and are possible fixes?

I play the note, regardless of loud/soft blow, sounds great but immediately tone is nearly all gone--no bloom, no ring, just plunk and gone.  Well, there is a little sustain, but nothing like the notes around it and for sure, no "bloom." The notes around it have nice ring and bloom and sustain for several seconds.

It is a Renner European blue hammer,  not a blue point. I tried needling 7  or so times along each side of the hammer on top and bottom shoulder but that had very little effect.  The hammer feels a bit soft.

I played each string individually and they all go "bonk" when played with the the hammer.  Plucking gives a nice sustain, and matches the notes around it. 

  Bob Tate, Provo, UT

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David kroenlein

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[Mark Dierauf]

Bob -

You didn't mention it,  but did you try a careful hammer/string mating? This can often make a surprising difference. 

Mark

[Allied PianoCraft]

Also, did you fill the hammer with fine paper to remove the string marks?

High Point, NC

Al -

On Jan 31, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Mark Dierauf <ma...@nhpianos.com> wrote:

Bob -

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[Douglas Gregg]

Is the damper lifting enough? That seems like the first thing to check.

Doug Gregg

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:46 PM, suns...@gmail.com <suns...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John]

A short video would really help too ;-)

-cheers

--John

Sent from my iPhone
(From txt via speech too perhaps)

On Jan 31, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Douglas Gregg <class...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is the damper lifting enough? That seems like the first thing to check.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/C62D9714-11B6-4C4A-8BC4-7872DB9FFD25%40gmail.com.

[Joe Garrett]

Doug,

I thought that was covered, but perhaps not. I agree, that would be the first thing to check. The next thing I'd do would be to exchange hammers/shanks/flanges of the offending note and a good neighbor. If the problem traveled then the hammer is at fault. If it doesn't, then something is creating the problem other than the hammer.

To answer the question of moisture, specificially: Handkerchief wetted. Have Hammer iron HOT. Iron the handkerchief over the hammer, 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock. Remove handkerchief. Continue to iron the felt until thoroughly dry. This will shrink the felt and make it more dense.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Gregg
Sent: Jan 31, 2021 6:26 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] string not sustaining

[Joe Garrett]

Of course, you are assuming that EVERYONE has a "dumbphone".<G> The last stats I saw, 30% still do not. I'm one of them!

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: John
Sent: Jan 31, 2021 7:17 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] string not sustaining

A short video would really help too ;-)

-cheers

--John

Sent from my iPhone
(From txt via speech too perhaps)

On Jan 31, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Douglas Gregg <class...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is the damper lifting enough? That seems like the first thing to check.

Doug Gregg

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:46 PM, suns...@gmail.com <suns...@gmail.com> wrote:



G#5 on my personal piano is not sustaining (it's been that way for a long time). I suppose it is a hammer problem. But can't find any reason.  What can cause that and are possible fixes?

I play the note, regardless of loud/soft blow, sounds great but immediately tone is nearly all gone--no bloom, no ring, just plunk and gone.  Well, there is a little sustain, but nothing like the notes around it and for sure, no "bloom." The notes around it have nice ring and bloom and sustain for several seconds.

It is a Renner European blue hammer,  not a blue point. I tried needling 7  or so times along each side of the hammer on top and bottom shoulder but that had very little effect.  The hammer feels a bit soft.

I played each string individually and they all go "bonk" when played with the the hammer.  Plucking gives a nice sustain, and matches the notes around it. 

  Bob Tate, Provo, UT

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[Stephen Grattan]

I haven’t seen this idea posted yet.  How about damper timing?  Is the damper lifting sufficiently before the hammer strikes the string?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:46 PM, suns...@gmail.com <suns...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

[Mark Schecter]

Is the hammer letting off? The jack could be broken. If it is letting off, is there sufficient drop to prevent it from blocking at the end of the keystroke?  

Mark Schecter

 | |   | | |   | |   | | | 

On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:18 PM, Stephen Grattan <lostcho...@ameritech.net> wrote:

I haven’t seen this idea posted yet.  How about damper timing?  Is the damper lifting sufficiently before the hammer strikes the string?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/C22D6BEB-7EEB-4A04-BBB7-42A4D1058300%40ameritech.net.

[Joe Garrett]

All this speculation. I suggested swapping out the hammers, i.e. G#5 to G5/G5 to G#5 and see if the problem "travels". So far, I have not heard if that was done. It would be nice if suggestions were at least tried. Also, damper timing was mentioned. No remarks on that either! Seems impossible to continue with the speculation until specifics have been tried imo. Of course, if the owner doesn't feel comfortable pulling the action, then a qualified technician needs to be called imo.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schecter
Sent: Jan 31, 2021 1:49 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] string not sustaining

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/CC0C9B23-F863-45B0-AB4D-8C0A2683700B%40schecterpiano.com.

[Mark Schecter]

Agreed. 

Mark Schecter

 | |   | | |   | |   | | | 

On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



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