Leg Bolts

[Chuck C]

 Hi Group,
Does anyone have access to an extra leg bolt or two?
One's missing from an "Hamilton" grand, (recent vintage), machine threads, 3" long, hex socket.
Don't know thread count but it looks the same as other leg bolts of Asian variety.
Baldwin won't deal directly with techs, by the way. 
Will try Young Chang or Samick if no one here has one.
Thanks,
Chuck Christus
Flagler Beach, FL
386-439-3955

[Joseph Garrett]

Take a sample to your local Ace Hardware Store!
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Chuck C]

Thanks Joe, but....
I did already and they don't have it either.
Nor does the big "Daytona Bolt and Nut" store, which is the go-to place for all kinds of fasteners.
I think it really is specific to pianos, and I thought if anyone had it it would be either you, Joe, or Isaac (who is probably in Norfolk at the moment?).
Am also looking at McMaster-Carr but I'll probably have to have a sample in front of me to measure correctly anyway.
Will hold out here, and maybe post after the weekend again to see who might have one.
Meanwhile, Young Chang's current contact info?  I have half a page of numbers and contacts, don't know which is current.
Chuck

[Joseph Garrett]

Hmmm? If it's "recent vintage", it would have to be metric, since all of Baldwin's stuff is coming from China the last I heard. Therefore, I refer you back to Ace Hardware and their very extensive Metric bolt section. If not, then take the sample to a machinist that has a CNC lathe. With the new computerized lathes an infinite variable of threads is possible. Costly? Yes. However it beats the alternative of revamping the existing system to something more conventional. It'd behoove you to get some Thread Gauges so that we could know what you're really talking about.<G>
Best,

[Mark Schecter]

I have found that some Asian eg Samick pianos use Whitworth threads, a British standard. I have attempted to paste a pdf describing British Thread Types. Tell me if it didn't come through. 

Mark Schecter, RPT

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[Chuck C]

Didn't get the attachment, Mark, but your observation about Whitworth threads might explain my dilemma.
Thanks.
Chuck

[Joseph Garrett]

It didn't.
Joe

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/22/2016 9:51 PM, Mark Schecter wrote:
> I have found that some Asian eg Samick pianos use Whitworth threads, a
> British standard. I have attempted to paste a pdf describing British
> Thread Types. Tell me if it didn't come through.

Don't paste it Mark, attach it.
Ron N

[Mark Schecter]

OK, I've attached it to this email. I hope it works.

Previously, I tried to paste it into an email on my phone, but though it looked ok on my end, it failed. Please tell me if this arrives, so I can learn how to do this in the future. Thanks.

Mark Schecter, RPT
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[Chuck C]

Yep'r, that'n came through.
Every time you turn around, sumpin' new to learn.
Thanks for the insights.
Chuck

[Joseph Garrett]

Mark,
It came through. However, I doubt that is what you are dealing with in the piano.
Just my opinion.<G> Again, some decent thread gauges should tell you what you are dealing with. The Whitworth thing, I think, is just muddying the waters here.

Best,
joe

[Mark Schecter]

Thanks for the report. While the Whitworth info may not locate the bolt he needs, I sent it because many people have never heard of the Whitworth standard (including me before I needed a longer lyre bolt). Because it was the answer to my search, and he's having trouble finding a bolt that fits, it seemed like it could be a helpful clue. I'm content to leave it to him to determine whether the information helps or hurts. 

Mark Schecter, RPT

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[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/22/2016 11:28 PM, Mark Schecter wrote:
> OK, I've attached it to this email. I hope it works.
>
> Previously, I tried to paste it into an email on my phone, but though it
> looked ok on my end, it failed. Please tell me if this arrives, so I can
> learn how to do this in the future. Thanks.

It worked. Embedding sometimes works - with photos, but attachments work
for everyone.
Ron N

[Terry Farrell]

I think for just about everything they sell, McMaster Carr has excellent engineer drawings - especially for nuts and bolts and that sort of thing. If you have your piece, you should be able to tell exactly whether McMaster Carr has what you need. Once you find your target piece on their website, you should be able to just click and see a drawing with all measurements.

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,
McMaster-Carr is an excellent source. However, it's worthless unless you have some specs! Nowhere in this discussion have I seen what the thread count is. Or, for that matter, what the overall diameter and length of the needed bolts were. Without those specs this conversation is worthless.
Joe

[Terry Farrell]

Well, I would suggest that is not true. Chuck says that he has a sister bolt, so all he needs to do is get a caliper and start measuring. I don’t need to know details as I am not looking for one!

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

But you may be one of these days. The "calipers" is just part of the equation. There are many different bolts all the same diameter, so the thread count and the length are also needed for us to be of any help in this "search".
The point I'm trying to make is that specifics are needed. I'm amazed at how many technicians do not have a simple screw gauge or how to use it! The same applies to those that do not have thread gauges or adequate micrometers/calipers. (and how to use those as well! If it's not digital they're lost!)

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/23/2016 9:47 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> But you may be one of these days. The "calipers" is just part of the
> equation. There are many different bolts all the same diameter, so the
> thread count and the length are also needed for us to be of any help in
> this "search".
> The point I'm trying to make is that specifics are needed. I'm amazed at
> how many technicians do not have a simple screw gauge or how to use it!
> The same applies to those that do not have thread gauges or adequate
> micrometers/calipers. (and how to use those as well! If it's not digital
> they're lost!)

Well, yea, I've bitched about that for a very long time. The wrong
question was asked in the first place. Does anyone have a leg bolt?
Length only, and "machine thread", as if a leg bolt is a leg bolt is a
leg bolt. The answer is, of course, to determine the diameter and
threading, which we CAN'T DO FOR HIM. So fifteen posts to no affect pass
as this is discussed. Chuck, measure the thread, or take it to someone
who can. Then you'll have some real information with which to search
industrial supply houses. This is almost certainly not an Ace Hardware
item, but to know what to look for elsewhere you HAVE to know the
thread. Find out, then go looking.
Ron N

[Chuck C]

Thanks for all the great suggestions.  When I can get back to the client's piano I can measure what is there. 
I don't have a sample sister bolt in front of me, which could have saved a lot of bandwidth, as a more detailed description
would have obviously helped.
Sorry for the distraction,  I do appreciate everyone's input.
Gratefully,
Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Nossaman
Sent: Jul 23, 2016 1:42 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Leg Bolts

[Jon Page]

In the Moondog Grand Piano Tilter kit are 2 Whitworth 1/2" x 12 bolts for attaching the tilter to the lyre mountings.

http://www.moondogmanufacturing.com

[Jon Page]

In the Moondog Grand Piano Tilter kit are two 1/2" x 12 Whitworth bolts for attaching the tilter to the lyre mounting on Samick products.

http://www.moondogmanufacturing.com

[Joseph Garrett]

O.k. So, is Moondog a source? Or to put it another way, where does he get them? Just asking.
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page
Sent: Jul 24, 2016 3:31 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: chchr...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Leg Bolts

In the Moondog Grand Piano Tilter kit are 2 Whitworth 1/2" x 12 bolts for attaching the tilter to the lyre mountings.

http://www.moondogmanufacturing.com

[Douglas Gregg]

I have worked with Whitworth bolts on motorcycles for years. The thread sizes are close enough to  American standard sizes. The head sizes are much different, thus the need for different wrenches. 

See this chart for specs.

http://www.engineersedge.com/hardware/whitworth-screw-threads-chart.htm

Doug Gregg

[Douglas Gregg]

Correction, I was talking about SAE NC compared to Whitworth coarse. The fine thread are different. 

Doug Gregg

[Joseph Garrett]

Interesting, but what does that have to do with a source?
Joe

[Jon Page]

The Moondog Tilter bolts are special fasteners with a knurled head and a securing collar for attaching the tilter to the lyre mounts. You can see them on their website.

Grainger or McMaster-Carr might have the cap bolts with a hex drive (10mm or 3/8" hex key works).

Google would locate them too. 

[Douglas Gregg]

Joe,

If you were asking what that has to do with a source, then I would say you can use SAE NC and the threads will fit. Only the head size will be different. If it is Whitworth coarse thread, I would change them all to SAE NC so the next guy does not have to try to find a wrench to fit the Whitworth. 

Whitworth wrenches are getting very hard to find these days since the Brits have not been using  them since about 1970. 

Doug Gregg

[Joseph Garrett]

Doug,
That's nice to know. However, as I recall, (w/o searching back into the previous emails<G>), the "bolts" in question have a hex cap screw head. Therefore the wrench thing is not up for consideration. The whole point is to find a source for said "bolts", because Baldwin doesn't want to talk to anyone of our ilk! Sheesh. Their Chinese "roots" are showing.<G>
Best,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Gregg

[Joseph Garrett]

Just fyi, I did a search of both. Neither has Whitworth stock.
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page
Sent: Jul 24, 2016 7:36 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Leg Bolts

The Moondog Tilter bolts are special fasteners with a knurled head and a securing collar for attaching the tilter to the lyre mounts. You can see them on their website.

Grainger or McMaster-Carr might have the cap bolts with a hex drive (10mm or 3/8" hex key works).

Google would locate them too. 

On Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 4:18:00 PM UTC-4, Joseph Garrett wrote:

O.k. So, is Moondog a source? Or to put it another way, where does he get them? Just asking.
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page
Sent: Jul 24, 2016 3:31 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: chchr...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Leg Bolts

In the Moondog Grand Piano Tilter kit are 2 Whitworth 1/2" x 12 bolts for attaching the tilter to the lyre mountings.

http://www.moondogmanufacturing.com

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/25/2016 2:09 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Just fyi, I did a search of both. Neither has Whitworth stock.

If you were to miraculously do a Google search on a source of Whitworth
threaded bolts, you would find some. But since you don't need one
yourself, and apparently haven't done such a search, I don't understand
what all this is for.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
I was responding to Jon's post. I did a search of the two sites he suggested only.
It is not me that should be "....to miraculously do a Google search on a source of Whitworth >threaded bolts, you would find some."! Why did you not suggest it to the person that originally asked for a source? Seems logical that you should have since that is your usual bent.<G>
Best,
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Jul 25, 2016 12:19 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Leg Bolts
>

[Douglas Gregg]

Chuck,

If you need Whitworth bolts. Here is your source. hex head or socket head.

http://britishfasteners.com/index.php/socket-head-cap-screws.html

Doug Gregg

[Jon Page]

How about calling Jane or Sam at Samick?