Any appreciation for Chickering's?

[Regi Hedahl]

I picked up this 1901 Chickering 119 7'6” a few days ago. Today, I tipped it back on it's legs and snapped a few pictures.

Inside the action cavity. Of course, it has the famous stepped flange pinblock. It also has threaded damper wires.

Here's a few photos of the action. I was expecting to find copper flanges but not on this action. The wood appears relatively light in color so perhaps the action parts were replaced in the past. There is steel fixed to the wooden action rails for the flanges to screw into.

Laminated wooden action brackets. The repetition lever spring rests on a silk cord so there is no rubbing friction at the spring end. I'm surprised at how good these whippens look for such an old piano.

Action has few weights in the keys. There are up to 4 weights in the bass and it tapers down to 0 weights from C6 and up. Key C8 has wood removed from the keystick and is back weighted.

Bridges look good for the age. I suspect the speaking length in the high treble may be a bit short though.

Inverted half agraffes and rather short string segment.

International pitch A-435 printed on the plate. Looks like this piano could benefit from rescaling.

All wound strings are placed on the bass bridge. There are 25 notes on the bass bridge and . The bass bridge is also not cantilevered and no nasty sounding hockey stick long bridge.

The view from underneath.

Small treble cutoff?

Regi Hedahl

[David Kroenlein]

Woa! That thing is a beast!!

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

[Terry Farrell]

The piano appears to have fabulous potential!  Now all you need is to have Del Fandrich or Ron Nossaman redesign the belly for you and you build (or have me build!) and install a new belly in this beast!  Many of those old Chickerings have a relatively small soundboard area on the back side of the treble bridge - perhaps no need to install a fish back there to lessen the soundboard area.

It would be a bunch of work, but it sure looks like a winner to me! Love the underside!  Thanks for sharing.

Terry Farrell

[Isaac Sadigursky]

Hi, Regi !

 Thank you for great pictures..

 Great sounding pianos, INMO

i had worked on a few of those..

I am sure, you know  warnings,based on experience:

1] Beware of Brass Flanges and ANGLED Whippens..

2] Silk cords might be ready for replacement, too

3] As for International Pitch A-435 :

 I had no problems Pitch Raising them and tuning to A-440.

 Isaac Sadigursky, RPT

Los Angeles Chapter PTG

[Terry Farrell]

2] Silk cords might be ready for replacement, too

Hmmm - 112 year old - perhaps we a ready for a new action, new back action and a new belly!

Terry Farrell

[lim hock seng]

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing. I have not seen a Chickering yet....

Lim

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

Have you ever replaced an action in a Chickering? It is extremely difficult. I've done two. One, in a "1/4 Grand" and one in an 1867 8' flat strung. Both were total mind benders to get new parts to work. Not for the feint of heart dude.

Best,

joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Oct 1, 2014 5:06 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

> 2] Silk cords might be ready for replacement, too


Hmmm - 112 year old - perhaps we a ready for a new action, new back action and a new belly!

Terry Farrell

On Sep 30, 2014, at 9:00 PM, Isaac Sadigursky wrote:

> Hi, Regi !
> Thank you for great pictures..
> Great sounding pianos, INMO
> i had worked on a few of those..
> I am sure, you know warnings,based on experience:
>
> 1] Beware of Brass Flanges and ANGLED Whippens..
> 2] Silk cords might be ready for replacement, too
> 3] As for International Pitch A-435 :
> I had no problems Pitch Raising them and tuning to A-440.
> Isaac Sadigursky, RPT
> Los Angeles Chapter PTG
> On Sep 30, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
>
>> I picked up this 1901 Chickering 119 7'6” a few days ago. Today, I tipped it back on it's legs and snapped a few pictures.

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Terry Farrell]

Build new rails and make it a standard type.

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

It's obvious you haven't attempted such, since the damned things are so tightly engineered and constructed that there is NO ROOM for a modern action! Clue: The angled hammershanks and wippens is absolutely necessary!

Or,.....to put it another way: Good luck with that Dude!

Best,

joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Oct 1, 2014 8:28 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

Build new rails and make it a standard type.

Terry Farrell

On Oct 1, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> Terry,
>
> Have you ever replaced an action in a Chickering? It is extremely difficult. I've done two. One, in a "1/4 Grand" and one in an 1867 8' flat strung. Both were total mind benders to get new parts to work. Not for the feint of heart dude.
>
> Best,
>
> joe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Farrell
> Sent: Oct 1, 2014 5:06 AM
> To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?
>
> > 2] Silk cords might be ready for replacement, too
>
>
> Hmmm - 112 year old - perhaps we a ready for a new action, new back action and a new belly!
>
> Terry Farrell

[Euphonious Thumpe]

The action in this one seems fairly "standard". (Not one of the many permutations of the dreaded "Brown action" that Chickering used.) So I wouldn't see the point in trying to replace it. It is what it is. Probably sufficient for whoever would be interested in buying this thing. Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

Sent: Wed, Oct 1, 2014 3:28:27 PM

[Joseph Garrett]

Thumpe(r),

The key word there is "fairly" standard. Yes it has wippens that resemble the norm, but they aren't! Yes it has hammers, shanks and flanges that appear normal, but....they are not. Take a closer look at the overall layout! As for it being a "thing" to be sold, etc., you need to know that most Chickerings are, Musically, really great. It's just the engineering and mechanics that are so daunting.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Euphonious Thumpe' via pianotech
Sent: Oct 1, 2014 9:27 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

The action in this one seems fairly "standard". (Not one of the many permutations of the dreaded "Brown action" that Chickering used.) So I wouldn't see the point in trying to replace it. It is what it is. Probably sufficient for whoever would be interested in buying this thing.

Thumpe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

[Regi Hedahl]

Here's a photo of the angles whippens and hammershanks as Joe pointed out.  The hammers are bored at an angle for these top notes.  This is obviously not an action that you can buy parts and screw / glue it on.  But that's OK because that has never been the way I do it.

I then went to my WNG sample parts and found a whippen that's the closest match.  Some obvious differences is the jack tender is a different size and the WNG whippen flange doesn't extend out to the same orientation to simply screw onto the rail.  That said, the whippen and hammer flanges are the same standard width (unlike on the quarter grands).  Also the whippens on this piano are in remarkable condition so I don't see much need to replace them.

Regi Hedahl

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/1/2014 10:22 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Terry,
>
> Have you ever replaced an action in a Chickering? It is extremely
> difficult. I've done two. One, in a "1/4 Grand" and one in an 1867 8'
> flat strung. Both were total mind benders to get new parts to work. Not
> for the feint of heart dude.

I've done a couple. You look the piano over before you take it in, and
decide if you're up to it. Then either pass, or price as necessary for
the hair transplant. Definitely not an easy ride at best, and no two
seem to be the same. It's an adventure, but declining the job is quite
understandable for some of them.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Regi,

Thanks for taking the time to show the wippen comparisons. They are not even close. Action geometry is far more exacting than most think. That plastic abomination will not work! (period) It was not designed for this Chickering abomination action.<G> It is possible to replace the old for "new", but far more "modifications" are necessary than the WN&G is capable of, imo.

Most of you would say to just put in a new rail and install standard wippens that match new shanks, flanges & hammers on a new rail as well. Sounds easy, right? Nope. In order to do that you would have to design a new action frame and completely new key set with a new key frame and appropriate action geometry to coincide with the other new parts. Here's the zinger: the action cavity would have to be redesigned and modified too! Good luck with that one, because you'd literally have to build a new carcass!

In this particular Chickering, you are very fortunate that the tuning pins are still tight in the pin block. One of the other weak points of Chickerings was the pin block material. Usually very soft minimal lamination maple that has to be replaced when it gets below minimum torque standards. Just doing that can be a real head banger. That process was covered in an article in the PTJ recently. All fun and games to be sure.<G>

Just so's ya know.

Best,

Joe

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl
Sent: Oct 1, 2014 10:02 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

Here's a photo of the angles whippens and hammershanks as Joe pointed out.
The hammers are bored at an angle for these top notes. This is obviously
not an action that you can buy parts and screw / glue it on. But that's OK
because that has never been the way I do it.

I then went to my WNG sample parts and found a whippen that's the closest
match. Some obvious differences is the jack tender is a different size and
the WNG whippen flange doesn't extend out to the same orientation to simply
screw onto the rail. That said, the whippen and hammer flanges are the
same standard width (unlike on the quarter grands). Also the whippens on
this piano are in remarkable condition so I don't see much need to replace
them.

Regi Hedahl

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Terry Farrell]

Well, I helped a bit and watched a lot another very talented local tech re-do one. It was very early in my piano career and I don't really remember many details, but I do remember that he had to make new rails and he used modern "normal" action parts. And it worked quite well.

Terry Farrell

On Oct 1, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

Terry,

It's obvious you haven't attempted such, since the damned things are so tightly engineered and constructed that there is NO ROOM for a modern action! Clue: The angled hammershanks and wippens is absolutely necessary!

[Isaac Sadigursky]

And Isaac had pointed it out, too..

 Joe is absolutly right;

Beware of ANGLED Chickering parts !!!

All based on experience..

 Good luck !

 Isaac

[Regi Hedahl]

Joe,

Thanks for the information.  Looks like I'm also fortunate that the whippens on this piano are in good shape.  I'll just rebuild and reuse them.

Not sure if I'll be able to use WNG shanks & flanges.

Regi Hedahl

[Patrick Draine]

Jude Reveley converted a couple Chickering models to WNG parts and action rails, including new redesigned keyboards (hmm, I think Jim Ialeggio has as well). T'was a lot of work, certainly not something to do on spec, but it can be done!

Best,

Patrick

[Joseph Garrett]

Patrick,

And I can do the same with Renner parts, which are easier to deal with imo. Cost-wise probably the same, but I like a real piano sound as opposed to a plastic clanky thingee.<G> Again, just me and my love of wood and rich piano tone.<G>

Best Regards,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Draine
Sent: Oct 2, 2014 7:03 PM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

Jude Reveley converted a couple Chickering models to WNG parts and action
rails, including new redesigned keyboards (hmm, I think Jim Ialeggio has as
well). T'was a lot of work, certainly not something to do on spec, but it
can be done!
Best,
Patrick

On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 11:07 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:

> Joe,
>
> Thanks for the information. Looks like I'm also fortunate that the
> whippens on this piano are in good shape. I'll just rebuild and reuse them.
>
> Not sure if I'll be able to use WNG shanks & flanges.
>
>
>

> Regi Hedahl
>
> On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:00:13 PM UTC-5, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>>
>> Regi,
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to show the wippen comparisons. They are not
>> even close. Action geometry is far more exacting than most think. That
>> plastic abomination will not work! (period) It was not designed for this

>> Chickering abomination action. It is possible to replace the old for

>> "new", but far more "modifications" are necessary than the WN&G is capable
>> of, imo.
>>
>> Most of you would say to just put in a new rail and install standard
>> wippens that match new shanks, flanges & hammers on a new rail as well.
>> Sounds easy, right? Nope. In order to do that you would have to design a
>> new action frame and completely new key set with a new key frame and
>> appropriate action geometry to coincide with the other new parts. Here's
>> the zinger: the action cavity would have to be redesigned and modified too!
>> Good luck with that one, because you'd literally have to build a new
>> carcass!
>>
>> In this particular Chickering, you are very fortunate that the tuning
>> pins are still tight in the pin block. One of the other weak points of
>> Chickerings was the pin block material. Usually very soft minimal
>> lamination maple that has to be replaced when it gets below minimum torque
>> standards. Just doing that can be a real head banger. That process was
>> covered in an article in the PTJ recently. All fun and games to be sure.
>>

>> Just so's ya know.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>

[David Kroenlein]

Whats all this bologna? Have to download an app to hear it??

On Sunday, October 5, 2014, Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recorded a few sound samples of this Chickering after tuning it and filing off the very deep string grooves.  The piano sounds pretty tired but that is to be expected on a piano that has lasted over a century.

Chromatic Scale
http://www.datafilehost.com/d/48fce7f1

Claire de Lune http://www.datafilehost.com/d/ffd10f85

Regi Hedahl

[Will Truitt]

FWIW, I also got a message from Norton Utilities that the file was unsafe. Maybe something nasty is piggybacking.

Will Truitt

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Regi Hedahl
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 7:21 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Any appreciation for Chickering's?

Click the gray download button. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try something else.
Regi

[Regi Hedahl]

Hope this works.

Chromatic scale
http://www.tinyupload.org/jyb4we9ynsd

Clair de Lune
http://www.tinyupload.org/azkwfpn53wg

Regi Hedahl

[David Kroenlein]

That worked---sirprisingly decent sound!  Nice rich bass, maybe a little thunky in the tenor enjoy rebuilding it!

[Regi Hedahl]

Thanks for listening. Yeah, not bad but could be a lot better IMO. The rapidly decaying higher notes make it suitable for playing baroque music but not for much else. Perhaps a room with lots of reverb would mask that. That said, it's pretty obvious that the soundboard is toast on this instrument. It's going to take a lot more work than a simple restring job.

Regi Hedahl