hammer selection

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William Monroe

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Apr 25, 2013, 9:21:21 AM4/25/13
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Hello Hammerheads,

What do you all say about the following hammers in terms of density/brightness out of the box?  How would you rank them, brightest to least bright?  What other comparisons would you draw between them tonally or otherwise?

Renner Blue Points (not traditional "Blues" - these are much better)
Ronson Weickert
NY Steinway 
Abel Selects
Abel Naturals
Ronson Wurzen AA

I appreciate your (collective) input.
--
William R. Monroe

Joseph Garrett

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Apr 25, 2013, 10:54:41 AM4/25/13
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You left out several.
Joe
 
Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
 

William Monroe

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Apr 25, 2013, 10:57:33 AM4/25/13
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I'm interested in the ones I listed, not the ones I left out.  They were left out for a reason.  Now then, any input on the ones that I HAVE asked about?

WRM

Dale Erwin

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Apr 25, 2013, 11:39:04 AM4/25/13
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Hi Bill
 I'd say there is a lot of ...well it depends.... in the answer. But in general my answers will seem like a crap shoot. Probably the entire exercise will be a can of worms as any one persons experience will vary. 
So...On a scale of one to 10 10 being the stiffest is how I rate hammers. a 1 is a cotton ball.
 I am also concerned in this evaluation of doing some product an injustice based on a lack of exposure to that product. SO PLEAASE don't make me wear a falme suit.  PLEASE.
  Also each product will have hammers that vary in stiffness from time to time. Thats just life dealing with organic materials like wool.


What do you all say about the following hammers in terms of density/brightness out of the box?  How would 
you rank them, brightest to least bright?  What other comparisons would you draw between them tonally or otherwise? 
Renner Blue Points (not traditional "Blues" - these are much better) 
7 to 8-Quite stiff but It depends..I've had sets that needed very little needling and some that needed a fair bit. The bass is a cake walk and sometimes requires small amounts of lac. IMO A good choice for some Ds

-Abel Naturals- 7 ish Not much experience. MAny report good success. Too much needling and rebounding for me personally.

Ronson Weickert- 5 to 5.5  Lots of experience with this. Love the tone color will often need thin solutions of lac. or none. Needling to open up comes after break in usually. Mostly none

Ronson Wurzen AA- 6- A good hammer for many applications. Some needling required

NY Steinway 3-4-Irratic density. Used many and had some great success and others dismal. I don't use them anymore

Abel Selects- 7-8 I don't know about these any more. The older sets 3 or 4 years ago were quite hard and density erratic. Abel is always ever the innovator and changer. I believe they are shooting for lower density now.
Gotta run
Dale



I appreciate your (collective) input.

Dale Erwin-Erwins Piano Restoration
Modesto,Calif.

David Love

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Apr 25, 2013, 12:34:27 PM4/25/13
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The answer is complicated if you are measuring in terms of brightness or even power.  There is a lengthy discussion that addresses some of the issues I mention below on this on the new ptg list in the “voicing” group between Fred Sturm and me that can hardly be duplicated here.  I believe the subject heading started out as “lacquer voicing” and morphed briefly into a hammer selection discussion.  Might be worth reading.

 

It’s not just an issue of density, it’s how the density is achieved, how much tension is in the hammer, weight, and profile (how thick the felt is over the molding) in various parts of the hammer set.  Of course the weight curve is important as well.  How much heat is used in the pressing and prepressing impacts things like tension and can move the neutral axis of the felt outward effectively eliminating tension completely.  Without tension the hammer is effectively dead, a lump of felt that can be manipulated (by manipulating the density) but will not be as stable or elastic.  The amount of tension in the felt strongly influences the “voiceability” of the hammer, how reactive it is.  Hammers with little or no tension usually require much more extreme voicing procedures.  Hammers with a lot of tension can be voiced so that the tension release over the crown can be done in a controlled manner.  While tensioned hammers react more to needling away from the crown it is therefore easy to overdo it with voicing and more difficult to bring the tension back to crown.   The hammer needs to function like a spring to sound the best, be the most stable and to be responsive to voicing.  All voicing is destructive to the hammer so the less you need to do the better.  Choosing a hammer for the least amount of manipulation requires a careful matching of the hammer to the soundboard and string scale.  There is no one hammer fits all. 

 

Density can be achieved by pressing with or without heat or be stretching (producing more tension), or by adding hardeners.  While cold pressed hammers (Ronsen uses no heat in either the pre or post pressing process) tends to produce hammers with less density but more tension, there is, what I refer to, as “effective” density which can be accomplished by proper profiling (controlling the thickness of the felt in each section).    Ronsen hammers that often need lacquer or other hardeners (Bacon felt always needs it, Weickert or Wurzen may or may not depending on how you order them) can be made so that lacquer is completely unnecessary in any section.  Profiling the hammer properly becomes critical here.  Large, bulky Ronsen hammers will have low effective density and almost always need hardeners, lighter weight carefully profiled hammers will have higher effective density and probably won’t need anything (proper matching  notwithstanding).  Excessive weight in the treble is a problem I see frequently with Ronsen hammers, though this is not a manufacturing problem but one of ordering them correctly with the right specifications. 

 

Conversely, low profile, high density, low tension pressings will be inflexible and unforgiving, overly bright and difficult to keep stable.  High profile denser pressing may not have the same problem or to a lesser degree. 

 

A careful consideration of all the features of the hammer needs to be considered along with the soundboard and string scale to which they are matched.  Poor matching means lots of voicing.  If you are needling excessively or adding lots of lacquer you either chose poorly, ordered poorly (weight and profile included), or have poorly made hammer. 

 

That being said I would put them in this general order from lower density to higher density.   The spacing between each hammer in terms of density, or effective density, is not necessarily equal and can vary with the model hammer.  For example, I find the Renner Blue G3 hammer can have a fairly high effective density while the G4 performs with a somewhat lower density (but higher mass).  The G4 hammer has a higher profile.  While there would seem to be gaps between these various hammers those gaps can be closed by proper dimensioning of the hammers.  Pressings between lots can also vary.   

 

Lower to higher density:

 

NY Steinway (unlacquered) same as Ronsen Bacon

Ronson Weickert

Ronson Wurzen AA

Abel Selects

Renner Blue Points

Abel Naturals

Renner Blue

 

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

Dale Erwin

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Apr 25, 2013, 4:36:45 PM4/25/13
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Bill
 Yeah and what David said. ;)

Dale Erwin-Erwins Piano Restoration
Modesto,Calif.


William Monroe

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Apr 25, 2013, 7:23:12 PM4/25/13
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Thanks for your input fellas.
Bill


Dale Erwin

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Apr 25, 2013, 7:36:13 PM4/25/13
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Uuhhhh.... Did that really help at all?
I'm just sayin

Sent from my iPhone
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