Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

[Douglas Gregg]

I posted this a while ago without the photo. Ace hardware sells this
glue. Multigrip is the name. It is acetone based and I have added
titanium oxide micronized powder (ebay) to make it white. About 10%
will do it. It holds ivories well but does not pull off much wood when
removed, much like original hide glue. It can also be heated and will
allow removal.

It also works well for felt dampers etc.

Shown un-tinted here.

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc

[Joseph Garrett]

Doug,
I'll get some and try it. The one thing good is that there is no water/moisture in it that would promote warpage. I don't think I'd use it on dampers though. PVC-E is my choice in the field. (Aleene's Tacky Glue) It works a lot like a contact or hide glue, either gets an immediate tack to hold the backed felt to the wood. As PVC-E is designed to glue dissimilar materials, it works as advertised.<G> Also, it remains somewhat flexible which has a side effect of absorbing energy, which, imo, aids the damping process.
Best,
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Douglas Gregg]

Joe said,

PVC-E is my choice in the field. (Aleene's Tacky Glue) It works a lot
like a contact or hide glue, either gets an immediate tack to hold the
backed felt to the wood. As PVC-E is designed to glue dissimilar
materials, it works as advertised.<G> Also, it remains somewhat
flexible which has a side effect of absorbing energy, which, imo, aids
the damping process.
Best, Joe

I like PVC-E and Tacky. Multigrip has all the same features except it
is faster because it is acetone based. Another glue for the glue case
but maybe better in some cases, especially for ivory. In the field, I
no longer carry PVC-E. I still have tacky.

Doug Gregg

[Isaac OLEG]

For damper felts on some wood pvc-e fails after some time. (for all woods that are a tad oily by nature) idem for the hammer heads if they are in <<<<<<<<<<<

Fish glue is more secure in my opinion  (the cold quailty) 

[richa...@comcast.net]

Thanks Greg, just in time for the Steinway B dampers I'll be doing today .

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com
609-677-0444

> <adhesiv010needles.JPG>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 1:56 AM, Isaac OLEG wrote:
> For damper felts on some wood pvc-e fails after some time. (for all
> woods that are a tad oily by nature) idem for the hammer heads if
> they are in <<<<<<<<<<<

Is this another of those things you've heard, and pass on as fact? I
wonder if anyone on the planet has actually observed this. Hands? I,
personally, have never seen a PVCE joint fail because it didn't stick.
Anyone else??

Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
Not on this front! Proves my initial assessment of this "tech". Sigh! (which I caught holy hell for, btw!)
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2013 7:35 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue
>

[Duaine Hechler]

-----Original Message-----

From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
Sent: Oct 16, 2013 7:35 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

On 10/16/2013 1:56 AM, Isaac OLEG wrote:

For damper felts on some wood pvc-e fails after some time. (for all
woods that are a tad oily by nature) idem for the hammer heads if
they are in <<<<<<<<<<<

Is this another of those things you've heard, and pass on as fact? I 
wonder if anyone on the planet has actually observed this. Hands? I, 
personally, have never seen a PVCE joint fail because it didn't stick. 
Anyone else??

Ron N

For this reason - possible failure - I add a single drop of thin CA glue to the area before I put the two pieces together

-- 
Duaine Hechler
Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ - Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding
(314) 838-5587 / dahe...@att.net / www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com
Home & Business user of Linux - 13 years

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 11:00 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, Not on this front! Proves my initial assessment of this "tech".
> Sigh! (which I caught holy hell for, btw!)

I don't know that it "proves" anything, but when so many posts contain
some fact or truth that no one else ever heard of or experienced, I do
wonder. I occasionally point out something that anyone can verify by
looking at it, and I'm a crank. Why don't people question this stiff?
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Duaine,

NOOOOOOO!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Duaine Hechler
Sent: Oct 16, 2013 9:15 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

-----Original Message----- From: Ron Nossaman Sent: Oct 16, 2013 7:35 AMTo: pian...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glueOn 10/16/2013 1:56 AM, Isaac OLEG wrote:For damper felts on some wood pvc-e fails after some time. (for allwoods that are a tad oily by nature) idem for the hammer heads ifthey are in <<<<<<<<<<-- Duaine HechlerPiano, Player Piano, Pump Organ - Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding(314) 838-5587 / dahe...@att.net / www.hechlerpianoandorgan.comHome & Business user of Linux - 13 years

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,

"..stiff?" Freudian slip? Or? <G>
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2013 9:30 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 12:05 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron,
>
> "..stiff?" Freudian slip? Or? <G>
> Joe

Looks like, doesn't it? Unfortunate typo.
Ron N

[Isaac OLEG]

SHit, just noticed dampers literally falling from they ebony head and also on vertical pianos.

[Isaac OLEG]

After a certain number of years - may be 10-15 so only the next tech will have the trouble

[Isaac OLEG]

Never used in good factories, where they have other use for  good PVC+-E indeed (and even for felts, but not dampers)

Le jeudi 17 octobre 2013 00:07:43 UTC+2, Isaac OLEG a écrit :

[Isaac OLEG]

I may have some pics of that... sorry. 

[Isaac OLEG]

Talking of damper FELT, not damper heads, where it may be appropriate despite the felt.

Lets say there are different qualities of PBC E if you wish I just can relate what I've seen and that I had to correct

[David Boyce]

Has PVC-E been around that long then?

David.
www.davidboyce.co.uk

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 5:41 PM, David Boyce wrote:
> Has PVC-E been around that long then?

Absolutely. Player piano Company here in Wichita sold it in the 70s as
#320 plastic glue. And I've NEVER seen a PVCE joint fail from loss of
adhesion. Inappropriate usage, yes, like the suggestions I've read on
list to splice piano wire by gluing the ends together with CA, but never
loss of adhesion in a low stress joint like dampers. I've seen a lot of
dampers fall off, but the glue residue was most definitely not PVCE,
more like a contact cement. I don't doubt that Isaac saw dampers fall
off, but I most seriously doubt they were glued with PVCE.
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 5:07 PM, Isaac OLEG wrote:
> SHit, just noticed dampers literally falling from they ebony head and
> also on vertical pianos.

So have I, but it wasn't PVCE glue.
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/16/2013 5:20 PM, Isaac OLEG wrote:
> Talking of damper FELT, not damper heads, where it may be appropriate
> despite the felt.
>
> Lets say there are different qualities of PBC E if you wish I just can
> relate what I've seen and that I had to correct

I question that you saw PVCE at all.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Yes. However that is so much B.S.! I've had occasion to remove things that I have glued with it 20+ years ago. Not a problem that I recall.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: David Boyce
Sent: Oct 16, 2013 3:41 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Has PVC-E been around that long then?

David.
www.davidboyce.co.uk


On 16/10/2013 23:09, Isaac OLEG wrote:
> After a certain number of years - may be 10-15 so only the next tech
> will have the trouble

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

As, do I.
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>

>Sent: Oct 16, 2013 4:47 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue
>

[Isaac OLEG]

It is very surprising that you said so considering the amount of repairs and woodworking you may have done.

The failed dampers I was as surprised as you , I do use cold hide  there (PVCE is considered as the glue gun, in an action, used the same) but did not had the opportunity to think of the efficiency of a gluing with PVCE there.

A tech would not use contact cement to glue dampers, it is more expensive than PVCE and leave you no time

On the dampers I have seen falling (and I replaced) on was on a Steiwnay, 

the glue was in the felt, not in the wood, as usual when PVCE glue fail it leaves a clean neat surface, and you see hows little the glue entered the wood.

This is not the glue of choice for exotic woods, mahogany, rosewood - ebony contain oxalic acid, may be the cause of the fail of glue.

It is clearly stated on the manual , if you do not trust me. specific versions of PVCE are used for those.

I do not write that to agressive to anyone just so people know it is not as secure as expected. 

I use a very good PVCE the same used by Renner to hold some parts together.

Only to glue bottom cloth on keyframes, shank rest cloths some cushions or wood /felt 

When one think of it I would not call the damper glue line a low stress situation. the dampers are subjected to tons of vibes in permanence. possibly the reason why those faled joins (the wood may have been contaminated, the glue was of lesser quality, there are plenty second or 3d grade PVCE glues on the market)

Renner state that a mahogany molding shank on a  can only be glued with hide glue. Who am I to know ?

Regards

I.O

[Isaac OLEG]

You seem to have a lot to provide yourself, it go so easily out of your mouth !

When I state something I just have read I say it, when I write somthing that was said to me I say who is the source.

Elsewhere I just have seen the case.

In cabinet making PVCE is well known as the first glue to fail. While indeed there are professional qualities that are better.

The glues used in constructions are generally another category if longevity and resistance to wood geometry changes is expected. 

[Isaac OLEG]

Basics of PVC E are that one of the surface at last must be accept water. In the case of soft felt it is easy to have most of the glue in the felt, and not enough on the wood side.

[Debra Legg]

Is it possible that you are confusing PVC-E with various makes and grades of PVAs (yellow wood glue, correct me if I'm wrong)?

Deb

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/17/2013 2:28 PM, Debra Legg wrote:
> Is it possible that you are confusing PVC-E with various makes and
> grades of PVAs (yellow wood glue, correct me if I'm wrong)?

That's what I assume. What he's describing is nowhere near PVCE. And
before it starts another round of discussion without information, there
are white PVAs as well as yellow, and not all white PVAs are soft like
Elmer's Glue All.
Ron N

[Debra Legg]

Yep, thanks for the specifics, Ron.  I didn't want to venture with too much info in case my PVA assumptions were incorrect!

Deb

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/17/2013 4:11 PM, Debra Legg wrote:
> Yep, thanks for the specifics, Ron. I didn't want to venture with too
> much info in case my PVA assumptions were incorrect!

I understand, but I've just intercepted too many lectures on how white
glues are not to be used for woodworking, creep, are rubbery, or any
number of random nonsense assertions. The yellow in the aliphatic resin
woodworking glues we all know, love, and wallow in regularly is a dye
added to an otherwise more or less white glue, so color is no indication
of a glue's properties. I'd be reluctant to use blue green hide glue,
sure, but people make vastly ignorant sweeping statements about glues
all the time. I was hoping to head off the second chapter of that book
up front. I didn't mean any harm if I stepped on your intent, but some
folks have tougher intents than others.

To tough intents and informed statements,
Ron N

[Debra Legg]

No problem.  My intent is intact.  You went where I dared not!

Deb

[Douglas Gregg]

I would be surprised if PVC-E is available in Europe. The selection of
products is limited compared to the US. I spent about 6 months there a
couple times particularly in Holland and was surprised at the lack of
DIY materials that you could find. a hardware store or auto store was
even hard to find. I don't think I ever saw either. I did see a good
paint store. It was really limited.

Doug Gregg

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/17/2013 7:30 PM, Douglas Gregg wrote:
> I would be surprised if PVC-E is available in Europe. The selection of
> products is limited compared to the US. I spent about 6 months there a
> couple times particularly in Holland and was surprised at the lack of
> DIY materials that you could find. a hardware store or auto store was
> even hard to find. I don't think I ever saw either. I did see a good
> paint store. It was really limited.

This has come up before. I don't know what it was he saw, but from what
he described, I doubt he's ever seen PVCE.
Ron N

[Isaac OLEG]

Not at all, now it is not always easy to see what glue have been used, PVA or PVC E but the translucent PVC E glue film is very noticeable.

Water soluble.

As a basis I do what piano factories have prooved valid. ANd glues like PVC E they do not use for long time under stress situations because those conditions are never tested for glues, the creapp or eventual breakeage is not tested that way. 

SO you will find Casein glues, Urea formalehyde glues, resorcinol  

personally I use hide glue/fish glue for most of my gluing, and PVCE for certain things.

But if I want to glue a cloth (as mortises) I need a soft quality that will not enter the loth much.

Doug Yes in the DIY shops you will not find roducts for the professionals here, but as the products we need are not complicated and are sold under their simplest name, the professional can find what he need.

You seem to ga by the brand, without so much attention to what is the formula, so the brand can sell you the same forumula under a new name and I strongly suspect it happens very often.

The PVCE-glues availeable in France or Germany have different use and  formulas depending of the type of gluing.

PVCE is known as "white glue" it is the most common wood glue for hobbyists and professionals .

Then the formula of the ones sold to professionals are different and they are better. May be I have seen dampers glued with hobbyist glue.

But the names and references are +- the same in 20 years, as for Titebond. with upgrades certainly when something new is discovered.

Many products are not sold to DIY because of health hazard, and even our food is somehow. The consumer is considered as being able to put his life in danger by using innapropriates products or eating BS.

That makes less cancers and blood diseases in the end 

Hide glue also is not the ideal glue for anything 

[Isaac OLEG]

PVA (aliphatic) is not common in France.

Le jeudi 17 octobre 2013 21:28:13 UTC+2, Debbie a écrit :

[Isaac OLEG]

BTW the Vinyl based glues are thermoplastic , they soften with heat. 

This afternoon I will again file a white key on a Shimmel grand, the glue soften under the heat due to the location of the piano, some keys moved 2 mm due to the traction of the fingers.

[David Boyce]

On 18/10/2013 01:30, Douglas Gregg wrote:
> I would be surprised if PVC-E is available in Europe. The selection of
> products is limited compared to the US. I spent about 6 months there a
> couple times particularly in Holland and was surprised at the lack of
> DIY materials that you could find. a hardware store or auto store was
> even hard to find.

That's interesting. I think it may depend on which part of Europe you
are in, and whether there is a tredition of owning your own home, or of
renting. It may be that in Holland therre isn't much tradition of DIY
home repair. In France "bricolage" stores (DIY stores) seem quite
popular. In the UK, where over the last 40 years there has been a big
shift from renting to owning, DIY stores are very popular. Mind you,
the big chain stores are not necessarily the best places to get stuff. I
have over the years found local businesses that are better value for
lots of stuff.

I've never seen PVC-E glue in any store though. I bought mine from one
of the US suppliers. The UK piano supply houses don't seem (yet) to
stock PVC-E.

Best regards,

David.

[David Boyce]

On 18/10/2013 01:30, Douglas Gregg wrote:

> I would be surprised if PVC-E is available in Europe.

I just did a search on Ebay.co.uk and the only sellers of PVC-E are from
the USA. Nothing at all on Amazon.co.uk

Best regards,

David.

[David Boyce]

On 18/10/2013 08:37, Isaac OLEG wrote:
>
> PVCE is known as "white glue" it is the most common wood glue for
> hobbyists and professionals .

I think there is some confusion here! In the UK - the only part of
Europe (however one defines Europe) which has English as the native
tongue and therefore talks of "white glue", I assure you that "white
glue" is NOT PVC-E!

The term "White Glue" as used in the UK, refers to PVA (Poly Vinyl
Acetate). Various formulations of it in various brands (including
Titebond) are standard wood glues. The glue everybody knows and buys,
whatever the brand.

PVC-E is not available in the UK. PVC-E is Poly Vinyl Chloride with
latex added.

As for "yellow" wood glue: that is a formulation of PVA, with colour added.

I was at a seminar back in the 1980s with David Martin, than the head
engineer of Herrburger Brooks the action makers. At that time, he said
they still favoured traditional hide glue, which if used consistently
with attention to viscosity, had all the properties they needed. Sadly
Herrburger Brooks are gone now though.

Anyway, "White Glue" is NOT the PVC-E! And PVC-E glue is NOT "the most
common wood glue for hobbyists and professionals". That's PVA. PVC-E
is almost unknown in the UK.

Best regards,

David.

[Debra Legg]

"PVCE is known as "white glue" it is the most common wood glue for hobbyists and professionals ."

Again...white glue, wood glue, yellow glue, Elmers, Titebond, whatever........PVA.

PVC-E is not a wood glue. (well, shouldn't be)

Deb

[David Boyce]

There is an interesting discussion of PVA here. White and Yellow, and
modified with aliphatic resin, etc.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Comparing_White.html

Note that PVC-E is not being discussed at all in the above article, just
PVA.

It is hard to find online any discussion/description at all of PVC-E.
Wikipedia has an article about glue types, and in the list, PVC-E is one
of very few that are not clickable to their own info page! It simply
says "Polyvinyl chloride emulsion (PVCE) - a water-miscible emulsion
that polymerizes as it cures"

The only other mentions of PVC-E online seem to be in connection with
piano discussions.

Best regards,

David.

[Ron Nossaman]

All quite mysterious. I've wondered for a long time about the primary
industrial use of PVCE. For us to be able to buy it in the miniscule
quantities we use (even if there are a lot of us) there has to be a high
volume industrial use for the stuff somewhere or it wouldn't be produced
at all. And that use seems to be primarily in the US. Any idea what that
might be? Does it all go to Area 51?
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/18/2013 5:06 AM, David Boyce wrote:

> I've never seen PVC-E glue in any store though.

Me either, at least not labeled as such. Aleen's Tacky glue's MSDS says
it's a polymer emulsion, with no other information, and could very well
be PVCE. Even my original source of the stuff didn't call it PVCE. That
didn't happen until the big piano supply houses picked it up, giving us
one more "white" glue to endlessly confuse and debate. Awfully nice
stuff though, in it's place. The glue, that is, not the eternal confusion.
Ron N

[lcl...@yahoo.com]

I believe that Aleen's* and PVCE are about the same stuff. (From the "aroma", working characteristics, and etc.) Though Aleen's is more useful, IMHO, due to a higher viscosity. I've never later had problems, either, removing felts glued on by it (Aleen's) with a little heat/steam and scraping. (Certainly no worse than with hide glue-and it doesn't carry the risk of making glued-on felts "clicky" by soaking in and hardening them, if applieda little too generously.) I'm sure they rate relatively low on the toxicity scale, but I'd still advise good ventilation/gloves if using "en masse": as all pvc's carry an alleged cancer risk. Thumpe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

---

From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Sent: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 11:59:56 AM

[David Boyce]

On 18/10/2013 12:48, Ron Nossaman wrote:
> I've wondered for a long time about the primary industrial use of
> PVCE. For us to be able to buy it in the miniscule quantities we use
> (even if there are a lot of us) there has to be a high volume
> industrial use for the stuff somewhere or it wouldn't be produced at
> all. And that use seems to be primarily in the US. Any idea what that
> might be? Does it all go to Area 51?
> Ron N

I had a moment of reflection a few years ago in the college where I
taught, when I was helping the makeup artists take some photographs
(deliciously gruesome wound makeup). I noticed that they had a plastic
gallon container of latex (water soluble). And I wondered, what would
happen if you mixed some of that with some PVA white glue......

But PVC-E is 'sposed to be PVC not PVA. But I dunno.....

It's like Protek CLP - I don't think that is manufactured for pianos. I
think it is Break-Free CLP gun lubricant re-packaged. But I am open to
correction....

Best wishes,

David.

[lcl...@yahoo.com]

P.S. Here is the explanation for that "asterisk to nowhere" in my last post.* *As Ron correctly stated, it is "Aleen's" not "Aileen's". (Those who would spell it "Aileen's" may be thinking of Billy Murray's wife.) Thumpe *I have been noticing a preponderance of "Asterisks-to-Nowhere" on printed matter, lately; and find it quite annoying: NOT a thing I'd wish on anyone here!

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

---

From: lcl...@yahoo.com <lcl...@yahoo.com>;
To: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com>;

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Sent: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 12:22:24 PM

[lcl...@yahoo.com]

Well, most respectfully, David: in the EU, as I've quite often heard, chemicals are allowed to be used once proven safe. Whereas, in the U.S., they are allowed to be used until proven dangerous. (i.e.- enough humans are killed or maimed by them that a concerted effort is launched in a class-action suit to have them investigated - which will result in the Great Big Corporations using every ounce of subterfuge they can, to subvert the process! As did the tobacco industry.)

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

---

From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>;
To: <lcl...@yahoo.com>;

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Sent: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 12:36:01 PM

Not sure about that, Thumpe.  I think it's more to do with limited demand.  As long as the relevant Manufacturers Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) was suplied, I don't think it would be a problem. There's nothing especially toxic in PVC-E as far as I can tell.  Best, David. On 18/10/2013 13:33, lcl...@yahoo.com wrote: I suspect that it has more to do with the EU's far greater restrictions on un-tested chemical usage.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/18/2013 7:22 AM, lcl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I believe that Aleen's* and PVCE are about the same stuff. (From the
> "aroma", working characteristics, and etc.) Though Aleen's is more
> useful, IMHO, due to a higher viscosity.

I have no reason to doubt it's PVCE, I just have no verification either way.

> I've never later had problems,
> either, removing felts glued on by it (Aleen's) with a little heat/steam
> and scraping. (Certainly no worse than with hide glue-and it doesn't
> carry the risk of making glued-on felts "clicky" by soaking in and
> hardening them, if applieda little too generously.)

I use PVCE for key tops, and little else. Hot hide is my overwhelming
preference for felt and leather work on wood. Never had a problem or
even a risk of it "soaking" the felt and clicking, though I have seen it
in others' work. But then I've seen lots of glues badly used by others,
and done plenty of dumb things myself. A few minutes spent learning to
use any glue rather than relying entirely on it's inherent properties is
time usefully spent.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>

>Sent: Oct 18, 2013 4:59 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue
>

>On 10/18/2013 5:06 AM, David Boyce wrote:
>
>> I've never seen PVC-E glue in any store though.
>
>Me either, at least not labeled as such. Aleen's Tacky glue's MSDS says
>it's a polymer emulsion, with no other information, and could very well
>be PVCE. Even my original source of the stuff didn't call it PVCE. That
>didn't happen until the big piano supply houses picked it up, giving us
>one more "white" glue to endlessly confuse and debate. Awfully nice
>stuff though, in it's place. The glue, that is, not the eternal confusion.
>Ron N

If only those "..big piano supply houses.." would put the damned stuff in a decent dispenser!
Best,
Joe

[Joseph Garrett]

Oh crap! Here it comes! Someone please kick the soap box out from under the Thumpe(r)!?!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: lcl...@yahoo.com
Sent: Oct 18, 2013 5:51 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Well, most respectfully, David: in the EU, as I've quite often heard, chemicals are allowed to be used once proven safe. Whereas, in the U.S., they are allowed to be used until proven dangerous.
(i.e.- enough humans are killed or maimed by them that a concerted effort is launched in a class-action suit to have them investigated - which will result in the Great Big Corporations using every ounce of subterfuge they can, to subvert the process! As did the tobacco industry.)

Thumpe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[lcl...@yahoo.com]

Well, Joe....... sorry for assaulting your sensitive ears........... but on this one I'm 100% flat-on right. That IS how it's done in the U.S.. (Which is why so many U.S. products are banned in the E.U..) What's even worse, is that some of these chemicals become synergistically 1,000 times more toxic when combined. (As determined by an EPA study done at the close of Clinton's Presidency -- for some reason not continued in the next administration, though.)

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

---

From: Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Sent: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 3:20:23 PM

[Joseph Garrett]

Sigh!

-----Original Message-----
From: lcl...@yahoo.com
Sent: Oct 18, 2013 9:34 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Ivory and felt glue

Well, Joe....... sorry for assaulting your sensitive ears........... but on this one I'm 100% flat-on right.
That IS how it's done in the U.S.. (Which is why so many U.S. products are banned in the E.U..)
What's even worse, is that some of these chemicals become synergistically 1,000 times more toxic when combined. (As determined by an EPA study done at the close of Clinton's Presidency -- for some reason not continued in the next administration, though.)

Thumpe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Isaac OLEG]

well my bad Ron

indeed I was confusing both kinds , inverting 

I seem to have that kind of glue intended for book making, it stay soft somehow and does not smell at all as the PVA

That glue seem to be the base ingredient to make PVC, it is sold by the ton in that case. 

May be not common because of health hazard, for what I could read on the composition (no Rubber, only Vinyl chloride, it must be more tacky than wood glues.)

I will know better in a few days. Both glue are PTA resins , the same kind of glue in the end.

http://www.mrcplast.com/showpolymer/pvc-e.html

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-polyvinyl-chloride.htm

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/emulsion-pvc.html

about 900 USD metric ton, and one of the most common product (on earth) due to the high useage of PVC

I believe that is the one sold to glue the key cover.

Do you have written in the manual or on the bottle, that it is PVC-E ?

[Isaac OLEG]

if it is really the product it is used to make plastic sheets, or supple tubings, or make waterproof fabrics, among others.

The resin is sold in powder also 

There are carcigenic products used in the process, but I did not read of health hazard for the emulsion.

The amount of hardening may differ from the PVA, hence the use as tacky soft glue.

In the field, why not, but Titebond cold would be preferred.

Glueing felts with PVA ,  a good PVA glue joint is supposed to be thin. and some pressure added during setting, so even if I sometime use it for backrail cloth or others similar, it is a little abuse.and if too much water of the glue is absorbed in the cloth the joint is not good.

I will have an answer, as I asked 2 main glue makers. on Wednesday , not many persons availeable I  will need to call someone on monday. 

Le mardi 15 octobre 2013 20:25:03 UTC+2, Douglas Gregg a écrit :

I posted this a while ago without the photo. Ace hardware sells this
glue. Multigrip is the name. It is acetone based and I have added
titanium oxide micronized powder (ebay) to make it white. About 10%
will do it. It holds ivories well but does not pull off much wood when
removed, much like original hide glue. It can also be heated and will
allow removal.

It also works well for felt dampers etc.

Shown un-tinted here.

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc