WNG composite vertical action

[Regi Hedahl]

WNG is now selling assembled composite vertical piano actions. I'm wondering if any of you have gone this route? If so, what was your impressions? Any thoughts on having to convert from stickers to dowel capstans? The reason I ask is because I'm putting together an estimate for rebuilding a family heirloom. It's an old 55” tall P.A. Stark that needs everything.

Regi Hedahl

[Ron Nossaman]

The only thing I'm wondering is how to convert a 6" sticker to a dowel
capstan. That is, unless WN&G is making adjustable stickers too.
Ron N

[Will Truitt]

Hi Regi:

 

I am going to be doing my first one in about a month to six weeks on a 52” McPhail upright. It is also a total rebuild, done to pass down to family members for reasons of sentiment (not practicality).  The brass rails are shot and need to be replaced, and the whole WNG action is actually price competitive with doing a total rebuild on the action using conventional parts and new rails.  Plus it will be fun!

 

I suggest you give Bruce Clark a call at Mason & Hamlin.  He designed the action.  I talked with him about a month ago, and he was very generous with his time and very helpful.  You will need to determine if the WNG action can be retrofit to this action, it won’t fit every piano.  I did talk with Bruce about converting from stickers to dowels, it can likely be done. 

 

Will Truitt

[Joseph Garrett]

Will,

A question: since when are WNG parts  "conventional parts"?

As to converting from stickers to dowel capstans, yes it can be done, but the end result will be far from optimal, imo.

Regards,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/30/2015 7:49 PM, Will Truitt wrote:

> I did talk with Bruce about converting from stickers to dowels,
> it can likely be done.

In a smaller piano, sure. Regi's 55 incher will be swinging an awfully
LONG dowel.

But you're right, it would be fun.
Ron N

[Will Truitt]

Joe:

 

I was comparing WNG parts to “conventional” wooden parts. 

 

I was making no judgment pro or con on sticker versus capstan on this piano or that, only stating that it can be done within the WNG system.  Just  passing on info.  Regi can decide as he sees fit.

 

Will

[Will Truitt]

I am looking forward to the challenges of adapting a new top action to the older keys and set up. There is a very elaborate set of instructions that Bruce drew up, from which to work. It still requires me to think and understand what is going on. If I do my end of the work properly, I am inclined to believe that my customer will get a much better performing piano in terms of the action than rebuilding on the original action frame with all new parts. Even if I were going to do that, I would change the damper system to a more modern configuration.

Will

[Terry Farrell]

Curious minds want to know: what is the configuration of this less-than-modern damper system?  Hmmmmmmmm?

Oh, and a word from the wise:  

 

Terry Farrell

[Will Truitt]

Which one of them is you, Terry?  J   And is that a McDonalds behind you?  You’re eating too much junkfood and it has gone to your brain!  Your mind certainly is curious.

 

I don’t need no stinkin’ pichers. 

 

Just a matter of replacing those fetal- sized dampers of the older pianos with something larger that has more damping horsepower.  Think something akin to a modern Yamaha U1 or U3 damper system and that will be close. 

 

I’ve done that a bunch of times in the past, and the damping certainly is better.

 

Will

 

 

 

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Terry Farrell
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 8:06 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

 

Curious minds want to know: what is the configuration of this less-than-modern damper system?  Hmmmmmmmm?

[Will Truitt]

Gosh, Ron, now that I think of it, you're right. Do you think flagpoling might be an issue? :-)

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:04 PM

To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

[Randy Magnus]

I was under the impression that in the not-too-distant future they would come out with an action with stickers.
Randy Mangus

Sent from my iPhone

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/1/2015 11:15 AM, 'Randy Magnus' via pianotech wrote:
> I was under the impression that in the not-too-distant future they
> would come out with an action with stickers.

If they plan to accommodate full size old uprights, I don't see how they
can avoid it. Since so very few get full rebuilds, I don't know if the
market will be big enough to justify the manufacturing costs. It's a
little different deal than producing a top action for grands, with so
many different heights involved. Just a sticker pinned wippen, and
adjustable stickers with a choice of abstract lengths would take care of
most of the problems until you get to the brass flange rail stuff.
Configurable brackets and/or a configurable mounting system would make
replacement actions possible. It would be a fun design project.
Ron N

[Regi Hedahl]

As far as making a 6" long dowel capstan work, how about adding a pins to connect the dowel to the whippen heel?

Regi Hedahl

[Terry Farrell]

Ahhh, I’ll ignore the first part…….

Okay, usual small dampers. Gotcha. Have you ever read through Bill Spurlock’s paper on vertical damper replacement? If by chance not, I highly recommend it - very thorough and very good!

Jurgen has ready-made loooooong mono and bicord dampers for verticals. Again, very nice. When I first started improving bass dampers on verticals I was working on, I made them myself. But after finding out that Jurgen has lovely bass dampers - and, if I recall correctly, he will even make custom lengths - I use his - much easier that way!

Maybe some stinkin’ pichers after all is completed?  ;-)

Terry Farrell  

On Oct 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Will Truitt <sur...@metrocast.net> wrote:

Which one of them is you, Terry?  J   And is that a McDonalds behind you?  You’re eating too much junkfood and it has gone to your brain!  Your mind certainly is curious.

 

I don’t need no stinkin’ pichers.  

 

Just a matter of replacing those fetal- sized dampers of the older pianos with something larger that has more damping horsepower.  Think something akin to a modern Yamaha U1 or U3 damper system and that will be close.  

 

I’ve done that a bunch of times in the past, and the damping certainly is better. 

 

Will

 

 

 

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Terry Farrell
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 8:06 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

 

Curious minds want to know: what is the configuration of this less-than-modern damper system?  Hmmmmmmmm?

 

Oh, and a word from the wise:  

 <image001.jpg>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/1/2015 12:27 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
> As far as making a 6" long dowel capstan work, how about adding a pins
> to connect the dowel to the whippen heel?

Like stabbed into the wip as an index? Might work, but you need a hinge
at the bottom where it attaches to the key. Rocker capstans with
stickers? That would, and did work, but you still need different length
or configurable stickers. The old original sticker system worked very
well, as near as I can tell. If a "universal" configurable bracket and
mounting system can be reasonably developed, replacement actions would
be fairly simple. I don't see any reason it couldn't be done except cost
for the probably small market.
Ron N

[Regi Hedahl]

Here is the Bill Spurlock article on vertical damper replacement that Terry refers to.

http://www.spurlocktools.com/index_htm_files/vertdampers.pdf

And here is the link to where to buy the extra long dampers.  I also notice that Jurgen also sells those brass damper blocks.

http://www.pianofortesupply.com/parts/upright-action-parts/upright-damper-parts/upright-damper-parts-2/

Regi Hedahl

[Will Truitt]

I just talked to Jerry at WNG because I wanted to get his permission to post the link to the starter pack with instructions and documents related to the purchase and installation of the upright top action.  I have WNG's permission to share this, so here is the link.  It will take you to a half dozen or so documents related to the ordering and installation:

 

https://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/media/WNG%20Upright%20Action%20Starter%20Pack.zip

 

I think those who are interested will find it a good read.  The pictures shared below are screen captures from the upright installation instructions 

 

As for stickers and capstans, WNG is offering only a dowel type capstan at this time. 

 

 

Notice that the bottom of the whippens allow you to customize the location of the capstan heel to customize the key ratio, as one can do in the grands

 

 

 

Here you will see that, without creating another action frame with a rail to accommodate the sticker flanges, it is not possible.  To speak to Ron’s comments, Instead of a sticker pinned whippen, it seems like sticker heel could be made to be inserted into the bottom of the whippen, and adjustable stickers made.  I don’t see that accommodating sticker type actions would be any great difficulty if the market is worthy.  

 

 

The system was first designed primarily as a retrofit to go into old Steinway uprights, as you can see above.  If certain parameters are met, it can be adapted to other uprights also.

 

Will Truitt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 1:06 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

 

On 10/1/2015 11:15 AM, 'Randy Magnus' via pianotech wrote:

[Will Truitt]

Yes, I have read through Bill’s paper and I used to make my own.  Much happier buying stuff that I can easily adapt.  I use Jurgen’s stuff, always happy to give him my business, he’s such a good fellow.  Pianotek  also sells treble and bass dampers on the wood blocks, and the round damper blocks to go with them.  I have used them also, less work.

 

Yeh, some pichers when it’s done.  Will be a while yet. 

[Regi Hedahl]

Yes, I called WNG and was told that the development of an action with stickers is in the works. Meanwhile, I am standing by for a solution that WNG is going to provide.

Regi Hedahl

[Will Truitt]

I suspect that would involve some fairly tall wooden blocks at the back of the key, into which the dowel capstan wire is inserted.

Will Truitt

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Regi Hedahl
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:04 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

[Joseph Garrett]

Which would provide one with extreme flag-poling and high friction = lousy touch!
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Regi Hedahl]

The solution I'm looking for is a way to adapt the old stickers onto the new action.

Regi Hedahl

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/2/2015 11:13 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Which would provide one with extreme flag-poling and high friction = lousy touch!

And the capstan scrubs the wippen pad much more. The thing maintaining
alignment of the capstan to the wippen is the key balance rail pin and
center key bushing. Put the contact up on a long moment arm and a little
bushing wear moves the capstan a lot. If the keys dog leg at the section
breaks, this is worse at that point. I've seen very long dowel capstans
slap together during play.

With stickers, the capstan slides on the sticker pad very little,
there's no dependence on key bushings for alignment under playing
stress, and everything moves without flopping around. The geometry is
better.
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/2/2015 11:30 AM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
> The solution I'm looking for is a way to adapt the old stickers onto the
> new action.

There are at least a couple of options. A separate assembly with
abstracts top and bottom with a sticker in the middle spanning the
distance between capstan and wippen, but attached to neither, is one.
This mounts in the piano and the action sits on top of it. Or extensions
to the action brackets that hold a sticker rail like the original
configuration. Push rods like players use is another, but friction would
be a problem. There are more possibilities, but these are the easiest,
and let the action be removed and reinstalled easily.
Ron N

[Will Truitt]

I think people have missed the point that I was making. And that was, if a WNG action frame/rail/parts were going to be retrofit to this tall 56" upright, GIVEN THE PRESENT SINGULAR CONFIGURATION AVAILABLE NOW, the only adaptation that could be made would be use dowel capstans on wires set into blocks of sufficient height. There's no provision on the frame for a rail to attach the sticker flanges, nor is a sticker set up available for the bottom of the modular whippen. So my guess is that WNG's solution would involve something like I described. I'll wait to hear what WNG offers Regi .

Whether that is better or worse or sufficiently good was not something I was speaking to.

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 12:51 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

[David Kroenlein]

Why dont you just repin tbe  old stickers?

Sent from my iPhone

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/2/2015 1:03 PM, Will Truitt wrote:
> I think people have missed the point that I was making. And that
> was, if a WNG action frame/rail/parts were going to be retrofit to
> this tall 56" upright, GIVEN THE PRESENT SINGULAR CONFIGURATION
> AVAILABLE NOW, the only adaptation that could be made would be use
> dowel capstans on wires set into blocks of sufficient height.

Yes, we know. What you said was quite obvious.

> There's no provision on the frame for a rail to attach the sticker
> flanges, nor is a sticker set up available for the bottom of the
> modular whippen.

Yes, we know.

> So my guess is that WNG's solution would involve
> something like I described.

Likewise, lacking an available alternative.

> I'll wait to hear what WNG offers Regi

As will we all.

> Whether that is better or worse or sufficiently good was not
> something I was speaking to.

Joe and I were, since whether or not it will work well is maybe
something to consider before doing it.
Ron N

[Will Truitt]

Indeed.

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 3:08 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action

[Joseph Garrett]

Yes. Indeed.
joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Will Truitt <sur...@metrocast.net>

>Sent: Oct 2, 2015 12:22 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com

>Subject: RE: [pianotech] WNG composite vertical action
>
>Indeed.

[Regi Hedahl]

Here's a tall Steingräber & Söhne that combines both stickers and dowels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgKslpEHzt0
Regi Hedahl

[David Kroenlein]

Never seen one of those before!

Sent from my iPhone

[Daniel P]

Ping ping - any updates on adapting new WNG upright actions into tall, old pianos with sticker-type actions?  I have an "interesting" piano, a Statham & Co ~ late 1890's 3-panel Victorian made in San Francisco.  Beautiful case and plays and sounds reasonably well for a 130 year old Sylvester Tower action, but the action is a pain to keep alive, misaligned hammers, bad dampers, slow repeat rates etc.  It is quite tall at 52-54" and I'd need ~6" of capstan-dowel height on the keybacks.  

As of 2023, the WNG instructions still say sticker-type actions are not supported but it may be possible to convert to capstan-dowel.  

Option a (in my dreams) - WNG has secretly made a carbon fiber tube sticker and flange that goes in place of the wippen heel, and a rail to support the flanges that attaches to their action brackets.  

Option b - Regi or others figured out how to re-use the existing stickers and create a rail to support them

Option c - someone else here has a better idea!  

Thanks, 

Daniel