Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
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Regi Hedahl
Oct 9, 2015, 4:33:03 PM10/9/15
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It has been pretty quiet around here so I put together a recording so you can hear the difference between the Renner Blue and Ronsen Wurzen hammers on a 1978 Steinway B. While changing over to the Ronsen hammers, I also installed a set of WNG action parts. Other changes included bringing down the hammer weights as much as possible and removing nearly 5 lbs of lead out of the keysticks. The Renner hammers I took off had very little use.
You can skip to 1:55 to hear the Ronsen hammers if you wish.
David Boyce
Oct 9, 2015, 5:20:15 PM10/9/15
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it you playing? Both hammers nice, but the Ronsens sound absolutely
perfect to my ear, for that Impromptu.
Best regards,
David.
Joseph Garrett
Oct 9, 2015, 5:48:11 PM10/9/15
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Regi,
Thanks for the post in this regard. However, that is really not a fair "comparison" since you didn't just change out the hammers. The WNG system is way stiffer than a wooden system, therefore the sound will be different just for that reason. I've done experiments with hex shanks as opposed to round shanks, (both wood). That gave a much brighter tone just with the hex shanks. So with the ultimately stiffer carbon fiber, spindly shanks I would expect even more brightness than either of those even while using the same hammers.<G>
I have heard two, brand new, identical Mason and Hamlin grands, one with Renner parts and the other with WNG parts. Since the pianos were side by side, I was able to really feel and hear the difference of those two items. The WNG was not to my liking. The touch was brittle and tiring to play. The tone was brighter on the WNG piano. Of course, no two pianos are ever really exactly the same, so even that was not an absolutely perfect comparison.
All interesting stuff though.<G>
Best,
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl
Sent: Oct 9, 2015 1:33 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
It has been pretty quiet around here so I put together a recording so you can hear the difference between the Renner Blue and Ronsen Wurzen hammers on a 1978 Steinway B. While changing over to the Ronsen hammers, I also installed a set of WNG action parts. Other changes included bringing down the hammer weights as much as possible and removing nearly 5 lbs of lead out of the keysticks. The Renner hammers I took off had very little use.You can skip to 1:55 to hear the Ronsen hammers if you wish.
Regi Hedahl
Oct 9, 2015, 6:41:13 PM10/9/15
to pianotech
David,
Yes, I did play this piece while the piano was in my shop. I have made it a habit to take lots of pictures and recordings for my records.
Regi
Regi Hedahl
Oct 9, 2015, 6:42:12 PM10/9/15
to pianotech
Joe,
Correct, the results would have sounded different had I stuck the new Ronsen hammers on the wooden system. To be a fair comparison, I would have also had to keep the hammer weights the same. The Renners were much heavier. Had I had to do the job again, I probably would have installed Bacon felt. The piano has too much power for its intended purpose. It's one of the easiest piano to play pianissimo but the students seem to think that the louder they can play, the better the pianist they are. The faculty has since stuffed the piano with pillows and draped a heavy bedspread over the case to keep the noise down. Even then, it is still loud.
I didn't notice the touch as being brittle or tiring to play but I did reduce the inertia considerably on this action. What I do like about this action is the consistency of the action parts.
Regi
Joseph Garrett
Oct 9, 2015, 7:05:59 PM10/9/15
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Regi,
The consistency of parts is the big thing that all strive for. It does take a lot out of the job of getting a consistent touch. Pretty much puts the only variable down to the hammers themselves. If you have some of the hammers left from the new set and the old set of hammers, plus a few extra shanks and flanges you could do some more definitive comparisons now that the action is up and running.
It is sad that the piano is being flogged by ingrates and hacks.<G> It sounds like the piano is too big for the room it is in. If it's in a school situation, see if you can find a less powerful piano and swap them out.<G>
I had a similar situation in a college setting that has created a new set of problems....1. Everyone is fighting to get time on the newly rejuvenated piano and 2. the class room is now too small for the power achieved. Alas, it is a nice dilemma though.<G>
Best,
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl
Ron Nossaman
Oct 9, 2015, 7:39:56 PM10/9/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
On 10/9/2015 5:42 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
> Joe,
hurting anything.
> The piano has too much power for its intended
> purpose. It's one of the easiest piano to play pianissimo but the
> students seem to think that the louder they can play, the better the
> pianist they are.
A lot of them never outgrow that. Too many.
> The faculty has since stuffed the piano with pillows
> and draped a heavy bedspread over the case to keep the noise down. Even
> then, it is still loud.
Don't you just love a nice neat install? <G>
> What I do like about
> this action is the consistency of the action parts.
That's a real luxury after the days of having to rebuild new parts to
make them tolerable.
Ron N
> Joe,
>
> Had I had to do the job again, I probably would have
> installed Bacon felt.
Yes. Even so, there's room to voice down what you have some without
> Had I had to do the job again, I probably would have
> installed Bacon felt.
hurting anything.
> The piano has too much power for its intended
> purpose. It's one of the easiest piano to play pianissimo but the
> students seem to think that the louder they can play, the better the
> pianist they are.
> The faculty has since stuffed the piano with pillows
> and draped a heavy bedspread over the case to keep the noise down. Even
> then, it is still loud.
> What I do like about
> this action is the consistency of the action parts.
make them tolerable.
Ron N
Ed Foote
Oct 9, 2015, 9:54:34 PM10/9/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
Greetings,
The Renners certainly sound familiar. I had many sets like that in my rebuilds andI would be curious about how these were voiced. I used them for years with nowhere near enough needles in the shoulders, and finally, after reading the results of techs like Charles Ball, Jon Page, and Andre Oorbeck, plus Stanwood's take., I started to really loosen the Blues up. I found them to be easily voiced with needles at 11:00 and 11:30 if the "pad" and low shoulder were properly prepared. The last few sets were needled heavily on the bench before I even bored them, as they will sometimes "grow" a mm or so after the shoulders are softened.
The Ronsens I have have been using lately seem to start out a little below sparkling. I have a set of the Weikert Specials in a heavily used practice room and after two semesters is just beginning to have some edge at the lower volumes. For a serious student, or practice room, they will brighten up on their own in a year. For a teaching studio, the Ronsens have needed some thin hardener in most of the hammers, with some needling expected after a year or two.
In the given example of low volume playing, I don't think shank stiffness would not be much of a factor. The overall compliance of a WNG action is lower than the cloth bushed ones, but once again, that difference is more pronounced at higher forces. I like the parts, and can decide on how "soft"the action is with balance and front rail punchings. So far, the teachers have preferred the Crescendo front punchngs and the thinner balance rail punchings. Maybe professional fingers like the crispness that I feel in a WNG action, but I can see how some think of them as "brittle". I get comments on ease of control, so I am inclined to think the consistency is showing itself.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
The Renners certainly sound familiar. I had many sets like that in my rebuilds andI would be curious about how these were voiced. I used them for years with nowhere near enough needles in the shoulders, and finally, after reading the results of techs like Charles Ball, Jon Page, and Andre Oorbeck, plus Stanwood's take., I started to really loosen the Blues up. I found them to be easily voiced with needles at 11:00 and 11:30 if the "pad" and low shoulder were properly prepared. The last few sets were needled heavily on the bench before I even bored them, as they will sometimes "grow" a mm or so after the shoulders are softened.
The Ronsens I have have been using lately seem to start out a little below sparkling. I have a set of the Weikert Specials in a heavily used practice room and after two semesters is just beginning to have some edge at the lower volumes. For a serious student, or practice room, they will brighten up on their own in a year. For a teaching studio, the Ronsens have needed some thin hardener in most of the hammers, with some needling expected after a year or two.
In the given example of low volume playing, I don't think shank stiffness would not be much of a factor. The overall compliance of a WNG action is lower than the cloth bushed ones, but once again, that difference is more pronounced at higher forces. I like the parts, and can decide on how "soft"the action is with balance and front rail punchings. So far, the teachers have preferred the Crescendo front punchngs and the thinner balance rail punchings. Maybe professional fingers like the crispness that I feel in a WNG action, but I can see how some think of them as "brittle". I get comments on ease of control, so I am inclined to think the consistency is showing itself.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
Joseph Garrett
Oct 9, 2015, 11:11:22 PM10/9/15
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Ed
You have my deepest sympathy. <G> As I get older, and older, I choose not to do such mindless agony as poking bazillion holes in rock hard hammers that were made in a "modern" hammer press that spits them out like fleas off a dog! Of course you are probably dealing with an inventory of pianos that were originally made with compression crowned sound boards that have most likely lost the battle of having any semblance of latent energy in them. Consequently those pianos NEED to have a hard hammer to get any semblance of sound out of them.
And of course, you have to deal with the academic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would be allowed or used. Pity.
Again, condolences.
You have my deepest sympathy. <G> As I get older, and older, I choose not to do such mindless agony as poking bazillion holes in rock hard hammers that were made in a "modern" hammer press that spits them out like fleas off a dog! Of course you are probably dealing with an inventory of pianos that were originally made with compression crowned sound boards that have most likely lost the battle of having any semblance of latent energy in them. Consequently those pianos NEED to have a hard hammer to get any semblance of sound out of them.
And of course, you have to deal with the academic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would be allowed or used. Pity.
Again, condolences.
David Boyce
Oct 10, 2015, 2:52:21 AM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
On 10/10/2015 04:11, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> you have to deal with the academic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would be allowed or used. Pity.
near-demise of Bechstein and the rise of Steinway, here
http://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/berceuse-bechstein.php
Best regards,
David Boyce.
Ed Foote
Oct 10, 2015, 10:16:07 AM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
Greetings,
The Renner Blues are the most durable hammers I have used, so far. I have seen them in practice rooms for years. The pianos that are used in concert are the same pianos that are used all day, every day, for rehearsals, Suzuki accompaniment, warm-ups, and everything else that crosses the stage. Then wheeled out in front of an audience for performance. The Renners allowed me to get by with voicing right before the performance, but I had to do it each time. I think it would be a luxury to have a performance piano that was reserved for just that, but these are workhorses that have to masquerade as thoroughbreds on weekends. Trying to find a balance led me to the Blues, and it seemed to do it. I have a set in one of our D's and it is side by side with some 7 year old factory rocks in another. Half the users go for the more well-needled Renners, half for the sturm & drang of Steinway hardness. Factory hammers sound great,but I haven't' been able to keep them voiced after three or four years in the trenches.
Budget wants me to keep a set in for 6 years, so in the last year or so they start getting fast and light. When a hammer is nearing the end, it has to be brighter than I like, as I haven't found a way to keep the clang out of the sound at mf without killing the whole thing. Since it is a school piano, no one gets to really say, so I am left in the middle. Some faculty love the lightness and brilliance and tell me to keep it up, others begin asking when we can soften it. Most of us CAUT's know what it is like to be in the sling where those two curves cross. And THEN, when new hammer day arrives, and everybody has to adjust….
I am too old to ever be a great voicer, but it is always surprising to me what individuals hear. The latest artist here chose the brighter piano,( I found out that night why, a touch so sensitive that it made Bach's music sound like it was being played on an organ! ), and, out of all sorts of un-tended-to zingers, brassy spots, and stand-outs on the una corda, stuff I would normally deal with, she only asked that A4 not be quite as bright. A4 had neighbors that were worse, but that is what was bothering her in her program. Chopstick for 20 seconds and no more problems.
I am considering going with the Ronsen special felt for the next set on a D. The sets in the practice room look like they are holding up very well. It concerns me that they won't have the attack needed right out of the box, and someone will lean on me to dope them, which changes the whole long-term voicing picture. Ideally, we would have the piano played all summer, then see if it could hit the stage without the lacquer.
The Renner Blues are the most durable hammers I have used, so far. I have seen them in practice rooms for years. The pianos that are used in concert are the same pianos that are used all day, every day, for rehearsals, Suzuki accompaniment, warm-ups, and everything else that crosses the stage. Then wheeled out in front of an audience for performance. The Renners allowed me to get by with voicing right before the performance, but I had to do it each time. I think it would be a luxury to have a performance piano that was reserved for just that, but these are workhorses that have to masquerade as thoroughbreds on weekends. Trying to find a balance led me to the Blues, and it seemed to do it. I have a set in one of our D's and it is side by side with some 7 year old factory rocks in another. Half the users go for the more well-needled Renners, half for the sturm & drang of Steinway hardness. Factory hammers sound great,but I haven't' been able to keep them voiced after three or four years in the trenches.
Budget wants me to keep a set in for 6 years, so in the last year or so they start getting fast and light. When a hammer is nearing the end, it has to be brighter than I like, as I haven't found a way to keep the clang out of the sound at mf without killing the whole thing. Since it is a school piano, no one gets to really say, so I am left in the middle. Some faculty love the lightness and brilliance and tell me to keep it up, others begin asking when we can soften it. Most of us CAUT's know what it is like to be in the sling where those two curves cross. And THEN, when new hammer day arrives, and everybody has to adjust….
I am too old to ever be a great voicer, but it is always surprising to me what individuals hear. The latest artist here chose the brighter piano,( I found out that night why, a touch so sensitive that it made Bach's music sound like it was being played on an organ! ), and, out of all sorts of un-tended-to zingers, brassy spots, and stand-outs on the una corda, stuff I would normally deal with, she only asked that A4 not be quite as bright. A4 had neighbors that were worse, but that is what was bothering her in her program. Chopstick for 20 seconds and no more problems.
I am considering going with the Ronsen special felt for the next set on a D. The sets in the practice room look like they are holding up very well. It concerns me that they won't have the attack needed right out of the box, and someone will lean on me to dope them, which changes the whole long-term voicing picture. Ideally, we would have the piano played all summer, then see if it could hit the stage without the lacquer.
Ed Foote RPT
-----Original Message-----
From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2015 1:52 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
On 10/10/2015 04:11, Joseph Garrett wrote:> you have to deal with theacademic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would beallowed or used. Pity.Concert pianist Steven Houghhas a great essay on hisblog, about the near-demise of Bechstein and the rise of Steinway, herehttp://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/berceuse-bechstein.phpBestregards,David Boyce.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2015 1:52 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
David Kroenlein
Oct 10, 2015, 6:51:41 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
I remember reading that chickering used to be the "go to" piano before steinway came into prominence
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Joseph Garrett
Oct 10, 2015, 8:34:53 PM10/10/15
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Unhuh, and where did you read that? Sounds like a "marketing thang" to me. Although, I like Chickerings tone, their actions suck! And, they didn't get any better when Aeolian took them over. (naturally<G>) The Brown action was the biggest p.o.s. in existence as far as I'm concerned.
>From: David Kroenlein <kro...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 10, 2015 3:51 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>Sent: Oct 10, 2015 3:51 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
Joseph Garrett
Oct 10, 2015, 8:45:10 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
David,
A bunch of mis-information imo. Sigh!
btw, I am a fan of Bechstein pianos. Also, a fan of Grotrians, Schimmels, Pleyels, and Faziolis.
However, I think that THE instrument for large venues and large orchestras is the U.S. Steinway. It cuts through the crap.<G>
I much prefer the pre 1970's Steinways however. Mid 1970 is when they got "new" hammer presses and junked the old, proven method of making good hammers. Once they started down the road of Cement hard hammers w/o redesigning their scale to balance the sound, it is just more jangly, clangy crap imo.
Best,
Joe
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
>Sent: Oct 9, 2015 11:52 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>
>
A bunch of mis-information imo. Sigh!
btw, I am a fan of Bechstein pianos. Also, a fan of Grotrians, Schimmels, Pleyels, and Faziolis.
However, I think that THE instrument for large venues and large orchestras is the U.S. Steinway. It cuts through the crap.<G>
I much prefer the pre 1970's Steinways however. Mid 1970 is when they got "new" hammer presses and junked the old, proven method of making good hammers. Once they started down the road of Cement hard hammers w/o redesigning their scale to balance the sound, it is just more jangly, clangy crap imo.
Best,
Joe
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
>Sent: Oct 9, 2015 11:52 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>
>
Joseph Garrett
Oct 10, 2015, 8:56:12 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
Ed,
You do have to be on top of all of that. Makes me glad I went a different direction. Don't think I could deal with it. My hat's off to you though.<G>
I've found that the Ronsen's have very good longevity, especially if you avoid the temptation to lacquer early on. With just a bit of patience and good solid play in period, they develop great tone with good longevity imo.
Some of the problem with today's artists is that their ear has adjusted to listening to digital recordings that are overly edgy. And, there are a few that simply have lost a lot of their hearing at an early age because of the ear buds and overly loud, electronically enhanced sounds of extremely loud/large venues.
Darned shame imo.<G> They've got the chops, but lack the sensitivity that comes with good ears.
Best Regards,
>
You do have to be on top of all of that. Makes me glad I went a different direction. Don't think I could deal with it. My hat's off to you though.<G>
I've found that the Ronsen's have very good longevity, especially if you avoid the temptation to lacquer early on. With just a bit of patience and good solid play in period, they develop great tone with good longevity imo.
Some of the problem with today's artists is that their ear has adjusted to listening to digital recordings that are overly edgy. And, there are a few that simply have lost a lot of their hearing at an early age because of the ear buds and overly loud, electronically enhanced sounds of extremely loud/large venues.
Darned shame imo.<G> They've got the chops, but lack the sensitivity that comes with good ears.
Best Regards,
>From: 'Ed Foote' via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Sent: Oct 10, 2015 7:16 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>Greetings,
> The Renner Blues are the most durable hammers I have used, so far. I have seen them in practice rooms for years. The pianos that are used in concert are the same pianos that are used all day, every day, for rehearsals, Suzuki accompaniment, warm-ups, and everything else that crosses the stage. Then wheeled out in front of an audience for performance. The Renners allowed me to get by with voicing right before the performance, but I had to do it each time. I think it would be a luxury to have a performance piano that was reserved for just that, but these are workhorses that have to masquerade as thoroughbreds on weekends. Trying to find a balance led me to the Blues, and it seemed to do it. I have a set in one of our D's and it is side by side with some 7 year old factory rocks in another. Half the users go for the more well-needled Renners, half for the sturm & drang of Steinway hardness. Factory hammers sound great,but I haven't' been able to keep them voiced after three or four years in the trenches.
> Budget wants me to keep a set in for 6 years, so in the last year or so they start getting fast and light. When a hammer is nearing the end, it has to be brighter than I like, as I haven't found a way to keep the clang out of the sound at mf without killing the whole thing. Since it is a school piano, no one gets to really say, so I am left in the middle. Some faculty love the lightness and brilliance and tell me to keep it up, others begin asking when we can soften it. Most of us CAUT's know what it is like to be in the sling where those two curves cross. And THEN, when new hammer day arrives, and everybody has to adjust….
>
> I am too old to ever be a great voicer, but it is always surprising to me what individuals hear. The latest artist here chose the brighter piano,( I found out that night why, a touch so sensitive that it made Bach's music sound like it was being played on an organ! ), and, out of all sorts of un-tended-to zingers, brassy spots, and stand-outs on the una corda, stuff I would normally deal with, she only asked that A4 not be quite as bright. A4 had neighbors that were worse, but that is what was bothering her in her program. Chopstick for 20 seconds and no more problems.
>
> I am considering going with the Ronsen special felt for the next set on a D. The sets in the practice room look like they are holding up very well. It concerns me that they won't have the attack needed right out of the box, and someone will lean on me to dope them, which changes the whole long-term voicing picture. Ideally, we would have the piano played all summer, then see if it could hit the stage without the lacquer.
>Ed Foote RPT
>
> The Renner Blues are the most durable hammers I have used, so far. I have seen them in practice rooms for years. The pianos that are used in concert are the same pianos that are used all day, every day, for rehearsals, Suzuki accompaniment, warm-ups, and everything else that crosses the stage. Then wheeled out in front of an audience for performance. The Renners allowed me to get by with voicing right before the performance, but I had to do it each time. I think it would be a luxury to have a performance piano that was reserved for just that, but these are workhorses that have to masquerade as thoroughbreds on weekends. Trying to find a balance led me to the Blues, and it seemed to do it. I have a set in one of our D's and it is side by side with some 7 year old factory rocks in another. Half the users go for the more well-needled Renners, half for the sturm & drang of Steinway hardness. Factory hammers sound great,but I haven't' been able to keep them voiced after three or four years in the trenches.
> Budget wants me to keep a set in for 6 years, so in the last year or so they start getting fast and light. When a hammer is nearing the end, it has to be brighter than I like, as I haven't found a way to keep the clang out of the sound at mf without killing the whole thing. Since it is a school piano, no one gets to really say, so I am left in the middle. Some faculty love the lightness and brilliance and tell me to keep it up, others begin asking when we can soften it. Most of us CAUT's know what it is like to be in the sling where those two curves cross. And THEN, when new hammer day arrives, and everybody has to adjust….
>
> I am too old to ever be a great voicer, but it is always surprising to me what individuals hear. The latest artist here chose the brighter piano,( I found out that night why, a touch so sensitive that it made Bach's music sound like it was being played on an organ! ), and, out of all sorts of un-tended-to zingers, brassy spots, and stand-outs on the una corda, stuff I would normally deal with, she only asked that A4 not be quite as bright. A4 had neighbors that were worse, but that is what was bothering her in her program. Chopstick for 20 seconds and no more problems.
>
> I am considering going with the Ronsen special felt for the next set on a D. The sets in the practice room look like they are holding up very well. It concerns me that they won't have the attack needed right out of the box, and someone will lean on me to dope them, which changes the whole long-term voicing picture. Ideally, we would have the piano played all summer, then see if it could hit the stage without the lacquer.
>Ed Foote RPT
>
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
>
>
>On 10/10/2015 04:11, Joseph Garrett wrote:> you have to deal with theacademic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would beallowed or used. Pity.Concert pianist Steven Houghhas a great essay on hisblog, about the near-demise of Bechstein and the rise of Steinway, herehttp://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/berceuse-bechstein.phpBestregards,David Boyce.
>
>
>
David Kroenlein
Oct 10, 2015, 9:05:38 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
LONG time ago!
Joseph Garrett
Oct 10, 2015, 9:48:13 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
David,
No where in that blurb, was Chickering considered the "go to" piano. The whole thing was the excess of Marketing B.S. That has prevailed within our industry for oh so long.<G>
The action of the Chickering was not given any merit, but was, actually, lamented as being substandard. (If I read it right.<G>)
One of my best remanufactured instruments is an 1867 Chickering 8', flat strung. The Brown action was the main issue and went immediately into the garbage can. With a modern, rib crowned soundboard, a modified Renner action w/appropriate Ronsen hammers and a highly modified Clemson, (Pratt-Read), back action, it is a great instrument.
BUT, it isn't a Chickering anymore! Thank god!<G>
How Chickering snookered anyone into awarding them a Gold Medal for that year of instrument is beyond me. (I suspect overly zealous marketing and perhaps some well place Francs did the trick.<G>)
There were other manufacturers through the years that went head to head with S&S. Most were good pianos, but lacked the marketing skills of the Steinways, so wound up second or ??? Weber and M & H come to mind.
Best,
Joe
David Kroenlein
Oct 10, 2015, 9:56:45 PM10/10/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
I would have liked to have heard that piano!
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
David Love
Oct 11, 2015, 11:36:44 AM10/11/15
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Try using a set of Ronsen Wurzen with my profile (low profile) on the next D (or B for that matter). The Wurzen felt has a bit more power than the Weickert. I have found them to be very stable and close to ready out of the box. On occasion I have had to slightly harden the top end but most of the time not. If so use the Pianotek lacquer, 20-30% solution. One application only. It remains relatively flexible but will stiffen the felt some.
The most stable hammer will be the one that has the most resilience that is achieved with the least amount of manipulation--i.e. is most springlike. In a D (especially a heavy use D) you will need both resilience and some stiffness to produce adequate power. The Wurzen felt in this profile (and with the Ronsen process) will provide both resilience necesssary for stability and longevity and power. Less manipulation (lacquer or needles) preserves the internal tension of the hammer and maintains a higher coefficient of restitution (the hammer returns to its original shape after compression). Heavy needling and lacquer reduce the restorative capacity of the hammer. Needling becomes more and more a matter of just altering the hammer density so that after a few blows it simply packs back down--the hammer loses all capacity to return to its original form after compression. Lacquer reduces the springlike quality of the felt and you are ultimately left with a hammer that you can only voice by density manipulation as well. Over time the integrity of the felt is compromised by excessive needing and the hammer has less and less stability. Voicing should ideally be a matter of manipulating spring stiffness, not felt density, but sometimes it can't be avoided due to the character of the hammer. One of the interesting benefits of very resilient hammers (with properly proportioned stiffness and weight) is that you can achieve brightness without harshness--a rare thing these days. A more resilient hammer will give you a broader spectrum that expands through the dynamic range--more color.
Joseph Garrett
Oct 11, 2015, 12:15:41 PM10/11/15
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David,
Very eloquent! I would totally agree with that! It has been my experience as well.
Best Regards,
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: David Love
Sent: Oct 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
Try using a set of Ronsen Wurzen with my profile (low profile) on the next D (or B for that matter). The Wurzen felt has a bit more power than the Weickert. I have found them to be very stable and close to ready out of the box. On occasion I have had to slightly harden the top end but most of the time not. If so use the Pianotek lacquer, 20-30% solution. One application only. It remains relatively flexible but will stiffen the felt some.The most stable hammer will be the one that has the most resilience that is achieved with the least amount of manipulation--i.e. is most springlike. In a D (especially a heavy use D) you will need both resilience and some stiffness to produce adequate power. The Wurzen felt in this profile (and with the Ronsen process) will provide both resilience necesssary for stability and longevity and power. Less manipulation (lacquer or needles) preserves the internal tension of the hammer and maintains a higher coefficient of restitution (the hammer returns to its original shape after compression). Heavy needling and lacquer reduce the restorative capacity of the hammer. Needling becomes more and more a matter of just altering the hammer density so that after a few blows it simply packs back down--the hammer loses all capacity to return to its original form after compression. Lacquer reduces the springlike quality of the felt and you are ultimately left with a hammer that you can only voice by density manipulation as well. Over time the integrity of the felt is compromised by excessive needing and the hammer has less and less stability. Voicing should ideally be a matter of manipulating spring stiffness, not felt density, but sometimes it can't be avoided due to the character of the hammer. One of the interesting benefits of very resilient hammers (with properly proportioned stiffness and weight) is that you can achieve brightness without harshness--a rare thing these days. A more resilient hammer will give you a broader spectrum that expands through the dynamic range--more color.
On Saturday, October 10, 2015 at 7:16:07 AM UTC-7, ed foote wrote:Greetings,
The Renner Blues are the most durable hammers I have used, so far. I have seen them in practice rooms for years. The pianos that are used in concert are the same pianos that are used all day, every day, for rehearsals, Suzuki accompaniment, warm-ups, and everything else that crosses the stage. Then wheeled out in front of an audience for performance. The Renners allowed me to get by with voicing right before the performance, but I had to do it each time. I think it would be a luxury to have a performance piano that was reserved for just that, but these are workhorses that have to masquerade as thoroughbreds on weekends. Trying to find a balance led me to the Blues, and it seemed to do it. I have a set in one of our D's and it is side by side with some 7 year old factory rocks in another. Half the users go for the more well-needled Renners, half for the sturm & drang of Steinway hardness. Factory hammers sound great,but I haven't' been able to keep them voiced after three or four years in the trenches.
Budget wants me to keep a set in for 6 years, so in the last year or so they start getting fast and light. When a hammer is nearing the end, it has to be brighter than I like, as I haven't found a way to keep the clang out of the sound at mf without killing the whole thing. Since it is a school piano, no one gets to really say, so I am left in the middle. Some faculty love the lightness and brilliance and tell me to keep it up, others begin asking when we can soften it. Most of us CAUT's know what it is like to be in the sling where those two curves cross. And THEN, when new hammer day arrives, and everybody has to adjust….
I am too old to ever be a great voicer, but it is always surprising to me what individuals hear. The latest artist here chose the brighter piano,( I found out that night why, a touch so sensitive that it made Bach's music sound like it was being played on an organ! ), and, out of all sorts of un-tended-to zingers, brassy spots, and stand-outs on the una corda, stuff I would normally deal with, she only asked that A4 not be quite as bright. A4 had neighbors that were worse, but that is what was bothering her in her program. Chopstick for 20 seconds and no more problems.
I am considering going with the Ronsen special felt for the next set on a D. The sets in the practice room look like they are holding up very well. It concerns me that they won't have the attack needed right out of the box, and someone will lean on me to dope them, which changes the whole long-term voicing picture. Ideally, we would have the piano played all summer, then see if it could hit the stage without the lacquer.
Ed Foote RPT
-----Original Message-----
From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2015 1:52 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Renner vs. Ronsen hammer comparison
On 10/10/2015 04:11, Joseph Garrett wrote:> you have to deal with theacademic mindset otherwise known as Steinwayitis where nothing "less" would beallowed or used. Pity.Concert pianist Steven Houghhas a great essay on hisblog, about the near-demise of Bechstein and the rise of Steinway, herehttp://www.stephenhough.com/writings/selective/berceuse-bechstein.phpBestregards,David Boyce.
William Monroe
Oct 11, 2015, 2:27:34 PM10/11/15
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David L,
You wrote, "my profile."
What exactly is that? A particular shape profile, a particular pressing of felt? Would you elaborate?
Thanks
William R. Monroe
David Love
Oct 11, 2015, 10:58:46 PM10/11/15
to pianotech
The "low profile" hammer targets specific dimensions and a specific way of getting there that I developed with Ray's help. If you ask for low profile or my dimensions you'll get something a little different than what had been the 14lb standard. It's a bit thinner over the molding especially in the treble section.
David Love
Oct 11, 2015, 11:00:16 PM10/11/15
to pianotech
I can elaborate more on the idea of you want.
Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft
Oct 12, 2015, 7:53:43 AM10/12/15
to Pianotech Google
Davis, would you say the Wurtzen is firmer than the Weickert hammers?
Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft
David Love
Oct 12, 2015, 10:54:16 AM10/12/15
to pianotech
Davis is out on the golf course but let me see if I can answer for him.
The idea of the Low Profile hammer was to use the shaping of the felt (thickness) to help get a targeted response out of each section. In particular, a reduction in the felt thickness and along with it the mass in the hammer in the upper end provided more out of the box power and lower string contact time which filtered less string energy and created a brighter sound but without being harsh or too percussive. Obviously some percussive power is desirable in the upper end of the piano but you don't want too harsh a "knock",.
The profile refers to the thickness of the felt over the molding. But more than that the idea was to try and create and preserve as much tension in the felt as possible. In order to help with that the felt sheets are skived to their proper thickness *before* the pressing rather than filed to the proper thickness after. There is a slight difference when done this way. It may be because the outer layers of the hammer are the most tensioned having been stretched the most. So filing away the outer layers only reduces the amount of tension stored in the hammer. Thinner felt can also be stretched more and that stretching contributes to not only increased density but more tension. Higher tension gives more resilience, the hammer rebounds off the string faster, less damping. It's also important that the shape of the hammer as it comes out of the press is maintained. You don't want to be filing through layers of felt and reducing the overall tension in the hammer. The dimensions we are using are as follows:
#1 11-12 mm
#26/27 9-10 mm
#40 7-8 mm
#55 5-6 mm
#70 4-5 mm
#88 3-4 mm
Generally my target has been the smaller number. If the sheet is particularly dense then a slightly higher number can be targeted. There is no underfelt after about note C64.
Generally I've found the Wurzen felt a bit firmer providing a bit more power. I use light maple molding on the hammers which allows one to achieve a fairly low strike weight if that's your target. If you want a higher strike weight then less tapering and adding weight with lead solder as usual. The D generally wants a bit higher SW but not necessarily in the high treble. My strike weight curve for most Steinways runs from about 11 grams to about 5.5 grams, depending on the action ratio, of course. The D hammer should be a bit heavier, maybe 12.5 grams to about 6 grams, again action ratio dictates what you can actually use.. You can see I'm not adding that much more in the treble and more importantly not through having more felt.
This highly resilient felt made this way will require no lacquer, or very little and only in the upper end. That adds to longevity. They will develop some, as all hammers do, but need little needling, except at the surface, which only adds to their longevity and stability.
David Love
William Monroe
Oct 12, 2015, 10:20:53 PM10/12/15
to pian...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for sharing, David.
William R. Monroe
Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft
Oct 13, 2015, 7:30:58 AM10/13/15
to Pianotech Google
Slip of the finger, not the mind……Thanks for the info, very useful and informative.
Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft
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