[Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Vincent de Lau]

Hi all,

As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring this application and am introducing Rodolfo Berrios [3] as the proposed Project Representative.

Chevereto is a "self-hosted image sharing platform". Although exact user numbers are hard to find, there is a significant amount of downloads for container images for Chevereto [4]. There is also a community forum with over 20000 members [5]. I believe in this time of enshitification [6][7][8] and the resulting rise of the Fediverse, this project is very relevant.

In addition to the Chevereto application, there is also a collection of libraries or components that Rodolfo is working on, under the name Chevere [9][10].

I'd like to invite Rodolfo to introduce himself to the list and formally start the discussion period which lasts at least 14 days.

Kind regards,
Vincent de Lau
PHP-FIG Core Committee member


[1]: https://chevereto.com/
[2]: https://github.com/chevereto/chevereto
[3]: https://github.com/rodber
[4]: https://hub.docker.com/search?q=chevereto
[5]: https://chevereto.com/community/
[6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
[7]: https://chevereto.com/why
[8]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/the-big-alternatives-to-google-photos-showdown/
[9]: https://chevere.org/
[10]: https://github.com/chevere

[Rodolfo Berríos]

Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.

My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get more involved with the community around the language and its user standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of you.

I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I got more interested in interoperability.

I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP and I want to be part of this group.

Cheers,
Rodolfo.

[Larry Garfield]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
> Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
>
> My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've
> been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you
> may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get
> more involved with the community around the language and its user
> standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of
> you.
>
> I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it
> all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur
> replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low
> level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I
> got more interested in interoperability.
>
> I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP
> and I want to be part of this group.
>
> Cheers,
> Rodolfo.

Hi Rodolfo. It looks like an interesting and successful project. I do have one question. The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3. The pricing page talks about needing license keys. How exactly does that work? I do not understand this model.

--Larry Garfield

[Korvin Szanto]

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Welcome Rodolfo!

I see Chevereto has a paid closed source version and a free open source version that has some features removed[1], is that correct? If so does the paid version have a specific name that might help someone distinguish the open source project that has FIG membership from the paid project that potentially doesn't?

Thanks for your interest, Chevere and Chevereto look like good additions to the group.

Best,

Korvin

1. https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#%F0%9F%98%98-made-for-personal-usage

[Rodolfo Berríos]

(replying this again but this time with "reply all" I'm still getting used)

Hi Larry, sure. This should cover most of your concerns: https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/

To summarize Chevereto has editions. There's a main edition (proprietary) and an Open Source edition under AGPLv3. Previously I had another project called "Chevereto-Free" here: https://github.com/rodber/chevereto-free

Chevereto has been free/paid/etc so many times that I understand the confusion. My goal has been always Open Source but it didn't pay neither I got contribution. I'm still finding ways to make it more universal, quite challenging the last few years.

[Rodolfo Berríos]

Hi Kevin, yes Chevereto has two editions.

The mainline project is "Chevereto", the free edition is auto sourced from the paid build as the upstream is proprietary. I understand that member projects must be "<...> publicly available PHP projects" and in this case we have a project with both public and private parts as it ships in two editions. In the same post you mentioned I have an explanation on why I used the same name for both editions: https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#😵%E2%80%8D💫-bad-naming

Cheers,

Rodolfo.

[Leo Cavalcante]

Welcome, Rodolfo!
Really interesting project 👏
Best,
Leo

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[Alessandro Lai]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say, questionable endeavors.

First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/

Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which has a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one: https://xrdebug.com/

With this message, I ask Rodolfo to explain is behavior, so that we can consider it before starting the vote on his membership.

[Rodolfo Berríos]

I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:

1. The logos I use is part of an artistic movement, is not for copyright infringement nor defamation intended. I created the Chevere organization in 2018 and I have zero issues to takedown the logos if these bother the concerning parties (I have never being bothered by anyone). I took many famous logos because I liked them, and many of these are not the current logo of these companies but I honor them on my way with a second life. For example, this one: https://chevere.org/packages/throwable-handler is from a Chilean cement company. You can read a very interesting background here: https://www.rchav.cl/2015_26_art05_baranlloni.html#p2

If helps, I'm up to write a section on chevere.org explaining why I got inspired by these logos and what can the affected parties (if any) do to get me stop using these. These aren't commercial projects anyway. But quick question: Why logos for Chevere.org (which is not the project being summited here) affects this anyway?

2. Regarding the Xdebug and xrDebug "naming collision". I'm sorry but I think that this is very odd to even mention, a no issue. There's vi and vim, there's Java and JavaScript (and so on) but I can't have xrDebug because which exact reason? PHP users won't ever stop using Xdebug for PHP and my objective is not to get people stop using that software, I just offer a simpler solution for very specific cases. Also, my debugger suits a completely different purpose and I've public addressed that on MergePHP last meetup. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoCbXVMltE&t=795s Xdebug is a full featured PHP debugger while xrDebug is a lightweight debug tool for PHP (and more) is just that I don't have all the client libraries yet. If I ever get xrDebug to become more popular, it will surely transcend PHP and it has the potential to be more popular than Xdebug. Is that the real matter here?

To clarify, it is not an option to rename xrDebug to get me to be part of PHP-FIG.

I wonder why you didn't ask anything about Chevereto, which is the project that I'm proposing here anyway.

Thanks for sharing your concerns.

[Alessandro Lai]

Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer.

I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to join the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only the project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't even have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to weight those on your membership request.

Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't in any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.

You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source, the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm worried of your low consideration on this topic.

I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit that you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a full fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a name.

[Rodolfo Berrios]

On the debugger name controversy this is ridiculous. Simple as that, I don't wan to be part of this group if that's how you embrace diversity.

Very disappointed that nobody is saying anything on how these guys are bullying my pet project.

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[Vincent de Lau]

Hi Rodolfo,

Since you blocked me on Discord, I have to take this public route to continue this discussion.

You have stated that you feel bullied and excluded and I'm sorry you feel that way. However, after reading the discussions here, on Mastodon and Discord, I don't see any behavior that would typically be labeled unacceptable. The concerns raised about potential trademark and copyright infringement are valid in my opinion. In the case of xrDebug, while it technically might not be illegal, I perfectly understand Derick's frustration and the confusion it might cause within the PHP community at large.

In my view multiple people were engaging with you to get their questions answered and find solutions for the aspects that could be problematic. Nobody in the FIG outright attacked you, shunned you or tried to exclude you. Maybe there are some cultural or language barriers in the way, although I am thinking this is more a personality issue.

You have indicated that you don't want to be part of this group anymore, although you didn't specifically ask me to cancel the application, nor did you do so yourself. Since you have blocked conversation with me as the Sponsor, I can no longer be the Sponsor of this application, and thus I will cancel it.

Having said all this, feel free to contact me again is you want to reflect on what transpired over the last 24 hours. I wish you and your projects all the best and still hope to see you around in the PHP community.

Kind regards,

Vincent de Lau

PHP-FIG Core Committee member

[Rodolfo Berrios]

I didn't block you, we don't share any servers. I left the PHP-FIG Discord and in all honesty, I don't feel welcomed here except by two people. It seems that FIG doesn't need my help so why bother.

The level of hostility and regression that I read at phpc.social is just not what I'm looking for in my life, in all these years working in systems (since 2007) I never felt the urge of being part of the PHP community but when I reached certain age I wanted to be more active and perhaps bring something else to the table.

It is sad to see how caustic people can get just because they don't want you in. Seeking excuses to start copyright infringement, calling morally questionable for picking certain names. I even saw people mentioning "it's for artisans!" as mocking Laravel users.

You as a community have a serious problem when you enable this witch hunt.

I don't want to be part of this.
Sorry.

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--

Rodolfo Berrios
rodolfoberrios.com

[Korvin Szanto]

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I don't think this needs more discussion but I just want to offer as someone who was defending your use of the logos and name that the opportunity you were given to explain yourself was wasted on being defensive and abusive, going so far as calling it a "witch hunt". You submitted yourself for scrutiny and then exploded at the very initial dialog saying it's some sort of persecution.

In my opinion you started strong with your reasons for using logos, but then outright refused to answer about the naming collision before giving up completely, all within a single night. A better approach would've been to answer honestly and let discussion play out where I'm sure differing opinions would emerge.

Since you didn't answer the second question I'm left thinking the name collision was entirely intentional.  That along with your responses to initial questions leads me to fully support your withdrawal. 

[Vincent de Lau]

On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 2:01:33 PM UTC+1 Rodolfo Berrios wrote:

I didn't block you, we don't share any servers. I left the PHP-FIG Discord and in all honesty, I don't feel welcomed here except by two people. It seems that FIG doesn't need my help so why bother.

That seems indeed to be the case, I was not aware of this aspect of Discord as I never encountered it before.

 

The level of hostility and regression that I read at phpc.social is just not what I'm looking for in my life, in all these years working in systems (since 2007) I never felt the urge of being part of the PHP community but when I reached certain age I wanted to be more active and perhaps bring something else to the table.

I think it is important to say that 'PHP' (aka internals), the PHP Foundation, the PHP-FIG and the PHP 'community' are all different groups, with different levels of formality and little to no connection between them except the people that form these groups. The PHP-FIG has a very narrow albeit ambitious mission, but by no means claims to represent the community at large. We do however listen to feedback and concerns from members of the wider community, which is why you got some difficult questions. In the things I read, I have seen no PHP-FIG representative making concluding statements about you or your work.

 

It is sad to see how caustic people can get just because they don't want you in. Seeking excuses to start copyright infringement, calling morally questionable for picking certain names. I even saw people mentioning "it's for artisans!" as mocking Laravel users.

(I am not a lawyer...) In most parts of the world, 'trademark' an 'copyright' are well established concepts. Local laws vary widely and sometimes requires (expensive) registration to be enforceable. There is however a 'letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law'. According to the letter of the laws applicable to you, you might be in the clear. I would however not be surprised if at some point you will receive a cease-and-desist letter from one of the companies who's logos you got inspired by.

As for the spirit of the law, trademark and copyright exist because we believe that people who invested in building a brand or a creating a copyrightable work should be allowed to profit from their investment and prevent other from profiting unfairly. For trademark, there is also the matter of avoiding confusion in the relevant market.

So, while xdebug might not be an enforcable trademark, the use of 'xrdebug' does seem to generate confusion in the relevant market (PHP users). The fact that a project is not-for-profit or personal project is not relevant. The similar name might be completely coincidental, but given that xdebug is aproject with a strong and long track record, this confusion could have been anticipated and prevented. That is what I meant with 'morally questionable', which might sound harsher that intended trough two language barriers (English is not my native language either). What I meant is that choosing such a name goes against the norms and social standards that exist in the community. Because the similarity is with a high-profile project, ran by a well respected member of the PHP community, it is logical that some people have a strong reaction on the matter.

You as a community have a serious problem when you enable this witch hunt.

I really don't understand how you come to see this as a witch hunt. I see someone mentioning they found out that XrDebug exists and that it is not related to XDebug. Derick gets notified and contacts you. People start looking into your projects and see logos that are 'heavily inspired' on existing trademarks. Someone else makes the link between you and your projects application to become a PHP-FIG member. At that point, people obviously have questions. That is not a witch hunt, that is people noticing your work and reacting to it. If those reactions are indeed abusive otherwise personal attacks, I'm the first to denounce them. I personally did not observe any of this, but if you have received those, feel free to contact me or a moderator to address those.

I don't want to be part of this.
Sorry.

Noted, and also sorry it had to go this way. 

[Rasmus Schultz]

I don't see anything questionable here.

xrDebug branding is clearly different from XDebug - it's capitalized differently, the logo doesn't remotely resemble XDebug branding, it doesn't even have the word "debug" in it. I don't see how this could possibly be a problem.

As for the logos, I see no indications of any sort of attempt to appropriate or misrepresent any brands - this is clearly just humor and a creative (in fact, warming) celebration of some older brands.

He explained himself in his first reply. I don't know why it was necessary to carry on it's no real wonder the man feels a little unwelcome.

Just my two cents, but I think everyone should chill, and welcome what appears to be a popular PHP project with a good following. Can y'all hug and move on please? 🤗