On The Behavior Of Secretaries

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Paul Jones

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May 26, 2016, 4:12:48 PM5/26/16
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All,

It was revealed in another thread (linked below) that the secretaries arbitrarily, and without consulting the group, decided not to count the vote of a voting member.

<https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!msg/php-fig/TDX--AVR45c/eWMBDUr0DAAJ>

Who among the voting members believes this was appropriate behavior?

Further, I ask Michael Cullum in particular what makes him think he can engage in this kind of arbitrary decision-making without consulting the group?



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Jordi Boggiano

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May 26, 2016, 4:17:43 PM5/26/16
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On 26/05/2016 21:12, Paul Jones wrote:
> It was revealed in another thread (linked below) that the secretaries arbitrarily, and without consulting the group, decided not to count the vote of a voting member.
>
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!msg/php-fig/TDX--AVR45c/eWMBDUr0DAAJ>
>
> Who among the voting members believes this was appropriate behavior?

He clearly said it was decided not to count it as it had no impact,
while they would have brought it up to the list if it had an impact.
Which means they took a non-decision, and their only mistake was to
mention it instead of just not mentioning it, as the only impact was
that of "corrupting" the Annals of the FIG.

I for one think this thread is a waste of our time.

Cheers

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Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek - http://seld.be

Paul Jones

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May 26, 2016, 4:20:37 PM5/26/16
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> On May 26, 2016, at 15:17, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>
> On 26/05/2016 21:12, Paul Jones wrote:
>> It was revealed in another thread (linked below) that the secretaries arbitrarily, and without consulting the group, decided not to count the vote of a voting member.
>>
>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!msg/php-fig/TDX--AVR45c/eWMBDUr0DAAJ>
>>
>> Who among the voting members believes this was appropriate behavior?
>
> He clearly said it was decided not to count it as it had no impact,

So "votes that have no impact" are not to be counted? That strikes me as ... imprudent.


> their only mistake was to mention it instead of just not mentioning it, as the only impact was that of "corrupting" the Annals of the FIG.

It is indicative of their thought process, which clearly needs correcting.


> I for one think this thread is a waste of our time.

Sure; you'll probably want to mute or block it. Others may wish to do so as well.

For those of concerned about these matters, though, it may be worth watching.
Message has been deleted

Jordi Boggiano

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May 26, 2016, 4:25:02 PM5/26/16
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On 26/05/2016 21:20, Paul Jones wrote:
>> their only mistake was to mention it instead of just not mentioning it, as the only impact was that of "corrupting" the Annals of the FIG.
>
> It is indicative of their thought process, which clearly needs correcting.

I find that your lack of concern for the hundreds of ML member's time
needs correcting.

Kayla Daniels

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May 26, 2016, 4:29:06 PM5/26/16
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A few things: 

1. It made no difference to the vote at all. The decision to include/exclude it didn't warrant wasting the time and effort of voting members, or starting another thread or waiting another two weeks to discuss whether or not a vote that makes literally no difference should or should not being counted. 
2. He said it would have been discussed, had it made an impact. 
3. HAD it made an impact and had another thread been started to determine whether or not his vote should have counted, I for one would have agreed with the decision to ignore that vote. As I alluded to elsewhere, that vote was an obvious and blatant conflict of interest and, in my opinion, shouldn't have been counted. 

Also, agree with Jordi that this is a waste of time and with Chris that your tone and framing here are both unnecessarily aggressive. 

Kayla

Paul Jones

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May 26, 2016, 4:34:54 PM5/26/16
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> On May 26, 2016, at 15:29, Kayla Daniels <kayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A few things:
>
> 1. It made no difference to the vote at all.

Doesn't matter. All votes of all voting members should be included. Is that somehow a disagreeable position?


> 2. He said it would have been discussed, had it made an impact.

That's not up to a secretary to decide; it's up to the voting members, whom the secretaries serve, to decide.


> 3. HAD it made an impact and had another thread been started to determine whether or not his vote should have counted, I for one would have agreed with the decision to ignore that vote. As I alluded to elsewhere, that vote was an obvious and blatant conflict of interest and, in my opinion, shouldn't have been counted.

Should members be allowed to vote on their own PSR proposals? That's a conflict of interest, too, and yet we do (and should).


> Also, agree with Jordi that this is a waste of time and with Chris that your tone and framing here are both unnecessarily aggressive.

Direct, yes; blunt, yes; aggressive, no.

Kayla Daniels

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May 26, 2016, 4:42:57 PM5/26/16
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Voting on your own PSR is much different than voting on whether or not your project should remain or be removed from this organization. Voting on your own PSRs is not a conflict of interests. Voting to not have yourself removed clearly is. So yeah, I find the position disagreeable. 


Kayla

Michael Cullum

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May 26, 2016, 4:43:58 PM5/26/16
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Hi Paul,

As I explained in the previous topic, we did not consult the entire FIG membership for a debate as to whether or not Dracony's vote should be counted because the only impact of including, or excluding, Dracony's vote was in terms of the count on the spreadsheet which we secretaries use to tally and record votes. The final vote outcome (pass or fail) remained unchanged whether he voted +1,-1, abstained or did not vote. It was not so much a conscious decision to exclude his vote, but to avoid making a decision without a full debate so it was never put on the sheet.

In the interest of being transparent and making it clear it was not an accidental omission I clarified this when I posted the overall result of the vote because as secretaries we are held accountable to the membership and transparency is core to this. This was not a covert decision, but simply an explanation of why I had recorded it on our records as I had. A few people had asked as to the legality of his vote, and ultimately the truth is we never needed to make a decision on whether it was, but I had to put something on our records.

Had whether or not Dracony's vote affected the outcome, after the vote had closed, I would have brought up the topic for debate and then potentially a vote if required, but as the value of his vote, or whether he voted or not, didn't affect any portion of the vote's final outcome, I didn't see the need for another discussion of bureaucracy which would have potentially taken 4 weeks. I believed it was in the interest of the FIG to move on, not make a decision either way, and focus on the current PSRs (Particularly PSR-15 coming in, PSR-14 forming a working group, PSR-13 nearing review and PSR-12 which Korvin and I are working on the survey for), potential future PSRs (Async) and future potential structural changes however I did note we should change the bylaw to clarify its position for future.

I will respond briefly to the point made in the previous topic "Yes, I confess to thinking the same thing shortly after the role was voted into existence.  Perhaps the role description needs to be re-written, by someone who is not going to *hold* that role."

The role was initially conceived at ZendCon, when I was not present (I therefore neither suggested the role, nor formed the initial roles and responsibilities) although Joe Ferguson was present (who then advised on the final production of the text in addition to a number of other people present). All I then did is take the notes of that meeting and reword it up into a bylaw, and I then made changes as requested by the membership of the FIG  and I don't recall rejecting any changes. The bylaw then was voted on and was one of the most unanimous votes in the past year or so. Myself, Joe and Samantha were then nominated and voted upon, to which the votes were then added up and verified by a number of FIG members. In FIG 3.0 I believe there are a few wording adjustments Larry made that were picked up on after it was voted in but primarily there are no real changes to the role. If there are parts of the role you believe should change, then lets discuss them, but they were not raised previously so could not have been addressed.

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Paul Jones

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May 26, 2016, 4:47:04 PM5/26/16
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> On May 26, 2016, at 15:43, Michael Cullum <m...@michaelcullum.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> As I explained in the previous topic, we did not consult the entire FIG membership for a debate as to whether or not Dracony's vote should be counted because the only impact of including, or excluding, Dracony's vote was in terms of the count on the spreadsheet which we secretaries use to tally and record votes.

Yes, I recall you saying that. My question to you is, where do the secretaries get the power to choose to include or exclude votes, on *any* basis?

> I will respond briefly to the point made in the previous topic "Yes, I confess to thinking the same thing shortly after the role was voted into existence. Perhaps the role description needs to be re-written, by someone who is not going to *hold* that role."
>
> The role was initially conceived at ZendCon, when I was not present

I was present. Among other things, "given charge of choosing which votes to include or exclude" was not one of the duties discussed.


> If there are parts of the role you believe should change, then lets discuss them, but they were not raised previously so could not have been addressed.

I have brought them up in a separate thread.

Robert Hafner

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May 26, 2016, 5:00:42 PM5/26/16
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I think that the secretaries making this decision was a mistake. 

Not counting a vote is a huge deal. What's the point of having votes if they can be arbitrary discounted by the Secretaries? Lets make sure we're clear about this- whether it matters or not towards the final outcome, they did remove a vote.

In my opinion the secretaries should stick with the status quo, or bring it up to the list. In this case we've never refused to let a member vote before, so by doing so now they have unilaterally changed how this organization is run.

This was inappropriate. I think the best result going forward would be for the secretaries to undo the mistake they made, and then for us to clarify both the rules around voting and the rules about what powers the secretaries are allowed to bestow upon themselves.

Rob

Michael Cullum

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May 26, 2016, 5:04:42 PM5/26/16
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On 26 May 2016 at 21:47, Paul Jones <pmjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 26, 2016, at 15:43, Michael Cullum <m...@michaelcullum.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> As I explained in the previous topic, we did not consult the entire FIG membership for a debate as to whether or not Dracony's vote should be counted because the only impact of including, or excluding, Dracony's vote was in terms of the count on the spreadsheet which we secretaries use to tally and record votes.

Yes, I recall you saying that.  My question to you is, where do the secretaries get the power to choose to include or exclude votes, on *any* basis?

We were not excluding his vote from anything other than our records, where it was not recorded because we were not sure if the vote was legal or not, and no discussion took place with the membership to decide if it was or not so we did not make a decision without the membership to exclude his vote, or include his vote, but rather leave it blank.
 

> I will respond briefly to the point made in the previous topic "Yes, I confess to thinking the same thing shortly after the role was voted into existence.  Perhaps the role description needs to be re-written, by someone who is not going to *hold* that role."
>
> The role was initially conceived at ZendCon, when I was not present

I was present. Among other things, "given charge of choosing which votes to include or exclude" was not one of the duties discussed.

 
As I have said, on a number of occasions, we did not exclude his vote from anything other than our record keeping, should his vote have affected whether the vote would pass or fail (which is, as far as the voting protocol is concerned in my personal interpretation, the only thing that does matter), we would have asked the membership what they wanted to do in this matter. We never claimed this power, in fact, I've explicitly pointed out that we would ask the membership what they wanted to do about this, implicitly stating that it's the membership's decision to do this action, not the secretaries.
 

>  If there are parts of the role you believe should change, then lets discuss them, but they were not raised previously so could not have been addressed.

I have brought them up in a separate thread
 
Forgive me, at the time of my typing that email those topics had not been posted. Thanks for starting those discussions.
 

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Paul M. Jones
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Thanks,

Michael Cullum

Paul Jones

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May 26, 2016, 5:12:38 PM5/26/16
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> On May 26, 2016, at 16:03, Michael Cullum <m...@michaelcullum.com> wrote:
>
>> On 26 May 2016 at 21:47, Paul Jones <pmjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I recall you saying that. My question to you is, where do the secretaries get the power to choose to include or exclude votes, on *any* basis?
>
> We were not excluding his vote from anything other than our records, where it was not recorded because we were not sure if the vote was legal or not

What, given all past experience of voting in this group, made you think it could possibly not-be legal? And what made you think you could opine on its legality, one way or the other, given that you answer to the voting members?

You also said this earlier: "It was not so much a conscious decision to exclude his vote, but to avoid making a decision without a full debate so it was never put on the sheet."

That you would unconsciously "*not* put a vote on the sheet" instead of unconsciously "put a vote on the sheet" is disheartening. It is the *opposite* of impartial and neutral. It is picking-and-choosing, and very definitely an overstepping of the bounds of your role as secretary.

Kayla Daniels

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May 26, 2016, 5:18:09 PM5/26/16
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This thread has gotten 12 posts in just over an hour. 

Let's work on that self throttling thing we do. 

Robert Hafner

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May 26, 2016, 6:04:25 PM5/26/16
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Repeatedly saying you didn't exclude it while also saying you didn't record it doesn't make sense to me. Either to vote counted and was recorded or it was didn't count and wasn't recorded.

There is absolutely nothing I can see that suggests his vote was "illegal". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but here we have a claim with no evidence at all.

Is there any specific reason why you continue to refuse to count the vote? It's obvious that the members either don't care or disagree with you, so your refusal to budge on this is becoming more of an issue.

Rob
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Michael Cullum

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May 26, 2016, 6:13:31 PM5/26/16
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I don't know quite what you are talking about Robert?

I changed the sheet to include the vote 3 hours before this topic was even created and stated I had done so in an email to the list, on the voting topic, at 17:50, on my second email into this discussion which has now consists of ~40 emails.

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Benni Mack

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May 27, 2016, 2:46:34 AM5/27/16
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Hey all,

On 26.05.2016, at 22:47, Paul Jones <pmjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
As I explained in the previous topic, we did not consult the entire FIG membership for a debate as to whether or not Dracony's vote should be counted because the only impact of including, or excluding, Dracony's vote was in terms of the count on the spreadsheet which we secretaries use to tally and record votes.

Yes, I recall you saying that.  My question to you is, where do the secretaries get the power to choose to include or exclude votes, on *any* basis?

This is running in circles TBH. Additionally, this is again a "we make a huge discussion out of nothing" topic, whereas it does not matter.

From the outside (non FIG member) it looks like: If there *would* be an impact, the secretaries would ask the whole group - but apparently this situation is not set in stone. If you need that set in stone, the FIG could do so, but this is classic "bureaucracy over trust" topic. Why does everything need to be set in stone? Because people don't trust each other. This is a sad thing to see within this mailing list. The FIG members voted to have these secretaries in place, and thus trust them to do the right thing. The secretaries behave just like that, if there would be something where all members need to be included they would say so, otherwise informing everybody is just fine. What's the big deal?

Maybe FIG needs a CoC, if discussions like that bubble up all the time, disturbing the actual goals of the group.

The more these kinds of discussions come up, the less I'm (and probably the silent majority) interested in collaborating with FIG creating more standards where it makes sense.

All the best,
Benni.
TYPO3 Core Team Leader

Phil Sturgeon

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May 27, 2016, 4:29:00 AM5/27/16
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Paul, you are spamming people. Stop.

The noise in here of late is getting absolutely ridiculous. This completely unnecessary whining, complaining, arguing, and all-round drama is an embarrassment to the group, and the secretaries need to step their game up to combat it.

Great work by the secretaries so far, but please start locking these threads faster.

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 9:09:07 AM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 03:29, Phil Sturgeon <pjstu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Paul, you are spamming people. Stop.

Phil, you are spamming in return. Stop.


> The noise in here of late is getting absolutely ridiculous.

So stop contributing to it.


> Great work by the secretaries so far, but please start locking these threads faster.

Yes, by all means, shut down conversations faster. (/me rolls eyes)

Woody Gilk

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May 27, 2016, 9:54:27 AM5/27/16
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It would really be better for everyone if Phil and Paul would stop
addressing each other on this ML. Just my $0.02.
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Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 10:06:13 AM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 08:53, Woody Gilk <woody...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It would really be better for everyone if Phil and Paul would stop
> addressing each other on this ML. Just my $0.02.

I am totally fine with that; he can stop initiating conversations with me or mentioning me (directly or indirectly!) in his comments, and in turn I won't to reply to him.

Kayla Daniels

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May 27, 2016, 12:50:00 PM5/27/16
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This thread is reaching pretty childish levels. 

Is this discussion really necessary? What outcome are we looking for here? If we do need to have this discussion can someone please indicate what the expected take-aways/outcomes are supposed to be? 

Anything to make this a constructive conversation that doesn't reflect poorly on this organization in the way that the current tone is doing (In my opinion). 

Kayla

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 12:57:30 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 11:50, Kayla Daniels <kayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything to make this a constructive conversation that doesn't reflect poorly on this organization in the way that the current tone is doing (In my opinion).

Cool; let's get back to my (as-yet-unanswered) question to Michael. It is:

"Where do the secretaries get the power to choose to include or exclude votes, on *any* basis?"

The correct answer, of course, is "from nowhere" (or alternatively "they don't have that power"), but it would be good to hear Michael explicitly give that answer himself.
Message has been deleted

Woody Gilk

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May 27, 2016, 1:04:50 PM5/27/16
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C'mon people, this is ridiculous. It's clear that Michael has
acknowledged what he did and why he did it and everyone knows that
secretaries don't have any ability to exclude or otherwise not count
votes.

Focusing on the secretaries _when they had to make a judgement call_
is not the actual issue that needs to be resolved. The bylaws
regarding secretaries are not the sound of the problem. The bylaws
should be updated to make it clear that a member cannot vote against
their own expulsion/nullifcation/excommunication.
On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Christopher Pitt <cgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh! So you're looking for him to publicly prostrate himself. Good to know.
>
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Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 1:13:06 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 11:59, Christopher Pitt <cgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So you're looking for him to publicly prostrate himself.

Acknowledgement of a mistake is not a "prostration." A simple "my bad, won't do it again" would suffice.
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Kayla Daniels

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May 27, 2016, 1:26:04 PM5/27/16
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"The bylaws should be updated to make it clear that a member cannot vote against their own expulsion/nullifcation/excommunication. "

A PR is open now to fix this. Do we need to have a 2 week discussion about it? I can start that thread. That at least would be something constructive that comes out of this. 

Christopher Pitt

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May 27, 2016, 1:29:55 PM5/27/16
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Paul: I apologise for venting. You frustrate me, but that's no excuse for me saying nasty things or using snark. I don't care to interact with you anymore, which is the main reason I withdrew from this group. Please hold me accountable to treating you professionally.

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 1:31:21 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 12:29, Christopher Pitt <cgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Paul: I apologise for venting. You frustrate me, but that's no excuse for me saying nasty things or using snark. I don't care to interact with you anymore, which is the main reason I withdrew from this group. Please hold me accountable to treating you professionally.

No harm no foul. All is well between you and me, as far as I am concerned. :-)

Jordi Boggiano

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May 27, 2016, 1:46:35 PM5/27/16
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On 27/05/2016 18:19, Christopher Pitt wrote:
> For the love of God, Michael. Please just tell Paul what he wants to
> hear so this shit can stop.

If it comes to this, I'd rather kindly ask Paul to pack his toys and go
play somewhere else. We are not subjects to His Majesty, and throwing
tantrums on the list, no matter how well argued and calm they appear on
the surface, should not be tolerated.

I have had it with the passive aggressive BS to be honest. Paul, you are
toxic as hell. It's not about you or your ideas, it's the way you
communicate that always leads to a shit-show. I don't know if you do it
willingly or not. If not I suggest you reconsider your communication
style. If yes well, enjoy that smirk.

Cheers

--
Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek - http://seld.be

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 1:57:25 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 12:46, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>
> Paul, you are toxic as hell. It's not about you or your ideas, it's the way you communicate that always leads to a shit-show.

If people didn't behave improperly, I wouldn't have to call them on it. I'm not the only one here that thinks the not-counting of a vote was improper.

Jordi Boggiano

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May 27, 2016, 2:05:45 PM5/27/16
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On 27/05/2016 18:57, Paul Jones wrote:
>
>> On May 27, 2016, at 12:46, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>>
>> Paul, you are toxic as hell. It's not about you or your ideas, it's the way you communicate that always leads to a shit-show.
>
> If people didn't behave improperly, I wouldn't have to call them on
> it. I'm not the only one here that thinks the not-counting of a vote
> was improper.

As I said, I'm not strictly against your point, but the way you make it.

Don't try to re-frame my post to be about the secretaries behavior, it
was about yours. I am all for civility and I think I usually do a decent
job of remaining calm in the face of some of the worst online behavior,
but you manage to drive me as well as many others, nuts.

You could take it as a sign that maybe the way you communicate isn't
effective and causes more conflict and damage than it's worth, or you
could not give a damn, deflect on the secretaries and move on with your
life. I was hoping that seeing this message from someone else than the
usual club of Paul-naysayers would nudge you towards the former.

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 2:14:53 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 13:05, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>
> On 27/05/2016 18:57, Paul Jones wrote:
>>
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 12:46, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>>>
>>> Paul, you are toxic as hell. It's not about you or your ideas, it's the way you communicate that always leads to a shit-show.
>>
>> If people didn't behave improperly, I wouldn't have to call them on
>> it. I'm not the only one here that thinks the not-counting of a vote
>> was improper.
>
> As I said, I'm not strictly against your point, but the way you make it.

Well, I'm open to hearing how else the point of "the secretaries don't get to choose which votes to count" can be made. That's not a re-frame, that's an honest question. How else would one state it and support it, other than how I have done?

As an aside, I'm not the only one making this point. Robert Hafner did so on this list before I did; others who have contacted me privately hold the same position.

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 2:20:49 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 12:26, Kayla Daniels <kayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "The bylaws should be updated to make it clear that a member cannot vote against their own expulsion/nullifcation/excommunication. "
>
> A PR is open now to fix this. Do we need to have a 2 week discussion about it? I can start that thread. That at least would be something constructive that comes out of this.
>
> PR for reference: https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/pull/762/files

So that its discussion is not lost in this thread where people might miss it, perhaps starting a thread specifically for that PR would be a good idea.

Jordi Boggiano

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May 27, 2016, 2:26:41 PM5/27/16
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On 27/05/2016 19:14, Paul Jones wrote:
> Well, I'm open to hearing how else the point of "the secretaries
> don't get to choose which votes to count" can be made. That's not a
> re-frame, that's an honest question. How else would one state it and
> support it, other than how I have done?

I am not going to spend my time dissecting your every words to figure
out how it could have been done better. It's not my job, it's yours as a
human being that wants to collaborate with others. If you repeatedly get
into arguments with everyone, you should think about why, and maybe ask
for help. But I am not going to bite the fact that I should prove you
wrong, that's just another page out of your rule-book.

> As an aside, I'm not the only one making this point. Robert Hafner
> did so on this list before I did; others who have contacted me
> privately hold the same position.

FWIW, others have also privately (and not so privately) told me how they
are not going to participate here anymore as long as you keep your act
up. While I wish they could glance over your behavior instead of getting
silenced or dragged down into flames every time, I am not willing to
tolerate that loss to the community. You are a smart person but not to
the extent that you offset those you turn away.

Michael Cullum

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May 27, 2016, 2:30:46 PM5/27/16
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Hi Paul,

As I said to Robert, a couple of emails into this discussion, I added the vote to our sheet and acknowledged that omitting it was not the best course of action. I also previously said in this topic "I've explicitly pointed out that we would ask the membership what they wanted to do about this, implicitly stating that it's the membership's decision to do this action, not the secretaries".

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be but:
(1) Should a decision have needed to be made on Dracony's ability to vote, we would have brought this to the membership, as it's for the membership to decide
(2) We made no decisions on whether his vote was included or excluded as we cannot include or exclude votes.
(3) The vote outcome was unaffected so we didn't see the need to drag out this drama for another four weeks (two week discussion plus potentially a two week vote).
(4) I made a mistake, which I apologise for again, but changed right at the beginning of this debate as soon as two voting members questioned it, in choosing to omit his vote from our record keeping which we did due to not knowing if the vote was legal or not.

So, discussions have started for relevant bylaw changes relating to this incident and unless anyone has anything else constructive to add, or wishes to start a discussion for a vote of no confidence, I don't think there is a huge amount more to say on this matter.

--
Michael Cullum

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Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 2:49:12 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 13:26, Jordi Boggiano <j.bog...@seld.be> wrote:
>
> On 27/05/2016 19:14, Paul Jones wrote:
>> Well, I'm open to hearing how else the point of "the secretaries
>> don't get to choose which votes to count" can be made. That's not a
>> re-frame, that's an honest question. How else would one state it and
>> support it, other than how I have done?
>
> I am not going to spend my time dissecting your every words to figure out how it could have been done better. It's not my job, it's yours as a human being that wants to collaborate with others. If you repeatedly get into arguments with everyone, you should think about why, and maybe ask for help.

Dude, I just asked for help. :-/

Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 2:53:08 PM5/27/16
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> On May 27, 2016, at 13:30, Michael Cullum <m...@michaelcullum.com> wrote:
>
> (2) We made no decisions on whether his vote was included or excluded as we cannot include or exclude votes.
...
> (4) I made a mistake, which I apologise for

This is clear enough for me. Accepted, and very good, sir.

In future, I trust that the secretaries will not overstep their bounds in this way again.

Samantha Quinones

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May 27, 2016, 3:03:16 PM5/27/16
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As a reminder, members are expected to self-throttle and avoid flooding the mailing list. I do not want to be forced to lock another thread.

Thank you,
Samantha 

Mike van Riel

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May 27, 2016, 4:03:08 PM5/27/16
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Breaking the silence for a moment to support the words of Jordi. One of the reasons of my continued leave of absence is that every time I even remotely get the tendency of returning to the mailing list; pick up my duties and try to help out I see a discussion that turns toxic because of the inciteful way Paul appears to force people to say what he wants them to say and to force an outcome that suits him.

My time, mental energy and passion is better spent in areas where my energy doesn’t get sucked away by someone who doesn’t show that he knows how to collaborate with others, who gives no impression that he reflects on his own behaviour and repeatedly blames and intimidates those with whom he has a discussion.
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Paul Jones

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May 27, 2016, 5:11:00 PM5/27/16
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Mike, man, I like you, but this is just not true:

> On May 27, 2016, at 15:02, Mike van Riel <draco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> someone who doesn’t show that he knows how to collaborate with others

... since collaborating with others as lead/editor on 3 PSRs, as a sponsor of 1 more, officially as coordinator on 1 more, and presumptively (pending a vote) on yet another, is clearly a sign of -- wait, what?

Mike van Riel

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May 27, 2016, 5:35:47 PM5/27/16
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On 27 May 2016 23:11, "Paul Jones" <pmjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mike, man, I like you, but this is just not true:
>
> > On May 27, 2016, at 15:02, Mike van Riel <draco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > someone who doesn’t show that he knows how to collaborate with others
>
> ... since collaborating with others as lead/editor on 3 PSRs, as a sponsor of 1 more, officially as coordinator on 1 more, and presumptively (pending a vote) on yet another, is clearly a sign of -- wait, what?
>

And interestingly enough you get into an unpleasant argument with a significant frequency and with a varying number of people. How would you describe that?

Even now: to me your response seems dismissive and it demonstrates to me an unwillingness to reflect on recent events and consider how your behaviour has influenced these.

I'm not trying to claim that you are not active. But being active does not persé equal being good at collaboration.

Samantha Quiñones

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May 27, 2016, 6:16:59 PM5/27/16
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This thread has gone off the rails entirely and I am locking it now. On-topic discussion may continue in the relevant policy proposal threads, but I remind the members that you are expected to self-throttle in those discussions as you would in any FIG ML thread.

Everyone involved in this organization is an adult. It should not be necessary to turn on comment moderation to protect list subscribers' inboxes from being flooded, but that is something we may need to consider if this behavior continues.

Thanks,
Samantha Quiñones
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