Philadelphia and Western Trolley
Tom Williams
continued from Norristown to Reading? It ran on Ridge Pike
from Norristown to Pottstown (the old US 422), High St in
Pottstown (an older 422), and Route 422 (I think the
eastbound lanes are the original) from Pottstown to
Reading. This explains why Ridge Pike is three lanes now,
and four in some places where the sidings were .
lwin
The P&W terminated in Norristown. Lehigh Valley Transit ran
from there to Allentown.
Tom Williams
> The P&W did NOT run to Reading. Another trolley line did.
Which line? When did service start/stop?
m greene
There was a trolley line that ran from Norristown to Reading,
long ago. It did not completely follow the Schuylkill valley, but
turned north at Pottstown to run to Boyertown, and then ran to
Reading. On the east end, the line ran to Barren Hill, where the line
split. One branch ran along Germantown Pike to Northwestern Avenue,
where it physically connected with the PRT. A second branch ran to
Roxborough, Manayunk, and terminated at the Reading's Wissahickon
Station. It was abandoned in segments, starting in 1927, when the
Pottstown-Boyertown segment closed down, and , except for local
service within Reading, was gone by 1933.
(This system, unlike P&W, used Philadelphia-gage trolleys, as
did the Southern Penn and the Wilmington, DE system...it was possible,
theoretically, for a trolley to run on its own wheels from New Castle,
DE through Wilmington, Chester, Phjiladelphia, and Norristown, to
Reading, and some ways beyond. It did not connect with the Pottstown
system, since it was standard gage.)
Later
Michael T. Greene
George Robbins
see: http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi/norristown.html
http://www.ectma.org/collection.html
In article <3a2a2600...@netnews.voicenet.com>, m greene wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 06:29:20 GMT, Tom Williams
><tom.wi...@hans.nospam> wrote:
>
> There was a trolley line that ran from Norristown to Reading,
>long ago. It did not completely follow the Schuylkill valley, but
>turned north at Pottstown to run to Boyertown, and then ran to
>Reading. On the east end, the line ran to Barren Hill, where the line
>split. One branch ran along Germantown Pike to Northwestern Avenue,
>where it physically connected with the PRT. A second branch ran to
>Roxborough, Manayunk, and terminated at the Reading's Wissahickon
>Station. It was abandoned in segments, starting in 1927, when the
>Pottstown-Boyertown segment closed down, and , except for local
>service within Reading, was gone by 1933.
> (This system, unlike P&W, used Philadelphia-gage trolleys, as
>did the Southern Penn and the Wilmington, DE system...it was possible,
>theoretically, for a trolley to run on its own wheels from New Castle,
>DE through Wilmington, Chester, Phjiladelphia, and Norristown, to
>Reading, and some ways beyond. It did not connect with the Pottstown
>system, since it was standard gage.)
>
> Later
>
> Michael T. Greene
--
George Robbins - now working for work: g...@netaxs.com
Net Access - seemed like the best uucp: ...!uunet!netaxs.com!grr
way to help improve service... play: g...@tharsis.com
Mike Szilagyi
Schuylkill Valley system. Rather, it was the Lehigh Valley Transit
Company's Liberty Bell Route. Their cars used the rails of the P&W from
Upper Darby to Norristown, then descended to street level by a long
structure that terminated adjacent to the county court house. From
there the trolleys went up the hill to Airy Street, turned left, went
down the hill to the foot of the bridge at Markley Street, then headed
north on Markley into East Norriton Township where the rails curved on
to high-speed private right of way. The cars would attain 80 mph at
times.
The Liberty Bell trolleys ran from 1912 until 1951. The high speed line
connected Norristown, Lansdale, Quakertown and Allentown and points in
between on a right of way that varied from high speed private roadbed,
to traditional roadside tracks, to the center of the street in towns.
Much of the roadbed still exists as a PECO right-of-way. Towards the
end the line saw frequent collisions with burgeoning postwar automobile
traffic, and one 1942 collision between trolleys along Route 202 near
Germantown Pike claimed 12 lives.
The Schuylkill Valley trolley lines were more traditional (read: slower)
suburban car lines and were replaced with buses in 1933. I have posted
a 1932 photo of the Schuylkill Valley line, taken on Ridge Pike in
Trooper:
http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi/svt119.jpg
Mike.
Tom Williams
George Robbins wrote:
> some additional info:
>
> see: http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi/norristown.html
> http://www.ectma.org/collection.html
Ok, now you've got my attention. This is quite interesting....I'd heard
that the trolleys did go from Norristown to Reading, but on to Carlisle?
Actually that does make sense as I've seen pictures of High Street in
Carlisle with the tracks going down the middle. IIRC, the original
Cumberland Valley RR alignment (became part of the PRR in 1800's) ran
closer to the center of town than it does now. PRR at some point bypassed
the downtown, although the "bypass" now runs through town at funny angles,
as the town expanded. The CVRR no longer continues past Carlisle, it is
being made into a rail trail to Shippensburg.
There is recent talk of resuming passenger service on the old CVRR (now
Norfolk Southern Mechanicsburg secondary?) line, using some type of light
rail. This project is known as "Corridor One" and the Harrisburg transit
agency (Capital Area Transit) purchased the CVRR bridge across the
Susquehanna via City Island from Conrail a few years ago.
So did the trolleys use the CVRR alignments west of Harrisburg to Carlisle,
or did they take another route?
And how well did commuter rail and the trolleys compete with one another?
I imagine it would have taken forever for a trolley to reach Philly from
Reading.
Which roads did the trolleys use between Pottstown and Reading?
Mike Szilagyi
Harrisburg, but there was no through service. One would have to
transfer several times: there were perhaps four (or more) different
transit companies involved. Certainly Harrisburg and Hershey were
independent systems.
Schuylkill Valley passenger trolleys from Chestnut Hill (through
Norristown) only ran as far as Boyertown. At that point one transferred
to cars bound for Reading. Even after the Schuylkill Valley and Reading
trolley systems were under the same ownership, through passenger service
was not implemented. On the other hand freight trolleys did run
straight through to Reading until 1927 or so.
From Chestnut Hill interurban cars followed side-of-the-road trackage on
Germantown Pike and Sandy Hill Road.
From Norristown interurbans followed Ridge Pike through Collegeville and
Limerick. There was some private right-of-way approaching Pottstown.
After running in the streets of Pottstown (not the same streets used by
Pottstown's independent trolley system) rails ran north on private
right-of-way past Ringing Rocks park to Swamp Pike. Bridge piers can
still be seen there. Passengers transferred to Reading cars in
Boyertown.
From Boyertown to Reading the line followed mostly private right-of-way.
West of Reading I'm not as certain of the routing. The Reading system
was a large one serving several surrounding towns such as Shillington
until 1953. Some old Norristown cars served until that time.
I'll try to scan and post what maps I have.
Mike.
Amtrek
news:3A2C8433...@hans.nospam...
> And how well did commuter rail and the trolleys compete with one another?
The competition was apparently very bitter, at least in one instance I read
of. Although this story does not relate to the line being discussed, I
though you might be interested and amused to read how the PRR opposed the
construction of another street railway. It concerns the Newtown Electric
Street Railway Company. This is an excerpt from a 1934 book on the history
of Newtown, PA:
"...In May, 1899, tracks were laid under the "Cut-Off" bridge of the
Pennsylvania Railroad. On the 12th of that month a railroad wrecking crew of
200 men came up, and just after the mail car had passed under the bridge and
was standing there, they dropped their hooks and took up the rails, letting
the car down on the ground. That night the Newtown Fire Company, with
several of the townsmen, took their engine down, and while the workmen
relaid the track, the firemen drenched the train crew, but they in turn cut
the hose with their picks.
The Railroad served an injunction on the Trolley Company, delaying the work.
All that summer, the trolley passengers had to walk several hundred yards
under the stone arches of the railroad right-of-way, to make their
connections. The case was taken to a higher court where it was settled in
favor of the trolley company, and that fall on October 21, 1899, the track
was relaid, and there was a complete line again between Newtown and
Bristol."
(NOTE: For those in the Philadelphia area, the location mentioned above is
where Route 413 goes under the old stone bridge of the old Trenton Cutoff.)
Tom Williams
> Tom Williams <tom.wi...@hans.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3A2C8433...@hans.nospam...
> > And how well did commuter rail and the trolleys compete with one another?
>
Very interesting, thanks. The trolley probably lent itself well to shorter
trips between outlying towns, while the commuter rail most likely was favored
for Philadelphia bound travellers.
Tom Williams
> There was a patchwork of trolley systems between Philadelphia and
> Harrisburg, but there was no through service. One would have to
> transfer several times: there were perhaps four (or more) different
> transit companies involved. Certainly Harrisburg and Hershey were
> independent systems.
>
> Schuylkill Valley passenger trolleys from Chestnut Hill (through
> Norristown) only ran as far as Boyertown. At that point one transferred
> to cars bound for Reading. Even after the Schuylkill Valley and Reading
> trolley systems were under the same ownership, through passenger service
> was not implemented. On the other hand freight trolleys did run
> straight through to Reading until 1927 or so.
>
> From Chestnut Hill interurban cars followed side-of-the-road trackage on
> Germantown Pike and Sandy Hill Road.
>
> From Norristown interurbans followed Ridge Pike through Collegeville and
> Limerick. There was some private right-of-way approaching Pottstown.
> After running in the streets of Pottstown (not the same streets used by
> Pottstown's independent trolley system) rails ran north on private
> right-of-way past Ringing Rocks park to Swamp Pike. Bridge piers can still
> be seen there. Passengers transferred to Reading cars in Boyertown.
I'm somewhat famililar with this area. Where are the piers visible?
> From Boyertown to Reading the line followed mostly private right-of-way.
>
> West of Reading I'm not as certain of the routing. The Reading system
> was a large one serving several surrounding towns such as Shillington
> until 1953. Some old Norristown cars served until that time.
>
> I'll try to scan and post what maps I have.
That would be great. Thanks!
Mike Szilagyi
> Some of the trolley line near Valley Forge was captured on
> film as part of Lubin Studio's silent "Toonerville Trolley" series. A
> handful of these films survive and a selection is shown each spring at
> Montgomery County Community College's Betzwood Film Festival. More info
> at: http://www.mc3.edu/gen/faculty/jeckhard/bwoodfa.htm.
To follow up on my own post,
One fascinating scene in one of the Toonerville movies shows the trolley
bridge over Valley Creek, with a high dam behind it. This spot is just
south of where the Route 23 bridge crosses Valley Creek, near
Washington's Headquarters. There is still some earthwork for the
right-of-way visible there today (to the west of the creek). In the
movie, the trolley motorman "The Skipper" keeps a bottle of liquor under
the bridge. He always stops the trolley on the bridge and "pretends
there's something wrong under the car." The Lubin Studios used a
special-built trolley (looked just like the one in the comic strip) but
the trolley line itself was the actual Phoenixville line.
Photo of the Lubin Toonerville trolley at:
http://www.mc3.edu/gen/faculty/jeckhard/toonerv.htm
Mike.
Mike Szilagyi
It was part of the Pottstown trolley operation, and was not connected to
the Schuylkill Valley Traction Company. As was typical in that time, a
large traffic generator was a park along the line. I believe the
trolleys continued in operation until 1938.
There was a plan to connect that Linfield line to the Valley
Forge-Phoenixville-Spring City trolley line but the cost of constructing
a connecting bridge over the Schuylkill River near the state hospital
was never in the budget. The Phoenixville trolley ended in the
mid-1920s. Some of the trolley line near Valley Forge was captured on
film as part of Lubin Studio's silent "Toonerville Trolley" series. A
handful of these films survive and a selection is shown each spring at
Montgomery County Community College's Betzwood Film Festival. More info
at: http://www.mc3.edu/gen/faculty/jeckhard/bwoodfa.htm.
Mike.
JimE wrote:
>
> >> From Norristown interurbans followed Ridge Pike through Collegeville and
> >> Limerick. There was some private right-of-way approaching Pottstown.
>
> I've seen some ROW and bridge abutments in the area before Pottsdown,
> down towards the Schulkill river. I don't remember the road names,
> but you turn off of the main road (Ridge Pike?) towards the river at
> Cutilo's restaurant and head down that road, they were somewhere in
> the area. On a somewhat related note, does anyone know if that
> private Reading caboose is still displayed by the ex-Reading ROW next
> to the river?
>
> JimE (within view of the ex-Reading Bethlehem Branch)
Mike Szilagyi
conflicts, in the 1890's, between the established railroads and the
upstart trolley companies in several towns. In Norristown, trolleys and
steam engines were used by the respective companies to block the
crossing at the foot of Dekalb Street. I seem to recall (don't have the
book here) that the switch engine was used to push a trolley off the
tracks. Both companies hired "construction crews" of hundreds of men in
a show of force. And at Collegeville shots were fired but no one
injured.
The steam railroads would stop at nothing to stop the construction of
trolley lines. Once they were built, however, the trolleys in fact
served as feeders to the railroad stations, in many cases. True trolley
competition to the steam railroads, such as that posed by the P&W and
the Lehigh Valley Transit's Liberty Bell Route, were the exception
rather than the rule. Most trolley systems were slow, and were
abandoned rather than upgraded in the 1920s and '30s.
Mike.
P.S. I bought "Trolleys of Montgomery County" in about 1973 from (the
late great) Gene's books in King of Prussia...
Amtrek wrote:
>
> Tom Williams <tom.wi...@hans.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3A2C8433...@hans.nospam...
> > And how well did commuter rail and the trolleys compete with one another?
>
Tom Williams
> The trolley line you're referring to connected Pottstown and Linfield.
> It was part of the Pottstown trolley operation, and was not connected to
> the Schuylkill Valley Traction Company. As was typical in that time, a
> large traffic generator was a park along the line. I believe the
> trolleys continued in operation until 1938.
>
> There was a plan to connect that Linfield line to the Valley
> Forge-Phoenixville-Spring City trolley line but the cost of constructing
> a connecting bridge over the Schuylkill River near the state hospital
> was never in the budget.
By state hospital, are you referring to Pennhurst by any chance? (such a spooky
place)
Also, since you are knowledgeable about the area, I'd appreciate any comments you
have on my companion thread, "Reading Railroad vs. Penn RR (historical)."
Mike Szilagyi
>
> Mike Szilagyi wrote:
>
> > The trolley line you're referring to connected Pottstown and Linfield.
> > It was part of the Pottstown trolley operation, and was not connected to
> > the Schuylkill Valley Traction Company. As was typical in that time, a
> > trolleys continued in operation until 1938.
> >
> > There was a plan to connect that Linfield line to the Valley
> > Forge-Phoenixville-Spring City trolley line but the cost of constructing
> > a connecting bridge over the Schuylkill River near the state hospital
> > was never in the budget.
>
> By state hospital, are you referring to Pennhurst by any chance? (such a spooky
> place)
Yes, Pennhurst. Another Harold Cox book (Chester County Trolleys IIRC)
mentioned the fact that the last attempt to link the Pottstown and
Phoenixville trolley systems -- by spanning the Schuylkill River -- was
stymied by federal regs regarding the bridging of navigable waterways.
This was during World War 1.
> Also, since you are knowledgeable about the area, I'd appreciate any comments you
> have on my companion thread, "Reading Railroad vs. Penn RR (historical)."
My ISP has been screwing up with the news groups lately, so I haven't
seen that thread. Can you re-post? With any luck at all I'll see the
thread this time.
Tom Williams
> My ISP has been screwing up with the news groups lately, so I haven't
> seen that thread. Can you re-post? With any luck at all I'll see the
> thread this time.
The following is a repost from another thread.
What is the history of the Philadelphia & Reading RR Schuylkill mainline, and the Penn
Schuylkill Division? Was Penn single track for this entire route? It looks like Penn
served industries on one side of the river, and Reading on the other, but there are
exceptions. For example, there is a PRR bridge north of Spring City where a PRR siding
appears to serve an industrial complex next to the RDG line.
Heading north in Douglasville, PA, the Penn line crosses back to the south side of the
river. On the south shore of this bridge and adjacent to the tracks was a waste
oil/PCB plant called Douglasville Disposal that ended up being a major Superfund site.
A 1996 court case regarding this site was <Consolidated Rail Corporation v Reading
Company> (The RR holding company's successor lived on as a property mgt company after
its railroad assets were transferred to Conrail). Conrail was found partially liable
to the Superfund expenses, because its successor, The Reading Railroad, once served the
facility at least as late as 1972, which was grounds for liability under a rail act.
Conrail wanted to recover the expenses from the Reading Company, 16
years after the latter returned from bankruptcy. The court upheld that Conrail was
responsible, as it was the rail successor, not the Reading Company, which had been
separated from railroad assets--and railroad liablities. I'm not writing this to
debate the points of pollution liability, however, and the reasons for the case are
much more complicated than what I described.
So where am I going with this? How could the Reading Railroad have served this site on
the South side of the
river??? The only line on this side in this area was Penn. It doesn't make sense.
Here's a map, the Disposal lagoons are the magenta shaded areas near the words "Penn
Central" on either sides of the track. Did RDG ever operate this section of track?
Map: (copy and paste link if part gets truncated onto next line.)
http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=546&Y=5570&Z=18&W=1
[For the case facts, see http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/getcase/3rd/case/971617p.html
Interesting reading.]
The PRR Schuylkill Division was abandoned by Conrail in the early 1980's. The line
will eventually become the Thun trail.
What if this PRR line was still in use today? Norfolk Southern, which operates the
double track former RDG line, is concerned about the proposed Schuylkill metro commuter
rail because of track congestion on their heavily(!) used freight tracks (with many at
grade crossings to boot). It seems that if another line was available nearby, it would
allow more flexibility, and the possibilty of being double tracked in the future to
make it completely independent from the freight lines.
Rail line information for this segment of track:
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/rails/inact/06_458.idc
Mike Szilagyi
main line was built very early, like 1838 or so. (The railroad opened
not long after the parallel canal was finished! The canal wasn't
officially closed to navigation until the 1930s.)
The Pennsy Schuylkill division was built later, I think in the 1860s but
I'm not sure. That's why it's located on higher ground between Manayunk
and Norristown, out of the flood plain.
I remember seeing Penn Central switchers on the Pennsy under the
Betzwood (now 422) bridge in the late 1970s, maybe even early 80s.
Incidentally the industrial buildings at that location were originally
part of the Lubin film studios. The large spanish tile-roofed buildings
still stand, but recently the owners demolished concrete bunkers on the
river bank that had been originally built to store the (unstable and
flammable) films.
I don't have information about the situation at Douglassville. Gotta
love Terraserver though! What a great resource.
As far as the rails-to-trails thing goes, I do ride a bike but I really
hate to see bike paths built on what could still be viable rail
rights-of-way. Ideally rights-of-way that are contested by the transit
and bike factions could be designed to accomodate both. For instance,
placing rails back on the rail bed, and placing a parallel 10' paved
bikeway elsewhere in the right-of-way, where that's possible. Just a
thought (though no doubt a contentious one).
Mike.
Tom Williams
I agree. Trouble is though, pedestrians and trains don't mix, even when 10'
feet apart, unless there was a anti-stupidity fence the entire way, which
wouldn't be practical. Could you just imagine the lawsuit against the
trail club (and railroad) after the first accident?
Douglas Smith
> I agree. Trouble is though, pedestrians and trains don't mix, even when 10'
> feet apart, unless there was a anti-stupidity fence the entire way, which
> wouldn't be practical. Could you just imagine the lawsuit against the
> trail club (and railroad) after the first accident?
And Smitty replies:
I like your line of thought. :) Reminds me of a sticker I found which is a
takeoff on Haley Joel Osmont's line in the movie, "The Sixth Sense". It reads,
"I see dumb people!"
er130t...@gmail.com
jimboylan
> The Pennsy Schuylkill division was built later, I think in the 1860s but I'm not sure. That's why it's located on higher ground between Manayunk and Norristown, out of the flood plain.
When the Feds sued for Superfund cleanup money, they used a very wide net and made mistakes. The Reading Company could have been a suspected customer of Douglasville Disposal, perhaps by trying to sell them a gallon of used locomotive oil.