Philly Subterranea...
Lei Chen
I am currently preparing a website on the Philly subways, focussing on:
1. Planned but never built sections
2. Built but never used / abandoned sections.
While I've gathered a large amount of material, I still have two major gaps
in my research.
Firstly, a large subway station was apparently built at Roosevelt Boulevard
underneath the Sears building in the 60's. It was never used as the Broad
Street extension remained unbuilt. The station is allegedly gone now. Does
anyone have more details on this and or photographs of the station?
(copyright will be respected).
Secondly, a small section of the once planned centre city loop was
apparently constructed under Arch. I have no further detail regarding the
section that was actually built, and any information will be most
appreciated.
Regards
LC
Exile on Market Street
> Hi All,
>
> I am currently preparing a website on the Philly subways, focussing on:
> 1. Planned but never built sections
> 2. Built but never used / abandoned sections.
>
You might want to check your facts against Michael Greene's.
AFAIK, there was only one subway-elevated line in the city to be
abandoned (as opposed to never used): the elevated line over Delaware
Avenue to South Street, which opened as part of the original Market
Street subway-elevated in 1907 and closed sometime around 1932.
And though there are two abandoned subway *stations*, AFAIK, all the
empty subway *tunnels* were never used, not abandoned.
> Secondly, a small section of the once planned centre city loop was
> apparently constructed under Arch. I have no further detail regarding the
> section that was actually built, and any information will be most
> appreciated.
There were two sections built--one in the 1300 block of Arch and one in
the same block of Locust. The latter was incorporated into the 1952
Locust Street subway.
--
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team Member webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"I have heard it said that no good deed goes unpunished, but I don't
intend to let that discourage me."
---------------------Walter Annenberg (1908-2002), on his philanthropy--
Lei Chen
"Michael Greene" is a resource I have not yet come across. If you can
supply me some info on him, I'd appreciate it.
I've not really explored the elevated lines, and don't intend to at this
stage. My interest lies in subterranean structures that were (1) planned
and never built (2) built but never completed or used, and (3) actually
commissioned but then abandoned.
I have quite a bit of material on the abandoned Ridge-8th Street Subway
station at Spring Garden street and the abandoned PATCO station at Franklin
Square, included some nice photographs. I was not really aware that the
Locust section ever operated as the Locust Street Subway. I have a 1954 map
that designates it as such, but was under the impression that it was only
commissioned in the form of the Locust Street-Camden line, the successor to
the Delaware Bridge Speed Line and the forunner of the PATCO line.
The section built in the 1300 block of Arch is definitely the section that I
am most curious about. Any info on this section would be appreciated.
Then, I am still interested in the Roosevelt Boulevard / Adams Street
station.
Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated.
Ciao
LC
as the forerunner of the
"Exile on Market Street" <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3DA7C6BA...@pobox.upenn.edu...
Hal Schirmer
Ben Franklin bridge's towers were supposebly designed to have links from
current patco to planned trolley lines, or perhaps the Market Frankford,
Henry Ave bridge is reputed to have those odd vented box culverts underneath
in anticipation of a Northwestern extension of some form of mass transit or
subway...
Also, the Market street subway west of 15th opened in 1907 (east in 1908)
and presumably connected by a bridge over the schuylkill, since it took till
1933 for the Market Frankford to tunnel under the Schuylkill. Around that
time there was mention of someone starting a Schuylkill tunnel to take the
Locust Street Subway under the Schuylkill- although that may be an
anachronism or a mistaken reference to sewer interceptor construction in
that area much later on.
One interesting subway tale is that one reason the northward further
extension of the Broad Street Subway was stopped was that the city no longer
needed the dirt and fill to build up south Philly-
one the city filled in the swamps south of Passyunk Ave for real estate
development and the
Sesqui Centenial, the city cut off the supply of money to dig...
There's also the open question of what is left of all those underground coal
supply tunnels that used to interconnect the Port Richmond docks and the
heart of the city...
Perhaps the Sears underground terminal was simply a trolley underpass?
Much like the apocryphal Art Museum Train Station? - which is more likely a
reference to the old Eaking Oval tolley tunnel?..
Hal Schirmer
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:E0Ip9.1098$1P1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Exile on Market Street
> You might want to check the histories of the major bridges,
> Ben Franklin bridge's towers were supposebly designed to have links from
> current patco to planned trolley lines,
Minor nit: the rapid-transit lines outboard of the main deck and towers
had no provisions for stations on the bridge. The stations in the
bridge *anchorages* (not towers) were indeed meant to serve trolley
tracks, which were never installed (the Camden trolleys that were to use
the tracks ceased operation in 1932, six years after the bridge's
opening). The outer two roadway lanes occupy the space intended for the
trolley tracks. If you look carefully over the outboard Jersey barriers
as you pass the anchorages, you can spot the covers for the stairwells
from trolley platform to station hall.
When the DRPA celebrated the bridge's 75th anniversary in 2001, it
offered tours of the anchorages and the never-used trolley stations.
Huge crowds, many of which (myself included) never were able to step
inside the anchorages, turned out to see them. I hope the DRPA offers
these tours again some day soon.
A terminal for the Camden trolleys was to be located in a loop station
beneath the entrance plaza at the bridge's west end. You can see the
unfinished space when you look to the left on any westbound PATCO train
as it enters the subway on the Philly end of the bridge.
> Also, the Market street subway west of 15th opened in 1907 (east in 1908)
> and presumably connected by a bridge over the schuylkill, since it took till
> 1933 for the Market Frankford to tunnel under the Schuylkill.
The West Philadelphia extension of the Market Street subway (22d to 44th
Sts plus surface-car subway to 40th and Woodland) opened in 1955. I
don't believe any work was done on the tunnel prior to World War II.
The original Market Street subway tunnel portal was at 24th, with a
station at 23d just inside the portal. This met a city requirement that
the original Market Street rapid-transit line operate underground
between the rivers. There was a bridge, just north of the existing
Market Street span but south of where today's JFK Blvd bridge sits, that
carried the trolley tracks to the surface and the subway tracks to the
West Philly elevated.
> Around that
> time there was mention of someone starting a Schuylkill tunnel to take the
> Locust Street Subway under the Schuylkill- although that may be an
> anachronism or a mistaken reference to sewer interceptor construction in
> that area much later on.
I suspect the latter, for AFAIK, there has been no construction work
performed on any rapid-transit tunnel aligned with Locust west from
Rittenhouse Square. (The existing Locust Street tunnel ends just shy of
18th Street.)
> One interesting subway tale is that one reason the northward further
> extension of the Broad Street Subway was stopped was that the city no longer
> needed the dirt and fill to build up south Philly-
> one the city filled in the swamps south of Passyunk Ave for real estate
> development and the
> Sesqui Centenial, the city cut off the supply of money to dig...
This I've not heard anywhere else. Provision for northerly extension of
the BSS main stem was made in the tunnel north of Olney, but I don't
recall any actual authorization of construction for the route. (As
opposed, say, to the Northeast and Northwest Spurs, both of which were
authorized by City Councils, though no final route for the Northwest
spur was ever selected, IIRC.)
Olney was always to have been the initial northern terminus of the Broad
Street Line, which the original 1913 rapid-transit proposal had running
*elevated* north of Erie.
Peter Angelides
remember seeing clippings from the Philadelphia Bulletin in the Free Library
that said there two or three setions built. You could ask the librarians
there to help you. There is no way you could find the clippings on your
own.
Also, you might want to try the city archives at Temple. They have all
sorts of cool stuff, and they might well have blueprints or some such
documentation.
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:28Xp9.2543$1P1.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Lei Chen
Thanks for the feedback. If I may ask, how far did you manage to get with
your research?
Ciao
LC
"Peter Angelides" <pe...@angelides.net> wrote in message
news:DWKdnUUwiMk...@News.GigaNews.Com...
Lei Chen
I'm fairly confident on the Sears station. I managed to find a reference to
it on the net today. While by no means definitive, it does support the once
existence of the station and ties in with the extended tracks from Olney.
I know nothing about Eaking Oval though....:)
Ciao
LC
"Hal Schirmer" <h...@jtan.com> wrote in message
news:H3vxpu.Mx...@news.jtan.com...
Exile on Market Street
> Thanks for the info.
>
> I'm fairly confident on the Sears station. I managed to find a reference to
> it on the net today. While by no means definitive, it does support the once
> existence of the station and ties in with the extended tracks from Olney.
IIRC, the Northeast Spur of the Broad Street Subway was to tie into the
main line at Erie, not Olney. A pair of tracks there rises to an upper
level from the local tracks north of the station. (Ridge Spur trains
used these tracks to short-turn during peak hours [off-peak, they turned
at Girard] before they were extended to Fern Rock while the ex-Reading
main was rebuilt in the early 1990s.) Given that the line was to follow
Northeast (Roosevelt) Boulevard, it would have had to feed in around
here -- Hunting Park Avenue has a station located directly beneath it.
> I know nothing about Eaking Oval though....:)
That's a two-lane tunnel running from 23d and Spring Garden Streets to
the east end of the Spring Garden Street bridge, just below the Art
Museum's southern corner. One lane carries auto traffic today,
westbound only; the other is no longer used. An apocryphal tale has it
that a station was built for a planned Parkway-Roxborough
subway-elevated line beneath the Art Museum as well; the line as
proposed in 1913 would have passed beneath Eakins Oval en route to a
29th Street elevated line. AFAIK, no such station exists.
Jim Kriebel
<smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hal Schirmer wrote:
> > You might want to check the histories of the major bridges,
> > Ben Franklin bridge's towers were supposebly designed to have links from
> > current patco to planned trolley lines,
>
> Minor nit: the rapid-transit lines outboard of the main deck and towers
> had no provisions for stations on the bridge. The stations in the
> bridge *anchorages* (not towers) were indeed meant to serve trolley
> tracks, which were never installed (the Camden trolleys that were to use
> the tracks ceased operation in 1932, six years after the bridge's
> opening). The outer two roadway lanes occupy the space intended for the
> trolley tracks. If you look carefully over the outboard Jersey barriers
> as you pass the anchorages, you can spot the covers for the stairwells
> from trolley platform to station hall.
>
I posted this in 1998:
(book picked up at a house sale)
Report to the
DELAWARE RIVER BRIDGE JOINT COMMISSION
of the states of
PENNSYLVANIA AND NEW JERSEY
on the
BRIDGE OVER THE DELAWARE RIVER
connecting
Philadelphia, Pa & Camdem NJ
It's a large, skinny paperback - 20 inches wide, 12 high and about 50
pages. It came out around 1919. It's chock full of prints, diagrams & maps
and unfortunately in rough condition (the spine is held together with
tape). It has diagrams and discuusion for the 5 locations the BF bridge
was proposed:
1) Spring Garden to State Street
2) Race Street to Pearl Street
3) Market Street to Market Street
4) Washington Square to Federal Street
5) Lombard Street to Clinton Street
Some of the plates are so large (they fill the page) that they won't fit
on my scanner (there is even a fold out that's close to 30 inches). There
is even a map showing all the affected properties in Phila and Camdem for
the bridges ultimate location (not just the properties - but the owners
and/or businesses are named) sadly it's another large plate.
I've scanned a few of them and you can look here:
http://www.obgyn.upenn.edu/special/kriebel/bridge/bridge.htm
Warning: the pictures are big - I didn't do much to shrink the size.
The comparrison picture shows cross sections from NYC bridges.
Jim
Jim Kriebel
kri...@obgyn.upenn.edu (Jim Kriebel) wrote:
> http://www.obgyn.upenn.edu/special/kriebel/bridge/bridge.htm
>
Oops - this link should be:
http://www.obgyn.upenn.edu/Special/Kriebel/bridge/bridge.htm
Jim
Sean
and the Boulevard. After the massive implosion of the Sears complex the
station was sealed to my knowledge. I used to live a couple of blocks from
there and the is a pedestrian tunnel underneath the Boulevard right there at
Adams. You can see the ventilation shaft in the center median.
Denno
--
Dennis
Email: sixr...@hotmail.com or
vze2...@verizon.net
Web Page: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2c2cv/
"Jim Kriebel" <kri...@obgyn.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:kriebel-1410...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Lei Chen
actually know that the oval in front of the musuem was known as Eakins Oval.
My research so far has shown that no work was ever done on the Parkway
Subway line. The only subterranean lines in the area are the city branch
Reading line that runs fully underneath Pennsylvania Ave from 21st to 26th.
The line along the Schuykill enters a tunnel just south of the Art musuem
and runs underground at the foot of the art museum to join with the
citybranch tunnel post 25th and pennsylvania ave.
I know that there were some relatively recent discussions around using the
Pennsylvania ave tunnel for a light rail system. This is however wishful
thinking as part of the cut has been converted into a parking lot, the type
up from the Schuykill line is still in use and the Reading company are known
for their inferior build quality (meaning the tunnel is most likely no
longer sound and will require extensive investment). Besides that, most of
it (between Callowhill and Spring Garden) is simply in the wrong place.
The only existing net link (that I can find) for the Sears station is
http://www.whyy.org/tv12/secrets/subway.html
Thanks for the info.
Ciao
"Exile on Market Street" <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3DAA4545...@pobox.upenn.edu...
Lei Chen
Thanks for this info. Do you know what the location of the station was -
was it underneath the Sears building ( and hence destroyed in the implosion)
or was it adjacent to the building?
What has been constructed on the site of the building?
Regards
LC
"Sean" <sda...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:aoen3i$es2$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
D.F. Manno
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Thanks for this info. Do you know what the location of the station was -
> was it underneath the Sears building ( and hence destroyed in the
> implosion) or was it adjacent to the building?
>
> What has been constructed on the site of the building?
A shopping center.
--
D.F. Manno
domm...@netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)
dickwyll
hearing that it was indeed destroyed, but it probably was with the
implosion.
The subway under Arch St. is still intact and is used by the city as
storage. I don't know of anyone ever having gone down into it.
The Locust St. subway was built as part of the Ridge Ave Line to form a
distribution loop through Center City. I remember trains continuing through
from Ridge Ave in the 50's and 60's. The Bridge Line, forerunner to PATCO,
used it starting in 1936. When PATCO was constructed, the Ridge Ave. line
was separated and diverted to an upper lever station. You can still see the
tracks running alongside the PATCO line north of 8th & Market.
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:SWGq9.5990$1P1.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
dickwyll
were to be an extension of the Broad St. line branching off of the main
section north of Erie Ave at Pike St. It was to run up to the Boulevard,
under it, then continue north on the Northeast Freeway, which was never
built.
A bond issue was approved concurrent with the construction of Veterans
Stadium and the South Phila extension of the Broad St. Line.
The Northeast Freeway, on an alignment with Pennway St where electric lines
now run. It was to be a continuation of the Tacony Expressway, which was
supposed to come off the Betsy Ross Bridge, follow Tacony Creek and continue
to the Northeast Freeway. It was killed when the, I think, Supreme Court
ruled that parkland could not be used for expressway construction under the
conditions planned. This was one of the first victories that halted
unbridled expressway construction that had started after WWII and continued
into the 70's, ripping through urban neighborhoods all over the country.
Without the Northeast Freeway, the city could not afford to build the subway
extension itself. There was also a great deal of political opposition in
the Northeast to the subway.
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:wxnq9.20716$ue4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Bill Jameson
...
> The subway under Arch St. is still intact and is used by the city as
> storage. I don't know of anyone ever having gone down into it.
...
I did manage to see a station on on the Arch street line (I always thought
of it as the Race street line). Someone led a group of us, quite
unofficially and perhaps illegally there in 1965 or 1966. This was
relatively close to 16th and Race, where I was working at the time. I'm
trying to remember much of anything about it, but I do remember a station
platform with a tiled stop name, though I can't remember the name.
Bill Jameson
Exile on Market Street
> I did manage to see a station on on the Arch street line (I always thought
> of it as the Race street line). Someone led a group of us, quite
> unofficially and perhaps illegally there in 1965 or 1966. This was
> relatively close to 16th and Race, where I was working at the time. I'm
> trying to remember much of anything about it, but I do remember a station
> platform with a tiled stop name, though I can't remember the name.
16th and Race?
Can't for the life of me imagine what this was you saw.
The segments of subway that were built in Arch and Locust Streets were
constructed in 1915, and are located near 13th Street on each. These
were part of what was to have been a loop subway operating under Broad,
Arch, 8th and Locust Streets, serving as a central collector/distributor
loop for the Broad Street (and Parkway-Roxborough) lines.
Bill Jameson
>
> Bill Jameson wrote:
>
> > I did manage to see a station on on the Arch street line (I always thought
> > of it as the Race street line). Someone led a group of us, quite
> > unofficially and perhaps illegally there in 1965 or 1966. This was
> > relatively close to 16th and Race, where I was working at the time. I'm
> > trying to remember much of anything about it, but I do remember a station
> > platform with a tiled stop name, though I can't remember the name.
>
> 16th and Race?
>
> Can't for the life of me imagine what this was you saw.
>
> The segments of subway that were built in Arch and Locust Streets were
> constructed in 1915, and are located near 13th Street on each. These
> were part of what was to have been a loop subway operating under Broad,
> Arch, 8th and Locust Streets, serving as a central collector/distributor
> loop for the Broad Street (and Parkway-Roxborough) lines.
Sandy,
Sorry to be so vague. We started out above ground at 16th & Race, walked
for awhile then went down, perhaps somewhere along the Broad Street line.
Some more walking, a couple of doors and then we were at an unused subway
station platform. No track that I remember. I do wish I could recall the
name on the tile on top of the platform back wall...
to...@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Lei Chen wrote:
>> Thanks for the info.
>>
>> I'm fairly confident on the Sears station. I managed to find a reference to
>> it on the net today. While by no means definitive, it does support the once
>> existence of the station and ties in with the extended tracks from Olney.
>
>main line at Erie, not Olney. A pair of tracks there rises to an upper
>level from the local tracks north of the station. (Ridge Spur trains
>used these tracks to short-turn during peak hours [off-peak, they turned
>at Girard] before they were extended to Fern Rock while the ex-Reading
>main was rebuilt in the early 1990s.) Given that the line was to follow
>Northeast (Roosevelt) Boulevard, it would have had to feed in around
>here -- Hunting Park Avenue has a station located directly beneath it.
The Sears Station was built concurrent with a plan to build a northeast
extension of thhe BSS in the center of the stillborn Pulaski Xpswy
along the PRR Oxford Road Branch northh of the Blvd, the Pennway Ave
route. The Xpswy was killed by NIMBY's and the Subway Extension with it.
The upper level turnback at Erie could not be used, it end behing the
Broad St Bridge abutment of the Reading Port Richmond Branch.
I believe there was to be a new connection at Hunting Park to allow the
subay to reach the Blvd alignment.
>
>> I know nothing about Eaking Oval though....:)
>
>That's a two-lane tunnel running from 23d and Spring Garden Streets to
>the east end of the Spring Garden Street bridge, just below the Art
>Museum's southern corner. One lane carries auto traffic today,
>westbound only; the other is no longer used. An apocryphal tale has it
>that a station was built for a planned Parkway-Roxborough
>subway-elevated line beneath the Art Museum as well; the line as
>proposed in 1913 would have passed beneath Eakins Oval en route to a
>29th Street elevated line. AFAIK, no such station exists.
>
The tunnel under the Art Museum front was a trolley tunnel
-bothh directions, two track with center pillars, for
Route 43, the Spring Garden street line. Having ridden it,
I do not recall any stops in thhe tunnel as that would have
required entry kiosks in front of the Art Museum.
Incidentally this tunnel crossed over the top
of the B&O tunnel from Park Jct to the river bank.
>--
m greene
<lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Exile on Market Street" <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
>news:3DA7C6BA...@pobox.upenn.edu...
>> Lei Chen wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > I am currently preparing a website on the Philly subways, focussing on:
>> > 1. Planned but never built sections
>> > 2. Built but never used / abandoned sections.
>> >
>>
>> You might want to check your facts against Michael Greene's.
They're below, in my response to Mr./Ms/Whatever(sorry for
that one) Chen's response.
>>
>> AFAIK, there was only one subway-elevated line in the city to be
>> abandoned (as opposed to never used): the elevated line over Delaware
>> Avenue to South Street, which opened as part of the original Market
>> Street subway-elevated in 1907 and closed sometime around 1932.
The date of closure was May 8, 1939. The line over Delaware
Avenue actually opened in 1908, as the last section of the original
Market Street line to open.
>>
>> And though there are two abandoned subway *stations*, AFAIK, all the
>> empty subway *tunnels* were never used, not abandoned.
>>
>> > Secondly, a small section of the once planned centre city loop was
>> > apparently constructed under Arch. I have no further detail regarding
>the
>> > section that was actually built, and any information will be most
>> > appreciated.
>>
>> There were two sections built--one in the 1300 block of Arch and one in
>> the same block of Locust. The latter was incorporated into the 1952
>> Locust Street subway.
It was three sections...possibly 4. There were two sections
on Arch Street, the one at 13th Street, and another one at 10th
Street. The sections on Locust Street were between 9th and 10th, and
another between 11th and 12th Streets. The Arch Street sections were
left alone, but the Locust Street sections had to be totally rebuilt,
since the original design envisioned cars of Market Street clearances
using the line. (For the record , the Locust and Arch Street tunnels
were intended to be standard gage, since the original plans called for
incorporation of steam RR branches into the system that would feed the
Arch and Locust Street lines.) Incidentally, when everything was done
on Locust Street, it opened on Feb, 15, 1953.
>>
>Hi Sandy,
>
>"Michael Greene" is a resource I have not yet come across. If you can
>supply me some info on him, I'd appreciate it.
Well, I'm 46, have lived in South Philly since 1988, and have
lived in Philly all of my life...oh, that stuff. (E-mail me for that.)
Well, I don't have a website, if that's what you're looking for, but I
can supply info, either on request, or, as those readers of this NG
can attest, totally unsolicited.
>
>I've not really explored the elevated lines, and don't intend to at this
>stage. My interest lies in subterranean structures that were (1) planned
>and never built (2) built but never completed or used, and (3) actually
>commissioned but then abandoned.
>
>I have quite a bit of material on the abandoned Ridge-8th Street Subway
>station at Spring Garden street and the abandoned PATCO station at Franklin
>Square, included some nice photographs. I was not really aware that the
>Locust section ever operated as the Locust Street Subway. I have a 1954 map
>that designates it as such, but was under the impression that it was only
>commissioned in the form of the Locust Street-Camden line, the successor to
>the Delaware Bridge Speed Line and the forunner of the PATCO line.
Not quite. The Locust Street Subway was originally built by
the City of Philadelphia in the early 1930's, as the first section of
a line to SW Philadelphia which would have run along Woodland Avenue,
part of which would have run as an elevated. Obviously, only the
section to 18th Street was built, and that section wasn't equipped for
use until after WWII, as part of the Bridge Line's route.
>Then, I am still interested in the Roosevelt Boulevard / Adams Street
>station.
That section was built in the 1960's as part of the 1960's
version of the NE extension of the Broad Street Subway. This was
built just east of Whitaker Avenue, by a parking lot that was built
for Sears. This lot was torn down in 1995, and was not part of the
implosion that has been covered elsewhere in this thread. Some
gratings in the sidewalk mark the site of this station, I suspect.
>
>Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated.
Please e-mail me for more info.(Just remember to delete the
"nospam" part if/when you should e-mail.)
Later
Michael T. Greene(see what one misses when you're away for 2
weeks...)
m greene
>You might want to check the histories of the major bridges,
>Ben Franklin bridge's towers were supposebly designed to have links from
>current patco to planned trolley lines, or perhaps the Market Frankford,
>Henry Ave bridge is reputed to have those odd vented box culverts underneath
>in anticipation of a Northwestern extension of some form of mass transit or
>subway...
The Ben Franklin Bridge never had a provision for stations
along the rapid transit ROW's. The anchorages did have provisions for
stops along the streetcar ROW's, though you have to look quickly to
see them. I was also on the Bridge on 7/01/01(see Sandy's previous
post in reply), and did get into the Camden anchorage, along with
others. An opening on the west side of the Philadelphia anchorage was
projected as a transfer station for the Frankford Elevated...it was at
the level that the El originally ran at in pre-I-95 days. Your other
note is correct about Henry Avenue...it was a provision for a Henry
Avenue rapid transit line, which would have been a subway SE of the
big bridge to a point between Abbottsford and Roberts Avenue, where it
would run as an elevated SE of there...the bridge over the current R-6
and the ex-Reading RR Port Richmond Branch had structural provisions
to hold an elevated line. (I once got to see the architectural
drawings for the bridge that's there as I write.)
Will discuss more in a further post...my eyelids are starting
to droop down...
Later
Michael T. Greene
Exile on Market Street
> Sandy,
>
> Sorry to be so vague. We started out above ground at 16th & Race, walked
> for awhile then went down, perhaps somewhere along the Broad Street line.
> Some more walking, a couple of doors and then we were at an unused subway
> station platform. No track that I remember. I do wish I could recall the
> name on the tile on top of the platform back wall...
Okay, here's my guess.
You may have stumbled upon the abandoned North Broad Street subway
concourse, which connected City Hall and Race-Vine stations. I don't
know when it was sealed off; its southern end now serves as transit
police headquarters, and I was able to view that part of the passenger
concourse in the mid-1980s, before the stairs leading to it from the
Municipal Services Building concourse were closed to the public. The
tile color scheme/pattern in the North Broad concourse, as in the South
Broad, is dark/light green with white triangle accents and checkerboard
designs along the top course of tile.
Which brings me to another neglected part of the subway: the color
coding scheme on the Broad Street Line (referred to in the 50th
anniversary display that remains in the waiting area of Walnut-Locust
station some 23 years after the event). The stations are done up in a
rotating set of four basic color schemes/tile patterns:
--Dark blue/light blue/white, with white triangle accents
--Maroon/cream/white, with white/maroon octagonal accents
--Brown/yellow/white, with brown/white checkerboard accents
--Dark green/light green/white, with green/white checkerboard accents
In the 1937 South Broad Extension, the color pairings were kept, but the
accents and white tile disappeared in favor of narrow stripes of the
darker color on a tile wall of the lighter color (and in the case of the
blue, the substitution of tan for the light blue).
The schemes run in sequence, from south to north: maroon, green, brown,
blue, with some discontinuties. As they actually rotate from Snyder Ave
north (the 1971 Pattison Avenue Extenstion's stations both have large
pale yellow tile blocks), the sequence is:
Snyder Ave: maroon
Tasker-Morris: green
Ellsworth-Federal: blue
Lombard-South: maroon
Walnut-Locust: green
City Hall: maroon
Then green-brown-blue-maroon for the following sets of four:
Race-Vine, Spring Garden, Fairmount, Girard
Columbia, Susquehanna-Dauphin, North Philadelphia, Allegheny
Erie, Hunting Park, Logan, Wyoming
Olney, the original terminal station, should then be green, but it's blue.
The system was supposed to help orient riders to their location.
--
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team Member webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"Universities are full of knowledge. The freshmen bring a little in, the
seniors take absolutely none away, and knowledge accumulates."
-----------Abbott Lawrence Lowell, Harvard president from 1909 to 1933--
m greene
>
>Also, the Market street subway west of 15th opened in 1907 (east in 1908)
>and presumably connected by a bridge over the schuylkill, since it took till
>1933 for the Market Frankford to tunnel under the Schuylkill. Around that
>time there was mention of someone starting a Schuylkill tunnel to take the
>Locust Street Subway under the Schuylkill- although that may be an
>anachronism or a mistaken reference to sewer interceptor construction in
>that area much later on.
>
The tunnelling under the Schuylkill River began in 1930, as
part of the construction of the current Market Street Bridge. It
began at 24th Street, and ran to 32nd Street, but stopped in 1933,
when funds ran out. There was planning for another cross-river tunnel
for the Locust Street subway at that time, but this was never built.
The work on Market Street didn't resume until 1947.
>One interesting subway tale is that one reason the northward further
>extension of the Broad Street Subway was stopped was that the city no longer
>needed the dirt and fill to build up south Philly-
>one the city filled in the swamps south of Passyunk Ave for real estate
>development and the
>Sesqui Centenial, the city cut off the supply of money to dig...
Never heard of that one. In any event, the built-up area went
down to Oregon Aveue in the pre-WWI era, and would only proceed a few
blocks further south. Part of that blunting probably had to do with
the Sesquicentennial, and the rest had to do with drainage problems.
AFA the north end, the line was built to allow for extension to the
north, but, as we know, that didn't happen.
>
>There's also the open question of what is left of all those underground coal
>supply tunnels that used to interconnect the Port Richmond docks and the
>heart of the city...
Do you have any documentation for that?
>
>Perhaps the Sears underground terminal was simply a trolley underpass?
>Much like the apocryphal Art Museum Train Station? - which is more likely a
>reference to the old Eaking Oval tolley tunnel?..
The trolley tunnel was a separate undertaking from either the
proposed subway tunnel or the B&O tunnel, which pre-dated the Art
Museum by close to 25 years. ( Before the Parkway, the area up to 25th
Street was built up area. The Parkway was the first project that
impacted the area, though the last of the buildings just SE of the Art
Museum survived until the late 1950's, when the Park Towne Place
apartments replaced the old neighborhood.) Also, the three
underground undertakings would have followed different paths. I've
never seen anything in the old trolley tunnel to note either the B&O
tunnel or the Parkway Subway. One more thing-the Art Museum station
was probably to be on the north side, so any possible looking would
have to start there.
Later
Michael T. Greene(Are you taking this down, Lei?)
Hal Schirmer
> >There's also the open question of what is left of all those underground
coal
> >supply tunnels that used to interconnect the Port Richmond docks and the
> >heart of the city...
>
> Do you have any documentation for that?
>
> >
Mostly anectdotal-
although if I recal, the PBS tours of philly undeground found an old coal
tunnel in city hall.
http://citypaper.net/articles/122498/cb.holestory.shtml
http://citypaper.net/articles/090497/article014.shtml
There's never a definite way to know what any particular tunnel was built
for, whether it is
a coal storage vault, or a full tunnel. Early colonists dug vaults through
the riverbank and appearantly a tunnel under Front Street to get to the
wharves.."[Robert Turner] was granted a reduced rental and permission to dig
vaults through the bank and under Front Street to his own lot."
Philadelphia A 300 Year History (Norton Pub. 1982) p17
I do recal that the big 1800s push for subways was triggered by a paralyzing
snowstorm in the north east that dropped several feet of snow- and paralyzed
NYC and Philly by halting the abilty to distribute coal that was needed to
keep buildings heated.
Since Philly initially got its coal via canal boat, and the canals froze
over in winter- when the
coal was most needed, it was important to have effecive coal storage, and
effective coal distribution would seem to require some off street way to get
coal in, and ash out...
The other reasoning is deductive- I vaguely recall reading about late 1800's
pneumatic mail delivery system in center city that was routed partially
through old coal distribution tunnels.
Hal Schirmer
Lei Chen
You've received quite a few replies on this, but it does intrigue me. While
Sandy is probably right in that it was just the (boring) concourse, the
possibility does always exist that a station was completed on one of the
sections built on the Arch line. Often subways are built with the stations
constructed first and then later on the tunnels are dug or bored.
From the 1914 plans for the centre city loop, the stations would have been
between 9th and 10th and Arch, and between 12th and 13th and Arch - neither
on the sections that were apparently built. However, this plan was revised
many times since then. The latest version that I have is 1916, when the
loop became more of a squiggly half moon with an arm up the Parkway. This
version had no stops on Arch and introduced the Ridge Street subway. Later
versions may have re-introduced stops on Arch.
I guess the only way to really know for sure is to go into the tunnels and
have a look (HINT to the general readership of this thread...although I
guess the City won't be too obliging).
In the meantime, I'd love to correspond with you regarding this offline, so
I'll drop an email as soon as I have more time.
Ciao
LC
"Bill Jameson" <bjam...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3DAD6409...@mail.med.upenn.edu...
Bill Jameson
> Okay, here's my guess.
>
> You may have stumbled upon the abandoned North Broad Street subway
> concourse, which connected City Hall and Race-Vine stations. I don't
lei....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
"...Sandy is probably right in that it was just the (boring) concourse, the
possibility does always exist that a station was completed on one of the
sections built on the Arch line. Often subways are built with the stations
constructed first and then later on the tunnels are dug or bored..."
The Broad Street subway concourse is a good guess, but unless it looked
pretty different from the concourse and connecting tunnels under City Hall
in the 1950s (with my Grandmother) and 1960s (on my own), my first instinct
would be to say I don't (or I didn't) think it was that. Then again there's
lots of neat stuff down there that was increasingly closed off to commuters
in the 1960's.
I will say that this one I didn't stumble on to, I was led. Bob Eaton of
the Friends Peace Committee and later of AQAG, A Quaker Action Group had
either stumbled onto what I saw or he had read about it. Bob was in 1965
where I've come to be about cities and architecture: passionately
interested. I must confess that I wasn't at the time. If the Arch Street
subway station platform is what I saw, I've remembered it incorrectly as
the Race Street subway. Until this thread, I can only remember reading one
reference about the [Arch Street] subway once before this, in the Inquirer,
1996 or 1967. I will reiterate that if it an was Arch Street subway station
platform, I also had confused east and west and remembered the location as
close to where we started out on the surface (15th & Race).
Like Mrs. Ida Doom in "Cold Comfort Farm" who 'saw something nasty in the
woodshed,' I saw something wondrous underground in Philadelphia north of
Market Street one night in 1965, and I'll be damned if I know what it
really was.
Bill Jameson
[bcc of this sent to lei....@worldnet.att.net]
Der Tschonnie
Have you had an opportunity to canvass the local historical associations
with a stakeholding position in Center City Philadelphia for your project?
There may be some knowledgeable historians who can answer your questions
directly, or, if not, to put their hands on plans describing the Arch Street
Subway tunnel and its relationship to other important structures in the
area. If I remember correctly, there are a few very, very important private
libraries operating in Philadelphia (the Library Company?) where such
historical documents may be hiding. It's my guess too that there is a
transit fan working as a librarian at the Free Library of Philadelphia's
business department. Make friends with him (or her). The resources there
are significant. Finally, wouldn't plans for the Reading Terminal
structure, especially its reconstruction as part of the CCCT AND the
Convention Center extend back as far as Arch Street and down 40 or 50 feet?
A structure that huge would have footings which would have to be negotiated
by subway engineers.
Following the coal tunnel reasoning, it's possible that the former Bell of
Pennsylvania may have used tunnel capacity to lay underground wiring (or
maybe even fiber, if you're really lucky). They, and the city water and
sewer people, are likely to be good repositories for underground plans.
Finally, what engineering company had responsibility for the Suburban
Station end of the Center CIty Commuter Tunnel? They may have findings, and
possibly some on-staff engineers, who can confirm. Certainly an engineering
company of that size has a private library where, if you ask very very
nicely (or get a faculty librarian to ask for you), you might get a chance
to have some sort of document review.
As an example, the Los Angeles Conservancy offers infrequent tours of the
downtown LA "Subway Terminal Building", which was for 30 or 40 years a
stub-end station at the end of a 1.3 mi (approx) tunnel from the streetcar
portal. The LA subway remains a historical oddity and one which cannot be
reopened because the tunnel was blocked by foundation piers for the Westin
Bonaventure Hotel. (In other words, LA had a subway-surface car system
until the late 40s/early 50s.)
As a librarian, these are the points I'd bring up with you to dig deeper in
your quest. I admire your pertenacity and continue to be interested in the
answers you are getting from the readership of phl.transportation.
Cordially,
John Marquette
Lei Chen
Thanks for all the information you have provided. It is certainly aiding in
forming a clear picture. Yours is the first reference that I have found to
a section constructed at tenth and Arch. I'll definitely email you offline
to chat further.
Ciao
LC
"m greene" <michael_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3db0e115...@netnews.voicenet.com...
Lei Chen
Thanks for providing this feedback. You mention that the Arch St subway is
still intact and used as storage. Do you have any idea which city deparment
uses it for storage? I could possible obtain further info from them. I am
curious as to the nature of the Arch street tunnel(s). How were they
accessed? do they merge with any of the existing tunnels? do they run
higher or lower than the Broad street subway?
Thanks again for the assistance.
Regards
LC
"dickwyll" <dick...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:aoii4o$p...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Lei Chen
under Race Street running along the Parkway, complete with photographs.
Something however did appear amis in the surface photographs of the Parkway,
and it was with great disappointment that I realised that the article dealt
with Cincinnati's subway, not the local one.
So far, the abandoned / uncommisioned tunnels and stations in Philly are:
- Spring garden on the Ridge Street subway
- Franklin Square on PATCO
- Arch street at 13th
- Arch street at 10th
- A possible station somewhere north of Market
- The City Branch line from 21st to 25th under Pennsylvania
- A station at Whitaker and Roosevelt (which may or may not have been
destoryed)
- A possible station may have been constructed at Rising Sun and Roosevelt,
but this is just speculation at this stage.
Destroyed Stations
- The station at Market and 23rd, although remnants of the tunnel can be
seen underneath the PECO building.
- The old Chinatown station when the CCCT was constructed (let's hope that
the Arch St tunnels didn't meet the same fate during this construction)
Great - the search continues.
Ciao
LC
"m greene" <michael_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3db22a0c...@netnews.voicenet.com...
Hal Schirmer
> - Spring garden on the Ridge Street subway
> - Franklin Square on PATCO
> - Arch street at 13th
> - Arch street at 10th
> - A possible station somewhere north of Market
> - The City Branch line from 21st to 25th under Pennsylvania
> - A station at Whitaker and Roosevelt (which may or may not have been
> destoryed)
> - A possible station may have been constructed at Rising Sun and
Roosevelt,
> but this is just speculation at this stage.
>
> Destroyed Stations
> - The station at Market and 23rd, although remnants of the tunnel can be
> seen underneath the PECO building.
> - The old Chinatown station when the CCCT was constructed (let's hope that
> the Arch St tunnels didn't meet the same fate during this construction)
>
> Great - the search continues.
>
> Ciao
> LC
You also might want to check some of the old contractors who may have plans
and files-
not only the city records, but also the company records...
Hal Schirmer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1 Some time prior to May 6, 1937, the City of Philadelphia, through the
department of city transit, requested bids for work in connection with the
completion of the substation of the South Philadelphia Subway, located at
Juniper and McKean Streets, known as contract no. 234, department of city
transit.
2. On April 29, 1937, Gordon R. Exley, director of city transit, in
accordance with the ordinance of council approved October 18, 1932
(ordinances and city solicitor's opinions, 1932, p. 191), published the
following list of qualified bidders from whom bids would be received on the
said contracts:
John Bordon and Bro., 637 N. 19th Street
Nicholas Connolly, Inc., 1404 N. 18th Street
Bugger O'Hara Company, 514 W. Champlost Street
Edw. F. Roberts, 2622 Columbia Avenue
Louis J. Sommer and Son, 2436 Brown Street.
3. On or about May 6, 1937, bids were received from three of the persons
entitled to bid on the said contract, to wit, Nicholas Connolly, Inc.,
Edward F. Roberts, and Louis J. Sommer and Son, the said bids being as
follows:
Nicholas Connolly, Inc $ 20,127.00
Edward F. Roberts 19,963.00
Louis J. Sommer and Son 20,559.10
4. S. Davis Wilson, Mayor of the City of Philadelphia, has directed Gordon
R. Exley, director of city transit, to award the contract to Nicholas
Connolly, Inc., instead of to the said Edward F. Roberts, who is the lowest
responsible bidder.
5. Prior to, at the time of and subsequent to the time of the submission of
said bids, Edward F. Roberts was an incumbent of the office of magistrate in
the City of Philadelphia.
>>>>>>
GeneJYao
<< Destroyed Stations
- The station at Market and 23rd, although remnants of the tunnel can be
seen underneath the PECO building.
- The old Chinatown station when the CCCT was constructed (let's hope that
the Arch St tunnels didn't meet the same fate during this construction)
>>
Where was the Chinatown station? Was this replaced by the present
Chinatown station on the Broad-Ridge line?
LChen
9th and Vine. The CCCC ran straight through the station, so it was
demolished and a new station built at 8th and Race, which bears the
Chinatown name.
"GeneJYao" <gene...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021021231920...@mb-ce.aol.com...
Exile on Market Street
> So far, the abandoned / uncommisioned tunnels and stations in Philly are:
> Destroyed Stations
> - The station at Market and 23rd, although remnants of the tunnel can be
> seen underneath the PECO building.
> - The old Chinatown station when the CCCT was constructed (let's hope that
> the Arch St tunnels didn't meet the same fate during this construction)
I think I'd want to double-check that Chinatown data point.
Race-Vine station on the Ridge Spur stretched from 8th and Race to 9th
and Vine along the alignment of Ridge Avenue. Present-day Chinatown
Station does the same. The CCCT has a 90-degree curve immediately E of
the E end of the platforms at Market East, which are at 10th Street.
This curve takes the tunnel from under Filbert Street at 10th to under
9th at about Race. This alignment would not have required the complete
elimination of the BSS station.
Chinatown was clearly rehabbed around that time, though, and new
entrances built.
Exile on Market Street
> Geez, over the years a lot of the downtown pedestrian concourses have
> been closed off. I guess it's not too much of a loss, since the
> concourses were dark, dank, smelly, and rarely used even in rainy weather
> in rush hour. NYC has also closed off some concourses too, for instance,
> they was a passage from Penna Sta at Seventh Avenue to Sixth Avenue.
>
> The Bulletin Almanac published a map of the concourses. Now with
> the Almanac gone, I don't know where one could find a current map of
> available passages.
SEPTA used to have wall maps of the concourse system in a couple of
places around 15th and Market. These, being as outdated as the regional
rail system maps next to them, have either been removed or covered with
newer graphics.
Going from memory, here's a rough description of the current extent of
the Center City concourse network:
Under JFK Blvd from 18th St (passage from SE corner to SW end of
Suburban Station, through Suburban Station to 15th, then past the
Municipal Services Bldg to Broad Street (sunken plaza open to above at
this point). Continuing E from there under Filbert, curving around to E
Penn Square past (now-closed) passage to City Hall Annex (now Courtyard
by Marriott hotel), then S to connect with N side Market St concourse
(this segment closed from 6 pm to 6 am).
Network of concourses connecting Suburban Station with Dilworth Plaza
and 15th/Market subway station, running under Penn Center office
complex, with an extension serving the Mellon Bank Center concourse and
sunken winter garden. Direct entrances to 1515 Market and 2 through 8
Penn Center (6 Penn Center excluded) from the concourse.
Concourse under W side 15th St, connecting with Centre Square office
building, open to above both N and S of Market St. Passageway SE/E from
here to lower level of Dilworth Plaza, which in turn is connected to the
Municipal Services Building concourse, 15th/West Plaza trolley subway
station beneath it, City Hall's NE corner entrance (open during building
hours only) and the N and S side Market St concourses.
From Dilworth Plaza, concourse continues S under onetime Broad St
alignment then E under S Penn Square to connect with the South Broad
Street concourse, which runs from South Penn Square to Spruce Street.
At Locust, a concourse extending under that street from 12th to 16th
Streets intersects the Broad Street concourse.
From South Penn Square, a concourse heads E from the South Broad
concourse, curving N under East Penn Square (Juniper Street) to connect
with the S side Market St concourse.
From Dilworth Plaza, concourses head E under the N and S sides of
Market St, serving as the main entrance to the Broad Street Subway City
Hall station (no access to S side concourse/station entrance from
Dilworth Plaza, as passageway is now part of the transfer between 15th
St and City Hall stations). Passageways continue E from City Hall
station to 11th St station, passing 13th St in between. A crossover at
the W end of 11th St station connects the two. At 11th St, there is an
entrance to the Gallery/Market East Station complex, which allows
underground passage through Market East Station to 10th St, 11th St and
12th St at Filbert, and direct access to the Pennsylvania Convention
Center. During mall hours of operation, underground passage through the
Gallery extends from this point E to 8th Street.
At 8th Street, a concourse above the PATCO platform extends from Arch to
Chestnut streets; the Market to Arch segment includes the Market Street
station on the BSS Ridge Spur. A crossover at 8th Street subway station
connects the two sections. Interior passage to 7th Street is available
through Mellon Independence Center from 8th and Market during business
hours.
> Unfortunately, the concourses could never be maintained to the extent
> that the public would feel comfortable using them.
>
> Would anyone have a list of Phila sections that have been closed?
AFAIK, only the North Broad concourse and the City Hall Annex connection
have been completely closed/abandoned. However, a number of buildings
that used to have direct entrances from the concourses, including One
South Broad (former PNB Building), the Bellevue and the PSFS Building
(now Loews Hotel), have had their concourse entrances removed or sealed.
A number of subway station passageways and concourses have been closed,
though, including the northerly Germantown Avenue entrances to Erie
station, the Glenwood Avenue entrance to North Philadelphia subway
station, the passageway connecting 30th Street railroad and subway
stations and the mezzanine concourses above Fairmount (Ridge Spur) and
North Philadelphia stations.
> But I don't think the colors were of too much help. At island
> platform stations, I don't recall tile on the track level, one had
> to go upstairs to see the tile which meant of course getting off the
> train. In any event, back in the days of incandescent platform
> lighting, the lighting was a dull yellow color and quite dim, making
> it very hard to distinquish tile colors from a train. Indeed, I
> never realized the color tile designs were there until after
> flourescent lighting was installed, and even then only after high
> intensity lighting was put in.
I first visited Philadelphia in 1970, and went down into the Broad
Street Subway concourse from the (then) Fidelity Bank entrances. At
that time, the fluorescent lighting was in the process of being
installed in the South Broad concourse, and you could see the difference
just past the entrances to Walnut-Locust station. You could make out
the station name in the tilework in the dim incandescent light.
> Years ago they put in backlit station name signs. Then were taken
> out, except for one or two at Allegheny. Are they still there at
> Allegheny? Anyone know why they were left when others removed?
The signs at Allegheny were removed when that station got remodeled in
the mid-1980s. (Which leads me to a tangent: Why have the most
attractive features of these renovations -- the dropped ceilings and
recessed fluorescent lighting -- been removed after such a short time?)
The old backlit signs remain, but are no longer operating, at Fairmount
station, which has received *no* significant improvements aside from
fluorescent lighting and up-to-date turnstiles since its opening in
1927. (Some of the original wooden exit turnstiles are still in place,
for instance.)
Lei Chen
respect his privacy and not disclose his identity / email. However, he has
provided me with permission to publish this on the NG - perhaps someone can
add something of interest to this.
Regards
LC
Extract Start:
Lei -
I am responding to your inquiry off-list by quoting from another
correspondent who worked as a transit police officer during the late
1950s and personally toured most of Philly subterranea on foot,
including the Arch Street Subway and the "sub-rooms" (??) of the Locust
Street Subway. I once accompanied him on walks through the Broad Street
concourse and visited the police sub-station (an unintentional pun, I
believe) there with him (I was about eight years old), but never saw
most of the places referred to in the quotation below. Interestingly, I
do recall that once in conversation he said that one could enter the
Arch Street subway tunnel directly from a door or doors along the side
of the northern reaches of the Broad Street concourse, and I wonder
whether one still can.
- - begin quote
"As to the "ARCH ST. SUBWAY", it seems it was planned when they were
putting in the MARKET ST. SUBWAY. As you may know, the Market St. Line
was put in from West Philly by another Co. and the "locals"
(Subway-Surface) & the actual Subway both stopped at 15th St. Then the
"local" looped down and under the Frankford-Ferries Subway to the
Juniper St. Sta. while the SUBWAY looped around City Hall JUST under the
Frank.-Ferries and then stopped at 15th St. Westbound. You know the
Subways and Subway-Surface couldn't inter-connect, as the Subway was of
Standard Gauge and the sub-surf. was "Phila. City Council" Guage.
"Now, Phila. & Western inter-urban (incl. Norristown [3rd Rail]), o you
don't get it mixed up with the other "RED ARROW" lines, was preparing to
run on the NEW Market St. Line and even bought a large batch of cars for
Platform or Ground boarding. They were also, I am told, looking to
future competetion, so either they or the Co. which built the Market St.
line started on the Parallel ARCH STREET Line. My own personal
inspection of this (on foot, naturally) back in '58-'59 was that it
started at about 16th & the Parkway and continued directly under Arch to
about 10th St. There were indications that 10th, 13th & 16th Sts., would
have Stations, but this is my guess in looking over the construction.
The only thing operating in this "tube" were pumps to keep it from
flooding. In following the construction of the Suburban Sta. to Reading
Sta. inner-connect, they did not waste too much of this already dug out
hole-in-the-ground, but they had to make it MUCH WIDER.! ......... I
had, around the same time, walked the Locust St. Subway and many
sub-rooms (some as large as Ballrooms), but they beat me to it on that
one which, in spite of everything, is also Standard Gauge."
- - end quote
The ellipsis is in the original text. Some of the references to transit
company history are, I believe, slightly garbled. You're welcome to
quote this (all but my e-mail address) in the news group if you wish.
Hope this is helpful.
Extract End
Lei Chen
The possibility of a station at 23rd and Market is so far based on this
extract from one of Sandy's earlier postings (12 Oct 2002):
"The original Market Street subway tunnel portal was at 24th, with a station
at 23d just inside the portal. This met a city requirement that the
original Market Street rapid-transit line operate underground between the
rivers."
I haven't found any evidence of this on old maps as yet, so perhaps this is
the same as the trolley stop at 24th. Sandy, perhaps you could shed more
light on this?
2) Old / New Chinatown Station:
I've come across articles of the destruction of the old station at 9th and
Vine on numerous sources. The following extract is from a an easy to find
internet reference (www.pennways.com/Commuter_Tunnel.html), a discussion on
the construction of the CCCC by Scott M. Kozel. Mr Kozel's document is
largely an interesting narrative of information contained in "The Tunnel
that Transformed Philadelphia", Civil Engineering / ASCE Magazine, July
1985.
"Commuter Rail Tunnel construction very much disrupted Chinatown, under
which the subway curves north. The city and project engineers worked closely
with local residents and business owners to solve business disruption,
noise, dust, parking and traffic flow problems. In addition, the 9th and
Vine Street station of the Broad Street Spur/Ridge Avenue Subway lay
directly in the path of the tunnel and had to be demolished. A replacement
station was built near 8th and Race Streets as that line's Chinatown stop.
The lowest point of the CCCC is under this station, about twenty feet below
sea level. The tunnel then passes under the Vine Street Expressway near this
spot."
Of course, "demolished" could be interpreted in different ways. Perhaps
only the platforms were demolished and the upper left maintained. Or
perhaps the entire station was demolished. One thing though, the current
Chinatown station is visibly newer than the other stations on the Ridge
Street Subway. Incidentally, a section of the Subway-Surface line was also
moved and the present 15th Street trolley stop constructed, during building
of the CCCC.
All the old maps that I have of the area (1944, 53, 56 and 62) indicate that
the old station was called the Vine Station and was located just about
midway between 8th and 9th on Ridge, right after the junction with the 8th
Street Subway and the Bridge Line - as Sandy mentioned in a prior post.
Unfortunately, SEPTA's new surface maps do not show the station locations of
the Spur - kind of hints at what they'd like to do with the Spur - so it
makes it difficult to overlay.
While on the subject of maps, I have found that maps of the CCCC are equally
ambiguous. Some maps indicate the CCCC running squarely under JFK, others
indicate it running nearly under Arch. The truth is somewhere in between,
and can probably only be told from actual construction drawings, as a
previous poster advised.
Matthew Mitchell
lwi...@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote:
>The Bulletin Almanac published a map of the concourses. Now with
>the Almanac gone, I don't know where one could find a current map of
>available passages.
In the concourse itself!
At a number of locations, there are pretty good maps of the network.
dickwyll
Schuylkill on its own bridge, hitting Market St. on the west side of the
river.
"lwin" <lwi...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:72Jt9.1210$vZ6.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
> > Yes. The name of the old station was actually the Vine Street station,
near
> > 9th and Vine. The CCCC ran straight through the station, so it was
> > demolished and a new station built at 8th and Race, which bears the
> > Chinatown name.
>
>
> That doesn't sound right. Something that major would have made
> the news during the construction of the tunnel, and nothing was
> said.
>
> Also, there was mention of an abandoned "23rd St" station. I don't
> think there ever was such a thing. The subway surface cars had a
> 24th St stop, but that was above crowd on the approach to the Mkt
> St bridge.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > "GeneJYao" <gene...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20021021231920...@mb-ce.aol.com...
> > > lei....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > >
> > > << Destroyed Stations
> > > - The station at Market and 23rd, although remnants of the tunnel can
be
> > > seen underneath the PECO building.
> > > - The old Chinatown station when the CCCT was constructed (let's hope
that
> > > the Arch St tunnels didn't meet the same fate during this
construction)
> > > >>
> > >
dickwyll
scan of the concourses.
"lwin" <lwi...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:GVIt9.1208$vZ6.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
> > You may have stumbled upon the abandoned North Broad Street subway
> > concourse, which connected City Hall and Race-Vine stations. I don't
> > know when it was sealed off; its southern end now serves as transit
> > police headquarters, and I was able to view that part of the passenger
> > concourse in the mid-1980s, before the stairs leading to it from the
> > Municipal Services Building concourse were closed to the public.
>
> Geez, over the years a lot of the downtown pedestrian concourses have
> been closed off. I guess it's not too much of a loss, since the
> concourses were dark, dank, smelly, and rarely used even in rainy weather
> in rush hour. NYC has also closed off some concourses too, for instance,
> they was a passage from Penna Sta at Seventh Avenue to Sixth Avenue.
>
> The Bulletin Almanac published a map of the concourses. Now with
> the Almanac gone, I don't know where one could find a current map of
> available passages.
>
> Unfortunately, the concourses could never be maintained to the extent
> that the public would feel comfortable using them.
>
> Would anyone have a list of Phila sections that have been closed?
>
>
> > The system was supposed to help orient riders to their location.
>
> This was a good idea, especially when many city residents were
> immigrants, often illiterate, back when the subway was built. NYC
> subways also used color coded tile to identify stations.
>
> But I don't think the colors were of too much help. At island
> platform stations, I don't recall tile on the track level, one had
> to go upstairs to see the tile which meant of course getting off the
> train. In any event, back in the days of incandescent platform
> lighting, the lighting was a dull yellow color and quite dim, making
> it very hard to distinquish tile colors from a train. Indeed, I
> never realized the color tile designs were there until after
> flourescent lighting was installed, and even then only after high
> intensity lighting was put in. I'm told my grandmother knew her
> station by counting them from where she got on.
>
> The NYC IND system had color codes too, but apparently it was so
> complex no one understood it.
Matthew Mitchell
Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>The signs at Allegheny were removed when that station got remodeled in
>the mid-1980s. (Which leads me to a tangent: Why have the most
>attractive features of these renovations -- the dropped ceilings and
>recessed fluorescent lighting -- been removed after such a short time?)
I imagine they were pretty effective dirt traps, and IIRC were also targets
for vandals. Some of them got pretty beat up around the edges. Don't
know if they worsened or reduced noise.
dickwyll
Chestnut St. through W. Philly. I would assume it would have gone under
Chestnut in CC as well.
AFAIK, the Arch St. tunnel was part of a distribution loop for the Broad St.
line. It is true that the Phila Rapid Transit Company ended the 4 tracks
under Market at Juniper St. This was done, as I understand it, for reasons
of economy. The main business area was to the east of City Hall and
underground were massive amounts of conduits, electric, telephone and
telegraph lines. The cost of building 4 tracks would have been enormous.
I'm sure there were also political considerations as a private company would
have had Market St. torn up for even longer than it did.
Now, this created the problem that many, many people were continuing east of
City Hall. When the Broad St. Line was being planned, the business center
was still overwhelmingly to the east of City Hall. The concern was that
passengers would get off the Broad St. Line at City Hall and transfer to
already intensely crowded Market St. trains. Hence the loop idea.
In the same 1912 plan, there was still consideration being given to the
Pennsylvania RR building a tunnel under Broad St. to bring trains off the
New York Connecting at North Philadelphia and into Broad St. Station.
PS I remember back in the 50's, the Ridge Ave Line was still very heavily
used. Before express tracks went into operation in 1959, all passengers
changed at Girard Ave. and I believe they used 6 car trains during rush
hour.
I'm not sure how the Arch St. tunnel fit in with the proposed Parkway line,
although from the material I've seen, including the city's master transit
plan from 1912, the line would leave from a loop at City Hall.
"Lei Chen" <lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:BRUt9.22172$Mb3.8...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
m greene
<lei....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>For info - I received the following email. The gentleman did request that I
>respect his privacy and not disclose his identity / email. However, he has
>provided me with permission to publish this on the NG - perhaps someone can
>add something of interest to this.
>
I received the same message. Will add my comments in the
appropriate places as in my reply to this person(though they're
slightly altered for this forum)...
>
>Extract Start:
>
>Lei -
>
>I am responding to your inquiry off-list by quoting from another
>correspondent who worked as a transit police officer during the late
>1950s and personally toured most of Philly subterranea on foot,
>including the Arch Street Subway and the "sub-rooms" (??) of the Locust
>Street Subway. I once accompanied him on walks through the Broad Street
>concourse and visited the police sub-station (an unintentional pun, I
>believe) there with him (I was about eight years old), but never saw
>most of the places referred to in the quotation below. Interestingly, I
>do recall that once in conversation he said that one could enter the
>Arch Street subway tunnel directly from a door or doors along the side
>of the northern reaches of the Broad Street concourse, and I wonder
>whether one still can.
The concourse has been closed, though it hasn't been
physically obliterated, so it's theoretically possible for your
father's observations to be accurate. The location is now either the
HQ of the Phila. PD's Transit Police Unit, or it's a station for the
SEPTA Police Department...I'm not sure which it is...?
>
> - - begin quote
>"As to the "ARCH ST. SUBWAY", it seems it was planned when they were
>putting in the MARKET ST. SUBWAY. As you may know, the Market St. Line
>was put in from West Philly by another Co. and the "locals"
>(Subway-Surface) & the actual Subway both stopped at 15th St. Then the
>"local" looped down and under the Frankford-Ferries Subway to the
>Juniper St. Sta. while the SUBWAY looped around City Hall JUST under the
>Frank.-Ferries and then stopped at 15th St. Westbound. You know the
>Subways and Subway-Surface couldn't inter-connect, as the Subway was of
>Standard Gauge and the sub-surf. was "Phila. City Council" Guage.
Part of the story is accurate, in that the subway surface
lines were intended originally to run in a loop under Broad, Walnut,
8th, Arch, and Broad Street, returning to the line at Filbert.
However, this was abandoned, due to the cost, which was borne by the
PRT. It would have been interesting how that might have worked, since
part the franchise that allowed construction of the Market Street
Subway also envisioned a Broad Street Subway, running the length of
Broad Street, and, incidentally, a 2-track tunnel thoughout, as
opposed to later thoughts of it as a 4-track line. Two other addenda
here:
1.: As part of the 1907 agreement with the City of
Philadelphia, one clause in the Agreement called for the PRT to give
up its franchise for a Broad Street Subway, though interestingly, it
was given first dibs on any operation of such a line built by others,
including private operators, two of whom made proposals in 1907 and
1909, respectively-the second one first broached the idea of a 4-track
subway.
2: Both trolley and subway were the same gage, presumably due
to the initial use of the subway tunnel to 15th Street by trolleys
from Dec. 18, 1905 on. Also, there's a point coming up below...:
>"Now, Phila. & Western inter-urban (incl. Norristown [3rd Rail]), o you
>don't get it mixed up with the other "RED ARROW" lines, was preparing to
>run on the NEW Market St. Line and even bought a large batch of cars for
>Platform or Ground boarding. They were also, I am told, looking to
>future competetion, so either they or the Co. which built the Market St.
>line started on the Parallel ARCH STREET Line.
Your father had his lines switched. The lines that became the
trolley lines had cars built with train doors and traps, to allow for
both street or low-platform loading, and to allow the cars to run on
the Market Street line, pending an agreement. That might be another
reason for the use of trolley gage for the Market-Frankford line. AFA
the Market Street competition, the Philadelphia and Western, which was
built as a standard gage line, due to its original incorporation as a
steam railroad, proposed an elevated and subway line, which would have
run along Ludlow Street in West Philadelphia, and a subway along
Cheatnut Street, possibly tunnelling under the Delaware to a
connection with the Atlantic City Railroad, a Reading subsidiary.
However, this may have been a straw dog, and ultimately resulted in
the P&W getting a place in the 69th Street terminal.
>My own personal
>inspection of this (on foot, naturally) back in '58-'59 was that it
>started at about 16th & the Parkway and continued directly under Arch to
>about 10th St. There were indications that 10th, 13th & 16th Sts., would
>have Stations, but this is my guess in looking over the construction.
>The only thing operating in this "tube" were pumps to keep it from
>flooding. In following the construction of the Suburban Sta. to Reading
>Sta. inner-connect, they did not waste too much of this already dug out
>hole-in-the-ground, but they had to make it MUCH WIDER.! ......... I
>had, around the same time, walked the Locust St. Subway and many
>sub-rooms (some as large as Ballrooms), but they beat me to it on that
>one which, in spite of everything, is also Standard Gauge."
> - - end quote
As I've mentioned in previous posts, the Arch Street line
had two sections built. However, the line would have only run as far
as Broad Street. A number of later proposals did call for lines on
Arch Street, and the current BSS tunnel at Arch Street shows
provisions for such lines in the tunnel roof. BTW, there's a reason
why the current RRD tunnel runs OVER the BSS, as opposed to under
it-another proposal called for a subway tunnel under Filbert street,
which was to run OVER the BSS, and the structure of the BSS tunnel of
the 1920's made provision for it.
>
>The ellipsis is in the original text. Some of the references to transit
>company history are, I believe, slightly garbled. You're welcome to
>quote this (all but my e-mail address) in the news group if you wish.
>
I hope I've kept my part of the bargain...
Later
Michael T. Greene
Matthew Mitchell
lwi...@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote:
>A few years ago, some SEPTA plan proposed extending the Subway
>under the Delaware to National Park NJ opposite the Navy Yard.
>Who knows, that might happen some day. I am not holding my breath.
I'm not either. For one thing, that subway extension was part of a 1991 or
so "Vision of the Future" slapped together as one prominent insider
observed: "on a cocktail napkin" to address critics in the legislature who
were unwilling to hand out buckets of money because SEPTA had no long range
plan.
>One big factor in the city's subway actual construction was the
>electrification of the commuter rail lines. The TWO lines to
>Chestnut Hill eliminated much of the need for a Germantown Ave
>subway. The Norristown line eliminated some of the need for a
>Henry Ave line. The Jenkintown trunk eliminated some of the need
>to extend the subway northward. If the commuter railroad lines did
>not exist, it is possible subway lines would have been built to those
>places instead.
True that they certainly took potential market share away, but it's also
worth remembering that the subways were a city asset/project, and the
railroads were private (perceived of as robber barons, even if it was
widows and orphans owning stock). Policy for decades favored the subway
over the railroads.
freetheland...@gmail.com
On Friday, October 11, 2002 at 6:11:48 PM UTC-4, Lei Chen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am currently preparing a website on the Philly subways, focussing on:
> 1. Planned but never built sections
> 2. Built but never used / abandoned sections.
>
> in my research.
>
> Firstly, a large subway station was apparently built at Roosevelt Boulevard
> underneath the Sears building in the 60's. It was never used as the Broad
> Street extension remained unbuilt. The station is allegedly gone now. Does
> anyone have more details on this and or photographs of the station?
> (copyright will be respected).
> Secondly, a small section of the once planned centre city loop was
> apparently constructed under Arch. I have no further detail regarding the
> section that was actually built, and any information will be most
> appreciated.
>
> LC
Hi Lei Chen
Are you still working on this? Sounds very interesting and now i am managing a public art project looking at Mass Transit in Philadelphia and hoping to connect with folks who are immersed in the conversation.
jimboylan
jimboylan
Around 1918, Locust St. Subway was built West some distance from 8th St. as if it was going to run East of 8th St. In 1930, some of this had to be removed to build the turn into 8th St.
Part of a side platform 13th & Arch Sts. station and about 125 feet of double track tunnel at 10th & Arch Sts. without a station were also built around 1918.
The Vine St. station, which was really under new Ridge Ave. North of Vine St. was replaced by the Chinatown Station in about the same location.
Sometime after Market St. Subway was built, a trolley station was opened outside the 23rd St. portal at 24th St., partly over the B & O railroad tracks.
The West Philadelphia extension of the Market St. Subway was started about 1930 between 24th and 32nd Sts., but any more than that halted until 1947 due to the Depression.
The Parkway - Henry Ave. Subway was supposed to use 29th St. for part of its route.
Some of the plans for a Darby Line Subway or El along Woodland Ave. had it going under the Schuylkill River near Sansom St. as an extension of a Camden - 5th St. - Locust St. subway via 42nd & Chestnut Sts. There were many other variations. That version had the 8th St. subway from either Arch St. or Ridge Ave. using Walnut St. to return to Broad St. While most plans had Arch and Locust Sts. as part of the Broad St. Subway, around 1903 they were to be part of the Market St. Subway, unless the Philadelphia & Western Rwy. with its competing elevated ideas got possession of them.
There were many versions of these plans. Traces can still be seen of provisions for branches of the Broad St. Subway under Passyunk Ave. and farther up Broad St.
The Northbound ramp North of Erie Ave. station in one plan was to get Northbound local trains over Northbound trains for the branch. Southbound trains from the branch would go under all of the other tracks. The branch would go under Hunting Park to 9th St. & Roosevelt Blvd.
