PA 422 Question

[Matthew Russotto]

In article <ak295i$vnc$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Ghetto Stephanie <Stepha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi, on PA 422 westbound, after the Trooper exit, the road curves suddenly
>southwest for a few miles, then all of a sudden curves suddenly north east
>for a few miles, before getting to the Oaks exit. why is this? The shortest
>distance between two points being a straight line, would it not have made
>more sense to build more straight? I could see no river on my map
>interfering with anything.

There's a legend that the owner of one of the properties on the curve
was holding out for more money in the eminent domain proceedings, so
PennDOT decided to just go around him.

Seems to me, though, that the highway follows the old railroad right of
way. Though that simply pushes the problem back one stop: Why would the
railroad curve like that?

--
Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
=====
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[Matthew Mitchell]

In article <ak295i$vnc$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
"Ghetto Stephanie" <sjwi...@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:

>Hi, on PA 422 westbound, after the Trooper exit, the road curves suddenly
>southwest for a few miles, then all of a sudden curves suddenly north east
>for a few miles, before getting to the Oaks exit. why is this?

I think you are talking about the St. Gabe's curve. (St. Gabriel's Hall,
otherwise known as the Philadelphia Protectorate for Boys, or something
like that. It's a reform school run by the Roman Catholic church, if I
understand correctly.

First of all, someone may have determined it wouldn't be a good idea to run
the highway right through St. Gabriel's; and second (someone with a topo
please check this) I seem to recall it's on a hill, so it was decided to go
around rather than over the hill.

[Peter Angelides]

> There's a legend that the owner of one of the properties on the curve
> was holding out for more money in the eminent domain proceedings, so
> PennDOT decided to just go around him.

When eminent domain is exercised to take a property, that amount of money is
not usually the determining factor. Once a property is condemned, the state
(city/authority, etc) can take posession, and any dispute about the amount
is settled in court. The project can proceed BEFORE the amount of
compensation is settled. This is to prevent one land owner from holding a
project hostage.

Of course, a private developer has no such privileges, unless he can
convince a government to use eminent domain on his behalf.

[to...@ufo.ee.vill.edu]

In article <F3D99.154110$m91.6...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,

Peter Angelides <pe...@angelides.net> wrote:
>
>> There's a legend that the owner of one of the properties on the curve
>> was holding out for more money in the eminent domain proceedings, so
>> PennDOT decided to just go around him.
>

Yes, Peter Camiel, RIP, was the owner of "Fatlands" the historic
mansion and farm on Pawling Road. The location of the highway
was a matter of historical preservation. The mansion and farm are
now preserved in a public trust.

Peter was amember of the PA Turnpike Commission.

[Hal Schirmer]

Good story, but I don't think all points are correct.

The curve seems to be a way to avoid running Route 422 right through the
center of the
Audabon (Namesake of Audabon Society) homestead,

To avoid Audabon, you have to choose going left or right. Right takes you
deeper into residential areas, and puts you off track for a proposed spur
connector from Route 422 to Phoenixville.
(That's what the big seperation of the lanes north of Oaks is for space for
an unbuilt interchange.)

Going hard right puts you to far east and north, which would either
interfere with the proposed dam at L:ake Evansburg (never built and now
Evansburg State Park) or require a bridge across skippack creek, or require
the state go through the Moyer Landfill superfund site.

Avoiding Audabon to the left and you run into St Gabe's- another bad idea.

So 422 went as far left as it could, which meant it goes through Valley
Forge National Park.
The current route takes 422 along an area that the Army Corps had used in
the 1960's for 'desilting basins' - shallow ponds used to remove coal silt
from the Schuylkill to clean it up. Thus, the land was already in
government hands, and had already been disburbed. The route laid out for
422 DOES follow the line of the hill... That seems to be a result of having
to build 422 through a (albeit disturbed) portion of Valley Forge National
Park... it's generally frowned upon to do lots of earthmoving in an
important archeologic area, so the 422 route in the park is really flat, to
minimize the amount of earth disturbance by cut and fill.

Finally, I don't think Fatlands was ever really at risk, The route of 422
follows seems designed to be lowest cost... Going through fatlands would
mena having to cross over the RR againt, (and then cross back) That would
require building 2 more sets of bridges- quite expensive....
The Pennsyl RR was still running at that time, so 422 avoids crossing it
(the Pennsy Right of way is now part of a bike trail from Philly to Oakes.)
The other RR in the area, the Perkiomen Railroad, was unused by the time 422
was built, so 422 runs right over it, it was roughly where the theater is
now...

Hal Schirmer

<to...@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote in message news:ak6uub$2...@ufo.ee.vill.edu...

[pepper...@juno.com]

On Thursday, August 22, 2002 at 11:17:14 AM UTC-4, Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article <ak295i$vnc$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> Ghetto Stephanie <Stepha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi, on PA 422 westbound, after the Trooper exit, the road curves suddenly
> >southwest for a few miles, then all of a sudden curves suddenly north east
> >for a few miles, before getting to the Oaks exit. why is this? The shortest
> >distance between two points being a straight line, would it not have made
> >more sense to build more straight? I could see no river on my map
> >interfering with anything.
>
> There's a legend that the owner of one of the properties on the curve
> was holding out for more money in the eminent domain proceedings, so
> PennDOT decided to just go around him.
>
> Seems to me, though, that the highway follows the old railroad right of
> way. Though that simply pushes the problem back one stop: Why would the
> railroad curve like that?
>
> --
> Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
> =====

Actually, everybody is at least a little correct in their responses here. Politics were involved. You need to remember that there are official reasons for something happening; private reasons for something happening; and practical reasons for something happening. These all intersected here. This proposed section of the route 422 expressway first appeared on maps as a dotted line from the Betzwood bridge to the Pottstown bypass labeled the Schuylkill expressway extension.That dotted line did indeed show a direct line between points instead of the now existing loop.I don't remember when Pete Camiel moved into Fatland, but he seems not to have noticed the unopened highway until upper section from Oaks was already within sight of Fatland. Some work was also in progress from the Betzwood bridge end.While Pete Camiel had much political power, re-routing a highway already laid down probably was politically unfeasible. I don't remember when Fatland was granted historical status, but this wasn't an issue until the advancing highway was observed. I don't think the highway could seen from the house; and I don't think the direct route encroached on the property. The practical compromise - - leave the existing highway in place and build the loop to avoid Fatland. The loop doesn't meet the design speed of the rest of the highway and accidents soon ensued. The loop began to be referred to as the Pete Camiel curve. You can imagine how uncomfortable that unofficial name made many people feel. You can see part of St. Gabe's from the highway - - voila traffic reports start calling it the St. Gabe's curve. As to the rail lines in the area, its the rail lines doing the curving to stay more level, not really the highway. In fact, there were two separate lines involved there - - the ex- Reading Perkiomen branch and the ex-Pennsylvania Schuylkyll division.As commuter service was being proposed for the Perkiomen Branch to East Greenville, the railroad was planning to abandon what would be needed to reach Philadelphia, (and did). If some of you notice the spelling of that nearby river, there are actually two spellings - - one upstream, and another downstream. I don't know where that changes.
Scott Blake