The offensiveness of SEPTA
Karen Byrd
a front page article in the Inquirer about how SEPTA wants the subway
stations to shine between City Hall and Pattison Ave. Why? Because
Republicans are coming to town next year.
Why don't the cretins at SEPTA stop screwing the people who actually
pay for the system? Namely us.
Sure they say they have had plans to do this for for a long time. But the
*patrons* were not the "catlyst" or "accelerator" of this project as a
spokesperson put it. It was the Republican Convention when it remains to
be seen whether very many Reps. will *even* ride the subway.
One could argue, "Well... at least they will do something." But that's
not the point. The point is the people who pay for the system are not incentive
enough to get SEPTA's ass in gear. The incentive is coming from someone
from East Bumfuck, Kansas going to the Rep. Convention who may or may
not ride the subway. The incentive is to spruce it up for people who
don't live here and not make the same effort for the people who depend on
SEPTA day and after day. It's what SEPTA does: we have a captive audience
so
we don't care about them.
--
Karen Byrd
Tony Smolar
>enough to get SEPTA's ass in gear. The incentive is coming from someone
>from East Bumfuck, Kansas going to the Rep. Convention who may or may
>not ride the subway. The incentive is to spruce it up for people who
>don't live here and not make the same effort for the people who depend on
>SEPTA day and after day. It's what SEPTA does: we have a captive audience
>so
>we don't care about them.
I don't think this is isolated to SEPTA. A political convention brings a
lot of money to a city, and gives the city a lot of media exposure. You
want to make a good impression so you can hopefully bring them back for
another convention.
You would see the same in any city. Is SEPTA actually paying for this out
of pocket?
Big D
I definitely agree with Tony's point that you would see these "sprucing up"
efforts anywhere else, but it still doesn't make it right.
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Chris Wallgren
Conventioneers in Chicago four years ago... the roads to Midway Airport,
the roads to the United Center. IF people ride SEPTA, we want them to
remember Philly for good things, not shit. If they see all sorts of
run down things, will they have a favorable overall impression? Most
likely not.
Sure, it's a shitty thing to do, but that's life. Try to find a city that
wouldn't try to pull the wool over the eyes of the visitors... Anyhow, it's not
like they're banning people from riding the subway or something like that...
yet. :-)
Chris
--
Christopher Wallgren
University of Pennsylvania
"You're A Long Way From Home, YuppieBoy"
lwin
> a front page article in the Inquirer about how SEPTA wants the subway
> stations to shine between City Hall and Pattison Ave. Why? Because
> Republicans are coming to town next year.
>
> Why don't the cretins at SEPTA stop screwing the people who actually
> pay for the system? Namely us.
Good points.
And true...I really doubt the Republicans will be riding the Broad
Street Subway. They'll probably use taxis or specially chartered buses.
>
> Sure they say they have had plans to do this for for a long time. But the
> *patrons* were not the "catlyst" or "accelerator" of this project as a
> spokesperson put it. It was the Republican Convention when it remains to
> be seen whether very many Reps. will *even* ride the subway.
>
> One could argue, "Well... at least they will do something." But that's
> not the point. The point is the people who pay for the system are not incentive
> enough to get SEPTA's ass in gear. The incentive is coming from someone
> from East Bumfuck, Kansas going to the Rep. Convention who may or may
> not ride the subway. The incentive is to spruce it up for people who
> don't live here and not make the same effort for the people who depend on
> SEPTA day and after day. It's what SEPTA does: we have a captive audience
> so
> we don't care about them.
>
> --
> Karen Byrd
David McLoughlin
> I really doubt the Republicans will be riding the Broad
> Street Subway. They'll probably use taxis or specially chartered buses.
Taxis??? Buses????
Limousines, don't you mean?
David McLoughlin
Auckland New Zealand
Karen Byrd
> On 19 Apr 1999 12:17:52 GMT, Karen Byrd <by...@mscf.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >enough to get SEPTA's ass in gear. The incentive is coming from someone
> >from East Bumfuck, Kansas going to the Rep. Convention who may or may
> >not ride the subway. The incentive is to spruce it up for people who
> >don't live here and not make the same effort for the people who depend on
> >SEPTA day and after day. It's what SEPTA does: we have a captive audience
> >so
> >we don't care about them.
>
> I don't think this is isolated to SEPTA. A political convention brings a
> lot of money to a city, and gives the city a lot of media exposure. You
> want to make a good impression so you can hopefully bring them back for
> another convention.
>
> You would see the same in any city. Is SEPTA actually paying for this out
> of pocket?
Whether it's directly or indirectly it doesn't matter. The point is there's
little incentive to do any of these things for the PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE!
It's all for media exposure as you say. I'm not against showing the city
ina good light but there should be some bloody regard for the people who
have invested their lives in the Phila. area by virtue of living here.
--
Karen Byrd
Friend
>I definitely agree with Tony's point that you would see these "sprucing up"
>efforts anywhere else, but it still doesn't make it right.
True, but its just good business sense. The idea is to make things look
good for visitors so they receive a positive impression of the city. This
helps make some people who visit the city want to return to explore more
than they can during their convention. More visitors means more jobs and
tax dollars which benefits us all.
Exile on Market Street
by...@mscf.med.upenn.edu (Karen Byrd) wrote:
> Whether it's directly or indirectly it doesn't matter. The point is there's
> little incentive to do any of these things for the PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE!
> It's all for media exposure as you say. I'm not against showing the city
> ina good light but there should be some bloody regard for the people who
> have invested their lives in the Phila. area by virtue of living here.
Not that I disagree with you all that much, but:
--Most *individuals* I know tend to clean their houses more thoroughly when
"company's coming" than they do for family. This is the same dynamic writ
large.
--The "people who live here" tend to do a piss-poor job of picking up after
themselves, so can you really blame the people who get paid to do this if
they're less than enthusiastic about keeping things clean for such an
unappreciative bunch?
--
Sandy Smith, University Relations / 215.898.1423 / smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Associate Editor, _Pennsylvania Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team -- Web Editor webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"I wouldn't want to join any club that would have me for a member."
------------------------------------------------------------Groucho Marx--
Karen Byrd
<cog...@ux1.cyberenet.net> wrote:
What about creating a positive impression on the people who are already
here? The people who live here. The people who work here. The people
who have really invested time and energy in the Phila area. I see the
sense of attracting tourists dollars; it's obviously important too. But
why should
some yokel from, say, Oregon reap benefits that my tax dollars and residency
don't?
Going back to SEPTA why don't they understand that cleaning up the City Hall
Broad St Subway station for real patrons matters? Why don't they
understand that REAL
Philadelphians(I include all people living in the area as "Philadelphians")
should matter enough to clean the station. The station should have been spruced
up AGES ago! And if it weren't for the Rep. Convention would SEPTA be doing
anything to that station any time soon? I doubt it. The attitude seems to be,
"It's good enough for regular riders who, because some can't afford other means,
will take pub. trans. anyway. So we really don't care how this stuff looks."
Why isn't it good business sense to pay attention to regular riders
and *their* comfort?
--
Karen Byrd
Karen Byrd
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <byrd-20049...@mscfadm6.med.upenn.edu>,
> by...@mscf.med.upenn.edu (Karen Byrd) wrote:
> > Whether it's directly or indirectly it doesn't matter. The point is there's
> > little incentive to do any of these things for the PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE!
> > It's all for media exposure as you say. I'm not against showing the city
> > ina good light but there should be some bloody regard for the people who
> > have invested their lives in the Phila. area by virtue of living here.
>
> Not that I disagree with you all that much, but:
>
> --Most *individuals* I know tend to clean their houses more thoroughly when
> "company's coming" than they do for family. This is the same dynamic writ
> large.
> --The "people who live here" tend to do a piss-poor job of picking up after
> themselves, so can you really blame the people who get paid to do this if
> they're less than enthusiastic about keeping things clean for such an
> unappreciative bunch?
Sandy, indicate how any riders are responsible for the ground in grim,
peeling paint and dungeon-like lighting that
exists at City Hall Station? Or the water stains on the walls on the BSS's
Spring
Garden Station? And if SEPTA enforced their own rules about fooding-
eating and smoking WHICH THEY DON'T it would alter some of what you mentioned
above. I blame most it on SEPTA.
--
Karen Byrd
Chris Wallgren
[snip]
Maybe SEPTA's a little jaded about doing stuff for their regular riders since
they already don't give a shit about the new MFSE cars. Let's see, windows
scratched, paint on the seats, graffiti on the plastic... Oh, and the same
applies for the buses which are only 2 years old...
I wouldn't be too keen on fixing up a station just to have some
"loyal rider" piss on it.
The Man with No Serotonin
> This is one of the things that burns me about SEPTA. Today we have
> a front page article in the Inquirer about how SEPTA wants the subway stations to
> shine between City Hall and Pattison Ave. Why? Because Republicans are coming to
> town next year.
>
> Why don't the cretins at SEPTA stop screwing the people who actually pay for the
> system? Namely us.
Since something like 80% of SEPTA's capital budget comes from the federal
government, there may actually be some sense in this.
John Hogan
Biddle Law Library/AFSCME Local 590
Karen Byrd
(Chris Wallgren) wrote:
> Karen Byrd (by...@mscf.med.upenn.edu) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Maybe SEPTA's a little jaded about doing stuff for their regular riders since
> they already don't give a shit about the new MFSE cars. Let's see, windows
> scratched, paint on the seats, graffiti on the plastic... Oh, and the same
> applies for the buses which are only 2 years old...
> I wouldn't be too keen on fixing up a station just to have some
> "loyal rider" piss on it.
I'm aware of the incivility of these acts. But the fact remains that
SEPTA isn't doing jack to enforce order. Motormen don't do anything,
don't say anything when they see this behavior. They don't stop people
who are eating on vehicles when it's supposed to be part of their jobs
to do so. And SEPTA cops? I haven't
seen one in months!
--
Karen Byrd
Artclemons
>True, but its just good business sense. The idea is to make things look
>good for visitors so they receive a positive impression of the city. This
>helps make some people who visit the city want to return to explore more
>than they can during their convention. More visitors means more jobs and
>tax dollars which benefits us all.
Actually then it would make more sense to spruce up the Market-Frankford
stops. I also note that if a conventioneer rides one stop too far, said
conventioneer will be exposed to all of the things that SEPTA wants to
hide or sweep under the rug so to speak.
Frankly, there aren't that many cities in the U.S. where public transit is
reliable enough that conventioneers might reasonably try to ride it. Philly
happens to be one. I don't think that people who attend conventions get
the idea to come back and visit. I certainly haven't gone back to a city
because I attended a convention there. I also note that up until recently,
Philly didn't have the hotel space in the area to bring in lots of tourists for
an extended stay, and it also doesn't have infrastructure set up to accomodate
someone interested in the revolutionary war period, who would want to see
major battle sites of the revolutionary war as well as let's say the Liberty
Bell, where the founder of Penn was laid to rest and/or lived, and let's say
the houses from the period along Germantown Avenue, some of which could
use lots of tourist interest if just to keep them going. Further despite the
relative closeness of Valley Forge, I have pity on someone who doesn't
drive or have an alternate means of getting there. The region could sell
history as a tourist attraction, and doesn't. Of course, the region could also
for example help Camden get some hotels too, as I note that Camden
along the waterfront is relatively bare, has a good view of Philadelphia
and is reasonably close too. This is a metropolitan region, a decent set of
hotels in Camden would be available for major conventions in the future,
and finding space isn't as much of a problem either. Come to think of
it, some folks might want to see where Washington is supposed to have
crossed the Delaware without having to do lots of driving too. The point is
that this region probably has more in the way of historical things than most
places in the country. There are residences where it's undisputed that
Washington slept. Why isn't the region setting up buses or other transport
to take people from downtown or Camden to these places. Even
republican delegates are interested in American history, but somehow
sprucing up part of the Broad St. Subway won't cut it.
-art clemons-
Chris Wallgren
: I'm aware of the incivility of these acts. But the fact remains that
: SEPTA isn't doing jack to enforce order. Motormen don't do anything,
: don't say anything when they see this behavior. They don't stop people
: who are eating on vehicles when it's supposed to be part of their jobs
: to do so. And SEPTA cops? I haven't
: seen one in months!
Very true. I did see one this morning, not that he was doing much of anything!
SEPTA (IMHO) also made the mistake of picking an interior color (light beige)
that is totally inappropriate for the heavy use of the MFSE. Stupid. Stupid.
Stupid.
-Chris
Exile on Market Street
Good points.
Now, since you mentioned it in passing, one in defense of what's going on:
City Hall Station will get a mere cosmetic job for the conventioneers. The
honest-to-God, heavy-duty rebuild that the station needs will be put off
until after they're gone (original plans had called for it to start early
next year).
On second thought, maybe this isn't an "in defense of" item. What happens
if the conventioneers come and go and the major work gets put off again?
Colin R. Leech
Karen Byrd (by...@mscf.med.upenn.edu) wrote:
> smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
>>
>> Not that I disagree with you all that much, but:
>>
>> --Most *individuals* I know tend to clean their houses more thoroughly when
>> "company's coming" than they do for family. This is the same dynamic writ
>> large.
>
>> --The "people who live here" tend to do a piss-poor job of picking up after
>> themselves, so can you really blame the people who get paid to do this if
>> they're less than enthusiastic about keeping things clean for such an
>> unappreciative bunch?
Not to disagree with either of you :-), but there is also a 'vicious
circle' at work. By not cleaning up after the messy people, SEPTA only
encourages other people to be messy. As Toronto's TTC points out in some
of its posters in subway stations, once the first piece of garbage is
dropped, much more will follow. Same with graffiti, which is why cities
that are serious about reducing graffiti implement 'zero tolerance'
policies. People are less likely to litter or defile a pristine station or
vehicle than one that already shows signs of abuse and neglect.
> Sandy, indicate how any riders are responsible for the ground in grim,
> peeling paint and dungeon-like lighting that
> exists at City Hall Station? Or the water stains on the walls on the BSS's
> Spring
> Garden Station? And if SEPTA enforced their own rules about fooding-
> eating and smoking WHICH THEY DON'T it would alter some of what you mentioned
> above. I blame most it on SEPTA.
(posted and e-mailed)
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Matthew Mitchell
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
>City Hall Station will get a mere cosmetic job for the conventioneers. The
>honest-to-God, heavy-duty rebuild that the station needs will be put off
>until after they're gone (original plans had called for it to start early
>next year).
Sandy implied this, but I'll say it directly: the honest-to-God rebuild
will be pretty disruptive, and a summer when there are important visitors
around City Hall (even if they _don't_ ride the subway) is not a real good
time to do it.
Karen Byrd
mitc...@dvarp.org (Matthew Mitchell) wrote:
Sorry Matt. But I don't see Dan Quayle or Gary Bauer as important visitors.
They're whitebread riff-raff in my mind.
--
Karen Byrd
Greg Doyle
On 23 Apr 1999, Karen Byrd wrote:
> > Sandy implied this, but I'll say it directly: the honest-to-God rebuild
> > will be pretty disruptive, and a summer when there are important visitors
> > around City Hall (even if they _don't_ ride the subway) is not a real good
> > time to do it.
>
> Sorry Matt. But I don't see Dan Quayle or Gary Bauer as important visitors.
> They're whitebread riff-raff in my mind.
Dan and Gary might indeed be riding public transit. By that time, each of
their campaigns will have crashed and burned and the money will be tight.
He he he.....whitebread riff-raff....that's a good one....
GD
....of course the killer scene will be Danny tapping locals on the
shoulder and asking how to get to the orange line.....
Marianne Das
[snip]
it also doesn't have infrastructure set up to accomodate
: someone interested in the revolutionary war period, who would want to see
: major battle sites of the revolutionary war as well as let's say the Liberty
: Bell, where the founder of Penn was laid to rest and/or lived, and let's say
: the houses from the period along Germantown Avenue, some of which could
: use lots of tourist interest if just to keep them going.
Some years ago SEPTA did provide free direct bust transportation on the
day when the Battle of Germantown was being re-enacted. Beside the battle,
it was a great opportunity to see the mansion with the cannonball in its
front wall (Cliveden?) and Uppsala across the street.
:Further despite the
: relative closeness of Valley Forge, I have pity on someone who doesn't
: drive or have an alternate means of getting there. The region could sell
: history as a tourist attraction, and doesn't.
You know SEPTA (or was it PTC -- it's been so long ago!) used to have
weekend bus excursions to places like Valley Forge and Longwood Gardens.
This is something that would be appreciated not only by visitors but by
those of us who don't have cars.
[snip]
You have some great ideas. Why not come up with a wish list, Art
Marianne Das
mari...@netaxs.com
Matthew Mitchell
mari...@netaxs.com (Marianne Das) wrote:
>You know SEPTA (or was it PTC -- it's been so long ago!) used to have
>weekend bus excursions to places like Valley Forge and Longwood Gardens.
>This is something that would be appreciated not only by visitors but by
>those of us who don't have cars.
The legal status of those trips is questionable, following passage of
legislation restricting charter operations by public transit agencies.
lwin
> weekend bus excursions to places like Valley Forge and Longwood Gardens.
> This is something that would be appreciated not only by visitors but by
> those of us who don't have cars.
SEPTA continued the "rambles" to various places. It was operated
as part of the Charter division. As Matt explained, the Feds decreed
that transit companies can no longer operate charter service if it
competes with private companies.
Marianne--did you ever ride one of those rambles?
Isaacshome
>Actually then it would make more sense to spruce up the Market->Frankford
>stops.
I think SEPTA is already doing over the elevated stops, with the new el. But
why the subway stops. They are in much better condition than those on the BSS,
City Hall being the worst.
>I also note that if a conventioneer rides one stop too far, said
>conventioneer will be exposed to all of the things that SEPTA wants to
>hide or sweep under the rug so to speak.
What do you mean
Isaac Shomer
Artclemons
(Isaacshome) writes:
>What do you mean
IF the purpose of sprucing up the stations is to give a good impression of
the city, the older stations further down the line will give away the need
for cleaning and more frequent maintenance.
-art clemons-
Artclemons
>Some years ago SEPTA did provide free direct bust transportation on the
>day when the Battle of Germantown was being re-enacted. Beside the battle,
>it was a great opportunity to see the mansion with the cannonball in its
>front wall (Cliveden?) and Uppsala across the street.
I didn't mention special events like that, but even for example offering a
family all day pass for the approximate price of round trip fares for an
average family to events like that would help a great deal.
While most of the folks attending the Battle of Germantown re-enacting are
from the local suburbs, most of them drive, and end up parking on side
streets. Their cars of course are no safer than they would be if they
rode public transportation and those who live near the even might be
better off too. I note that the tourist brochures don't usually mention
the Battle of Germantown either, another of those reasons I grit my
teeth when I hear that people want more tourists. Spreading out where
tourists go makes life easier for the tourists and the locals. Germantown
Avenue is a prime example of history that still exists but is mostly ignored,
when it could be generating income for the city and region. I also note that
the closest hotel is in Chestnut Hill, and it has only limited space, but
a bus ride on the 23 would get one close to most of the sites on Germantown
Avenue and downtown from that hotel.
-art clemons-