Trenton Cut Off
Al Caprara
about the continued use of the Trenton Cut-off for freight
operations. How far has SEPTA progressed with the Cross County
Metro. Will there even be a rail line thee by 2000 or will it be
abandoned or mail into a trail? As always,Thanks. Al in Philly
John Hay
The Cut-Off is part of NS now. As it did under PRR and PC, it will tie
into the Northeast Corridor at Morrisville, and NS will be running
freights this way onto the NEC, mostly at night. Don't know where this
leaves the Woodbourne Connection, as the ex-RDC New York Division is now
owned by CSX. I think freight patterns will change slowly, rather than
rapidly. So in other words, the Cut-Off is, and will be, quite active
with freight.
As for the Cross Country (sic) Corridor, don't expect anything anytime
soon, and definitely not before 2000. It's still in the major investment
study stage, and no mode has been recommended yet. The Schuylkill Valley
Project (like others on this NG, I refuse to call it "Metro") has a
higher priority because it serves a wide range of needs, while the
X-County would make stops far from its intended markets. IMO, it may
never get built, at least not as a rail line.
JH
Remove "at" in e-mail address to reply
"Well, they certainly seem to be in bad need of brains around
here."
佑apt. James T. Kirk, _Spock's Brain_
ande...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Trenton Cut-off is extremely bright... a lot brighter than seeing any rail
laid for the proposed "Cross County Metro".
The "Cut-off" was once the major "diversion" route for PRR for freight
destined to points east of Philadelphia. The line starts at Thorndale on the
former PRR mainline, with other "cut-offs", since abandoned and removed at a
point near SEPTA's Frazer Yard. The line proceeds directly east over the
once "low grade" which parallels the PA Turnpike to EARNEST... on the east
bank of the Schuykill River. These days this segment is primarily used as an
industrial branch by Conrail - now Norfolk Southern to service many
industrial complexes such as Philadelphia Gear. EARNEST is now called
CP-KING (the designated "Control Point" from Mt. Laurel, NJ.). CP-KING is
the junction of the connecting track which leads to SEPTA's R-6 Norristown
Line at CP-FORD (Ford Street in lower Norristown). From this point Conrail
Freights... and there are at least a dozen through and local trains which ply
this route, connect with the old Reading Mainline west... now referred to as
CR's Harrisburg Line. The connection with the M/L is at NORRIS. From
CP-KING the line proceeds east to Morrisville where CR maintains a large
Intermodal transfer facility.
With the conveyance of this once double tracked line to NS one can expect
significant increases in freight traffic, including trains destined to points
along Amtrak's NEC, which again will see much more "off hours" freight
traffic. Most of the catenary poles of this once electrified line are gone as
is most of the second track. These days the majority of the Philadelphia
Area's "Double Stacks" use this segment.
There is plenty of room... some bridge abutements and clearnces would have to
be improved - probably at significant cost, for expansion. However, with
Pennsylvania's pencant for extremely slow progress, it is not like that the
much discussed "Cross County Metro" will see any construction for years.
Chas
In article <OXiunE9...@nih2naac.prod2.compuserve.com>,
Al Caprara <7303...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> Now that Conrail is NS, what prognosis, if any, can anybody offer
> about the continued use of the Trenton Cut-off for freight
> operations. How far has SEPTA progressed with the Cross County
> Metro. Will there even be a rail line thee by 2000 or will it be
> abandoned or mail into a trail? As always,Thanks. Al in Philly
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
ctra...@my-dejanews.com
Al Caprara <7303...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> Now that Conrail is NS, what prognosis, if any, can anybody offer
> about the continued use of the Trenton Cut-off for freight
> operations. How far has SEPTA progressed with the Cross County
> Metro. Will there even be a rail line thee by 2000 or will it be
> abandoned or mail into a trail? As always,Thanks. Al in Philly
SEPTA is still in the preliminary stages of the Cross County Corridor study,
unlike the Schuylkill Valley Corridor, where a preliminary MIS was released a
few months ago. I don't think the line will be abandoned, however, I wouldn't
make reservations for a train in Morrisville just yet (maybe 5-10 years, given
the slow nature of transit studies -- not just a SEPTA thing, it's modus
operandi for all agencies).
Kevin Hecht
>
> The "prognosis" for the continued, and even increased use of the old "Pennsy"
> Trenton Cut-off is extremely bright... a lot brighter than seeing any rail
> laid for the proposed "Cross County Metro".
>
> The "Cut-off" was once the major "diversion" route for PRR for freight
> destined to points east of Philadelphia. The line starts at Thorndale on the
> former PRR mainline, with other "cut-offs", since abandoned and removed at a
> point near SEPTA's Frazer Yard. The line proceeds directly east over the
> once "low grade" which parallels the PA Turnpike to EARNEST... on the east
> bank of the Schuykill River. These days this segment is primarily used as an
> industrial branch by Conrail - now Norfolk Southern to service many
> industrial complexes such as Philadelphia Gear. EARNEST is now called
> CP-KING (the designated "Control Point" from Mt. Laurel, NJ.). CP-KING is
> the junction of the connecting track which leads to SEPTA's R-6 Norristown
> Line at CP-FORD (Ford Street in lower Norristown). From this point Conrail
> Freights... and there are at least a dozen through and local trains which ply
> this route, connect with the old Reading Mainline west... now referred to as
> CR's Harrisburg Line. The connection with the M/L is at NORRIS. From
> CP-KING the line proceeds east to Morrisville where CR maintains a large
> Intermodal transfer facility.
>
> With the conveyance of this once double tracked line to NS one can expect
> significant increases in freight traffic, including trains destined to points
> along Amtrak's NEC, which again will see much more "off hours" freight
> traffic.
After these trains get past Frazer Yard, I presume they head west on the
former Harrisburg Main Line. Do they actually follow the Amtrak all the
way to Harrisburg, or do they get off somewhere? I think there used to
be another cutoff or line off of the main that deviated around Atglen in
western Chester County then crossed the Susquehanna south of Lancaster,
but I could be wrong - it's been a good while since I was out there, and
this line may no longer exist.
> Most of the catenary poles of this once electrified line are gone as
> is most of the second track. These days the majority of the Philadelphia
> Area's "Double Stacks" use this segment.
The catenary poles remain (without the train-level wires) from around
the SR 309 exit of the Pennsylvania Turnpike west to Frazer Yard.
However, if there are to be electrified trains on this line again, the
poles would almost certainly need to be replaced given the condition
they're in.
I think the upper wires on these cat poles are still in use, though,
perhaps by PECO.
> There is plenty of room... some bridge abutements and clearnces would have to
> be improved - probably at significant cost, for expansion.
I haven't checked to see what kind of space is afforded the ROW, but
lots of bridges are being replaced on this route - recently, West Valley
Rd in Tredyffrin Township was replaced, Valley Forge Rd, less than a
mile west, is about to reopen, and the SR 352 bridge just west of Frazer
Yard was being replaced last I was out that way. They don't appear to
restrict the ROW, but expanding past 2 tracks might not be easy (not
that it's going to happen anytime soon).
> However, with
> Pennsylvania's pencant for extremely slow progress, it is not like that the
> much discussed "Cross County Metro" will see any construction for years.
>
> Chas
--
Kevin Hecht
Al Caprara
that my use of the term "Metro" is not without authority. All on
this newsgroup have read and seen the term "Metro" employed
vis-a-vis the cross county or Reading proposed service. I do not
endorse the term, just use it. Personally, I do not think that
the sobriquet is appropriate, but no one can deny that the term
has been employed in the contexts stated. This is an "angels on
the pinhead" argument. Moving on, what will be the contemplated
service? Can anybody offer a riposte? Thank You, AL in Philly
Al Caprara
line noawadays around the old Glen Loch station. There appears to
be a vestigial ROW (no tracks, no Catenary poles) which follows
Rte 30 until Whitford station where it crosses over the
Harrisburg line and again departs the Harrisburg line . This
apparently abandonded line continues around Downingtown (there is
an unused bridge south of the borough) and continues onto
Thorndale. There seems to be some freightyard activity at
Thorndale. Query, is this apparently abandoned line contemplated
for use in the "Cross County Metro ?It would seem logical to link
up with the proposed staion in Thorndale
For the most part (and somebody please let me know if I
am wrong) the Harrisburg line seems devoid of any freight service
until about Lancaster.
There is an abandoned trainstation platform at Atglen.
There one can see the branch of the Atglen and Susquehanna low
grade line. Again, it appears completely abandoned. CR (oops,
NS) seems to prefer the cut-off from Lancaster to Colombia for a
low grade freight service.
Final Question, is there any regular service between
Frazier and CP King? Thanks to all in advance
ctra...@my-dejanews.com
Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> ande...@Oasys.dt.navy.mil wrote:
> I haven't checked to see what kind of space is afforded the ROW, but
> lots of bridges are being replaced on this route - recently, West Valley
> Rd in Tredyffrin Township was replaced, Valley Forge Rd, less than a
> mile west, is about to reopen, and the SR 352 bridge just west of Frazer
> Yard was being replaced last I was out that way. They don't appear to
> restrict the ROW, but expanding past 2 tracks might not be easy (not
> that it's going to happen anytime soon).
Some of the trackage from west of Glenloch towards Great Valley has been
removed, with the grade crossings at PA 100 and US 30 around the Exton Square
Mall area paved over.
mc...@my-dejanews.com
#T19KOP0...@ntdwwaaw.compuserve.com>,
Al Caprara <7303...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> Thank you for your reply.IIRC the Cut-Off rejoins the Harrisburg
> line noawadays around the old Glen Loch station. There appears to
> be a vestigial ROW (no tracks, no Catenary poles) which follows
> Rte 30 until Whitford station where it crosses over the
> Harrisburg line and again departs the Harrisburg line . This
> apparently abandonded line continues around Downingtown (there is
> an unused bridge south of the borough) and continues onto
> Thorndale. There seems to be some freightyard activity at
> Thorndale. Query, is this apparently abandoned line contemplated
> for use in the "Cross County Metro ?It would seem logical to link
> up with the proposed staion in Thorndale
There are *Two* grades that leave the main line
somewhere west of paoli and angle northeast from it
(they are basically going directly east, the mainline is
really going southeast there). One is a grade
seperated line, the other was not. In the king of
prussia area they are only a few hundred feet apart.
The grade seperated one is farther south. This line is
definitely in use out to somewhere like malvern. I
don't know where it terminates, but I am pretty sure
it no longer ties into the main line - having looked for
it from the main line trains a bunch of times. West of
the Schulkyll, there is not much freight traffic on it,
and I believe conrail *may* have sold this portion to
a short line.
Anyone know if this is still a shortline, or if it still
ties into the mainline somehow?? The flyovers and
such in the Frazier...downingtown area are
confusing!!!
The other grade left the old reading, now conrail line
along the schulkyll almost underneath the bridge that
the trenton cut-off takes over the river. it curved
around, climbing the hill. It still exists for some
industry (anyone know which one?) but does not make
it very far. The tracks and many bridges are gone
from that unknown industry west to wherever it met
the main line, but the grade is quite easy to follow.
[I hope Steam Powered Video comes out with a new NE
US rail atlas...they should use the CR merger as an
excuse to update their old one - which is still
enormously useful if you don't have it]
> For the most part (and somebody please let me know if I
> am wrong) the Harrisburg line seems devoid of any freight service
> until about Lancaster.
There is definitely, i think, some significant service
in the Parkesburg area. Maybe. :) I think I
remember a spur to a factory that looked pretty
active, off to the south of the tracks.
--
David McCabe
mc...@my-dejanews.com
Kevin Hecht
>
> In article <35E36111...@idt.net>,
> Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> > ande...@Oasys.dt.navy.mil wrote:
>
> > I haven't checked to see what kind of space is afforded the ROW, but
> > lots of bridges are being replaced on this route - recently, West Valley
> > Rd in Tredyffrin Township was replaced, Valley Forge Rd, less than a
> > mile west, is about to reopen, and the SR 352 bridge just west of Frazer
> > Yard was being replaced last I was out that way. They don't appear to
> > restrict the ROW, but expanding past 2 tracks might not be easy (not
> > that it's going to happen anytime soon).
>
> Some of the trackage from west of Glenloch towards Great Valley has been
> removed, with the grade crossings at PA 100 and US 30 around the Exton Square
> Mall area paved over.
AFAIK the Trenton Cutoff itself doesn't have grade crossings anywhere.
There was a line - I forget what it was called - that ran parallel to
the Trenton Cutoff from around Philadelphia Gear in King of Prussia west
to around Whitford where it rejoined the Pennsy main line. It was
definitely not PRR though - it may have been the Great Valley RR or
something similar, some old Western Main Line/Chester Co. maps show it
but I can't find one that does at the moment.
The rails on this line were removed within the past 4 years, and several
old bridges removed, specifically the ones over Valley Forge Rd in Devon
and Valley Rd in Paoli (both Tredyffrin Twp). You can also see where
these bridges used to be from US 202. Supposedly there are plans to turn
this into a trail, but I haven't seen much in the local press about this
lately. This is the line that crosses US 30 and SR 100 in Exton, where
the crossings have been paved over, and the crossing at West Valley Rd
in Tredyffrin was also paved recently. They also replaced an old wooden
bridge over this line on Swedesford Rd in East Whiteland Twp a few years
ago by merely filling part of the ROW wide enough to put the road in
without a bridge.
That line had been abandoned for a good while - I don't ever recall
seeing a train on it in my lifetime. I've seen a bunch on the Trenton
Cutoff, though.
--
Kevin Hecht
Kevin Hecht
>
> Thank you for your reply.IIRC the Cut-Off rejoins the Harrisburg
> line noawadays around the old Glen Loch station. There appears to
> be a vestigial ROW (no tracks, no Catenary poles) which follows
> Rte 30 until Whitford station where it crosses over the
> Harrisburg line and again departs the Harrisburg line . This
> apparently abandonded line continues around Downingtown (there is
> an unused bridge south of the borough) and continues onto
> Thorndale.
I think there are some catenary poles (without wires) that are visible
from Boot Rd just SE of Downingtown, but I could be wrong. I've always
wondered what this line as used for - freight I guess to reduce traffic
on the main line - but I rarely see it mentioned as part of the Trenton
Cutoff. The bridges at Whitford and over US 322 in Downingtown are
pretty impressive engineering works.
> There seems to be some freightyard activity at
> Thorndale.
Is anything actually happening there? Last I was out there, it was just
empty, though perhaps Amtrak or SEPTA occasionally use it. It remains
electrified, and is quite large. I think I heard that PRR used it to add
pushers to freights in its heyday to get them up the steep grade between
Frazer Yard and Malvern.
> Query, is this apparently abandoned line contemplated
> for use in the "Cross County Metro ?It would seem logical to link
> up with the proposed staion in Thorndale
The Frazer - Thorndale abandoned part isn't part of the plan that I've
seen, but someone more familiar with the plans (fantasies?) would have
to confirm or deny that. I don't see any reason why a cross county train
using the Trenton Cutoff wouldn't rejoin the ex-PRR main line at Frazer
though, since it would add Exton, Whitford, Downingtown, the future
Thorndale station, and possibly points west to the line whereas the
abandoned ROW doesn't directly link with the stations.
> For the most part (and somebody please let me know if I
> am wrong) the Harrisburg line seems devoid of any freight service
> until about Lancaster.
> There is an abandoned trainstation platform at Atglen.
Is this on the PRR main line before it turns north towards Gap and
ultimately Lancaster?
> There one can see the branch of the Atglen and Susquehanna low
> grade line. Again, it appears completely abandoned. CR (oops,
> NS) seems to prefer the cut-off from Lancaster to Colombia for a
> low grade freight service.
Hmm, so there was indeed a PRR line from Atglen down to the Susquehanna?
(Presumably this then ran north along the river either to Harrisburg or
the Enola yards?)
> Final Question, is there any regular service between
> Frazier and CP King? Thanks to all in advance
Maybe local freight, but probably nothing more. Conrail still uses the
Trenton Cutoff - sparingly - and the little spurs out of Phoenixville
off of the old Reading main line.
--
Kevin Hecht
Kevin Hecht
> In article <#T19KOP0...@ntdwwaaw.compuserve.com>,
> Al Caprara <7303...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> > Thank you for your reply.IIRC the Cut-Off rejoins the Harrisburg
> > line noawadays around the old Glen Loch station. There appears to
> > be a vestigial ROW (no tracks, no Catenary poles) which follows
> > Rte 30 until Whitford station where it crosses over the
> > Harrisburg line and again departs the Harrisburg line . This
> > apparently abandonded line continues around Downingtown (there is
> > an unused bridge south of the borough) and continues onto
> > Thorndale. There seems to be some freightyard activity at
> > Thorndale. Query, is this apparently abandoned line contemplated
> > for use in the "Cross County Metro ?It would seem logical to link
> > up with the proposed staion in Thorndale
>
> There are *Two* grades that leave the main line
> somewhere west of paoli and angle northeast from it
> (they are basically going directly east, the mainline is
> really going southeast there).
Correct - these lines, one the formerly electrified Trenton Cutoff,
originates at the Frazer Yard between Malvern and Exton stations, and
the other never-electrified single track line, recently removed,
interected with the PRR line at or near Whitford, possibly as far west
as Downingtown. The latter runs parallel but a bit north of the Trenton
Cutoff PRR line until King of Prussia where it intersects with it
between the Gulph Rd and Henderson Rd overpasses. This line was not PRR
- for some reason the name Great Valley RR sticks in my mind as I
mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
> One is a grade
> seperated line, the other was not. In the king of
> prussia area they are only a few hundred feet apart.
> The grade seperated one is farther south. This line is
> definitely in use out to somewhere like malvern. I
> don't know where it terminates, but I am pretty sure
> it no longer ties into the main line - having looked for
> it from the main line trains a bunch of times.
It intersects at Frazer Yard just west of SR 352 and just east of the US
202 overpass near the US 30 interchange. If you're only riding the SEPTA
R5 to Paoli or Malvern, you won't see it intersect since it happens west
of there.
> West of
> the Schulkyll, there is not much freight traffic on it,
> and I believe conrail *may* have sold this portion to
> a short line.
I believe the last train I saw on the Trenton line was a Conrail.
> Anyone know if this is still a shortline, or if it still
> ties into the mainline somehow??
See above.
> The flyovers and
> such in the Frazier...downingtown area are
> confusing!!!
You can go to http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/terra_findaspot.htm
and search for Frazer PA USA and the RR lines should be pretty visible.
It's a 1992 image so the US 202/US 30 interchage looks different today,
but most else is the same.
[..]
--
Kevin Hecht
mike szilagyi
> AFAIK the Trenton Cutoff itself doesn't have grade crossings anywhere.
> There was a line - I forget what it was called - that ran parallel to
> the Trenton Cutoff from around Philadelphia Gear in King of Prussia west
> to around Whitford where it rejoined the Pennsy main line. It was
> definitely not PRR though - it may have been the Great Valley RR or
> something similar, some old Western Main Line/Chester Co. maps show it
> but I can't find one that does at the moment.
The line was the Chester Valley Branch of the Reading. It does parallel
the Trenton Cut-Off and Route 202 westward from Bridgeport. Last I
heard, a short line was operating the segment from the McCoy quarry in
Upper Merion, crossing 202 at the new Greyhound terminal, connecting to
the ex-Reading main line at Bridgeport, on very bad rail. I haven't
seen any traffic lately though. West of Henderson Road, the some of the
right of way has been parceled out to housing developments etc. over the
last ten years.
> The rails on this line were removed within the past 4 years, and several
> old bridges removed, specifically the ones over Valley Forge Rd in Devon
> and Valley Rd in Paoli (both Tredyffrin Twp). You can also see where
> these bridges used to be from US 202. Supposedly there are plans to turn
> this into a trail, but I haven't seen much in the local press about this
> lately.
<snip>
A few months ago I had a chance to look at PennDOT's plans for the new
202 interchange at King of Prussia, and ISTR a proposed long
pedestrian/bicycle bridge planned for just north of the proposed new
Trenton Cut-off bridge, next to Philly Gear. The bridge is intended to
connect somehow to the Chester Valley Branch trail, although part of the
Chester Valley right of way is to be used by a new connector ramp from
422 directly to the Schuylkill Expressway.
Legend has it that the Chester Valley Branch was the intended route for
a new service Merritt Taylor of Red Arrow (and P&W (now Route 100)) had
planned to Downingtown, using the two ex-North Shore Electroliners. The
"Libertyliners" did run between Upper Darby and Norristown until 1976.
Mike Szilagyi
http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi
Matthew Mitchell
Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
>There was a line - I forget what it was called - that ran parallel to
>the Trenton Cutoff from around Philadelphia Gear in King of Prussia west
>to around Whitford where it rejoined the Pennsy main line. It was
>definitely not PRR though - it may have been the Great Valley RR or
>something similar, some old Western Main Line/Chester Co. maps show it
>but I can't find one that does at the moment.
I'd have to look at a topo to be sure, but I think you're talking about the
Chester Valley Branch (ex-Reading).
/_\ Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
/[ ]\ Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
/ | \ PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
/ _|_ \ voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
--------- http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp
WooF
branch of the REading Comany. Some years back, Merrit Taylor, who ran the
Rad Arrow Lines (light rail in the western suburbs) tried to buy the thing
for a light rail line; the REading Company wouldn't give him the time of
day. As several posters have said, the Great Valley line is now abandoned,
and most track removed.
The whole point of the Trenton Cutoff was to by-pass Philadelphia for
freight trains from the New York -- New Jersey area though Harrisburg to
the west. It was a hevily used, double-track, electrified route -- but
Conrail downgraded it, since for them, the ex-Erie-Lackawana and the ex
New York Central lines carried most of the freight to the west that
formerly used PRR trackage. Norfolk Southern might put substantial freight
on that route again, as it competes with the now-CSX, formerly NYC line
through Albany.
George Scithers of owls...@netaxs.com
WooF
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, mike szilagyi wrote:
> The line was the Chester Valley Branch of the Reading. It does parallel
> the Trenton Cut-Off and Route 202 westward from Bridgeport. Last I
> heard, a short line was operating the segment from the McCoy quarry in
> Upper Merion, crossing 202 at the new Greyhound terminal, connecting to
> the ex-Reading main line at Bridgeport, on very bad rail. I haven't
> seen any traffic lately though.
That branch still runs a train a day or so: usually three or four box cars
and what is probly a hand-me-down diesel switcher with no company
identification on the sides.
John Hay
> > Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> > > ande...@Oasys.dt.navy.mil wrote:
> >
> > > I haven't checked to see what kind of space is afforded the ROW, but
> > > lots of bridges are being replaced on this route - recently, West Valley
> > > Rd in Tredyffrin Township was replaced, Valley Forge Rd, less than a
> > > mile west, is about to reopen, and the SR 352 bridge just west of Frazer
> > > Yard was being replaced last I was out that way. They don't appear to
> > > restrict the ROW, but expanding past 2 tracks might not be easy (not
> > > that it's going to happen anytime soon).
> >
> > Some of the trackage from west of Glenloch towards Great Valley has been
> > removed, with the grade crossings at PA 100 and US 30 around the Exton Square
> > Mall area paved over.
>
It has at least two. One is Gravers Rd. in Plymouth Twp., the other is
County Line Rd. in Bucks and Montco. The former is lightly used, the
latter is a busy road.
There used to be a third crossing, Crooked Lane in Upper Merion Twp.
(King Manor), but that was eliminated about 10 years ago with an
underpass. The latter was long planned when the Cut-Off was a major
freight line, but by the time it was finished, that part of the Cut-Off
was no longer an important CR route.
JH
--
Remove "at" in e-mail address to reply
If a floor is clean enough to eat off of,
once you eat off it it’s no longer clean.
Kevin Hecht
[...]
> Yet another question while I am at it...a little bit west
> of paoli, there is a line which leaves the south side of
> the Main Line, and swings *underneath* the main line
> and veers off to the north. When I have seen it, it
> shows signs of being used, but not much. Wierd part
> is that it still had caternary a few years back, and I
> have not figured out where it goes/went and who used
> it. I dont think it was/is part of paoli rail yard - i
> think it was was/is west of the yard. Anyone know?
This looks to be some kind of spur, and it's still electrified. You can
see it if driving along W Central Ave in Paoli since it crosses it. The
line seems to go only about 500-750 feet north of the Central Ave
overpass - which runs along the north side of Paoli Yard - and then
abruptly ends. I don't know if it used to go somewhere (though it would
have had to go almost straight down a steep hill), but I doubt it.
Perhaps it was used for turnarounds or something similar?
I doubt it's been used since Paoli Yard was abandoned by SEPTA in favor
of Frazer due to the PCB contamination issues at Paoli, and may not have
been used for a good while before the yard closure about 2 years ago.
Another issue is the future of the Paoli Yard land after the PCB
contamination cleanup that's about three decades overdue and still
hasn't begun. Some want to put a new Paoli station in there and make it
a regional transportation center (SEPTA rail and bus, plus Amtrak), but
we'll see.
--
Kevin Hecht
mc...@my-dejanews.com
Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> mc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I am pretty sure [the Trenton Cut-Off]
> > it no longer ties into the main line - having looked for
> > it from the main line trains a bunch of times.
>
> It intersects at Frazer Yard just west of SR 352 and just east of the US
> 202 overpass near the US 30 interchange. If you're only riding the SEPTA
> R5 to Paoli or Malvern, you won't see it intersect since it happens west
> of there.
I've seen what I think is the connection on Amtrak
west of Malvern. The grade is quite clear, but I had
the impression that the rails do not connect! Once the
flyover gets low enough that you can see the level of
the rails from the train, there are no rails. Then,
travelling west, the rail starts.
Or is this connection severed, but a connection not
visible from westbound trains in place? Hard to tell
when going through there by train at 79 mph or so.
> > West of
> > the Schulkyll, there is not much freight traffic on it,
> > and I believe conrail *may* have sold this portion to
> > a short line.
>
> I believe the last train I saw on the Trenton line was a Conrail.
I stand corrected - I think the shortline I am thinking
of operates on the remaining portion of the Chester
Valley Branch. That is a Short Shortline!!!!
Yet another question while I am at it...a little bit west
of paoli, there is a line which leaves the south side of
the Main Line, and swings *underneath* the main line
and veers off to the north. When I have seen it, it
shows signs of being used, but not much. Wierd part
is that it still had caternary a few years back, and I
have not figured out where it goes/went and who used
it. I dont think it was/is part of paoli rail yard - i
think it was was/is west of the yard. Anyone know?
--
Matthew Mitchell
delivered to them over that line, and that occasional use kept the branch
from being abandoned.
ande...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Just to add to your confusion...
The Trenton "Cut-off" is not, in fact, totally grade separated. There are a
few grade crossings... not many, which remain. One the heavily used segment
east of the Schuykill River is Graver's Road and County Line Road separating
Bucks and Montgomery Counties. To the west, where the question is mute, are
a couple which provide road access to local industries such as Philadelphia
Gear. The line is grade separated west of King of Prussia.
Chas
In article <35E4E1A6...@idt.net>,
Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> ctra...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <35E36111...@idt.net>,
> > Kevin Hecht <khec...@idt.net> wrote:
> > > ande...@Oasys.dt.navy.mil wrote:
> >
> > > I haven't checked to see what kind of space is afforded the ROW, but
> > > lots of bridges are being replaced on this route - recently, West Valley
> > > Rd in Tredyffrin Township was replaced, Valley Forge Rd, less than a
> > > mile west, is about to reopen, and the SR 352 bridge just west of Frazer
> > > Yard was being replaced last I was out that way. They don't appear to
> > > restrict the ROW, but expanding past 2 tracks might not be easy (not
> > > that it's going to happen anytime soon).
> >
> > Some of the trackage from west of Glenloch towards Great Valley has been
> > removed, with the grade crossings at PA 100 and US 30 around the Exton
Square
> > Mall area paved over.
>
> AFAIK the Trenton Cutoff itself doesn't have grade crossings anywhere.
> There was a line - I forget what it was called - that ran parallel to
> the Trenton Cutoff from around Philadelphia Gear in King of Prussia west
> to around Whitford where it rejoined the Pennsy main line. It was
> definitely not PRR though - it may have been the Great Valley RR or
> something similar, some old Western Main Line/Chester Co. maps show it
> but I can't find one that does at the moment.
>
> The rails on this line were removed within the past 4 years, and several
> old bridges removed, specifically the ones over Valley Forge Rd in Devon
> and Valley Rd in Paoli (both Tredyffrin Twp). You can also see where
> these bridges used to be from US 202. Supposedly there are plans to turn
> this into a trail, but I haven't seen much in the local press about this
> lately. This is the line that crosses US 30 and SR 100 in Exton, where
> the crossings have been paved over, and the crossing at West Valley Rd
> in Tredyffrin was also paved recently. They also replaced an old wooden
> bridge over this line on Swedesford Rd in East Whiteland Twp a few years
> ago by merely filling part of the ROW wide enough to put the road in
> without a bridge.
>
> That line had been abandoned for a good while - I don't ever recall
> seeing a train on it in my lifetime. I've seen a bunch on the Trenton
> Cutoff, though.
> --
> Kevin Hecht
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
mike szilagyi
>
> It has at least two. One is Gravers Rd. in Plymouth Twp., the other is
> County Line Rd. in Bucks and Montco. The former is lightly used, the
> latter is a busy road.
> There used to be a third crossing, Crooked Lane in Upper Merion Twp.
> (King Manor), but that was eliminated about 10 years ago with an
> underpass. The latter was long planned when the Cut-Off was a major
> freight line, but by the time it was finished, that part of the Cut-Off
> was no longer an important CR route.
>
> JH
You're probably thinking of Henderson Road, not Crooked Lane. Crooked
Lane's underpass has been there a long time. Henderson Road carries a
lot of cars and ISTR the impetus to remove that grade crossing was a
tragic collision that killed a family in a car. Ironic that the Cut-off
was downgraded from high-speed freight to occasional switching just as
the expensive new underpass was put in.
<treasured memory> In about 1980 I remember seeing, out the window of a
Norristown-bound Route 100 Bullet car, a brace of three GG1's hauling a
fast Conrail freight eastbound on the Cut-off where it crosses over the
Rt 100, at dusk on a winter weeknight. Those GG1's were _flying_, the
catenary throwing off blue sparks as they roared by. </treasured memory>
--Mike Szilagyi
http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi
ctra...@my-dejanews.com
mc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Yet another question while I am at it...a little bit west
> of paoli, there is a line which leaves the south side of
> the Main Line, and swings *underneath* the main line
> and veers off to the north. When I have seen it, it
> shows signs of being used, but not much. Wierd part
> is that it still had caternary a few years back, and I
> have not figured out where it goes/went and who used
> it. I dont think it was/is part of paoli rail yard - i
> think it was was/is west of the yard. Anyone know?
AFAIK, that _was_ the Paoli Yard. Once Superfund cleanup is done, the former
yard (since replaced by Frazer Yard in 1995) will become part of the new Paoli
Transportation Center, which will include a new station along with improved
parking and surface route (92, 105, 118, 206) access.
Robert Gordon
mc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Yet another question while I am at it...a little bit west
> of paoli, there is a line which leaves the south side of
> the Main Line, and swings *underneath* the main line
> and veers off to the north.
That was a loop track from the yard area to the eastboundlocal track. When I
was a regular commuter at Paoli in
the eighties, many trains would come in service that way.
Many mornings I remember a train of Blues sitting with the
nose of the front car visible, waiting for the passage of the
eastbound Amtrak. Other trains came into service from the yard
via the crossovers west of the station. I guess it depended
on what yard track they were leaving from.
Bob
John Hay
>
> mc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> [...]
> > Yet another question while I am at it...a little bit west
> > of paoli, there is a line which leaves the south side of
> > the Main Line, and swings *underneath* the main line
> > shows signs of being used, but not much. Wierd part
> > is that it still had caternary a few years back, and I
> > have not figured out where it goes/went and who used
> > it. I dont think it was/is part of paoli rail yard - i
> > think it was was/is west of the yard. Anyone know?
>
> see it if driving along W Central Ave in Paoli since it crosses it. The
> line seems to go only about 500-750 feet north of the Central Ave
> overpass - which runs along the north side of Paoli Yard - and then
> abruptly ends. I don't know if it used to go somewhere (though it would
> have had to go almost straight down a steep hill), but I doubt it.
> Perhaps it was used for turnarounds or something similar?
>
> I doubt it's been used since Paoli Yard was abandoned by SEPTA in favor
> of Frazer due to the PCB contamination issues at Paoli, and may not have
> been used for a good while before the yard closure about 2 years ago.
MU turnarounds. It's the Paoli Duckunder, built in 1904 when the Paoli
Locals were still steam. It hasn't been used in at least a decade, as
crossing the "ladder" at Paoli interlocking became a convenient
alternative since the demise of freight on the line and fewer Amtrak
trains. It still features the original 1915 catenary of steel messenger
and bronze auxiliary and trolley wires and hangers (the mainline
catenary was replaced in the 1920s with an all-bronze version due to
corrosion of the steel by steam exhaust).
Dennis Bingham
least that part of it for just such a needed delivery. We discussed this
here I think.
Dennis
Matthew Mitchell wrote:
--
___________________________________________
Dennis
dbin...@ix.netcom.com
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dbingham/index.html
___________________________________________
Dennis Bingham
> a new service Merritt Taylor of Red Arrow (and P&W (now Route 100)) had
> planned to Downingtown, using the two ex-North Shore Electroliners. The
> "Libertyliners" did run between Upper Darby and Norristown until 1976.
>
> Mike Szilagyi
> http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi
Taylor had even bought the crossing gates which after he decided against the
Chester Valley deal, finally ended up on his Route R Ardmore Bus Rd which ran
over the Ardmore Trolley ROW. The other link in his plan was to run the
Liberty Liners down the Market St El to Center City. He couldn't get the city
or PTC to agree to this.
John Hay
>
> > Legend has it that the Chester Valley Branch was the intended route for
> > a new service Merritt Taylor of Red Arrow (and P&W (now Route 100)) had
> > planned to Downingtown, using the two ex-North Shore Electroliners. The
> > "Libertyliners" did run between Upper Darby and Norristown until 1976.
> >
> > Mike Szilagyi
> > http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi
>
> Taylor had even bought the crossing gates which after he decided against the
> Chester Valley deal, finally ended up on his Route R Ardmore Bus Rd which ran
> over the Ardmore Trolley ROW. The other link in his plan was to run the
> Liberty Liners down the Market St El to Center City. He couldn't get the city
> or PTC to agree to this.
How would they have fit on the broad-gauge El? Another rail? And would
the 'Liners have fit in the City Hall loop? They don't need to be
turned, but at the time, it was the only logical place they could have
turned back (the Spring Garden middle track was over a decade in the
future).
Dennis Bingham
shoe road above the third rail and the el's below. I wonder how this wouldv'e been
addressed? I don't know where they would've been turned. If I ever see Ron DeGraw
again I will ask him about this.
Dennis
John Hay wrote:
--
m greene
>Yes John, the plan called for a another rail,,, Come to think of it, The liners
>shoe road above the third rail and the el's below. I wonder how this wouldv'e been
>addressed? I don't know where they would've been turned. If I ever see Ron DeGraw
>again I will ask him about this.
That would have been a feat, though still a doable one, even then, not
counting the fact that there would have had to be a dual-gage set-up.
However, PTC also felt that a P&W-Market Street service would have
robbed a number of needed schedule paths from Frankford services, so
this was never pursued. Also, the Libertyliners would have been able
to run in the Market Street tunnel, assuming the track gage problem
was solved. The 'Liners did run on the Loop in Chicago, which also
has tight platform clearances.
Later
Michael T. Greene