Nice Newsgroup
Stephanie Winters
I haven't been to this newsgroup in a while, but i do have to admit this
is one of Philly's best newsgroups. Very knowledgeable people, and very
informative discussions about transportation and the area. transportation
and parking is a fun issue to discuss! And once you get to know the area,
it is so fun. there are so many malls here (Plymouth Meeting, King of
Prussia, Granite Run, Springfield, Christiana, Concord, Deptford, etc.
Franklin Mills is nice, but i try to avoid this one because of the 7%
tax), and traffic really isn't that bad. I like 476 because at just about
every exit there is a mall. I took 76 the other day at 5:30 from the Gulph
Road exit westbound to King of Prussia, and i literally breezed through
until i got to the KOP exit where they had construction. and the other day
i took 76 eastbound into Philly from Gladwyne at 4 or 4:30 PM, and it was
clear sailing all the way. For a year i have avoided 76 at rush hour
because of rumors of traffic, but from my experience, there is no traffic!
For a city of its size, i have concluded Philly has few traffic problems,
and not too much crime. I mean the streets of boston are always clogged up
at rush hour, but you can cruise down Walnut with no problem here! And
it's safe to walk on the streets here at any hour of the night. I will
soon attempt to drive to Philly at 5 or 5:30 PM on 76. i know traffic
isn't perfect, but it really isn't too bad either, mostly just bad around
the exits to the highway..
Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
available free parking around the mall.
Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
And is it Strauss Discount Auto, or R & S Strauss? thanks
George Robbins
>
>Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
>Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
>to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
>when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
>with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
>available free parking around the mall.
You are sick! 8-)
Malls are everywhere, in each direction out in the suburbs, some of
them are (relatively) dinky and aging, some quite large and expanding.
There's also a lot of more recent devlopment in the area of Stip Malls,
i.e. shopping centers with mostly "name" stores and maybe a big grocery
store, and maybe a big deapartment store anchor.
This really isn't the right group for that, I could try to list them
but it would get long and I'd miss a lot.
North of Philly you have Oxford Valley Mall, Franklin Mills, and
Mongomery Mall, west you have King of Prussia, south you have Granite
Run, for the biggest ones.
--
George Robbins - now working for work: g...@netaxs.com
Net Access - seemed like the best uucp: ...!uunet!netaxs.com!grr
way to help improve service... play: g...@tharsis.com
Karen Byrd
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
It's now Strawbridge's. Strawbridge and Clothier was a local department
store chain owned and operated by the Strawbridge and Clothier
families until they sold the stores to the May Co. a few years
ago. The May Co. also bought out Woodward and Lothrup which owned
the John Wanamaker stores. The May Co. runs the Lord and Taylor stores.
The Wanamaker Building(it was the Wanamaker flagship store) at 13th and
Market is now a Lord and Taylor's because of the latter deal.
Strawbridge and Clothier and Wanamaker's got their start right after
the Civil War.
--
Karen Byrd
sycamore
> Franklin Mills is nice, but i try to avoid this one because of the 7%
> tax), and traffic really isn't that bad.
But if you're buying clothing, the 7% tax is a non-issue. Not to mention, the
sales tax at other malls in PA can't be much lower than here in the city.
> I will
> soon attempt to drive to Philly at 5 or 5:30 PM on 76. i know traffic
> isn't perfect, but it really isn't too bad either, mostly just bad around
> the exits to the highway..
76 East can be tough after 5pm. I take 76 East to the Boulevard every
evening. If I hop on 76 right at 5, it's not too bad. Between 5:30 and 6:30,
it can get a bit backed up around 476, the curve, and the Green Lane/Belmont
Ave. exit. Overall though, traffic here is relatively mild.
> Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
> Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
> to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
> when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
> with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
> available free parking around the mall.
There is Neshaminy Mall in Trevose (Rt. 1 north of the PA Turnpike), Oxford
Valley Mall in Langhorne (Rt. 1 north of I-95), Willow Grove Mall in Willow
Grove (along PA-611), and the Brandywine Mall in Brandywine, DE (on US 202,
north of I-95). Although it is technically a strip mall, there is also the
Roosevelt Mall at Roosevelt and Cottman in the Northeast. (It has a
Strawbridge's and stores that you would generally find in a mall. I don't
believe Sears is considered part of the mall, but it is about 2 blocks away at
Cottman and Rising Sun.)
> Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
Karen nailed this one. May Co. tends to have a department store chain in
almost every major city: Here, it's now Strawbridge's. St. Louis has
Famous-Barr. Baltimore-Washington has Hecht's. Boston has Filene's.
California has Robinson's-May. I believe Pittsburgh has Kaufmann's. (And
there are several more.) And they're all just about the same in terms of what
they look like and what they carry, but they are nice stores.
--
Sycamore--Pitying the fools
Sycamoreland--http://syc75.tripod.com
ICQ--7810696
The Cellar--Because you need brain food on the internet
http://www.cellar.org
Exile on Market Street
<sy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> There is Neshaminy Mall in Trevose (Rt. 1 north of the PA Turnpike), Oxford
> Valley Mall in Langhorne (Rt. 1 north of I-95), Willow Grove Mall in Willow
> Grove (along PA-611), and the Brandywine Mall in Brandywine, DE (on US 202,
> north of I-95).
A good bit north of it. It's only a mile or two from the PA line.
And since we're doing Delaware, don't forget the Christiana Mall at I-95
and DE 1.
> > Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
>
> Karen nailed this one. May Co. tends to have a department store chain in
> almost every major city: Here, it's now Strawbridge's. St. Louis has
> Famous-Barr.
Prior to the purchase of Associated Dry Goods (Lord & Taylor), this was
May's flagship store. It's still the company's hometown store, as May
Department Stores headquarters remain in St. Louis.
> Baltimore-Washington has Hecht's.
Operationally speaking, Strawbridge's and Hecht's are one -- May put the
former Wanamakers stores into its Hecht's division when it bought that
chain's parent, and did the same with the former S&C stores, but --
remembering the reaction it got when it took the Wanamaker name off those
stores -- decided to keep the Strawbridge name.
And this is where it gets a little more confusing. All the former
Wanamaker stores May still operates are signed as Strawbridge's, because
the company had to put new signage on those. But they did not bother
changing the signage on the former S&C stores (perhaps in tribute to
Stockton?), so those stores still bear signs reading "Strawbridge &
Clothier" along with the well-known S&C seal.
--
Sandy Smith, University Relations / 215.898.1423 / smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Managing Editor, _Pennsylvania Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team -- Web Editor webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"That Tony Lombardo guy that you share your life with -- is he homosexual
too?"
--Late former mayor and talk-show host Frank Rizzo, to _Philadelphia Gay
News_ publisher Mark Segal on the first night of Rizzo's talk show
---------------------------(as reported in Segal's _PGN_ column 8/3/01)--
Creighton Rabs
> Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
> Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
> to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
> when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
> with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
> available free parking around the mall.
North of Philadelphia: Oxford Valley, Neshaminy , Willow Grove Park,
Montgomery, and Plymouth Meeting
West of Philadelphia: Exton Square Mall, Coventry Mall (just south of
Pottstown), Granite Run, Springfield, and King of Prussia (highly
over-rated, if you ask me). Note that even though it's called a
"mall", I didn't include MacDade Mall, because it's not really much of
a mall (unless you consider Acme an anchor store). BTW, any
discussion about malls that doesn't include Exton Square is not really
a discussion at all...
South Jersey: Burlington Center, Cherry Hill, Deptford, Eschelon,
Moorestown
Delaware: Concord Mall, Christiana Mall
Creighton Rabs
> and the Brandywine Mall in Brandywine, DE (on US 202, north of I-95).
You must be thinking of Concord Mall; there is a complex known as
Brandywine Towne Center, but that's more along the lines of a larger
strip mall complex (ie. Metroplex in Plymouth Twp and Whiteland Towne
Center in Exton).
John Hogan
>
> Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
> Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
> to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
> when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
> with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
> available free parking around the mall.
Check it out: <http://www.icsc.org/dmm/dmm.html>
Search the Phila, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area.
John Hogan
Biddle Law Library/AFSCME Local 590
sycamore
> Prior to the purchase of Associated Dry Goods (Lord & Taylor), this was
> May's flagship store. It's still the company's hometown store, as May
> Department Stores headquarters remain in St. Louis.
Absolutely...my mother worked for May for 6 years...the discount at Famous-Barr
was nice. I used to love going to the main F-B store downtown when I lived
there...it had 10 floors at one point, but I think they only use 6 or 7 now. It
had that "department store" feel as opposed to the "mall" feeling (although that
store is actually part of the St. Louis Centre mall now).
> Operationally speaking, Strawbridge's and Hecht's are one -- May put the
> former Wanamakers stores into its Hecht's division when it bought that
> chain's parent, and did the same with the former S&C stores, but --
> remembering the reaction it got when it took the Wanamaker name off those
> stores -- decided to keep the Strawbridge name.
I believe L.S. Ayres (Indianapolis) is lumped into the F-B division.
You would think that all of them being part of the same company, they would have
one generic credit card. But no...when I started shopping at Hecht's, I had to
kill the F-B card and get a Hecht's card. But if what you say is true Sandy,
then I may not have to switch cards again. F-B cards can be used at L.S. Ayres
and vice versa. So I wonder if that's true for Hecht's and Strawbridge's as
well.
> And this is where it gets a little more confusing. All the former
> Wanamaker stores May still operates are signed as Strawbridge's, because
> the company had to put new signage on those. But they did not bother
> changing the signage on the former S&C stores (perhaps in tribute to
> Stockton?), so those stores still bear signs reading "Strawbridge &
> Clothier" along with the well-known S&C seal.
The store at Brandywine is like that...I've seen it at another mall, but can't
remember which one.
sycamore
> You must be thinking of Concord Mall; there is a complex known as
> Brandywine Towne Center, but that's more along the lines of a larger
> strip mall complex (ie. Metroplex in Plymouth Twp and Whiteland Towne
> Center in Exton).
Yes! That's it...for some reason, I kept thinking it was called Brandywine for some reason. I
just drove by it for the first time the other night when I was going to buy Powerball tix.
So, correction: There is the Concord Mall along US 202, just south of the PA/DE border.
--
Sycamore--I firmly believe that Gary Sinise should
legally change his name to "The Evil Gary Sinise" and
trademark it.
Stephanie Winters
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, George Robbins wrote:
> North of Philly you have Oxford Valley Mall, Franklin Mills, and
> Mongomery Mall, west you have King of Prussia, south you have Granite
> Run, for the biggest ones.
>
Yes, i have been searching for this Montgomery mall for a while. Everyone
tells me how nice Montgomeryville is, with a lot of stores. I live in
Montgomery county, but, surprisingly, haven't run into Montgomeryville
yet, which must be Montgomery County's major town. guess i will have to
get out the old map and plot a route!
but i'm surprised how big Montgomery Co. is! I was looking for a storage
place one time, and the operator at the national office found one in the
same 610 area code where i live with a great rate, so i got excited. turns
out, this place was White Hall, i believe. I called the local office, and
the person said she was a long way away from Lower Merion. This goes to
show you how big the 610 area code can be.
Tony Shepps
>North of Philadelphia:
>West of Philadelphia:
>South Jersey:
>Delaware:
And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
warehouse?
--
Philly's virtual community since 1990: The Cellar - cellar.org
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Stephanie Winters
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
> Stephanie Winters wrote:
>
> > Franklin Mills is nice, but i try to avoid this one because of the 7%
> > tax), and traffic really isn't that bad.
>
> But if you're buying clothing, the 7% tax is a non-issue. Not to mention, the
> sales tax at other malls in PA can't be much lower than here in the city.
Thanks sycamore! I had forgotten PA does not have tax on clothing.
Speaking of this, i really have to recommend going to Delaware for those
of you who don't go regularly. first of all, right across the border, they
have plenty of malls, stores, restaurants, etc. then, there is no sales
tax, snack tax, or restaurant tax!!!!!
I went to Lowes in Talleyville/Wilmington to buy an air conditioner. The
price tag said $298. when i got to the cash register, and the cashier
said "$298", i was stunned momentarily, because i was expecting it to be
$300 something when tax was added.
you might not think that 6% savings is a lot, but if you spend $500-$1,000
a week, as i do as part of my business, the savings add up really fast.
Plus, they have bottle deposits, which forces you to return your bottles
for the $.05! When i lived in New England, i always kept bags of bottles in
my trunk so i would have them when i ended up at a grocery store. since i
have been in Philly, i have gotten out of this habit. Now i have to start
collecting bottles again in my trunk. indeed PA is the first state that i
have lived in that does not have a bottle deposit. In NY, VT, MA, and ME
they have bottle deposits. Maybe PA will institute one some day, and this
will allow the homeless to have an income, and will help with recycling.
And there are so many people in Delaware that you never feel lonely. I
think many of them are from Pennsylvania, and come to Delaware to shop. I
first thought Delaware would be a desolate state, since it is so small. But
i have learned otherwise since. Delaware is a lively, thriving, bustling
suburb of Philly, or at least wilmington and Newark are. Indeed, whether
you live in KOP, Abington, or christiana, we are all Philadelphians, as
was posted here a few months ago by someone.
Plus there is this incredible grocery store in Delaware called "Super G".
i have never seen one of these in PA.
The only bad thing about Delaware is that there are no Walgreens and no
Big Lots (only NJ in this area has Big Lots). I found gas the other day in
Newark for $1.25 a gallon!!!!
also, SEPTA services delaware. I know because i saw a bus stop that said
SEPTA somewhere in Wilmington!! So SEPTA must really be a large regional
transportation system that services PA, parts of NJ, and DE.
Stephanie Winters
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
>
> evening. If I hop on 76 right at 5, it's not too bad. Between 5:30 and 6:30,
> it can get a bit backed up around 476, the curve, and the Green Lane/Belmont
> Ave. exit. Overall though, traffic here is relatively mild.
>
this is sooo true! compared to Boston, Chicago, and NY, traffic is a
breeze here, i have come to learn! One reason is because people are so
spread out. they live in Springfield, Philly, NE Philly, Bensalem, KOP,
etc. In furtherance of this goal, one thing i would like to see is the
elimination of the barrier that separates NJ and PA. This $3.00 toll
deters many people, including myself, from visiting NJ, and vice-versa. i
would love to go to Cherry Hill and Deptford more often, but don't because
of this toll (NJ is so cool, and New Jerseyians have a smart sophistication
about them). there is the potential for developing one community, one
Philadelphia, a Philadelphia that encompasses not only the western,
northern, and southern suburbs, but also the eastern part. indeed Philly
has the potential of being a giant megalopolis. But it doesn't realize
that full potential. Right now, i would venture to say New Jerseyians feel
excluded from Philadelphia. Is it not arrogant of Pennsylvania to charge
New Jerseyians a tariff to be allowed to come and visit all the Philly has
to offer? I mean, they don't charge a toll for us to visit them. They are
forced to pay to get in. this could be considered reminiscent of voting
poll taxes that were levied agains African Americans in the olden days.
We are all one community, and this toll is a force which divides two great
cities: Philly and Camden. Let us tear down this wall once and for all.
Oh, and btw, the people using the high-speed line into PA also pay this
toll, it's just disguised as part of the fare. Imagine the benefits that
would accrue to both NJ and PA if this barrier were removed. These
benefits, I venture, would far outweigh any lost toll revenues.
Plus Philadelphians are among the kindest people in the country! Just ask
anyone for directions, or where the nearest Best Buy is and they'll be glad
to help you.
Sorry for this long excursus.
Stephanie Winters
On 24 Aug 2001, Tony Shepps wrote:
> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
> warehouse?
hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there. National
companies, and national franchises--i like these concepts. If i go into a
Burger King, i can expect the same menu and pricing, for the most part,
anywhere i go. I like to know what i can expect, and having things
identical like this makes me happy. For example, Lowes tends to build in
the same malls with Target Greatland and Old Navy and dicks. thus, i know
chances are wherever there is a Lowes, there will be a Target!!!!
One thing i love about Philly is the wonderful thing called I-476. At
every exit, just about, there is a mall:
Exit 2/3: Springfield Mall
Exit 4: Granite Run Mall
Exit 6 to I-76 west: King of Prussia Mall!!!!!!!!! (which is rumored to be
the nation's largest mall)
Exit 7/8: Plymouth Meeting Mall and Chemical Road stores (including Lowes,
Target, Old Navy, giant, and Dicks)
The only disapointment in this is Exit 5: Villanova/St. David's. No malls,
and a lot of congestion. And super small stores:
Staples-Narberth: small
Staples-Bryn Mawr: small, limited parking
Acme-Bryn Mawr: small
Acme-Haverford: small, limited parking
Super Fresh-Wynnewood: small
USPS-Haverford-no parking, except on street
thankfully, Genuardi's has opened up in Wynnewood. Now people in this area
have a large store to shop at. Pet peeve: parking lot is slanted. Try
leaving a grocery cart there, and it begins to roll--fast!!
indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike other
suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so congested, and
there is so little parking. I don't understand this, since suburbs are
usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in this area, but it
just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such potential, but it is
not fully realized. Why didn't the people who developed Lower Merion do it
the same way the people who developed KOP did? Spacious, with lots of
shopping centers. And i wish there were a Route 30 bypass to help with
congestion. Montgomery Ave has potential, but there need to be better
connectors.
Stephanie Winters
thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure if they were one or two
different stores. For example, in Mass., there is a filene's and a
filene's basement. But they are not the same store!! and filene's basement
has now gone out of business.
One thing i like about Philly, is that malls
have numerous anchor stores, Strawbridge's being one of them. In Other
cities, like Rochester, or Portland, there are only 4 anchor/department
stores per mall:
Rochester: JC Penney, Sears, McCurdy's, Kaufmans
Portland: Macy's, Filene's, Sears, JC Penney
But in Philly, there are so many stores worthy of being an anchor store:
JC Penney, Sears, Strawbrigde's, Lord & Taylor, Bloomingdales, Neiman
Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's
Stephanie Winters
Hi, i did something for the first time ever today. I had to get to Best
Buy in NE Philly. So i decided my best bet was to take Route 1/Roosevelt
Blvd north. Well, to say the least, this trip was amazing! Never before
have i seen such a wondrous site. This road has 5 lanes each way, with a
boulevard that serves as a park in between!! this boulevard park is super
wide, wide enough so you can play football games on it or have a picnic!
This is so beautiful. Dogs were walking, people were strolling. This is
one of Philly's best parks, if not the best. Ben Franklin was super smart
when he designed this park/area. what a wonderful combination of homes,
stores, and parks!! traffic flowed smoothly, every store possible was
there, the weather was beautiful.
This is the famous US Route 1, which is arguably america's most well known
highway. But no other town has designed Route 1 like Philly. i mean just
compare this to Boston's Route 1, and you'll see what i mean. Boston Route
1 from Danvers to Boston is fast, but horrible, as there are concrete
barriers dividing both sides, and you have to make u-turns to get to
anywhere, and drivers are nuts. This contrast with Philly's route 1 which
is beautiful, so pleasant, so scenic. This is an ideal community. 5 lanes
each way--now that's smart.
I nominate Roosevelt Blvd as the heart and soul of Philly. Roads and
streets are what defines a city, and Roosevelt Blvd does this perfectly
for Philly. forget about Broad St. or Market. In fact, i would venture to
say that the boulevard is philly's longest street, and you can see more
of Philly while traveling on Roosevelt than any other street. It divides
the city in two. It is Philly par excellence.
I have never felt such a rush since i visited cherry Hill last year.
No one is a true Philadelphian until they have visited Roosevelt Blvd!!
Also, Rt. 1 is like a lifeline for the east coast. it's like "Hands Across
America". Touch route 1, and you will be instantaneously connected with
people in florida and Maine! Philly and florida are so far apart, yet they
share this common bond.
Stephanie Winters
Stephanie Winters
Stephanie Winters
I don't know how this message appeared 5 times or whatever. I sent it
through my ng reader pine via telnet, and it didn't appear. So i sent it a
few more times, and it still didn't appear until i sent it through Outlook
Express. But then all of a sudden, it has now appeared 5 times. and i
don't know how to cancel a message on pine.
Stephanie Winters
Please note that the last of the new 6 original messages i posted
(Roosevelt Blvd = Heart of Philly) is the final draft. The first 5 are
different from the 6th one. I wish i knew how to delete messages on pine.
Matthew Mitchell
g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) wrote:
>There's also a lot of more recent devlopment in the area of Stip Malls,
>i.e. shopping centers with mostly "name" stores and maybe a big grocery
>store, and maybe a big deapartment store anchor.
To be precise, the kind of center you are talking about is known as a
"power center" or something like that (see the Metroplex in Plymouth
Meeting for one of the most egregious examples--there are people who would
drive from one store to the next, it's so big and people are so unused to
walking. A strip mall is a linear property with small stores (nothing
bigger than a small supermarket) facing the street and parking between the
street and the stores.
Strip malls are c. 1960s design, and are today a pretty good example of
"throwaway design." You see a lot of dying strip malls with vacant
properties these days.
http://www.agimmobilier.com/resource-center/property-definitions.htm#Retail
Matthew Mitchell
>Karen nailed this one. May Co. tends to have a department store chain in
>almost every major city: Here, it's now Strawbridge's. St. Louis has
>Famous-Barr. Baltimore-Washington has Hecht's.
As I understand it, Strawbridges and Hecht's share management, and
Strawbridges stores are Hecht's in all but name.
George Robbins
>Creighton Rabs wrote:
>
>> You must be thinking of Concord Mall; there is a complex known as
>> Brandywine Towne Center, but that's more along the lines of a larger
>> strip mall complex (ie. Metroplex in Plymouth Twp and Whiteland Towne
>> Center in Exton).
>
>Yes! That's it...for some reason, I kept thinking it was called Brandywine for some reason. I
>just drove by it for the first time the other night when I was going to buy Powerball tix.
>
>So, correction: There is the Concord Mall along US 202, just south of the PA/DE border.
Concord Mall is the original, since it was he Almart Store that got a Mall
glued onto the northern end. It's gone thru several phases of re-development
incuding extension, anchor stores tacked on the end, then the side and then
the middle and finally replacement of the original Almart building with a
Sears store. Sort of amazing considering there's a housing development right
behind it and other retail on either side, rather constraining the availabe
space, at least until the Pathmark/Borders/Theater clump is absorbed.
There are actually 3-5 "new" strip malls along there, depending on how
you want to count, a mega-strip at the old Brandywine Racetrack, one
one the west side just before Concord Mall, one on the East side further
up towards Silverside Rd. You also have a food court, the original
Silverside and Fairfax shopping centers, etc... Other bits being
paved over or redeveloped daily.
I gotta confess I liked it better when it was the Tally Ho, a gas station
(Sinclair?), Simpsons Hobbies and Linwathes Ice Cream Farm, and then not
much till you got to the Charcoal Pit, but I somehow or other the 60's are
now a long time ago, and there are a lot more jobs than when Delaware
mostly worked for DuPont.
George Robbins
>
>On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
>
>> Stephanie Winters wrote:
>>
>> > Franklin Mills is nice, but i try to avoid this one because of the 7%
>> > tax), and traffic really isn't that bad.
>>
>> But if you're buying clothing, the 7% tax is a non-issue. Not to mention, the
>> sales tax at other malls in PA can't be much lower than here in the city.
>
>Thanks sycamore! I had forgotten PA does not have tax on clothing.
>Speaking of this, i really have to recommend going to Delaware for those
>of you who don't go regularly. first of all, right across the border, they
>have plenty of malls, stores, restaurants, etc. then, there is no sales
>tax, snack tax, or restaurant tax!!!!!
>And there are so many people in Delaware that you never feel lonely. I
>think many of them are from Pennsylvania, and come to Delaware to shop. I
>first thought Delaware would be a desolate state, since it is so small. But
>i have learned otherwise since. Delaware is a lively, thriving, bustling
>suburb of Philly, or at least wilmington and Newark are. Indeed, whether
>you live in KOP, Abington, or christiana, we are all Philadelphians, as
>was posted here a few months ago by someone.
ARGH!!!
You put your foot in it there, Delaware is **NOT** a suburb of Philly,
though it may eventually become a part of the DC->NY megapolis. 8-(
Wilmington is more of an nearby city, like Reading or Trenton, people
who live in the Wilmington area may go to the Spectrum for concerts
or sports, but the vast majority don't go to Philly on a weekly or
even monthy basis. SEPTA gets there, but the service is only a
shadow of what the Pennsylvania RR provided before someone put a
"different public agencies" gap at the state line.
Newark is entirely discrete from Wilmington, orginally a college town,
but with it's own automobile plant, and DuPont facilities. People in
Newark feel even less connection with Philly, possibly becuase of the
transportation issues. Admittely, everything in between Wilmginton
and Newark is getting pretty well suburbanized by people who aren't
sure where they live, but people who live in either don't think of
Wilmington and Newark being parts of the same place.
If SEPTA/DART could get their act together, and possibly extend
cheap (i.e. non-Amtrak pricing) serivce to Elkton and Baltimore,
then there might be more job vs. home cross-over, though you miss
the Concord Pike / North Wilmington commerical area altogether,
and miss Christana and downtown Newark on the other.
>Plus there is this incredible grocery store in Delaware called "Super G".
>i have never seen one of these in PA.
Yeech. Big fails to equate more variety (also the Mall dilemma), and
that store looks big but is very shall. I think Pathmark actually had
more stuff. Super G and Giant (like the one in the Plymouth Twp) are
the same thing, lots of them as you head toward DC.
I acutally go to the Giant mentioned a lot, it's convenient and has
good donuts (make their own, not Krispy-Kreme crap), but in order of
preference for local stores, it's Clemmons, Acme, and Genaurdi's,
each has some areas that they do better, but the stocking is about 95%
the same everywhere. Plus, Yuppie watching at Genaurdi's is always
amusing.
>The only bad thing about Delaware is that there are no Walgreens and no
>Big Lots (only NJ in this area has Big Lots). I found gas the other day in
>Newark for $1.25 a gallon!!!!
Nah, the bad thing is that there are traffic light every few feet and
too many "PA drivers". 8-) I had to move to, yeech, PA to avoid this.
>also, SEPTA services delaware. I know because i saw a bus stop that said
>SEPTA somewhere in Wilmington!! So SEPTA must really be a large regional
>transportation system that services PA, parts of NJ, and DE.
SEPTA Regional Rail service extends to Claymont and Wilmington courtesy
of a cost-sharing agreemtent with DART, Delaware's transit agency. It
used to be all one system with frequent commuter daily, commuter service,
when SEPTA took over, I-95 and then I-295 were there, and the economic
base had shifted away from downtown Wilmington and the older suburban
development along the Delaware River/Philadelphia Pike corridor, so
Delawae had not great interest in ponying up for rail Service to Philly.
SEPTA cut back service to the State line, making Marcus Hook the effecive
end of the line, there were previously stations at Naamans, Claymont,
Bellvue, Edgemoor and Wilmington, plus earlier (local, but not really
commuter) service to Newport and Newark, etc.
The "SEPTA" stations are Claymont (near Tri-State Mall), Wilmington
(at the Christiana River waterfront, at the far end of town from the
main Business center), Church Crossing (near the old Delaware Park
Racetrack and Christiana Mall) and Newark (at the western edge of
town), midway between Main Street and the UfoD Fieldhouse.
There isn't really any connecting bus service, Delaware is at ouside
of effective Bus travel times, historically in addition to railroads
(Pennsy, B&O) both did Wilmington<->Philly, Reading served both but
no thru service), there were Trolley connections to Chester and then
"Short Line" bus service to West Chester.
George Robbins
>
>> North of Philly you have Oxford Valley Mall, Franklin Mills, and
>> Mongomery Mall, west you have King of Prussia, south you have Granite
>> Run, for the biggest ones.
>>
>
>Yes, i have been searching for this Montgomery mall for a while. Everyone
>tells me how nice Montgomeryville is, with a lot of stores. I live in
>Montgomery county, but, surprisingly, haven't run into Montgomeryville
>yet, which must be Montgomery County's major town. guess i will have to
>get out the old map and plot a route!
Not really, Mongomeryville is just the interesection of Rt 309 and US 202,
give or take, Norristown, Pottstown and Lansdale are bigger. In reality
this location represents a good crossroads for commerical development
along the 309 Corridor from Philly up to Quakertown, the Mall "draws"
from Cheltenham, Landale, Ambler and residential development along the
corridor.
>but i'm surprised how big Montgomery Co. is! I was looking for a storage
>place one time, and the operator at the national office found one in the
>same 610 area code where i live with a great rate, so i got excited. turns
>out, this place was White Hall, i believe. I called the local office, and
>the person said she was a long way away from Lower Merion. This goes to
>show you how big the 610 area code can be.
610 used to be "everything but Philly", still the counties include quite
a bit of diversity. 8-)
George Robbins
>
>> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
>> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
>> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
>> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
>> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
>> warehouse?
>
>
>hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
>contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
>when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
>by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there. National
>companies, and national franchises--i like these concepts. If i go into a
>Burger King, i can expect the same menu and pricing, for the most part,
>anywhere i go. I like to know what i can expect, and having things
>identical like this makes me happy. For example, Lowes tends to build in
>the same malls with Target Greatland and Old Navy and dicks. thus, i know
>chances are wherever there is a Lowes, there will be a Target!!!!
Well, it's the american way and all that, someday you may start to count
up the cost of having dozens of repitions of the same stores in a area
vs dozens of different stores. Basically it's a very bad thing in many
ways a good think in others.
>indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike other
>suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so congested, and
>there is so little parking. I don't understand this, since suburbs are
>usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in this area, but it
>just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such potential, but it is
>not fully realized. Why didn't the people who developed Lower Merion do it
>the same way the people who developed KOP did? Spacious, with lots of
>shopping centers. And i wish there were a Route 30 bypass to help with
>congestion. Montgomery Ave has potential, but there need to be better
>connectors.
Lower Merion suburban developent 1885-1925, what you're thinking of
is Post-Levittown, post WW-II suburban development where the automoblile
rather than public transit defined acceptable distances and sprawl.
George Robbins
>In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>, Stephanie Winters wrote:
>>Why didn't the people who developed Lower Merion do it
>>the same way the people who developed KOP did? Spacious, with lots of
>>shopping centers. And i wish there were a Route 30 bypass to help with
>>congestion. Montgomery Ave has potential, but there need to be better
>>connectors.
I kinda forgot to mention this, but if you look at your map, there's
this thing called the Schulkill Expressway, that run thru lower merion,
and strangely enough it's really the Rt 30 bypass thru that area.
King of Prussia, was essentially farmland until the aformentioned expressway
made an interesting intersection with it there in the 50's, open farmland
is easy meat for the post WW-II suburban sprawl that you idolize.
US202 from West Chester to King of Prussia to Paoli is largely a new line
on the map to off-load Rt 100 as the main route north of West Chester, and
then a Rt 30 bypass from the Paoli to the King of Prussia area.
You're drawing a lot of superficial conclusions in ignorace of the actual
trasnportation and (sub-)urban development over the past 10-25-50-100
years, never mind the couple of hundred before that. I suggest when you
look at something say "how old is this". Even the crappiest parts of the
area have several hundred yars of being Pennsylvania, even the shiniest
new suburban townhouse or mall is sitting on top of several iterations
of "used to be part of" in different historical context.
Yes, there was no more boring class back in school than your own
state history, but it's not exactly a closed book from there...
sycamore
> IAs I understand it, Strawbridges and Hecht's share management, and
> Strawbridges stores are Hecht's in all but name.
That's what Sandy said. Truth be told, they're almost all the same. Having
been to Famous-Barr, L.S. Ayres, Hecht's, and Strawbridge's, they are
essentially all alike. From the signing in the stores, to their commercials,
to their websites...essentially a carbon copy. But as of a year ago, their
credit cards were not interchangable (I had to get a Hecht's card and destroy
my F-B card when I moved to DC).
The funny thing is, if you go to May Co's main website, you have the option to
shop. They ask you to select a store...like it really matters! Not to
mention, online, they accept any May Co's credit card. Strange...
sycamore
> Hi, i did something for the first time ever today. I had to get to Best
> Buy in NE Philly. So i decided my best bet was to take Route 1/Roosevelt
> Blvd north. Well, to say the least, this trip was amazing! Never before
> have i seen such a wondrous site. This road has 5 lanes each way, with a
> boulevard that serves as a park in between!! this boulevard park is super
> wide, wide enough so you can play football games on it or have a picnic!
> This is so beautiful. Dogs were walking, people were strolling. This is
> one of Philly's best parks, if not the best.
I love driving the Boulevard every day, particularly the stretch between Rhawn
Street and Grant Ave...it's just sickeningly pleasant.
> Ben Franklin was super smart
> when he designed this park/area. what a wonderful combination of homes,
> stores, and parks!! traffic flowed smoothly, every store possible was
> there, the weather was beautiful.
Actually, this is one of the newest parts of the city. Back in the day, much
of what is now NE Philadelphia was part of Philadelphia County, but not
actually part of the city.
> This is the famous US Route 1, which is arguably america's most well known
> highway. But no other town has designed Route 1 like Philly. i mean just
> compare this to Boston's Route 1, and you'll see what i mean. Boston Route
> 1 from Danvers to Boston is fast, but horrible, as there are concrete
> barriers dividing both sides, and you have to make u-turns to get to
> anywhere, and drivers are nuts. This contrast with Philly's route 1 which
> is beautiful, so pleasant, so scenic. This is an ideal community. 5 lanes
> each way--now that's smart.
Route 1 runs right past the US Capitol in DC...I used to live right off it
when I lived in the suburbs. I must say though, I've driven a big chunk of
Route 1 between Boston and Northern Virginia, and Philadelphia's section seems
to be the nicest.
> I nominate Roosevelt Blvd as the heart and soul of Philly. Roads and
> streets are what defines a city, and Roosevelt Blvd does this perfectly
> for Philly. forget about Broad St. or Market. In fact, i would venture to
> say that the boulevard is philly's longest street, and you can see more
> of Philly while traveling on Roosevelt than any other street. It divides
> the city in two. It is Philly par excellence.
The Boulevard is nice, but I believe Broad Street is the longest street in the
city, not to mention the straightest urban street in the world. I think Broad
Street shows the city's character, from North Philly to South Philly. But you
may be right in that the Boulevard shows the very best and the very worst of
the city of Philadelphia.
--
Sycamore--I firmly believe that Gary Sinise should
legally change his name to "The Evil Gary Sinise" and
trademark it.
Sycamoreland--http://syc75.tripod.com
Matthew Mitchell
g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) wrote:
>Not really, Mongomeryville is just the interesection of Rt 309 and US 202,
>give or take, Norristown, Pottstown and Lansdale are bigger.
Really, Montgomeryville is a monument to sprawl, including near-abandoned
strip centers made obsolete by the opening of power centers up the road a
piece. Fortunately, I rarely have to go up there during peak hours moring
or evening or on Saturday mornings--just trips to the ice rink at odd
hours.
Matthew Mitchell
g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) wrote:
>SEPTA gets there, but the service is only a
>shadow of what the Pennsylvania RR provided before someone put a
>"different public agencies" gap at the state line.
Stephanie wrote:
>>Plus there is this incredible grocery store in Delaware called "Super G".
>>i have never seen one of these in PA.
They did open stores in Pennsylvania four years or so ago. They then were
sold as a result of some merger. As mentioned before, this is the Giant
Food Co. that operates in the Washington area, but since there's already a
grocery company named Giant in Pennsylvania (IIRC, they're based in
Carlisle), the Pennsylvania/New Jersey/Delaware stores are called "Super
G."
The Pennsylvania Giant is the only chain I know of in the area to offer
self-service checkout. I don't do much shopping there at all, so I can't
say if it's a net plus or minus to the consumer.
Matthew Mitchell
>>indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike other
>>suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so congested, and
>>there is so little parking. I don't understand this, since suburbs are
>>usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in this area, but it
>>just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such potential, but it is
>>not fully realized. Why didn't the people who developed Lower Merion do it
>>the same way the people who developed KOP did? Spacious, with lots of
>>shopping centers.
I suspect the folks who live there think its potential is realized just
fine, and the home values speak to that. Granted there is little of the
$600,000 new construction McMansions on 1/2 acre lots, but instead there
are places you can go where you _don't_ have to get into and park the car,
and there are places where empty-nesters, students, and other folks with
differing housing needs can live.
sycamore
> (NJ is so cool, and New Jerseyians have a smart sophistication
> about them).
Uh oh...Stephanie, how long have you been here going to Penn? ;-)
I must admit that New Jersey, at least South Jersey, is not as bad as I initially
thought. But North Jersey is just hell...driving the NJTP from Trenton
forward...it's like driving to the center of hell.
You never have to pay to visit Jersey...just to leave.
The tolls on the biggest bridges (Franklin, Whitman) are collected by the Delaware
River Port Authority, which helps them to pay for upgrades and maintenance of both
the bridges and PATCO. A lot of that money comes back into Philadelphia (e.g. their
part of the Penn's Landing project).
Camden, while improving, is still a toilet...and it will take many more years (and
less corruption) for it to truly improve. It is New Jersey's poorest city.
And if you want to save a dollar, take the Tacony bridge.
sycamore
> The Pennsylvania Giant is the only chain I know of in the area to offer
> self-service checkout. I don't do much shopping there at all, so I can't
> say if it's a net plus or minus to the consumer.
Some of the Super Fresh stores have now installed self-service checkouts,
including Franklin Mills. I generally don't shop there much though b/c they
seem to be the most expensive store in the city.
Stephanie Winters
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Matthew Mitchell wrote:
>
> The Pennsylvania Giant is the only chain I know of in the area to offer
> self-service checkout. I don't do much shopping there at all, so I can't
> say if it's a net plus or minus to the consumer.
>
Oh....i was just in a grocery store the other day in the suburbs of Phully
that had self-service checkout, and it wasn't giant. I think it might have
been the ACME in KOP on 202, but i might be wrong. Now you've got me
wracking my brain.
Stephanie Winters
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
> Some of the Super Fresh stores have now installed self-service checkouts,
> including Franklin Mills. I generally don't shop there much though b/c they
> seem to be the most expensive store in the city.
>
Absolutely correct!!! Super Fresh is the most expensive. And their
customer service is lacking at times. I recommend ACME, Giant, and
Genuardi's. I have yet to experience Pathmark and Shop-Rite, but i will
soon try these.
One thing i really wish is that they would get their weekly flier dates in
sync. Currently:
Genuardi's: Wed-Tue
Super Fresh: Sat-Fri
ACME: Sat-Fri
Pathmark: Sun-Sat
Shop-Rite: Sun-Sat
Giant: ?
Hey, isn't there another grocery store somewhere near audubon or Trooper
or something called Shop 'n Save? I could have sworn i saw one.
Also, where i'm from, the grocery stores that have self-serve checkout do
random audits on your checkout. That means every 3 or 4 or 5 checkouts,
they will stop you and verify that you scanned everything correctly while
shopping. This keeps you honest. Sometimes people are a little off, but
one time a guy was shopping, and his true total was over what he actually
scanned by about $95. He claimed that he had forgotten to scan a few items
or something. :)
Anyway, i love Philly since there are so many grocery stores to choose
from. In Boston, there is only Shaws, Stop n Shop, Star (which was taken
over by shaws recently) and Market Basket (it is sometimes called
DeMoulla's in NH). in Maine, there is only Shop 'n Save/Hannaford (owned
by Food Lion) and shaws. In Rochester, there is only Wegmans, Bells, and
Tops. BTW, if anyone has ever been there, i think you will agree with me
in that Wegmans, shaws, and Shop n Save are among the best run grocery
stores in the country. What i love are the stores that have restaurants in
them, like Wegmans. Oh, i forgot, Walmart has grocery stores as part of
their super centers in Maine.
Question: how come i have so much difficulty running into these stores in
this area: Wal-Mart, Pathmark, Costco, Sam's, Ames, and BJ's? You really
have to go out of your way, off the beaten path, to find one of these. In
my trips to Wilmington, KOP, and Springfield, i haven't seen any of these.
I think they're hurting themselves by being so hard to find. in new
england, you can't go aywhere without running into Wal-Mart. I tried to
find Pathmarks in Broomall and Upper Darby the other day, but all i ended
up doing was driving up and down West Chester Pike and near 69th Street.
And when i tried to turn north on 69th form West Chester Pike, there was a
train station there and it said i couldn't enter. so i emailed Pathmark,
and both of my emails got returned since their email addresses are no
longer valid.
and i wish the BJ's here had gas stations like they do in Maine. BJ's and
sams are really, really fun to go to. You can buy prepaid phone cars at
$.069 a minute, and you don't even have to be a member. they sell super
huge drinks for only $.50 at their snack bar. And the people who shop
there are so nice. They have such great bargains.
also, what is the correct name: Norristown or Norritown?
George Robbins
>
>
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
>
>> Some of the Super Fresh stores have now installed self-service checkouts,
>> including Franklin Mills. I generally don't shop there much though b/c they
>> seem to be the most expensive store in the city.
>
>Absolutely correct!!! Super Fresh is the most expensive. And their
>customer service is lacking at times. I recommend ACME, Giant, and
>Genuardi's. I have yet to experience Pathmark and Shop-Rite, but i will
>soon try these.
There were once more, it's eat and be eaten in that business. You
have some of Thrift-way, Shop-Rite, and Shop-n-Bag around still,
Super-Fresh used to be A&P, Penn Fruit is only memory except for
a few arched roof stores here and there, Food Fair had distinctive
tower signs which can still be spotted in new disguies. Aldi seems
to like reopening shuttered mid-size supermarkets.
You might get at thrill out of:
http://dmoz.org/Business/Industries/Food_and_Related_Products/Retail/
>One thing i really wish is that they would get their weekly flier dates in
>sync. Currently:
>
>Genuardi's: Wed-Tue
>Super Fresh: Sat-Fri
>ACME: Sat-Fri
>Pathmark: Sun-Sat
>Shop-Rite: Sun-Sat
>Giant: ?
They don't want you to directly compare, you know?
>Hey, isn't there another grocery store somewhere near audubon or Trooper
>or something called Shop 'n Save? I could have sworn i saw one.
Might be - the old Audobon was a dinky Genaurdi's, which I think has
been expanded, the one is Audubon Square at the corner of Egypt and
Trooper Rd's, but that's a Giant.
>Question: how come i have so much difficulty running into these stores in
>this area: Wal-Mart, Pathmark, Costco, Sam's, Ames, and BJ's? You really
>have to go out of your way, off the beaten path, to find one of these. In
>my trips to Wilmington, KOP, and Springfield, i haven't seen any of these.
>I think they're hurting themselves by being so hard to find. in new
>england, you can't go aywhere without running into Wal-Mart. I tried to
>find Pathmarks in Broomall and Upper Darby the other day, but all i ended
>up doing was driving up and down West Chester Pike and near 69th Street.
>And when i tried to turn north on 69th form West Chester Pike, there was a
>train station there and it said i couldn't enter. so i emailed Pathmark,
>and both of my emails got returned since their email addresses are no
>longer valid.
>
>also, what is the correct name: Norristown or Norritown?
Norristown is the town
East/West Norriton are the townships
Norritonville and Norriton Square are crossroads
The really big superstores need good highway access, a large reasonably
well-off area to draw from, and not too much competition. Much of the
near-in Philly suburbs are already too tangled to make it easy to wedge
them in, there can be violent local opposition due to size and traffic
issues.
There's a Wal-Mart going up at the intersection of Rt 30 & Rt 10 out
in Chester County north of Parkesburg, the cleared area would fit a
standard suburban mall or two.
There are Sam's and BJ's the PA turnpike corridor, and I think a Costco
behind King of Prussia Mall, more just over in Jersy.
Ames, Bradlees and the standard K-marts are strip mall department stores,
Ames seem to target semi-rural locatioms, I think there's one in Kennet
Square.
Pathmarks are shy, they take second rate or urban locations and make
the store sell, the on in Upper Darby is a block south of the trolley
terminal, the one in Broomall is in a hole where Lawrence Rd forks off
of West Chester Pike. See their corporate website, go to the store
locator and don't enter a ZIP code, then you can get store locations
by county and nice little maps.
sycamore
> Pathmarks are shy, they take second rate or urban locations and make
> the store sell, the on in Upper Darby is a block south of the trolley
> terminal, the one in Broomall is in a hole where Lawrence Rd forks off
> of West Chester Pike. See their corporate website, go to the store
> locator and don't enter a ZIP code, then you can get store locations
> by county and nice little maps.
I actually like Pathmark. The one I shop at is a bit so-so in terms of looks, but the selection is good
and the prices are great.
Tony Shepps
>hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
>contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
>when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
>by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there. National
>companies, and national franchises--i like these concepts.
Steph,
I really don't mean to bring you down, I swear it, but 1) California and
Texas are not really "foreign lands", and 2) if you are going THERE for the
same standard stuff you get HERE, there really is no point to going THERE.
You should just stay at home.
--
Philly's virtual community since 1990: The Cellar - cellar.org
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Matthew Mitchell
g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) wrote:
>Norristown is the town
>East/West Norriton are the townships
IIRC, Norristown is a borough, and it is separate from E. Norriton.
And last I recall, a coupla markets near where Karen lives are associated
with IGA (which stands for Independent Grocers' Alliance)
One of the more important distinctions between markets is which ones are
union shops (Acme, Pathmark, Super Fresh) and which are "family" stores
(Clemens, Genuardi's, Thriftway/Shop 'n Bag). Not sure about Shop-Rite and
the two Giants. Unfortunately, I've found the service at the union stores
to be consistently worse than the family stores, though that could also be
explained by other variables, such as the family chains being smaller and
the union chains being managed from out of town (though Acme was mediocre
when it was still a Philadelphia company).
Stephanie Winters
On 26 Aug 2001, Tony Shepps wrote:
> Steph,
>
> I really don't mean to bring you down, I swear it, but 1) California and
> Texas are not really "foreign lands", and 2) if you are going THERE for the
> same standard stuff you get HERE, there really is no point to going THERE.
> You should just stay at home.
Oh, i know tony. I just meant "foreign lands" in a connotative
sense. whenever you visit some place strange and new (which i think texas
and california qualify as :) ), it's nice to find familiar stores. and i
don't go there to buy stuff--i just meant if you're on vacation or
something!
Stephanie Winters
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Matthew Mitchell wrote:
> To be precise, the kind of center you are talking about is known as a
> "power center" or something like that (see the Metroplex in Plymouth
> Meeting for one of the most egregious examples--there are people who would
> drive from one store to the next, it's so big and people are so unused to
> walking.
Speaking of walking, or not walking, i went to the stores at chemical road
where lowes is--don't know where this is--i can't tell the difference
between Norristown, Plymouth Meeting, KOP, and Conshohocken. But anyway, i
parked, and then walked to all the stores there. Even though they were so
far apart. this was a good way to get exercise. Plus, when i was there,
there was a flock of geese resting there. However, everywhere you walked,
you had to watch out for there big droppings. Perhaps i should have driven
from store to store instead :)
Plus there was one goose who just sat in the middle of the road in the
parking lot, very calmly. I was tempted to go up and pet him.
I wonder if this flock lives there year round, like the one in at that
plaza north of Boston (forgot where, but there is a pond there).
Stephanie Winters
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, George Robbins wrote:
> There are actually 3-5 "new" strip malls along there, depending on how
> you want to count, a mega-strip at the old Brandywine Racetrack, one
> one the west side just before Concord Mall, one on the East side further
> up towards Silverside Rd. You also have a food court, the original
> Silverside and Fairfax shopping centers, etc... Other bits being
> paved over or redeveloped daily.
There are so many wonderful malls on this Concord Pike. Too many to keep
track of. A nice feature i noticed is that the green light on this pike
stay green for a good 2-3 minutes, which is the longest i have ever
seen. good for getting traffic through. unless you're waiting at the plazas
trying to get out. this is what i call progress and foresight. Every store
you need here is in this area, except OfficeMax, Walgreens, CVS, Wal-mart,
and Drug Emporium, and the wholesale clubs.
>
> I gotta confess I liked it better when it was the Tally Ho, a gas station
> (Sinclair?), Simpsons Hobbies and Linwathes Ice Cream Farm, and then not
> much till you got to the Charcoal Pit, but I somehow or other the 60's are
> now a long time ago, and there are a lot more jobs than when Delaware
> mostly worked for DuPont.
The charcoal pit is great--happy hours there are the best. there is even a
better charcoal Pit on Kirkwood Highway by Burger King.,
Stephanie Winters
On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, George Robbins wrote:
> transportation issues. Admittely, everything in between Wilmginton
> and Newark is getting pretty well suburbanized by people who aren't
> sure where they live, but people who live in either don't think of
> Wilmington and Newark being parts of the same place.
Yes, i am amazed how big Wilmington is. I went to all the plazas on
Concord Pike, and asked if this was Talleyville, Concord, or Wilmington,
since i was curious as to where i was, and they said it was Wilmington.
Plus wilmington goes all the way over to the shore, and way down south
where downtown is. The geographical area of this town in massive. Even the
stores on Kirkwood Highway near christiana are in Wilmington!! Only
Philadelphia is bigger than wilmington in shear acreage.
>
> If SEPTA/DART could get their act together, and possibly extend
> cheap (i.e. non-Amtrak pricing) serivce to Elkton and Baltimore,
> then there might be more job vs. home cross-over, though you miss
> the Concord Pike / North Wilmington commerical area altogether,
> and miss Christana and downtown Newark on the other.
This is so confusing. I went to Delaware looking for exit 7b (delaware
ave?) on 95 to get to Autozone. As soon as i entered Delaware, i took the
left option, which was some kind of bypass--i think it's called 495 or
295. This was the wrong one, so i got off quickly at the first exit. but
there was no 95 nearby, so i got back on and drove another 5 miles south
or whatever to the next exit, which is think was Rt. 2, near some kind of
park. I turned around, went back to PA, and turned around again. This
time, as i re-entered Delaware, i took the right option, which was
supposed to be 95; however, this was exactly the same road i was on
before. This is bizarre--how can both the left and right option be exactly
the same highways? I don't even know what the purpose of having two
highways that split is. Even though it said 95, it was really 495 or 295
or whatever it's called. Somehow, i eventually found delaware Ave and exit
7b. This is the last time i use mapquest!
And get this, besides Delaware Ave (is this the same Delaware Ave as in
Philly?), there is a Philadelphia Pike, and a Pennsylvania Pike. You think
Philadelphia would have a Philadelphia Pike and a Pennsylvania Pike, but
they don't. Only Wilmington.
> >Plus there is this incredible grocery store in Delaware called "Super G".
> >i have never seen one of these in PA.
>
> Yeech. Big fails to equate more variety (also the Mall dilemma), and
> that store looks big but is very shall. I think Pathmark actually had
> more stuff. Super G and Giant (like the one in the Plymouth Twp) are
> the same thing, lots of them as you head toward DC.
>
Have you ever been to Giant in Audubon, i think? this is huge. I love this
store.
> I acutally go to the Giant mentioned a lot, it's convenient and has
> good donuts (make their own, not Krispy-Kreme crap), but in order of
> preference for local stores, it's Clemmons, Acme, and Genaurdi's,
> each has some areas that they do better, but the stocking is about 95%
> the same everywhere. Plus, Yuppie watching at Genaurdi's is always
> amusing.
>
Yes, tons of yuppies at Genuardis. Genuardis is really cool. Excellent
customer service. This is where the in crowd goes. Here and Giant.
>
> SEPTA Regional Rail service extends to Claymont and Wilmington courtesy
> of a cost-sharing agreemtent with DART, Delaware's transit agency. It
> used to be all one system with frequent commuter daily, commuter service,
> when SEPTA took over, I-95 and then I-295 were there, and the economic
> base had shifted away from downtown Wilmington and the older suburban
> development along the Delaware River/Philadelphia Pike corridor, so
> Delawae had not great interest in ponying up for rail Service to Philly.
>
That's strange--I would suspect that many of Philly's workers are actually
Delawarians and New Jerseyians--attracted to the lucrative jobs Philly
offers. This is the only reason Philly can afford to charge a wage tax,
because the salaries are so high, it doesn't matter anyway. Same for the
sales tax. Otherwise, people would just refuse to pay. This is one of the
benefits of living/working in Philly!
Mr. Big
: Plus there was one goose who just sat in the middle of the road in the
: parking lot, very calmly. I was tempted to go up and pet him.
I don't think you want to do this. Geese can be mean.
Jas.
--
James Andrews
Philadelphia, PA
Creighton Rabs
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Matthew Mitchell wrote:
> Speaking of walking, or not walking, i went to the stores at chemical road
> where lowes is--don't know where this is--i can't tell the difference
> between Norristown, Plymouth Meeting, KOP, and Conshohocken.
This would be the aforementioned Metroplex in Plymouth Twp.
Karen Byrd
Shepps) wrote:
> ctr...@hotmail.com (Creighton Rabs) wrote:
> >North of Philadelphia:
> >West of Philadelphia:
> >South Jersey:
> >Delaware:
>
> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
> warehouse?
We have a "mall" which doesn't have totally identical stores
with other malls: Center City Phila. But the problem with CC
for many people is no free parking. On the other hand you could go
to towns along the Main Line, like Ardmore and Bryn Mawr, which
both have unique stores and some free parking.
--
Karen Byrd
Mike Szilagyi
> Have you ever been to Giant in Audubon, i think? this is huge. I love this
> store.
The Giant you're thinking of is not really in Audubon. If anything it's
closer to Trooper. The developer's marketer's consultant named the
shopping center Audubon Square.
Locals (I grew up in Audubon) referred to the location of the
present-day Giant as Shrack's Corner.
- - - - -
<odd musing>
It bothers me that Shadow Traffic constantly refers to Betzwood (across
from Valley Forge Park) as Trooper. This is not Trooper. It is along
Trooper _Road_, but the place called Trooper is a couple miles further
north (past Shrack's Corner for what it's worth). The place name is
_Betzwood_ (Sigmund Lubin's Betzwood film studios occupied the
terra-cotta roofed buildings still visible from the northbound side of
the bridge).
I wonder if that all-pervasive bit of media keeps calling that place
Trooper over and over, that's the name that will stick.
</odd>
Mike Szilagyi
> One of the more important distinctions between markets is which ones are
> union shops (Acme, Pathmark, Super Fresh) and which are "family" stores
> (Clemens, Genuardi's, Thriftway/Shop 'n Bag). Not sure about Shop-Rite and
> the two Giants. Unfortunately, I've found the service at the union stores
> to be consistently worse than the family stores, though that could also be
> explained by other variables, such as the family chains being smaller and
> the union chains being managed from out of town (though Acme was mediocre
> when it was still a Philadelphia company).
Genuardi's just recently sold out to Safeway, a west-coast chain that
owns about 1800 supermarkets.
Creighton Rabs
> On 24 Aug 2001, Tony Shepps wrote:
> One thing i love about Philly is the wonderful thing called I-476. At
> every exit, just about, there is a mall:
>
> Exit 2/3: Springfield Mall
> Exit 4: Granite Run Mall
Springfield Mall is off Exit 2/Baltimore Pk; Granite Run can be
accessed more easily from Exit 3 via the US 1/Media Bypass. There are
no real malls to speak of off Exit 4/West Chester Pk (unless you count
the Manoa Shopping Center in Havertown).
> Exit 6 to I-76 west: King of Prussia Mall!!!!!!!!! (which is rumored to be
> the nation's largest mall)
Mall of America in Minnesota is the nation's largest mall. King of
Prussia is the largest mall in the east coast, even though it should
technically be considered two malls.
> The only disapointment in this is Exit 5: Villanova/St. David's. No malls,
> and a lot of congestion. And super small stores:
Then you won't like Exit 1/MacDade Blvd too much. There's the MacDade
Mall (if you want to call it a mall) - which does have a good sized
Acme and a 4-screen UA movie theatre - as well as a few shopping
centers within Ridley Twp and a very small shopping center in
Glenolden (most of the bigger shopping centers in Lower Delco are
along Baltimore Pk in Springfield just east of Clifton Heights). Once
you get past Glenolden and into Collingdale, there's nothing in the
way of shopping plazas, just a lot of small stores - you know, the
good old days before malls...
> indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike other
> suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so congested, and
> there is so little parking. I don't understand this, since suburbs are
> usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in this area, but it
> just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such potential, but it is
> not fully realized. Why didn't the people who developed Lower Merion do it
> the same way the people who developed KOP did?
Because the planners/supervisors in Lower Merion obviously wanted to
make life as miserable for non-residents of that particular township.
Besides, comparing Lower Merion and Upper Merion is like comparing
apples and oranges. Upper Merion's growth is more sprawl related,
while Lower Merion's development was mainly due to the R5 Paoli Line
many years ago.
Then again, we are talking about a township (okay, it's the school
district since Narberth is part of the LMSD) that wants to build two
completely new high schools to replace the current Lower Merion &
Harriton High Schools less than 5 years after renovating the two
existing high school buildings. And people wonder why only the
super-rich in this area live in Lower Merion?
Karen Byrd
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
> contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
> when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
> by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there. National
> companies, and national franchises--i like these concepts. If i go into a
> Burger King, i can expect the same menu and pricing, for the most part,
> anywhere i go. I like to know what i can expect, and having things
> identical like this makes me happy. For example, Lowes tends to build in
> the same malls with Target Greatland and Old Navy and dicks. thus, i know
> chances are wherever there is a Lowes, there will be a Target!!!!
It's comforting to some to have this sameness and also an opportunity to
reject confirmity to others. I don't really understand people who are the
former.
They just want predictability. Seems pretty boring to me.
But, hey, I guess there's room in America for places like the Olive
Garden. Personally I'd much rather go to a place like Ralph's.
> indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike other
> suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so congested, and
> there is so little parking. I don't understand this, since suburbs are
> usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in this area, but it
> just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such potential, but it is
> not fully realized.
Do you know that Lower Merion is one of the most affluent areas in
the North East US. Exactly what potential do you expect it to realize?!
You just managed to trash one of the finer or more interesting suburbs
in the Phila. area just because it DOESN'T resemble KOF, has
a degree diversity and architecture and there aren't any malls!
--
Karen Byrd
Karen Byrd
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> On 24 Aug 2001, Karen Byrd wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>,
> > Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
> >
> > It's now Strawbridge's. Strawbridge and Clothier was a local department
> > store chain owned and operated by the Strawbridge and Clothier
> > families until they sold the stores to the May Co. a few years
> > ago. The May Co. also bought out Woodward and Lothrup which owned
> > the John Wanamaker stores. The May Co. runs the Lord and Taylor stores.
> > The Wanamaker Building(it was the Wanamaker flagship store) at 13th and
> > Market is now a Lord and Taylor's because of the latter deal.
> > Strawbridge and Clothier and Wanamaker's got their start right after
> > the Civil War.
>
>
> thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure if they were one or two
> different stores. For example, in Mass., there is a filene's and a
> filene's basement. But they are not the same store!! and filene's basement
> has now gone out of business.
Well... frankly Strawbridge's is nothing like how Strawbridge and Clothier
used to be. As someone pointed out, all of the May Co's stores have
mostly the same merchandise. S&C had a real connection to this area.
And a lot of what they sold reflected the tastes of Philadelphians.
Strawbridge's is just another damned generic store.
--
Karen Byrd
Karen Byrd
<Pine.SOL.4.21.010826...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>, Stephanie
Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
You are missing his point! Why the hell go to some place different if you
end up doing the same things(or looking for the same things) you do at
home? Or shop in the same stores?
Where is your sense of exploration? I mean really just how stressful
is it to NOT go into a store that isn't, say, a Target?!
--
Karen Byrd
The Land of Ambiguity
>where lowes is--don't know where this is--i can't tell the difference
>between Norristown, Plymouth Meeting, KOP, and Conshohocken.
Wait, didn't you essentially say earlier that this is a good thing?
John O'Brien
<snip>
">
> but i'm surprised how big Montgomery Co. is! I was looking for a storage
> place one time, and the operator at the national office found one in the
> same 610 area code where i live with a great rate, so i got excited. turns
> out, this place was White Hall, i believe. I called the local office, and
> the person said she was a long way away from Lower Merion. This goes to
> show you how big the 610 area code can be.
>
sycamore
> That's strange--I would suspect that many of Philly's workers are actually
> Delawarians and New Jerseyians--attracted to the lucrative jobs Philly
> offers. This is the only reason Philly can afford to charge a wage tax,
> because the salaries are so high, it doesn't matter anyway. Same for the
> sales tax. Otherwise, people would just refuse to pay. This is one of the
> benefits of living/working in Philly!
I wouldn't say the highest paying jobs are in the city. Having been unemployed
twice in the past year, most of the higher paying jobs (e.g. tech jobs) seem to
be outside the city (e.g. King of Prussia, Cherry Hill, Newark, DE)...at least
in searching all the major job sites. I tried like hell to get a job inside the
city, but unfortunately, most of the offers I received were in Montgomery
County.
--
George Robbins
>
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, George Robbins wrote:
>
>> transportation issues. Admittely, everything in between Wilmginton
>> and Newark is getting pretty well suburbanized by people who aren't
>> sure where they live, but people who live in either don't think of
>> Wilmington and Newark being parts of the same place.
>
>Yes, i am amazed how big Wilmington is. I went to all the plazas on
>Concord Pike, and asked if this was Talleyville, Concord, or Wilmington,
>since i was curious as to where i was, and they said it was Wilmington.
>Plus wilmington goes all the way over to the shore, and way down south
>where downtown is. The geographical area of this town in massive. Even the
>stores on Kirkwood Highway near christiana are in Wilmington!! Only
>Philadelphia is bigger than wilmington in shear acreage.
Arghh...
All the stuff on 202 is in Delaware, New Castle County, Brandywine Hundreed,
most of it probably has Talleyville Zip code, although Talleyville is
strictly the area near the intersection of Silverside Road and Concord Pike.
Concord refers to refers to the Concordville area near the intersection of
West Chester Pike and Baltimore Pike up in PA, hence Concord Pike.
People who don't live in this area sometimes call it "North Wilmington"
to distinguish it from other suburban areas, locals are more likely
to say "Brandywine Hundred", though who knows what a Mall Worker will
tell a tourist.
The area along the Kirkwood Highway starts with Prices Corner, and doens't
have a really coherent single name, just smaller areas along the road
between Wilmington and Newark.
The first "anchored" Shopping Center, was the Merchandise Mart in Edgemoor,
with a Wanamakers, JC. Penny's, it died due to demographic shifts more
than anything else. The second was at Prices Corner, which had Sears,
JC Pennies and a Penn Fruit.
>> If SEPTA/DART could get their act together, and possibly extend
>> cheap (i.e. non-Amtrak pricing) serivce to Elkton and Baltimore,
>> then there might be more job vs. home cross-over, though you miss
>> the Concord Pike / North Wilmington commerical area altogether,
>> and miss Christana and downtown Newark on the other.
>
>This is so confusing. I went to Delaware looking for exit 7b (delaware
>ave?) on 95 to get to Autozone. As soon as i entered Delaware, i took the
>left option, which was some kind of bypass--i think it's called 495 or
>295. This was the wrong one, so i got off quickly at the first exit. but
>there was no 95 nearby, so i got back on and drove another 5 miles south
>or whatever to the next exit, which is think was Rt. 2, near some kind of
>park. I turned around, went back to PA, and turned around again. This
>time, as i re-entered Delaware, i took the right option, which was
>supposed to be 95; however, this was exactly the same road i was on
>before. This is bizarre--how can both the left and right option be exactly
>the same highways? I don't even know what the purpose of having two
>highways that split is. Even though it said 95, it was really 495 or 295
>or whatever it's called. Somehow, i eventually found delaware Ave and exit
>7b. This is the last time i use mapquest!
Always get real maps, what mapquest shows is a ghost of reality. All of
Patton, Franklin and ADC have adequate maps showing mostly New Castle
County, there's also an official state map available at police stations
and the Christiana service Plaza on I-95. You can get a good PA state
map at the PA Welcome Plaza on I-95 too, if you asked the attendent.
I-95 originally cut thru downtown, I-295 was installed as a bypass with
the fork actually starting in PA. Don't tell me you missed Tri-State Mall!
>And get this, besides Delaware Ave (is this the same Delaware Ave as in
>Philly?), there is a Philadelphia Pike, and a Pennsylvania Pike. You think
>Philadelphia would have a Philadelphia Pike and a Pennsylvania Pike, but
>they don't. Only Wilmington.
Roads and Pikes are usually named for where they (eventually) go, not
where they area. Many towns in the Delaware Valley have Delaware or
Pennsylvania Ave, lots have tree, presidential, or state/colony name
sequences. There's a Maryland Ave too, in case you missed it.
Wilmington & New Castle were fairly major sea/river ports, being the
first port up the Delaware Bay/River that had land routes not interrupted
by the Chesapeake Bay, thus your have Colonial thru Railroad era routes
to Baltimore, Philadelphia and various south-eastern Pennsylvania
commerical centers.
>> >Plus there is this incredible grocery store in Delaware called "Super G".
>> >i have never seen one of these in PA.
>>
>> Yeech. Big fails to equate more variety (also the Mall dilemma), and
>> that store looks big but is very shall. I think Pathmark actually had
>> more stuff. Super G and Giant (like the one in the Plymouth Twp) are
>> the same thing, lots of them as you head toward DC.
>
>Have you ever been to Giant in Audubon, i think? this is huge. I love this
>store.
I shop at the one in Plymouth Twp, which is newer and no smaller, that
and the nearby Clemmons store. Both have their advanantages. A few
years ago, I shopped at the mega-size Acme along 202 South of West Chester,
which was pretty fine and two new Genaurdis were in range. I don't go
crazy about any of them.
...
>> SEPTA Regional Rail service extends to Claymont and Wilmington courtesy
>> of a cost-sharing agreemtent with DART, Delaware's transit agency. It
>> used to be all one system with frequent commuter daily, commuter service,
>> when SEPTA took over, I-95 and then I-295 were there, and the economic
>> base had shifted away from downtown Wilmington and the older suburban
>> development along the Delaware River/Philadelphia Pike corridor, so
>> Delawae had not great interest in ponying up for rail Service to Philly.
>>
>
>That's strange--I would suspect that many of Philly's workers are actually
>Delawarians and New Jerseyians--attracted to the lucrative jobs Philly
>offers. This is the only reason Philly can afford to charge a wage tax,
>because the salaries are so high, it doesn't matter anyway. Same for the
>sales tax. Otherwise, people would just refuse to pay. This is one of the
>benefits of living/working in Philly!
Transit time. The train from Wilmington to Philly takes an hour, by
highway it was even longer, impossibly so up until I-95 was completed,
so the towns and job markets developed independently even though they
were linked by commuter type rail service (like Trenton). Aside from
it's own immediate suburbs Philly *workers* came mostly from Camden
and eventually the Cherry Hill area.
The area along the railroad did see some of the earlier "executive class"
suburbs, with "working class" suburbs following the trolley lines towards
Chester and Prices Corner areas), later highway oriented developments
aimed at the central farmlands, away from the original patterns, most
of which went downhill.
The city itself suffered from demographic shifts. From the 1960's to
1990's, Wilmington went from being the the only "city" in Delaware to a
"Philly/DC in miniature" as suburban development and shopping malls moved
all the retail and many of the jobs out in the the suburbs, Wilmington
and the innermost suburban ring died, except for the "Big Business"
headquartered downtown.
Since then there's been something of a resurgance as continued business
development (largely due to the low-business tax, no local wage tax, no
sales tax environment), this has preserved a L-shaped area of daytime
retail/food and encouraged the development of some nightlife zone.
Anyway, thats why the rail service to Philadelphia is less important to
the various transportation agencies, DART's biggest concern is providing
bus service to get people to in-state jobs, Philly doesn't too much matter.
While the greater Wilmington area is large and stil growing, on the map
and by most demographic or economic measures it's not in the same tier
as Philadelphia. In some ways it does include more suburban content
than Philly seems to, but that's largely because the inner core is
smaller in an area that has simmilar automobile travel distances.
Stephanie Winters
On 27 Aug 2001, Karen Byrd wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
>> indeed Lower Merion strikes me as a very strange place. It is unlike
>> other suburbs like KOP and Springfield in that everything is so
>> congested, and there is so little parking. I don't understand this,
>> since suburbs are usually like spacious. Don't get me wrong, i live in
>> this area, but it just makes me wonder sometime. Lower Merion has such
>> potential, but it is not fully realized.
> Do you know that Lower Merion is one of the most affluent areas in
> the North East US. Exactly what potential do you expect it to realize?!
>
> You just managed to trash one of the finer or more interesting suburbs
> in the Phila. area just because it DOESN'T resemble KOF, has
> a degree diversity and architecture and there aren't any malls!
>
Actually, "trash" is not correct. I said Lower Merion was "strange". This
is not "trashing" Lower Merion. I don't think there is a person in this ng
who will disagree with me about the fact that Lower Merion is indeed
strange. It is unlike all the other suburbs of Philly, so much unlike
them, that it should be more properly classified as part of Philadelphia,
given the congestion and small stores and all. It's like i have many of
the disadvantages of living in a city, but few of the advantages of living
in a suburb, which is bizarre. suburbs are supposed to be a certain way,
like KOP and Springfield. This is what people believe to be right in their
hearts. They support "sprawl". If they didn't, then why are there so
many suburbs like KOP? There are supposed to be developments all
over. Lower Merion does not fit this model, and needs to be modernized to
conform. This is called progress. Lower Merion was once a leader in
suburban development earlier the past century, but things have changed and
Lower Merion has fallen behind the times.
you have to remember the car is king, and Lower Merion is very unfriendly
to cars. The car is part of who we are as Americans. This is a problem for
Lower Merion. You must also remember i am a resident and tax payer in Lower
Merion, and as such, have a right to be a little critical of it when
necessary, in a constructive way. i pay my taxes and have a right to help
shape Lower Merion. More so than people who are not residents of Lower
Merion. Lower Merion is on the move, though, for the better. a new
comprehensive parking and signage plan is soon to be started, as announced
by Ken Davis. No longer will parking or traffic be a problem. Moreover, a
new high school, which is much needed, will finally be built.
GeneJYao
>Lower Merion is on the move, though, for the better. a new
>comprehensive parking and signage plan is soon to be started,
What do you think about Lower Merion's plans to narrow Montgomery Avenue down
to two travel lanes and one center turn lane?
Stephanie Winters
Well, Montgomery Ave is very narrow and traffic whizzes by very fast. this
is bad, since there are a lot of schools here and churches. A dedicated
turning lane in the center is good, to avoid congestion, and one lane
going each way is good enough, since right now people are zooming back to
the driving lane from the passing lane when someone decides to make a left
turn. This is somewhat dangerous. we'll have to keep our fingers crossed
this will work out ok.
What i wish they would do more is enforce the ban on tractor trailors on
Montgomery. I see this too often. there is this part of Montgomery, west,
near Villanova or past that, where there is this sunoco station and SEPTA
Station (is it Matsonford? or ????). right around there there is this huge
rock ledge that sticks out over the driving lane. Cars can fit under the
ledge, but big trucks can't. so one day this big rig on Montgomery slammed
on his brakes even though traffic was clear. The reason, i soon learned (i
was following him), was because he couldn't fit under the ledge and he had
to go into the oncoming traffic lane (here the road in only one lane each
way). That ledge should be fixed, or better enforcement. (I believe trucks
are banned from this part of Montgomery too, but i am not sure.)
George Robbins
>who will disagree with me about the fact that Lower Merion is indeed
>strange. It is unlike all the other suburbs of Philly, so much unlike
>them, that it should be more properly classified as part of Philadelphia,
>given the congestion and small stores and all. It's like i have many of
>the disadvantages of living in a city, but few of the advantages of living
>in a suburb, which is bizarre. suburbs are supposed to be a certain way,
>like KOP and Springfield. This is what people believe to be right in their
>hearts. They support "sprawl". If they didn't, then why are there so
>many suburbs like KOP? There are supposed to be developments all
>over. Lower Merion does not fit this model, and needs to be modernized to
>conform. This is called progress. Lower Merion was once a leader in
>suburban development earlier the past century, but things have changed and
>Lower Merion has fallen behind the times.
Most people in Lower Merion are probably thrilled to have it as it is
and look agast at more recent cookie-cutter suburbs.
You are not looking hard enough to see what's there and why, your assertion
that it should be a certain way is going to run head-on with people who
have been there for generations, have different values, and also represent
the less than democratically ideal entrenched parts of the power structure.
>you have to remember the car is king, and Lower Merion is very unfriendly
>to cars. The car is part of who we are as Americans. This is a problem for
>Lower Merion. You must also remember i am a resident and tax payer in Lower
>Merion, and as such, have a right to be a little critical of it when
>necessary, in a constructive way. i pay my taxes and have a right to help
>shape Lower Merion. More so than people who are not residents of Lower
>Merion. Lower Merion is on the move, though, for the better. a new
>comprehensive parking and signage plan is soon to be started, as announced
>by Ken Davis. No longer will parking or traffic be a problem. Moreover, a
>new high school, which is much needed, will finally be built.
Occupancy gives you some rights, you'll find that most shaping is done
by Lower Merion, to Lower Merion to preserve the way it is, with a few
tips of the hat torwards "progress" and convenience.
George Robbins
>In article ,
>g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) wrote:
>
>>Norristown is the town
>>East/West Norriton are the townships
>
>IIRC, Norristown is a borough, and it is separate from E. Norriton.
This is apparently the case, as usually you only need to go back
200-300 years to track down the details. 8-)
http://www.norristown.org/history.htm
>And last I recall, a coupla markets near where Karen lives are associated
>with IGA (which stands for Independent Grocers' Alliance)
Possibly. The IGA webpage lists nothing in "Philadelphia", though there
are others in Pennsylvania, I don't know that it's all inclusive.
>One of the more important distinctions between markets is which ones are
>union shops (Acme, Pathmark, Super Fresh) and which are "family" stores
>(Clemens, Genuardi's, Thriftway/Shop 'n Bag). Not sure about Shop-Rite and
>the two Giants. Unfortunately, I've found the service at the union stores
>to be consistently worse than the family stores, though that could also be
>explained by other variables, such as the family chains being smaller and
>the union chains being managed from out of town (though Acme was mediocre
>when it was still a Philadelphia company).
Aside from the simple national or regional chains:
IGA is a national/international voluntary association aka brand franchise
Shop-Rite is a co-op (in terms of store-owner / supplier relationship)
Thriftway/Shop-n-Bag is a local (tri-state) association of indepent stores
Basically, these stores offer alternatives to the mongo chains, they are
usually family owned. Obviously, size and quality differ radically, many
of the ratty little markets in Philly are Thriftways, this doesn't mean
that a Thriftway out in the suburbs might not pretty good store.
Shop-Rite has more of a suburban focus. IGA is the traditional small
town grocery, though there are large IGA supermarkets too. All of these
stem from the need for store owners to get into national brand distribution
chains, advertising deals and obtain store-branded merchandise. Stocking
decisions are a lot more up to the owners in these kind of stores, you may
find more variety in a small store than the nearby mega-mart, or a greater
focus on the local ethnic foods.
Pathmark, BTW, is also a tri-state chain - if you ignore the one remaining
store in Delaware, the other states are however North Jersey and New York.
rd...@nospam.nni.com
<sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Actually, "trash" is not correct. I said Lower Merion was "strange". This
>is not "trashing" Lower Merion. I don't think there is a person in this ng
>who will disagree with me about the fact that Lower Merion is indeed
>strange. It is unlike all the other suburbs of Philly, so much unlike
>them, that it should be more properly classified as part of Philadelphia,
>given the congestion and small stores and all. It's like i have many of
>the disadvantages of living in a city, but few of the advantages of living
>in a suburb, which is bizarre. suburbs are supposed to be a certain way,
>like KOP and Springfield.
I live in Narberth, and I certainly don't look at it this way. What's
great about living here is that I can walk to many conveniences, such
as getting some milk, renting a movie, or going to a restaurant. I
take the train for work in Center City and use my car once or twice
per week, usually to get groceries. The traffic and congestion in
this area is not a major concern to me. The reason it is a special
place to live is that a car is not required. You also don't have many
of the city problems like higher crime, high auto insurance rates and
crummy public schools.
>This is what people believe to be right in their
>hearts. They support "sprawl". If they didn't, then why are there so
>many suburbs like KOP?
The reason why is that modern zoning laws prohibit older-style subrubs
like a Narberth or Chestnut Hill from being built. While many people
may prefer to live in this type of community, the average developer
has no interest in trying to change these laws. NIMBYs also play a
role- they assume that higher-density living will automatically
generate crime and "undesirable" people. (and will challenge any
zoning modifications.)
>There are supposed to be developments all
>over. Lower Merion does not fit this model, and needs to be modernized to
>conform. This is called progress. Lower Merion was once a leader in
>suburban development earlier the past century, but things have changed and
>Lower Merion has fallen behind the times.
>
>you have to remember the car is king, and Lower Merion is very unfriendly
>to cars. The car is part of who we are as Americans.
Yikes. You're aren't going to make tons of friends in this NG with
statements like that.
>This is a problem for
>Lower Merion. You must also remember i am a resident and tax payer in Lower
>Merion, and as such, have a right to be a little critical of it when
>necessary, in a constructive way. i pay my taxes and have a right to help
>shape Lower Merion. More so than people who are not residents of Lower
>Merion. Lower Merion is on the move, though, for the better. a new
>comprehensive parking and signage plan is soon to be started, as announced
>by Ken Davis. No longer will parking or traffic be a problem. Moreover, a
>new high school, which is much needed, will finally be built.
I would recommend that you move to one of far northern suburbs if you
don't like Lower Merion. It would have more of the development you
want, and would probably be a lot cheaper. Many people have moved to
this area precisely because it isn't a K of P-type suburb.
Karen Byrd
<Pine.SOL.4.21.010827...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>, Stephanie
Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> On 27 Aug 2001, Karen Byrd wrote:
>
> Stephanie wrote:
>
> > Do you know that Lower Merion is one of the most affluent areas in
> > the North East US. Exactly what potential do you expect it to realize?!
> >
> > You just managed to trash one of the finer or more interesting suburbs
> > in the Phila. area just because it DOESN'T resemble KOF, has
> > a degree diversity and architecture and there aren't any malls!
> >
>
> Actually, "trash" is not correct. I said Lower Merion was "strange". This
> is not "trashing" Lower Merion. I don't think there is a person in this ng
> who will disagree with me about the fact that Lower Merion is indeed
> strange. It is unlike all the other suburbs of Philly, so much unlike
> them, that it should be more properly classified as part of Philadelphia,
> given the congestion and small stores and all. It's like i have many of
> the disadvantages of living in a city, but few of the advantages of living
> in a suburb, which is bizarre. suburbs are supposed to be a certain way,
> like KOP and Springfield.
All this shows is just how young you are in that you have no personal
experience,
or apparently awareness, that Phila. (and other places) developed, what
are now called, inner ring 'burbs. These places were the REAL 'burbs once
upon a time.
Back when a lot of Chester, Montgonery, Bucks and western Delaware
Counties were farm land.
> This is what people believe to be right in their
> hearts. They support "sprawl". If they didn't, then why are there so
> many suburbs like KOP? There are supposed to be developments all
> over. Lower Merion does not fit this model, and needs to be modernized to
> conform.
NO ONE is going to bull-doze Lower Merion. To most people here it's an
ASSET just the way it is. It has character and charm and just the things
that you don't think a "suburb" should have. It actually allows people
to not be car-dependent if they choose to be.
> This is called progress. Lower Merion was once a leader in
> suburban development earlier the past century, but things have changed and
> Lower Merion has fallen behind the times.
This makes me laugh because I can almost bet that the per capita income
of people living in Lower Merion is among the highest in all
of the Phila metro area. Obviously to them it's fine the way it is.
> you have to remember the car is king, and Lower Merion is very unfriendly
> to cars. The car is part of who we are as Americans. This is a problem for
> Lower Merion. You must also remember i am a resident and tax payer in Lower
> Merion, and as such, have a right to be a little critical of it when
> necessary, in a constructive way.
I won't get into an argument about the pros and cons of personal vehicle
ownership. But to me you are missing the whole value of being in the
Phila. area: It's historic and non-car centric context. Why be here? Why
stay here if all you want are the exact same experiences that could be had
in suburban Denver or Atlanta? Thank GOD not everybody thinks the way you do!
--
Karen Byrd
Karen Byrd
kyb...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Karen Byrd) wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.SOL.4.21.010827...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>, Stephanie
> Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 27 Aug 2001, Karen Byrd wrote:
> >
> >
> > ... It's like i have many of
> > the disadvantages of living in a city, but few of the advantages of living
> > in a suburb, which is bizarre. suburbs are supposed to be a certain way,
> > like KOP and Springfield.
>
> All this shows is just how young you are in that you have no personal
> experience,
> or apparently awareness, that Phila. (and other places) developed, what
> are now called, inner ring 'burbs. These places were the REAL 'burbs once
> upon a time.
> Back when a lot of Chester, Montgonery, Bucks and western Delaware
> Counties were farm land.
>
> > This is what people believe to be right in their
> > hearts. They support "sprawl". If they didn't, then why are there so
> > many suburbs like KOP? There are supposed to be developments all
> > over. Lower Merion does not fit this model, and needs to be modernized to
> > conform.
>
> NO ONE is going to bull-doze Lower Merion. To most people here it's an
> ASSET just the way it is. It has character and charm and just the things
> that you don't think a "suburb" should have. It actually allows people
> to not be car-dependent if they choose to be.
Whoa! I meant car-*independent!*
--
Karen Byrd
dickwyll
> You're drawing a lot of superficial conclusions in ignorace of the actual
> trasnportation and (sub-)urban development over the past 10-25-50-100
> years, never mind the couple of hundred before that. I suggest when you
> look at something say "how old is this". Even the crappiest parts of the
> area have several hundred yars of being Pennsylvania, even the shiniest
> new suburban townhouse or mall is sitting on top of several iterations
> of "used to be part of" in different historical context.
Certainly one of the most fascinating aspects of an area such as SE
Pennsyvania is just that, several iterations of used to be's. I love riding
around the area, imagining what a place was like when it was first granted
to farmers by William Penn, built up as a town along a creek in the early
days of industrialization, growing up around a RR as a regional center, or
later developed as a RR suburb for the well to do. Later development would
come with interurban trolleys starting in the 1890's, opening up an area for
more middle class development, though still based on transit. Then in the
period post WWI growth of the automobile, when everything still had to have
some transit basis, the car used mainly for local running around. And in
all of this, there could be times when an area went into decline: the RR
passed by a thriving country town and it withered away, steam power came in
to power industry and the village that grew up along the creek became
obsolete. And then post WWII automobile suburbs in which transit had very
little part to play.
What will be the next stage of development. Is there a chance, and I know
there is, that sometime in the future the private automobile will become
obsolete? Interesting, all of it.
Art Clemons
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> writes:
>For example, in Mass., there is a filene's and a
>filene's basement. But they are not the same store!! and filene's basement
>has now gone out of business.
Filene's Basement was originally part of Filene's. It was an attempt to expand
stores for practically nothing that never really worked out. Filenes was a
department store, which had a basement with 2nd level merchandise, one of a
kind merchandise and the like. It also was the shopping home of numerous women
who would try on clothes in public regardless of who was looking. It was not
one of my favorite places to be growing up for some reason, when looking back I
would have expected the sight of lots of practically nude female flesh to be a
real draw for me. Oh well!
Still, I suspect that department stores are now outdated concepts, which
depended on women who didn't work to keep the registers ringing. Walmart, and
its competition just about made them impractical as did trying to have
department stores in malls with high prices.
-art clemons-
Art Clemons
g...@shandakor.tharsis.com (George Robbins) writes:
>Pathmark, BTW, is also a tri-state chain - if you ignore the one remaining
>store in Delaware, the other states are however North Jersey and New York.
There are at least two Pathmarks I can think of off the top of my head in South
Jersey, one in Lawnside on Route 30 just pass the I-295 Route 30 exit, and the
other apparently in Camden on Route 168 next to WKDN's transmitter site.
-art clemons-
Art Clemons
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> writes:
>I wonder if this flock lives there year round, like the one in at that
>plaza north of Boston (forgot where, but there is a pond there).
>
If you go down West River Drive regularly, you can see a gaggle of geese year
round, although I swear right around Christmas, the number mysteriously drops.
I have my thoughts about some of the folks who feed the geese in that regard,
but have never seen anything. I just note that the number drops just about the
time someone might want a nice Christmas goose. Hint though folks, it's highly
illegal and buying a goose or gander in a supermarket is safer both legally and
if the goose or gander puts up a fight, you may get chased off and abused by a
bird.
-art clemons-
Me
smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu, "Exile on Market
Street" <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> In article <3B867D37...@mindspring.com>, sycamore
> <sy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> There is Neshaminy Mall in Trevose (Rt. 1 north of the PA Turnpike), Oxford
>> Valley Mall in Langhorne (Rt. 1 north of I-95), Willow Grove Mall in Willow
>> Grove (along PA-611), and the Brandywine Mall in Brandywine, DE (on US 202,
>> north of I-95).
>
> A good bit north of it. It's only a mile or two from the PA line.
>
> And since we're doing Delaware, don't forget the Christiana Mall at I-95
> and DE 1.
I am amazed that so many people spend money at these big malls. With the
possible exception of Franklin Mills, the big indoor malls tend to have
outrageously high prices. That includes the Concorde and Christiana malls in
Delaware and especially the King of Prussia and Cherry Hill malls. I live
within a short distance from the Cherry Hill mall, yet I rarely venture
inside the place. There's little to distinguish one mall from another in any
region of the country. They almost always have the obligatory food court
with a pizza joint, Chinese or Japanese place, a fast food burger joint, and
a salad place with the usual high priced pretentious anchor stores at
opposite ends of the mall.
I guess for people who have money burning a hole in their wallet or purse,
these malls offer a great shopping experience. This is especially true for
people who want to buy designer clothing. For me, Kmart and Target are fine.
Ditto for Wal-Mart. When I need anything other than clothes, if I am not in
a hurry to get it, I buy it via the web from the comfort of my home at my
own convenience. I am amazed that these malls do so well. Every time I drive
by the Cherry Hill mall, the parking lot is crowded.
If I am in the mood to browse through a few stores, I prefer the old style
strip malls. Probably the best strip mall in Philly is the Roosevelt Mall,
but alas, prices there are starting to reach the rip off level of the big
mega malls. Still, the Roosevelt Mall is a nice place to wonder around on a
nice fall or spring day.
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if there are more malls north of Philly, like in
> Feasterville or Bensalem, or south of Philly, like in chester? My goal is
> to visit every mall within 50 miles of Philly by the end of this year. And
> when i say mall, i mean a whole group of stores in an enclosed building,
> with numerous anchor stores, like Sears, and Strawbridges, with plenty of
> available free parking around the mall.
Its quite a bit outside of Philadelphia, but there's the Oxford Valley Mall
in Yardley, which is just off Rout 1 and I95 a bit north of route 413. This
mall is within your fifty mile limit though. So is the Neshamini Mall which
is just a short distance from Philadelphia's northernmost border. There's an
off ramp from Route 1 to the mall just north of the turnpike access ramps.
In Montgomery County, there's the Montgomeryville Mall. Its on Route 309
maybe about 15 miles north of Philly.
Within Philly, there's a mall just south of where Philly and Montgomery
County meet. I think its called the Cedar Crest Mall, but I am not positive
about that. This mall is on Cheltenham Ave. I haven't been in that mall for
at least 15 years so I have no idea of the condition its in, but if its
anything like the area surrounding it, the interior of the mall is probably
a disappointment.
There's also the Plymouth Meeting Mall just off I476.
In New Jersey, there's the Cherry Hill Mall, about five or ten miles east of
the Ben Franklin Bridge on Route 38. There's also the Echelon Mall and the
Debford Mall.
I am sure there are some others which I have forgotten. A look at a
Philadelphia regional road map might have the larger malls all listed.
Frankly, why in the world would anyone strive to visit all the malls in the
Philadelphia area? I have been to most of the malls repeatedly so I can tell
you without a doubt, if you've been to one of the malls, you've been to them
all. Other than their location, there's very little that distinguishes one
mall from another, and that includes those in other urban areas too.
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, George Robbins wrote:
>
>> North of Philly you have Oxford Valley Mall, Franklin Mills, and
>> Mongomery Mall, west you have King of Prussia, south you have Granite
>> Run, for the biggest ones.
>>
>
> Yes, i have been searching for this Montgomery mall for a while. Everyone
> tells me how nice Montgomeryville is, with a lot of stores. I live in
> Montgomery county, but, surprisingly, haven't run into Montgomeryville
> yet, which must be Montgomery County's major town. guess i will have to
> get out the old map and plot a route!
Just drive north along Route 309 from Ambler or some other point in that
area. You'll see the mall at around Stump Road, if I am not mistaken. The
mall is on your left as you drive north along 309.
Me
Shepps" <to...@pond.com.nospam> wrote:
> ctr...@hotmail.com (Creighton Rabs) wrote:
>> North of Philadelphia:
>> West of Philadelphia:
>> South Jersey:
>> Delaware:
>
> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
> warehouse?
Ah, you just reminded me about the Moorestown Mall in NJ on Route 38. It is
well within Stephanie's 50 mile limit. There are a few unique stores in that
mall, one of which is a place where skate boards and accessories are sold
and the store even has a pretty large area where skate board enthusiasts can
skate around various obstacles. Its a pretty neat store!
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> On 24 Aug 2001, Tony Shepps wrote:
>
>> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
>> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
>> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
>> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
>> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
>> warehouse?
>
>
> hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
> contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
> when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
> by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there
Why? I don't know you, but you sure seem like a shopping addict. What kind
of business are you in that you shop so much? I have traveled to quite a few
different areas of this country, including California several times. Not
once have I felt the need to find a chain store or visit a mega mall on my
travels. I usually bring what I need with me and the few times I forget a
small incidental item or two, a quick visit to a drug store fixes the
problem.
>
> One thing i love about Philly is the wonderful thing called I-476. At
> every exit, just about, there is a mall:
Yawn, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
> Exit 2/3: Springfield Mall
> Exit 4: Granite Run Mall
> Exit 6 to I-76 west: King of Prussia Mall!!!!!!!!! (which is rumored to be
> the nation's largest mall)
At one time, King of Prussia Mall was the nation's largest indoor mall. I am
sure the Mall of America is larger.
> Exit 7/8: Plymouth Meeting Mall and Chemical Road stores (including Lowes,
> Target, Old Navy, giant, and Dicks)
Stephanie Winters
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Me wrote:
>
> I am amazed that so many people spend money at these big malls. With the
> possible exception of Franklin Mills, the big indoor malls tend to have
> outrageously high prices.
Hi me, the reason i like malls is that usually nearby are stores like
Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, and Staples, which have excellent
prices. also, Lowes, and OfficeMax, and Office Depot, and home Depot!
Often, items are "free" after the rebate!!
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> On 24 Aug 2001, Karen Byrd wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.01082...@babel.ling.upenn.edu>,
>> Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Oh, btw, is the correct name Strawbridges, or Strawbridges and Clothier?
>>
>> It's now Strawbridge's. Strawbridge and Clothier was a local department
>> store chain owned and operated by the Strawbridge and Clothier
>> families until they sold the stores to the May Co. a few years
>> ago. The May Co. also bought out Woodward and Lothrup which owned
>> the John Wanamaker stores. The May Co. runs the Lord and Taylor stores.
>> The Wanamaker Building(it was the Wanamaker flagship store) at 13th and
>> Market is now a Lord and Taylor's because of the latter deal.
>> Strawbridge and Clothier and Wanamaker's got their start right after
>> the Civil War.
>
>
> thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure if they were one or two
> different stores. For example, in Mass., there is a filene's and a
> filene's basement. But they are not the same store!! and filene's basement
> has now gone out of business.
>
> One thing i like about Philly, is that malls
> have numerous anchor stores, Strawbridge's being one of them. In Other
> cities, like Rochester, or Portland, there are only 4 anchor/department
> stores per mall:
>
> Rochester: JC Penney, Sears, McCurdy's, Kaufmans
> Portland: Macy's, Filene's, Sears, JC Penney
>
> But in Philly, there are so many stores worthy of being an anchor store:
>
> JC Penney, Sears, Strawbrigde's, Lord & Taylor, Bloomingdales, Neiman
> Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's
What's the difference between these stores? I rarely venture into any of
them, but when I do, I am hard pressed to tell one store from the other. The
only exception I can think of is the Lord & Taylor on Market Street which
used to be the old Wanamaker's. If you haven't been to this particular Lord
& Taylor during the Christmas season, you should definitely go. Every hour
or two, they play a wonderful light show with music from the grand old organ
in the store. It is truly a fabulous holiday treat and I do buy a small item
or two when I go there to see the show to express my gratitude for the show.
Me
"George Robbins" <g...@shandakor.tharsis.com> wrote:
>
> Concord Mall is the original, since it was he Almart Store that got a Mall
> glued onto the northern end. It's gone thru several phases of re-development
> incuding extension, anchor stores tacked on the end, then the side and then
> the middle and finally replacement of the original Almart building with a
> Sears store. Sort of amazing considering there's a housing development right
> behind it and other retail on either side, rather constraining the availabe
> space, at least until the Pathmark/Borders/Theater clump is absorbed.
Considering that a Best Buy and a Barnes and Noble both opened up in that
"clump" within the past year and they are doing very well, I doubt that the
Concord mall would expand in that direction (north), at least not in this
economy where consumer spending is in the dumpster.
Stephanie Winters
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Me wrote:
>
> Frankly, why in the world would anyone strive to visit all the malls in the
> Philadelphia area? I have been to most of the malls repeatedly so I can tell
> you without a doubt, if you've been to one of the malls, you've been to them
> all. Other than their location, there's very little that distinguishes one
> mall from another, and that includes those in other urban areas too.
>
hi me, thanks for the listings! and thanks to everyone else, George
included, who also gave me listings!!
umm, i like visiting malls, because malls are major landmarks for a
community. Each mall is unique and defines a particular region. For me,
it's like visiting all of the parks in Philadelphia. there is such
diversity. Plus when it's summer, i love the air conditioned malls. Malls
are as american as apple pie. Malls are everything. they are so important
to defining who we are as americans. Everyone hangs out at the mall at one
time in their life or another. Malls are so fun to walk around and watch
people. Malls are incredible. This is where all the action is at. this is
where people congregate on weekends!!
Me
B7ADE8FC9...@cc115617-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com, "Matthew Mitchell"
<mitc...@dvarp.org> wrote:
>
> The Pennsylvania Giant is the only chain I know of in the area to offer
> self-service checkout. I don't do much shopping there at all, so I can't
> say if it's a net plus or minus to the consumer.
Nope. Superfresh does in some of its stores. The Superfresh that recently
folded in Cherry Hill had some self-checkout lines. The store by the
Franklin Mills mall has self-checkout registers too.
Stephanie Winters
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Me wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
> > hi tony, i realize how some people like diversity; however, i would
> > contend that cookie cutter malls and plazas are a desirable trait. Indeed,
> > when i visit foreign lands, such as California, or Texas, i am comforted
> > by the fact there will be stores i am familiar with are there
>
> Why? I don't know you, but you sure seem like a shopping addict. What kind
> of business are you in that you shop so much? I have traveled to quite a few
> different areas of this country, including California several times. Not
> once have I felt the need to find a chain store or visit a mega mall on my
> travels. I usually bring what I need with me and the few times I forget a
> small incidental item or two, a quick visit to a drug store fixes the
> problem.
Oh, i shop all the time to replenish my inventory. it's a never ending
cycle. Sometimes there are certain items i need to buy, but a certain
Staples or best buy doesn't have it. So i have to drive to others in the
area to get it. Sometimes they won't give rain checks, or there are
limited quantities.
Oh, nationally, i have been to about 100 different Staples, for example. I
have lived in different areas of the county in my life, so i have had a
chance to explore a lot!
These big box stores are an inherent part of americana.
Me
<sy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Camden, while improving, is still a toilet...and it will take many more years
> (and less corruption) for it to truly improve. It is New Jersey's poorest
> city.
But the Whiggan's park area long the river is a wonderful place. During the
past two years' July 4th festivities, I went there several times to enjoy
all the festivities and see the fireworks. Its a hell of a lot less
congested than Penn's Landing, the parking is cheaper, if not free, and
there's plenty to see and do.
> And if you want to save a dollar, take the Tacony bridge.
Not for long. Come January, the price of the Tacony-Palmyra bridge will
raise to three dollars when EZPass is implemented there.
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.010826...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> On 26 Aug 2001, Tony Shepps wrote:
>
>> Steph,
>>
>> I really don't mean to bring you down, I swear it, but 1) California and
>> Texas are not really "foreign lands", and 2) if you are going THERE for the
>> same standard stuff you get HERE, there really is no point to going THERE.
>> You should just stay at home.
>
>
> Oh, i know tony. I just meant "foreign lands" in a connotative
> sense. whenever you visit some place strange and new (which i think texas
> and california qualify as :) ), it's nice to find familiar stores. and i
> don't go there to buy stuff--i just meant if you're on vacation or
> something!
Why? Your comment mystifies me. When I go on vacation, the last thing I want
to do is go shopping, much less in the same stores I could shop in here in
my home town area. Than again, the last thing I want to do when I am home is
shopping. Maybe its a genetic thing with the men in my family, but we all
seem to loath going shopping. I have a more enjoyable time getting my teeth
cleaned at my dentist than I do shopping for clothes and most other things.
I just gotta ask, what's so interesting about shopping? There are so many
more things to do in life, esp. in this area. There's opportunity to go out
an enjoy the many parks, the zoo, get some exercise, watch TV, read a good
book or magazine, newsgroups, enjoy a nice meal at a restaurant, go golfing,
swimming, take a ride to the beach, build a model car, knit a scarf, see one
of the museums, catch a movie, take an evening course, and on and on. Why so
much emphasis on shopping?
Me
"Karen Byrd" <kyb...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
> In article <91088ABt...@209.189.89.225>, to...@pond.com.nospam (Tony
> Shepps) wrote:
>
>> ctr...@hotmail.com (Creighton Rabs) wrote:
>>> North of Philadelphia:
>>> West of Philadelphia:
>>> South Jersey:
>>> Delaware:
>>
>> And they all have identical stores, or near identical. Old Navy, Gap, Foot
>> Locker, Electronics Boutique, B.Dalton, Lechter, Sam Goody. Yawn. I have
>> nothing aginst malls, but wouldn't it be great if there was a mall that
>> didn't have the exact same stores? Are we all that goddamn identical, or
>> can no Mom and/or Pop figure out how many boxes of crap to order from the
>> warehouse?
>
> We have a "mall" which doesn't have totally identical stores
> with other malls: Center City Phila. But the problem with CC
> for many people is no free parking. On the other hand you could go
> to towns along the Main Line, like Ardmore and Bryn Mawr, which
> both have unique stores and some free parking.
Well said Karen, and in fact, The Gallery at 8th and Market might be worth a
stop for Stephanie. As for small towns, I think Media and Haddonfield are
both wonderful small towns with an excellent shopping areas, but the manage
to do it without any innocuous mega malls.
Me
Pine.SOL.4.21.010827...@babel.ling.upenn.edu, "Stephanie
Winters" <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> you have to remember the car is king, and Lower Merion is very unfriendly
> to cars. The car is part of who we are as Americans. This is a problem for
> Lower Merion. You must also remember i am a resident and tax payer in Lower
> Merion, and as such, have a right to be a little critical of it when
> shape Lower Merion. More so than people who are not residents of Lower
> Merion. Lower Merion is on the move, though, for the better. a new
> comprehensive parking and signage plan is soon to be started, as announced
> by Ken Davis. No longer will parking or traffic be a problem. Moreover, a
> new high school, which is much needed, will finally be built.
Stephanie, you're right. In America, the car is king and that's sad. In my
opinion, the ultimate status symbol in this country is not to have to rely
on a car to live a happy and productive life. Few people ever attain that
goal and fewer still understand why that should be a goal.
If you haven't done so, visit some cities outside of the United States.
There are many places I have yet to visit, but I am fortunate enough to have
visited quite a few cities in Europe. Areas such as Norwich, Siena, Rome,
and Stockholm have wonderful shopping areas where there's not a single mall
in site, not a single chain department store. There areas where people are
forbidden to drive cars. Adults and kids can wonder around without the fear
of being run down by a car or motorcycle. Friends can sit outside and enjoy
a nice meal at a restaurant without having to breath automobile exhaust or
have their conversation drowned out by the din of motor traffic.
Me
"Karen Byrd" <kyb...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
Bravo Karen! One of Philadelphia's best assets is that the down town (Center
City) area is so walkable. In fact, this morning, I just walked two miles
along Broad Street from where my apartment's free shuttle bus dropped me off
to my office and I enjoyed the walk and got some exercise and I arrived at
work only a few minutes later than if I had taken the Broad Street subway.
Sometimes, I will get off the shuttle bus at 8th and Walnut and walk the
rest of the way to one of the subway stations to get to my office.
When I used to live near Front & South Streets, I would frequently enjoy a
Sunday morning walk all the way up to the Parkway to see one of the museums.
I hope that characteristic of the city never changes.
Me
"Art Clemons" <artcl...@aol.com> wrote:
There's at least one more Pathmark in South Jersey. There's a Pathmark
directly across Church Road from the north side of the Cherry Hill Mall.
Stephanie Winters
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Me wrote:
>
> Stephanie, you're right. In America, the car is king and that's sad. In my
> opinion, the ultimate status symbol in this country is not to have to rely
> on a car to live a happy and productive life. Few people ever attain that
> goal and fewer still understand why that should be a goal.
>
> If you haven't done so, visit some cities outside of the United States.
> There are many places I have yet to visit, but I am fortunate enough to have
> visited quite a few cities in Europe. Areas such as Norwich, Siena, Rome,
> and Stockholm have wonderful shopping areas where there's not a single mall
> in site, not a single chain department store. There areas where people are
> forbidden to drive cars. Adults and kids can wonder around without the fear
> of being run down by a car or motorcycle. Friends can sit outside and enjoy
> a nice meal at a restaurant without having to breath automobile exhaust or
> have their conversation drowned out by the din of motor traffic.
>
>
Yes, but the problem with this me, is that if you have multiple shopping
bags from your shopping trips, it's very hard to carry them on a bus or
when you're walking. You need a trunk or a back seat. Plus your car
functions kind of like a road office. A car is one's personal space that
everyone needs. You can regroup here, think, ponder, eat, and look at a
map. there are too many stores out there, and they can't all be close by,
so you have to have a car to get to them. For example, no one will build
Giant, Path-mark, Shop-rite, and Super Fresh, and ACME and Genuardi's right
next to each other. so you have to drive to get to each one in a
week. Each one has their own specials and advantages.
Me
"Art Clemons" <artcl...@aol.com> wrote:
I might be mistaken, but I believe the geese simply migrate south during the
winter season. I live in NJ adjacent to a park with a river running through
it. There are geese flying by my apartment heading south in the fall and the
population of geese in the park drops quite a bit by the Christmas season.
What you describe is quite natural and there's nothing sinister involved.
Stephanie Winters
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Me wrote:
Hey, you have to go to this website:
http://www.pathmark.com/info/locator.cfm?mynav=12
then it will show you every pathmark anywhere, by county!
Stephanie Winters
> Hey, you have to go to this website:
>
>
> http://www.pathmark.com/info/locator.cfm?mynav=12
>
> then it will show you every pathmark anywhere, by county!
>
No, go to this one instead:
http://www.pathmark.com/info/storelocator.cfm?mynav=12
and type in 19039 for a zip code. This will fail to find a store,
but will instead show you all the counties
>
Tom
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
>
> > Some of the Super Fresh stores have now installed self-service checkouts,
> > including Franklin Mills. I generally don't shop there much though b/c they
> > seem to be the most expensive store in the city.
> >
>
> Absolutely correct!!! Super Fresh is the most expensive. And their
> customer service is lacking at times.
True. Super Fresh is owned by the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company (A&P)
and has a Very Strong Union, which explains both their prices and their service.
.....
> Anyway, i love Philly since there are so many grocery stores to choose
> from. In Boston, there is only Shaws, Stop n Shop, Star (which was taken
>
Stop and Shop in New England and both Giant's (including Super G which is what one
of the Giant's called themselves in areas where the other Giant already had the
trademark before they became sister companies) are now all owned by Royal Ahold
of Netherlands. Ahold is changing their stores in New Jersey to the Stop & Shop
brand to save marketing costs. Perhaps the same will happen to Giant. Ahold is
the largest grocer in the world and has bought other chains in the US, including
Bi-Lo.
Tom
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, sycamore wrote:
> >
> > 76 East can be tough after 5pm. I take 76 East to the Boulevard every
> > evening. If I hop on 76 right at 5, it's not too bad. Between 5:30 and 6:30,
> > it can get a bit backed up around 476, the curve, and the Green Lane/Belmont
> > Ave. exit. Overall though, traffic here is relatively mild.
> >
>
> this is sooo true! compared to Boston, Chicago, and NY, traffic is a
> breeze here, i have come to learn! One reason is because people are so
> spread out. they live in Springfield, Philly, NE Philly, Bensalem, KOP,
> etc. In furtherance of this goal, one thing i would like to see is the
> elimination of the barrier that separates NJ and PA. This $3.00 toll
> deters many people, including myself, from visiting NJ, and vice-versa. i
> would love to go to Cherry Hill and Deptford more often, but don't because
> of this toll (NJ is so cool, and New Jerseyians have a smart sophistication
> about them). there is the potential for developing one community, one
> Philadelphia, a Philadelphia that encompasses not only the western,
> northern, and southern suburbs, but also the eastern part. indeed Philly
> has the potential of being a giant megalopolis. But it doesn't realize
> that full potential. Right now, i would venture to say New Jerseyians feel
> excluded from Philadelphia. Is it not arrogant of Pennsylvania to charge
> New Jerseyians a tariff to be allowed to come and visit all the Philly has
> to offer? I mean, they don't charge a toll for us to visit them. They are
> forced to pay to get in. this could be considered reminiscent of voting
> poll taxes that were levied agains African Americans in the olden days.
> We are all one community, and this toll is a force which divides two great
> cities: Philly and Camden. Let us tear down this wall once and for all.
Wait a second!!! The toll was just removed Eastbound on these bridges a few years
ago so that commuters would only have to wait in line once a day, instead of paying
half as much at a time, but in both directions. The tolls are used to maintain the
bridges (which require a lot of expensive maintenance) and also subsidize the high
speed line across the river, in addition to port projects, and other projects
benefitting the economy of both sides of the Delaware. Since a limited number of
people (ie. regular commuters) use these bridges much more than others, it makes
sense that the users of the bridge should pay for it.
George Robbins
Media is bracketed by the relatively small Springfield Mall and the
mid-size Granite run mall. There's also the thing at the Media bypass
and the Blue Route, I'm not sure if that's a mall these days or not.
Haddonfield may be innocent, but I don't think you can claim Media. 8-)
--
George Robbins - now working for work: g...@netaxs.com
Net Access - seemed like the best uucp: ...!uunet!netaxs.com!grr
way to help improve service... play: g...@tharsis.com
Mike Szilagyi
a windstorm, but I try to find local-owned businesses and shop there,
rather than the big chains. Vote with my feet (and dollars). Yes
Wal-Mart is dirt cheap but at what cost. Wal-Mart uses their
mega-volume to undercut their competition. Now I really couldn't care
less if they drive the local K-Mart or Target out of business. But
their predatory pricing also drives out what few mom-and-pop stores are
left. Same goes for Home Depot etc. I would rather find a hardware or
paint store in say Lansdale, put up with the parking meters and somewhat
higher pricing, and give my business to someone that appreciates it,
rather than a corporation.
Mike Szilagyi
Exile on Market Street
<sy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's what Sandy said. Truth be told, they're almost all the same. Having
> been to Famous-Barr, L.S. Ayres, Hecht's, and Strawbridge's, they are
> essentially all alike. From the signing in the stores, to their commercials,
"This is where it gets good."
Wonder if the Denver stores are still called May D&F?
FWIW, May did business under that name in at least three cities I know of:
Cleveland, Los Angeles (May Company in both of those cities) and Denver. I
believe the Cleveland stores are now operationally under Kaufmann's
(Pittsburgh), and after May brought LA rival Robinson's, their stores there
are now called Robinson's-May.
Someone else (George Robbins?) posted about Filene's and the late Filene's
Basement. Of course, the two stores were once one -- the original Filene's
Automatic Bargain Basement was located in the basement of the main Boston
store at Summer and Washington streets. But when Federated Department
Stores (of which Edward Filene's Sons Company was a charter member) bought
Allied Stores (parent of Filene's main competitor in Boston, Jordan Marsh
Company), they were required to spin off New England properties to maintain
competition. Jordan Marsh was sold to Macy's, and the Basement (which had
opened branches in the Boston suburbs without the automatic markdown
pricing) was spun off as a separate company.
To finish this little bit of TMI, Federated (Bloomingdale's is its
flagship) purchased Macy's a few years later. At that time, Filene's was
sold to May Department Stores to maintain competition in New England.
--
Sandy Smith, University Relations / 215.898.1423 / smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Managing Editor, _Pennsylvania Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team -- Web Editor webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"That Tony Lombardo guy that you share your life with -- is he homosexual
too?"
--Late former mayor and talk-show host Frank Rizzo, to _Philadelphia Gay
News_ publisher Mark Segal on the first night of Rizzo's talk show
---------------------------(as reported in Segal's _PGN_ column 8/3/01)--
Exile on Market Street
Stephanie Winters <sjwi...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> umm, i like visiting malls, because malls are major landmarks for a
> community. Each mall is unique and defines a particular region. For me,
> it's like visiting all of the parks in Philadelphia. there is such
> diversity. Plus when it's summer, i love the air conditioned malls. Malls
> are as american as apple pie. Malls are everything. they are so important
> to defining who we are as americans. Everyone hangs out at the mall at one
> time in their life or another. Malls are so fun to walk around and watch
> people. Malls are incredible. This is where all the action is at. this is
> where people congregate on weekends!!
After the Country Club Plaza, everything else is just plain vanilla.
Yes, the malls do vary architecturally, but from the outside, most of them
aren't that much to look at. And yes, air conditioning is a godsend on
those hot-and-humid East Coast summer days, but I like stores fronting on
the streets as well.
The nation's oldest planned shopping center is both architecturally
distinctive (Spanish/Moorish Revival) and street-oriented. And even though
it too has its share of the requisite national upscale retailers (Saks
Fifth Avenue, Brooks Brothers, Polo Ralph Lauren), it also has stores
unique to its city (Halls, The Country Store, Swansons). And it has plenty
of free parking, tucked behind, under and on top of the stores.
Unfortunately for you, Stephanie, it's about 1200 miles west of here (once
I-70 joins the PA Turnpike, just follow it until you reach Kansas City).
Exile on Market Street
<sy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I actually like Pathmark. The one I shop at is a bit so-so in terms of
looks, but the selection is good
> and the prices are great.
On the price part, I can't argue.
But I was decidedly underwhelmed by the selection at the Pathmark I once
visited on Oregon Avenue in South Philly. Instead of 50 brands of
<mumble>, they had 50 different sizes of two or three brands.
The variety was better at my neighborhood Super Cruise^WFresh, even though
that store is much smaller.