Pope Francis

[Karen Molenaar Terrell]

Great quote from Pope Francis: "The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefiting the poor. But what happens instead is that when the glass gets full it magically gets bigger - nothing ever comes out for the poor."

Thoughts?

[John Stephens]

On Monday, December 16, 2013 9:18:34 PM UTC-5, Karen Wingoof wrote:

Great quote from Pope Francis: "The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefiting the poor. But what happens instead is that when the glass gets full it magically gets bigger - nothing ever comes out for the poor."

Thoughts?

Karen - Many thanks for the timely topic. 

Pope Francis is emerging as a bit of a phenomenon, not only in the Catholic Church where he serves as spiritual leader, but throughout the secular world, as well. This pope has caused such a stir, in fact, that Time Magazine has named him Person of the Year for 2013. 

As a fallen Roman Catholic and one of the befuddled flock of the forgotten faithful, I have been following Francis' regular papal pronouncements with renewed interest. And it turns out that the former Argentine nightclub bouncer Jorge Mario Bergoglio has quite a lot to say. SInce his election as the Bishop of Rome, Pope Francis has taken on the hot button issues of abortion, poverty, contraception, world hunger, priestly celibacy, child abuse, liberation theology, the role of women in the Church, homosexuality, and most recently, unfettered capitalism. He clearly stated that these are critical questions the Church can no longer ignore. With hope and optimism (qualities not always associated with Vatican dictums)  Francis has exalted Catholics to approach each of these challenges with tenderness, mercy and compassion. He has reminded Catholics that Christian duty is based on a commitment to defend human dignity, to build a peaceful coexistence between peoples and to safeguard and care for all creation. 

So, is it any wonder people are so upset? 

What's next? Feeding the hungry? Caring for the poor?

Conservative Christian groups and some Catholics have greeted Pope Francis' teachings with an odd mix of outrage and dismissal. However, this is hardly a radical departure for the Roman Catholic Church. St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas established an intellectual tradition of active commitment to social justice. Pope Leo XIII issued his encyclical letter  'On the Condition of Labor' addressing the inequities of industrialization in 1891. Pope John XXIII's 'Christianity and Social Progress' resulted in accelerated social teaching throughout the Catholic community. Oh, yeah, and there's some carpenter guy in the New Testament who keeps going on and on about love and peace. What was His name again? 

For Catholic has-beens such as myself, Francis' gentle gospel has been a glimmer of very good news. While I continue to be frustrated with the Church's hypocrisy, small-mindedness, tendency to condemn others while ignoring its own incessant scandals, and maintaining a maddening imbalance between dogma and action, I admit to a certain fondness for the rancorous old Church of Rome. I miss the ritual, the mystery, the comfort of the sacred space of the chapel. If the Roman Catholic Church were to telephone tomorrow and apologize to me personally, I would probably let bygones be bygones and give them another shot. While I genuinely welcome Francis' humility and commitment, I am aware that the Roman Catholic Church is a huge institution and no one individual, not even one chosen by God Himself, is going make major changes in a single papacy. 

Still, there is no organization on the planet more capable of doing good for humankind then the Roman Catholic Church. They have the experience, the networking, the fund-raising hutzpah, the idealistic work force and the musical ability to change the world. Pope Francis is an inspiration to a generation confounded Catholics who would like the Church to be all it can be. And it sure is great fun watching clips of Rush Limbaugh turning several shades of purple while ranting about the Pope being a Marxist.

I look forward to participating in the Philosophy and Religion Forum. 

Some of the folks here may not know that our own Karen Terrell was once the Pope (Popelina) herself. Many of us fondly remember her reign - it truly was a golden age, a virtual religious renaissance that will not be seen again.

All the Best,

Saint Sean 

 

[Karen Wingoof]

Thank you so much for joining us here, John! And thank you, too, for your really eloquent post. I especially like this part: "What's next? Feeding the hungry? Caring for the poor?" :) 

[Aardwizz]

I'm used to ignoring the Pope, but this one is growing on me rapidly.  Another quote from Pope Francis:

“Given that many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church, and others are not believers, I give this blessing from my heart, in silence, to each one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you, but knowing that each one of you is a child of God,” he told a room of journalists back in March. “May God bless you.” 

On Monday, December 16, 2013 9:18:34 PM UTC-5, Karen Wingoof wrote:

[Karen Wingoof]

Okay, I really like THAT quote, too... very gracious and inclusive... thanks, Aardwizzzz!

[Karen Wingoof]

John, you call yourself a "lapsed" Catholic - I wonder if you could share a little more about your own beliefs in religion and God. And... would you ever consider unlapsing? Or is that sort of a permanent condition? 

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 4:44:11 PM UTC-8, John Stephens wrote:

[Karen Wingoof]

I mean to address my post to "Saint Sean", of course. :)

[John Stephens]

Your Holiness -

Thank you once again for introducing me to this forum. The format is different from what I am used to so I hope I am actually posting what I believe I am posting. I'm sure there is a metaphor here related to Philosophy and Religion but I'm going to let it go.

Let me proceed to your question about 'lapsed Catholics.'

Your question is a timely one and it certainly relates to our recent discussion about Pope Francis. Through his recent statements, Pope Francis has made the Roman Catholic Church more welcoming to a generation of 'lapsed' Catholics. He has made no changes in canon law or Church policy but he has simply changed the focus on what it means to be a practicing Catholic. He has done this by returning to the most basic tenants of the faith - love, compassion, forgiveness and charity. For me, a an honest commitment to these simple values would benefit the Church, its many followers and the world we all share. 

So, to answer your question if there is any chance I might 'unlapse'  I believe that there is. G. K. Chesterton called ‘a twitch upon the thread’, that invisible cord by which Catholics are tied to the Church. I have done some volunteer work with Catholic Social Services and I have truly enjoyed my fellow volunteers. We unpack and pack canned goods and schlep it all down to a food bank. There is a great spirit of love, compassion, forgiveness, charity, and raunchy humor. Pope Francis is a popular topic and if these Catholics are any gauge, he is a welcome addition. 

My return to the occasional services and sacraments has been comforting and warmly nostalgic. My enjoyment of a particular service is always tempered by the priest celebrating the mass. Several churches and several priests have resulted in a hit or miss spiritual experience. I liked one priest - a veteran of the Catholic missions in Central America, a bit of a rebel, ironic, full of life and humor, and in his short, poetic sermons, he blesses the congregation with the very clear message that the homeless, itinerant rabbi from Nazareth made it all fairly simple - love one another, forgive yourself and others, cultivate compassion, and for His sake, go ahead and give the fella a couple of bucks even if he's sure to spend it on wine. The other side to this is the grim, parish patriarch growling judgement and admonition along with a very thinly veiled, political conservativism. The message here being that any one of us sinners who disagrees with his  theology, politics and bigotry is a poor Catholic and even worse American. I am once again a fugitive fleeing the Faith. 

In a way, Catholicism is a lot like Ireland. The company is argumentative and stubborn. The landscape is stark and unyielding. There is a great emphasis on the constant drinking of intoxicating spirits, often with no discernable purpose. But you long to go back.

There are many memories of my Catholic boyhood that I remember with great fondness - the erratic, contradictory,  Irish American family, typically dysfunctioned in turn by a hard drinking father and nurturing mother who taught us our Hail Marys along with the pagan poetry of William Butler Yeats - an upbringing that should have killed us, but instead graced and sustained us. There were the raw-knuckled, inner-city, parochial school days when you took your punches from the playground bullies along with your punches from the classroom nuns. Then, on to the Jesuits, again, the Irish, who, between even more punches - harder now, as we were young men and should be able to take it - gave us a lifelong love of learning, a healthy skepticism of all eternal truths -  Ireland and Jesuits included - and evidently, for this lad, at least,  a faith that while battered could never be totally broken.

"When I look back on my childhood I wonder how I survived it at all. It was, of course, a miserable childhood: the happy childhood is hardly worth your while. Worse than the ordinary miserable childhood is miserable Irish childhood, and worse yet is the miserable Irish Catholic childhood."

- Frank McCourt, ANGELA'S ASHES

And then my Irish Catholic childhood was quite wonderful. i loved the ritual of the mass, the mystery, the incense shrouded quiet of the chapel. My Catholicism crested around the age of six when I announced that I was going to become a priest. I believe it was that same year in first grade that I began having impure thoughts about Donna Moore. Donna was only six but I swear she had the body of a seven-year-old. Regardless, my vocational zeal was permanently waylaid. I continued to lapse until I went away to college and I began to indulge in other interests.

In the intervening years, I believe I have continued a spiritual quest. I realized that I was quite comfortable in my state of 'unknowing' and no longer required the certainties of the Church. I was very drawn to the natural world and easily recognized the Divine in all creation. I admired the wisdom in Eastern religions and knew that if I was to return to any religion, it would have to be one that accepted a variety of beliefs, the many ways of knowing God. 

So, I would say that I am continuing my search. I feel a a growing fondness for my Catholic faith. Pope Francis has certainly opened some doors and I am open to what I may find there. 

I hope you are well. 

All the Best, Saint Sean

[Karen Wingoof]

Saint Sean,

What a wonderful, articulate, eloquent post! Wow! I think you explained really well here why you left the Church, and why you feel drawn to it again. There's a weird mix of cosy warmth and harsh brutality in your description of your childhood experiences. (You are a FANTASTIC writer!)

I like that you're still searching. 

And I like the part about Donna Moore, too. 

Great quote from Angela's Ashes! I've never read that book, but I've heard really good things about it...

I have visited a Catholic church twice in my life. The first time I was in The Netherlands (1980) with my Dutch boyfriend. He brought me to his family church and told me it was okay to go up and get the wafer and wine. What he didn't tell me was that I was suppose to eat the wafer right then. I brought it back to the pew with me. I don't know - maybe I was planning to save it as a souvenir or something (?) - his sister started cracking up. She leaned over and whispered, "Karen, you're not supposed to take it home with you." :) My boyfriend and his siblings did not seem particularly religious. I think Hein might have actually been an atheist. But he wasn't conflicted about this or anything - I think church was just one of the things he did with his family. This church was 700 years old - and I could feel the history in its walls - the generations of memories it held - funerals, weddings... the oldness of it was very cool to me. The second time I went to a Catholic church was maybe six or seven years ago - went to an Easter service with a friend and her family - that was kind of cool, too. It didn't make any actual sense to me - but I liked the costumes and theatre of it. 

What other philosophies have you studied? Is there one, in particular, that has resonated with you?

Karen

[John Stephens]

Merry Christmas, Your Holiness,

And Merry Christmas to the Philosophy and Religion Group, as well.  I feel fairly safe wishing you well with this traditional seasonal greeting. I heard on the news, some station or other, I forget which, that only white people wish each other 'Merry Christmas.' I have been wishing all my friends 'Merry Christmas' for years and never realized how rude and offensive I was. 

Many thanks to Aardwizz for the helpful and timely Holiday EULA. I am having the disclaimer printed on cards at considerable expense so that I can hand out the specific terms of my holiday greeting whenever I wish someone 'Merry Christmas.' 

So, Karen, your brief encounters with Catholicism are very funny. Here are some other suggestions: Try your local Christmas Eve midnight mass but you'd better hurry on that one. Also, on October 4, the feast day of St. Francis of Assisi, there is a traditional blessing of the animals that is always fun. If the Spanish Inquisition comes to your area, try and get a ticket

So, my philosophy..."God is silent. Now if the rest of us would just shut up.". 

Over the years, I have been interested in human spirituality. As I have mentioned, I don't believe that I have been searching for or expecting to find 'the way,' I have been very content with my state of not knowing. I do believe in God and that there are many ways of knowing God. The idea of a universal spirituality or mystical core that is to be found in all of the world's great religious traditions is very attractive. In this area I have read Karen Armstrong and Wayne Teasdale. 

I have been drawn to Buddhism and I have done some reading. Certain concepts such as dharma and mindfulness resonate with me but some of it is simply too esoteric. I really admire Thich Nhat Hanh. I have read his books and I listen to his tapes. He has adapted Buddhist teachings to modern concerns and his wisdom is astounding. Likewise there are a number of Western Buddhists whose work has intrigued me. Stephen Levine's A GRADUAL AWAKENING is a terrific book. 

I read Lao Tzu's TAO TE CHING which really opened my way of looking at things. Additionally, I have found that there a number of excellent commentaries on the verses that are particularly helpful for a ponderous ex-Catholic. I really like Deng Ming-Dao's SCHOLAR WARRIOR - AN INTRODUCTION TO THE TAO IN EVERYDAY LIFE. It is a practical guide to the world's most practical guide. 

It will come as no surprise that I have been drawn to the writings of some renegade priests. I was curious about the experiences of other lapsed Catholics. Thomas Moore's CARE OF THE SOUL is a classic. Matthew Fox is an ex-priest who actually went a few well publicized rounds with Pope Benedict around the time of your earth shaking abdication. His book ORIGINAL BLESSING is a brave book and a wonderful guide to the spiritual path.

I am a fan of NPR's Krista Tippet's SPEAKING OF FAITH & ON BEING and I remain a faithful listener to her podcasts. As an innovative broadcaster, I think she has provided an important service. Her guests come from every walk of life: science, education, politics, the arts, and they offer very personal reflections about how their faith has affected their lives and work. 

Karen, I remember you once introduced the topic of art and creativity as a process of spiritual discovery. I really agree with that idea. I have been blessed with a career and a life that has given me many opportunities in that area. That's a topic I would love to discuss some more.

And Karen, I don't care if you're white or not. I want to wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas. Thanks for being there.

All the Very Best,

Saint Sean, Patron Saint of the Lacto-Intolerant

[Karen Wingoof]

And a most merry Christmas to you, too, Saint Sean! Thank you, once again, for a really eloquent and thoughtful post... I am very much enjoying these conversations. :)

Karen

[Aardwizz]

I remember back when I was a Christian Zen Taoist (or was that a Zen Taoist Christian?  I was never sure which order was most accurate).  That was before I strayed into Pantheistic Multi-person solipsism, and now into Bokononism.  I wonder what I'll wind up believing tomorrow....

I know what Karen means by feeling the old-ness of a Catholic church.  Even in recently-constructed ones (let alone those that have been around for centuries), you can feel  the age and history of the rituals. I've found myself drawn to the Catholic church like no other.  If one were to believe in reincarnation, I must have been a devout Catholic in one or more previous lives.

 I had the pleasure of going to Italy for vacation last year (Venice & Rome) and got to see a lot of old churches, and saw the full history of Christianity through its art and architecture.  Seeing the empty niches in the Pantheon one day, and then seeing all the statues lining the roof of the Vatican, and knowing where some of them came from  Seeing how the character of Mary and Venus were deliberately merged, to elevate her from being a simple Jewish mother (as depicted in earlier works) to being a goddess in her own right.  especially by Venetian artists, as Venice has a particular attachment to Venus, due probably to the similarity in their names and relationship with the sea, thus giving them some sort of divine right to lead, by proxy.  The cynic in me says that this was done to appease women (who are the core of the faithful) who felt left out of the "Apostle's Club", even though Jesus himself seemed to have been an equal opportunity messiah.  It's hard (for me) to see history and not see the politics of the time, turning in the background.

Which circles back to Pope Francis;  I'll be watching him with great interest, as he tries to save the Church by aligning it with modern culture, while simultaneously preserving its rich and deep heritage.

õ¿õ¬

[Karen Wingoof]

What I'm wondering is how in the world he got elected Pope?! I mean... that was a pretty gutsy move on the cardinals' part, right? Do you think they knew what they were actually bringing into power? 

Karen