TPQs (9/17): Group 1 Posts, Group 2 Responds

[Becko Copenhaver]

[hdon...@lclark.edu]

To Plato's "The Myth of Gyges": Glaucon's representation of his theory did not, to me, seem to have very much proof or evidence. So I wonder, to what extent can human beings be assumed to always do the worst? Without consequences, would society truly evolve into one in which immoral actions are the norm?

To Shoemaker's "Egoisms": If ethical egoism truly does encompass all the criterion used for evaluating ethical theories, can it truly be said that ethical egoism is the "best" ethical theory? Or must we view it, as Shoemaker argued, as a "challenge to all ethical theories"?

[ega...@lclark.edu]

The Myth of Gyges: I agree that Glaucon did not present much proof or evidence, which is addressed in Shoemaker's essay 'Egoisms', for example, "how does being invisible help someone seduce a queen?" (pg. 21). I think that the answer to your question is also answered to an extent in Shoemaker's article, where he talks about the "Prisoner's Dilemma", where if both prisoners took the course which would benefit them the most, they would ultimately end up doing damage to themselves. Shoemaker seems to be refuting Glaucon's argument by saying that often, the course that would most benefit someone is following a more REE approach, wherein it ultimately benefits the person to follow the rules in which they can prosper the most, thereby cooperating with others.

Egoisms: Shoemaker's argument is that Ethical Egoism does not adhere to the rules of Internal support or publicity, but where Ethical Egoism perhaps fails to meet the criteria, Rule Ethical Egoism fills the gaps. He also states, in the concluding paragraph, that Ethical Egoism does not "escape more sophisticated worries" (pg.35). I think his main point is that Ethical Egoism, and possibly to a greater extent, Rule Ethical Egoism, may not be the best ethical theory, but it can be counted "among the pantheon of more 'mainstream' ethical theories" (pg. 35).

[beaub]

THE MYTH OF GYGES: 

"...the suffering of injury so far exceeds in badness the good of inflicting it that when men have done wrong to each other and suffered it, and have had a taste of both, those who are unable to avoid the latter and practise the former decide that it is profitable to come to an agreement with each other neither to inflict injury not to suffer it...This, they say, is the origin and essence of justice; it stands between the best and the worst" (18). 

Do you agree with Plato's statement here? Is justice simply a middle-ground between the best and the worst, or the good and the bad? Is man really as self-interested as Plato claims so as to believe "the best being to do wrong without paying the penalty" [page 18] or do yo think we deserve more credit than this?

EGOISMS:

Besides Mother Teresa, the suicide bomber, or the supposedly selfless soldier who sacrifices himself to face others, can you think of other popular examples or any other social roles people have adopted that fit with Shoemaker's examples proving psychological egoism to be false? 

[mblak...@lclark.edu]

Egoisms: Shoemaker suggests that Mother Teresa, suicide bombers, and soldiers who jump on hand grenades to save their fellows may stand as counterexamples to ethical egoism, as they gain no direct benefit from their actions. The first two examples (and possibly the third) involve deeply religious individuals. Is it possible that--while these individuals may not experience any benefit for their actions in this lifetime--their actions may be be based around self-interest in their afterlife? How do the concepts of heaven and the afterlife play into ethical egoism? 

Gyges: Plato states that, "...the suffering of injury so far exceeds in badness the good of inflicting it that when men have done wrong to each other and suffered it...those who are unable to avoid the latter and practice the former decide...neither to inflict injury nor to suffer it" (18). This statement initially was rather confusing. Clearly the "badness" and "good" referred to here is not in relation to the morality of the inflictor but the self-interest of the inflicted. How would you describe the overall meaning of bad/good in this passage? 

[sbea...@lclark.edu]

TPQ's:

Egoisms: Ethical egoism can be defined as acting to bring about the best possible consequences for oneself.  Plato argued that justice originated when two self-interested men who both want to benefit themselves had suffered at the hands of one other and came to an agreement or middle ground in which both could profit by working together instead of wronging each other. Interestingly, societies formed as populations increased, and if Plato was right about how egoistic people are, what do you think will happen to the societal moral code as population continues to skyrocket? 

The Myth of Gyges: How do you think the value of equality among people plays a role in determining who leads a more happy life between the unjust and the just men? Do you think that being visible makes a difference to the unjust conscience when he has to live with himself after doing wrong to people around him? Long term, how do you think the two would feel about their lives after all is said and done?

[Ian Dechow]

If do to the nature of the world mankind inevitably discovers a propensity for propriety vis a vis justice, does he not always settle on a best fit line to his culture?  Or does he merely accept culture as a means to an end, another tool in his struggle to be good, do wrong?

[Becko Copenhaver]

Good questions - is Glaucon's position unintuitive?  Why?  Is it really true that EE meets all the criteria of adequacy?  I thought that it was weak on at least two...

[Becko Copenhaver]

This seems exactly right.

[Becko Copenhaver]

Great questions - don't forget to supply a possible answer yourself so you can give us a sense of what you are thinking.

[Becko Copenhaver]

Good questions -  I hope someone tackles them here.

[Becko Copenhaver]

Good questions - how does the question about egoism get answered by the Prisoner's Dilemma - I think there is something important there.

[Becko Copenhaver]

Good shot Ian, but we should focus more specifically on the text and readings - there are some great examples of that on this thread!

[eh...@lclark.edu]

Response To Plato's "The Myth of Gyges":

I was struggling with this question as well.  I kept trying to take a step back and truly imagine what I would do, or what I potentially would be capable of, if no punishments for my actions existed.  It was an interesting thought experiment, for I truly believe that I would not be capable of anything of a nature that would cause harm to another individual, based solely upon my own existing moral code.  Perhaps this code would change over time of being conditioned to know no consequences.  If a small child were given this ring through which they could invisibly act on their own free will, would their inhibitions equal that of an adult who had previous formed their own moral code?  An interesting psychological study would be to analyze the strength of an individual's allegiance to their own moral code vs. that which the morals of society enforce.