Rules Clarification Thread

[DM (Matt)]

Ranged Attack into Melee (Without Precise Shot) and Soft Cover

Did some research and the -4 for firing into melee without precise shot, and the +4AC bonus granted by soft cover DO stack.  So there is a cumulative -4 to hit and +4 to enemy AC in this situation.  Just wanted to let ya know.  

Feel free to use this thread to ask any rules questions you might have.  Thanks!

[Ronald Bender]

But this does not mean that the target automatically gets soft cover just because it is 'in melee', right? Only that if they have both then they get both bonuses...right?

And in regards to being considered as 'engaged in melee', the rules say this:

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee

If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

Does this mean that if I am attacking with a reach weapon, that target will be 10' away. And since they are 10' away, someone shooting an arrow at them at the same time as I am attacking them would NOT get a -4 to hit?

---

From: DM (Matt) <mnick...@gmail.com>
To: PFdagge...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:52 PM
Subject: Rules Clarification Thread

[Matt Nickolette]

No, soft cover only counts if someone or something is in the arrows
path (Pick a corner and draw a straight line to each of the corners in
the enemies square, if any of those lines cross an obstacle they have
cover).

I did not know about the 10 foot rule for Engaging in Melee. Thanks
for showing it to me!

[DM (Matt)]

" Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. "

So light doesn't cancel Darkvision.  If its within 60', you can see it!

> To: PFdaggerdaleFR@googlegroups.com

[Ragnivald]

I just want to clearly state the rules on thrown splash weapons since I will be using them a lot. 

Using Splash Weapons

Make a ranged attack against an unoccupied grid intersection (AC 5 plus range penalties.)

You Hit: Creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt splash damage. No creatures take direct hit damage.

You Miss: First, roll 1d8 to determine the misdirection of the throw.

1 - Falls short (straight line towards the thrower.)

2 through 8 - Count around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction.

Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the number of range increments thrown. The thrown object lands that number of spaces away from the target.

Finally, the item deals splash damage (if any) to all creatures in the square it lands in and in all adjacent squares.

[Matt Nickolette]

Didn't know about the distance if you miss.  Thanks for the info!

[DM (Matt)]

So a general thought on rules.  We tend to bring up rules in the game and think in terms of rules way too often.  No only does this break immersion from the game, it also slows down combat.  I've been thinking about it a lot and I've figured out where the problem stems from.  Me.  I keep telling you guys, okay you fire the arrow but that's a +4 to their ac due to soft cover, and a -4 to your because you don't have precise shot, blah blah blah.  It's unnecessary and I need your help to stop speaking in rules all the time.  This will help you guys to do the same.  So from this point on lets do it like this.  You add up all of your bonus' and negatives (Including precise shot, feats, spell bonus', what ever) give me that final number and i'll tell you if it hits (I'll be adding in cover since that grants bonus' to the defenders ac) and we leave it at that.  You wont know if my AC goes up due to spells or what ever else, and I can't keep track of all the things that raise yours.  Lets just trust each other and if were wrong so what.  Were here to just have fun anyways.  If I make a ruling on something lets just go with it.  Write down any rules questions you have a we can bring them up during a break or after the game.  Only challenge a rule if its going to cause a party wipe.  I think we will have a better time and get through a ton more content if we start getting into this mindset of the rules are secondary to fun.  I need to work on this cause i've become a rules lawyer, and i think ive brushed off on you guys as well.  What say you adventurers?

[Jacob Armour]

Well it has come up a few times more last game then not but with out rules we would have no game. Personally not trying to bash you Matt but I think you take it more personal when we ask you  about it but then on our attack I'll see you saying it. Example I attack and you look it's a miss there is soft cover. Then you attack with your ranged not giving soft cover to one of ours. Then again it all comes back to talking about the rules. If you just say miss or hit. Then we would have to be fine with it. Vs well he has. Cover so thes a plus 4. Then arguments break out for the next hour blah blah.     

Jake

[Matt Nickolette]

I'm not saying we use no rules.  I'm just saying we de-emphasize them.  I know i'm the worst offender of this.  I bring up numbers in the middle of describing actions and I need your help to stop doing that.  So lets just leave it as hit and miss and keep the combat flowing.  Sometimes i make a mistake in my or your favor, but unless it is a party wipe situation, is it really that big of a deal?  

[Jacob Armour]

Meh yea and no on whether it matters. Because I don't want a tpk. But I ran in and took 40 points of damage. You didnt see me complain I dropped and that was it. Had enough faith that they could pull it off.  Not gonna argue with your judgment but I will help point things out to help remind you. Like soft cover. Sometimes you get so into what's happening as do all of us at some point to look over the small details. Like taking a 5 foot step for aop on casting

Jake

[Matt Nickolette]

Side note:  Please print up all spells and alchemical items you plan on using in the game.  I want to minimize or hopefully kill altogether looking up things in the middle of combat.  

[Zack Dobson]

Here is what I feel is the direction we should try to move in; YOU figure out if YOUR character (or NPC if you are the DM) has soft cover, cover, partial cover, fatigue, poison, shooting into melee, being a dwarf, or any other penalties or bonuses to the check or statistic at hand and take it into account yourself; because this affects YOUR stats. The words "cover" or "soft cover" should not be used unless Matt specifically asks you why your AC is 21. We will to trust each other in following the rules as much as we can. We are all experienced enough. When you make a roll simply state the total with any modifications which effect YOU and the other opposing person will calculate the DC or AC or opposing role with all the modifiers that affect him. This is the same thing Matt said but restated here. We should try to stay away from any "Rulesy" words unless it is absolutely necessary.

[Kaylesh (Ron)]

A possible alteration of the "shooting into melee" rule. (Found this on Reddit)

When firing a ranged weapon into melee, the shooter is given a chance to choose whether he wants to take a -4 to his roll.

If he chooses to take the -4, he has no risk of hitting an adjacent ally.

If he chooses NOT to take the -4, the attack is rolled normally. If it MISSES the target, the attack is re-rolled against the adjacent ally (determine randomly if more than one).

What does everyone think about that?

[Matt Nickolette]

I like it! If you have the precise shot feat, this wont matter. But
for anyone else its a cool option. I'm down with it.

[Kenneth]

I am for it.

Sent from my iPhone

[Kenneth]

I just thought of this- since the ally wouldn't expect to be shot at by the ally, i think they should be flat footed to the possible attack from the allies miss.

Sent from my iPhone

[Jacob Armour]

I don't like thIs! I'd feel like I would get punished for them missing. Since I'm mellee I disagree. The shooter should take the penalty not an ally

Jake

=

[Zack Dobson]

I would rather not implement this rule because it means we have more rules cluttering game time. The simpler the better. If this rule is implemented then the flat footed thing makes no sense to me. Is the enemy expected the projectile from God knows where? Why isn't he flat footed?

[Kenneth]

Explanation- enemy is focused on range and melee from his enemies so he would perceive any threats coming at him. An Ally is focused on attacks from range and melee from his enemies, so he would perceive those. But neither is expecting an attack from their own team, thats why I think it would be against the flat footed AC. 

If no one agrees that is fine, but i still agree with the suggestion from Ron. I think if your attacking from range you should make the choice to adjust your shot to either be safer for your ally ( -4 to the roll) or go for the enemy with less regard for the ally engaged in melee (the roll for attack against the adjacent ally).

I don't think adding any of this bogs the game down, you still let the DM know your full attack roll and he would still describe if you hit or not. 

My vote is for it with or without my added suggestion. 

DM I await your ruling.  

Sent from my iPhone

[Kaylesh (Ron)]

Well, I was just wanting to throw it out there and see what everyone thinks. It has its good and bad points obviously and it is 'another' rule.

If its not something that we want to do then I won't be offended or anything!

[DM (Matt)]

My vote is you guys vote on it.  :)  I personally like the rule and I dont think it clutters things.  Its a gamble you can take if you dont have precise shot. If we did implement the rule you wouldn't have to use it.  You could just always take the -4 and nothing is different.  But alas this is our game so I ask what you as players want.  Looks like we have 2 for and 2 against.  Josh cook shall be the deciding factor unless one of you change your opinion. 

[Zack Dobson]

I am fine with it--I think concealment would be a better route--but only as long as everyone retains there dexterity bonus to AC. It isn't a sneak attack both characters see the arrow coming.

[Jacob Armour]

I'm against it 100 percent I'm sure if I was ranged I would think otherwise but I'm not and I just see Ron's character hitting me in the back with arrows a lot. No offense Ron you just roll low.

Jake

[Matt Nickolette]

haha. BTW precise shot and this rule would only come into play if you
are within 5' of the enemy. If you're attacking at reach then you
would have no chance of being hit by an ally.

[Kaylesh (Ron)]

LOL nah man, I would just take the -4 and not worry about it...

[Matt Nickolette]

I dont know why you're worried Jake. Ron would NEVER roll high enough
to hit your AC. Plus you're a movable wall, flat footed means nothing
to you.

[DM (Matt)]

How to handle blindness:

Zach did you know all this?  I never knew about having to pinpoint the target with blindness.  I thought you could just pick a square and take the 50% miss chance.

Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Blinded creatures can't run or charge.

All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach. For ranged attacks or spells against a foe whose location is not pinpointed, roll to determine which adjacent square the blindedcreature is facing; its attack is directed at the closest target that lies in that direction.

A blinded creature loses its Dexterity modifier to AC (if positive) and takes a –2 penalty to AC.

A blinded creature takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks, including any with an armor check penalty. A creature blinded by darkness automatically fails any skill check relying on vision.

Creatures blinded by darkness cannot use gaze attacks and are immune to gaze attacks.

A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from theblinded creature).

A blinded creature can grope about to find unseen creatures. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent squares using a standard action. If an unseen target is in the designated square, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has pinpointed the unseen creature's current location. If the unseen creature moves, its location is once again unknown.

If a blinded creature is struck by an unseen foe, the blinded character pinpoints the location of the creature that struck him (until the unseen creature moves, of course). The only exception is if the unseen creature has a reach greater than 5 feet (in which case the blinded character knows the location of the unseen opponent, but has not pinpointed him) or uses a ranged attack (in which case the blinded character knows the general direction of the foe, but not his location).

A creature with the scent ability automatically pinpoints unseen creatures within 5 feet of its location.