FW: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami

[Taj Hashmi]

Worth watching  -- Maududi's son corroborates the thesis that the Jamaat-i-Islami was/is a fascist party. He also reveals that his father never allowed his children to come near the Jamaat. JI in Pakistan is under the Jamiat-ul-Ulama (Deobandhi so-called Wahhabis) in league with the ISI under CIA's payroll. It is noteworthy that Maududi's son blames fascist Jamaat cadres for attacks on Bhashani and Mujib in Pakistan (in 1970). He also singles out Khurram Murad (a prominent JI leader in Pakistan) who in 1971 was in East Pakistan and was responsible in the promotion of al Badr and al Shams and is said to have killed Bengalis with his own hand.

Sayyid Farooq Maududi believes that if the JI ever comes to power in Pakistan, that would signal a fascist takeover of the country.

Cheers!

Taj Hashmi

---

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:51:01 +0100
Subject: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
From: bill...@gmail.com
To: bill...@gmail.com

Dear All,

A historic interview with Farooq Haider Maududi, son of the founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami of Pakistan, Abul Ala Maududi, is worth listening to. It is in Urdu and that is a pity as many would not be able to benefit from it. The gist of the interview is that his father founded a fascist party and he thinks states based on a religious ideology are always oppressive. I have heard that a son of Khomeini also had second thoughts about his father's fanatical Islamic state and now many Saudis say the same about their country. I do hope people learn from Haider Farooq Maududi's interview. Please refer to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=763DfYwyyKQ&sns=em

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[reaz talukder]

Dear Hashmi,

Very interesting fact to know. Who is Mr. Istiaq? Could you please let me know.

All the best.

Reaz/Manchester

---

From: taj_h...@hotmail.com
To: ahrar...@bhsu.edu; ahr...@earthlink.net; dark...@yahoo.com; l...@spryservices.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; bark...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; has...@msn.com; hasana...@yahoo.co.uk; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; est...@hotmail.com; cs...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; mahbu...@ieee.org; ashra...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; jhela...@yahoo.com; min...@yahoo.com; enamu...@yahoo.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sahm...@hotmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; m.al...@gmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; a_b...@hotmail.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; nizam...@sky.com; hniz...@hotmail.com; cban...@shaw.ca; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; drahmadra...@hotmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; tahir...@hotmail.com; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; imran.a...@gmail.com; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; kazi...@mail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; farida...@hotmail.com; afar...@adb.org; adnan....@gmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; ha...@hasanmahmud.com; matin...@sbcglobal.net; sha...@gmail.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; mbim...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; jil...@ananash.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; alishah...@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; awahi...@gmail.com; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; mabisp...@hotmail.com
CC: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com
Subject: FW: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:34:07 -0500

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[Taj Hashmi]

Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed is a renowned Swedish Pakistani academic -- is an emeritus professor of political science at Stockholm University. A very well-published liberal secular intellectual having full sympathy with Bangladesh. Most importantly, he is a close friend.

Taj Hashmi

---

From: reazta...@hotmail.com
To: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:10:16 +0000

[mahbubkhan@ieee.org ,]

Hello Ishtiaq,
 
Thanks for sharing the video of Maududi's son, which is quite revealing, based on the comments by Taj Hashmi in english, because I dont know Urdu. However, I find your following comment about Iqbal quite aggressive. Can you please defend yourself?
 
I have since a long time come to the conclusion that he (Iqbal) could be quite superficial and even outright reactionary.
 

Regards,
 
Mahbub Khan
California, USA
408-859-3566-cell
mahbu...@ieee.org
 
 

---

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:50:15 +0100
Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
From: bill...@gmail.com
To: ahr...@earthlink.net
CC: taj_h...@hotmail.com; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; dark...@yahoo.com; l...@spryservices.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; bark...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; has...@msn.com; hasana...@yahoo.co.uk; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; est...@hotmail.com; cs...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; mahbu...@ieee.org; ashra...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; jhela...@yahoo.com; min...@yahoo.com; enamu...@yahoo.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sahm...@hotmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; m.al...@gmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; a_b...@hotmail.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; nizam...@sky.com; hniz...@hotmail.com; cban...@shaw.ca; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; drahmadra...@hotmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; tahir...@hotmail.com; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; imran.a...@gmail.com; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; kazi...@mail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; farida...@hotmail.com; afar...@adb.org; adnan....@gmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; ha...@hasanmahmud.com; matin...@sbcglobal.net; sha...@gmail.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; mbim...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; jil...@ananash.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; alishah...@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; awahi...@gmail.com; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; mabisp...@hotmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com

I agree with where you end your email. The rest is something I have learnt not to discuss beyond expressing my opinion. The fact is there is more confusion in our part of the world about Islam because of Iqbal and other romantics while TTP and others take us to the logic conclusion of all such utterings. As a moral and private belief Islam like so many other commonsense ideas about moderation and so on is fine. 

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

On 10 January 2013 16:26, Ehsan Ahrari <ahr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I agree with the overall thrust of your comments; however, Iqbal was anything but superficial.  The limitations that the art of poetry carries with it in terms of, at times, superficially in explaining intricate concepts and ideas were very much present in his otherwise highly imaginative poetry.  But Allama was nothing if he was not deep, highly ingenious, inspired, and full of his passion to create a verbal picture of Mard-e-momin.  

 

Whether Islam should be part of governance or not is a topic that is being mulled over by millions of Arabs right now a la the Arab awakening.  Turkey has yet to resolve the issue of how much Islam/secularism in its own polity, while Indonesia seems to have a found a balance between Islam and secularism, at least for now.  So, Iqbal’s sher that I quoted below was just my way of thinking out loud. 

 

While I am at it, I am convinced that Pakistan’s Islamiat has really been grotesquely disfigured by the likes of TTP and AQ and it should be radically altered.  JI and other Islamists parties played (and continue to play) a large role in it.  Maulana Azad, after all, was right about the fallacy of the two-nation theory

 

From: Ishtiaq Ahmed [mailto:bill...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:46 AM
To: Ehsan Ahrari
Cc: Taj Hashmi; Ahrar Ahmad; Shah Jahan PFC; Luthfur Choudhury; Sajjad Hussain; Barkat Khuda; Col Aziz; Wali Mondal; Enamul Choudhury; HasanZillurRahim PFC; Hasanat PFC; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; Tareq Ahmed; Sajjad Karim; Fida Kamal; Mahbub PFC; Ashraf Khan; Musabbir Khan; Jawed Hilali; Mintu Haq; Enam Chowdhury; Abdul Waseh; Salehuddin Ahmed; azads...@yahoo.com; Moyeedul Allem; Mumtaz Iqbal; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul momen; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury; Abdullah Baqi; Mustafa Chowdhury; Jamal Musnshi; Nizam Ahmad; Haider Nizamani; Chin Banerjee; Iftikhar Malik; Ahmad Rashid Malik; Ahmad Khalid; LtG Tahir Qazi; Jawaid Ahmed; Imran Ahmad; Osmani PFC; Showkat Kazi; Farid Islam; farida majid; Ahmed Faruque; Adnan Mahbub; Arman Mahbub; Ishita Mehjabin; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman; Hasanat Murtaza; Hasan Mahmud; Matinuddin Ahmed; Shamsul Chowdhury; Hubert Rozario; Shahid Hafiz Dadu; Ahmed Kamal; MBI Munshi; Hassan Mansur; jil...@ananash.com; Shamsher M Chowdhury; alishah...@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; Zulfiqar Sadeque; Abu Nasr Wahid; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; Rizwan Islam; mabisp...@hotmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami

 

I think we have to learn to enjoy Iqbal for his extra-ordinary talent to compose very moving poetry - about his message or messages I have since a long time come to the conclusion that he could be quite superficial and even outright reactionary. On the whole one can interpret this verse to mean that politics must conform to some ethical and moral principle and that is correct.

Best,

 

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

 

On 10 January 2013 02:21, Ehsan Ahrari <ahr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I heard the entire interview.  It is indeed a sad affair.  The brutality of the JI against the East Pakistanis has been well known; however, it sounds so ominous when son of Maulana Maududi speaks with so much candor. 

 

Ishtiaq: Thanks for brining the attention to us all.  I wonder whether Allama Iqbal would still say:

 

jalale padshahi ho kih jamhoori tamasha ho
Juda ho Deen Siyasat say to reh jatee hai Changay-zi

 

Regards,

 

Ehsan Ahrari

[Iftikhar Malik]

I do feel that the infighting among Syed Maududi's sons is quite agonising, though much less revealing. But that is what happens, as they say: nothing grows under a banyan tree. I heard Dr. Farooq Hiader once in a meeting in London many many years back. He wasn't that denunciatory. I will take his comments about his father keeping his own sons away from Jamaat with a pinch of salt. I did get a chance to see the interview of his other sibling with Mr. Amanullah in Lahore and he is even more denunciatory of his Dr. brother. So this infighting must caution us but we shouldn't read too much into it as Maududi's own writings and their impact along with how the JI came about and what happened to it via the IJT are historical facts. The recent biography of Marayam Jameelah by Deborah Baker (Mrs. Amitav Ghosh) is quite sad but deconstructionist as well. The American author, Mrs. Ghosh, seems to be sympathising with her fellow Muslim American writer (Maryam Jameelah)  plus is also getting at her as well in typical post-9/11 frame of mind. Even the reproduction of her sketches in the book, The Convert, are quite meanfingul. A tinge of bitterness towards Pakistan via India (as she happens to be Mrs. Ghosh!) refuses to go away. But Maudoodi, in this biography, still comes out as a quiet, committed yet very enigmatic person.
 Irrespective of our own ideological likes or dislikes, I do feel that something like Muslim democracy has to/must happen and until then the path to that objective remains rocky, volatile and taxing. The diversity of Muslim strands, despite my innate abhorrence against some violent manifestations, is a powerful and no less significant phenomenon. Europe, North America, India, Russia, Israel and so on, in most cases, havn't reached a post-religion state once for all, so why to expect that from the Muslim regions? We do need a more balanced approach in our acdemic debates as we can avoid seeing all these socio-political phenomena  merely as black and white; istead more than fifty shades of grey stare at us and we can't ignore them.
On Iqbal, I do enjoy his poetry, his romance(s) and his questioning in sufi way. I sometimes tend to see him Rumi-like in search of his Shams. That is where a leftist historian like Victor Kiernan and several others stood beholden to Iqbal. Narrowing him merely to the role of an eminent poet or building him into Mr. know-all will not help us either. Plus, I wonder why in our ctitical evaluation we have to become demolition men! Shouldn't we move on!
Hope I have not annoyed anyone.
Regards,
Iftikhar

On 10 January 2013 15:26, Ehsan Ahrari <ahr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I agree with the overall thrust of your comments; however, Iqbal was anything but superficial.  The limitations that the art of poetry carries with it in terms of, at times, superficially in explaining intricate concepts and ideas were very much present in his otherwise highly imaginative poetry.  But Allama was nothing if he was not deep, highly ingenious, inspired, and full of his passion to create a verbal picture of Mard-e-momin.  

 

Whether Islam should be part of governance or not is a topic that is being mulled over by millions of Arabs right now a la the Arab awakening.  Turkey has yet to resolve the issue of how much Islam/secularism in its own polity, while Indonesia seems to have a found a balance between Islam and secularism, at least for now.  So, Iqbal’s sher that I quoted below was just my way of thinking out loud. 

 

While I am at it, I am convinced that Pakistan’s Islamiat has really been grotesquely disfigured by the likes of TTP and AQ and it should be radically altered.  JI and other Islamists parties played (and continue to play) a large role in it.  Maulana Azad, after all, was right about the fallacy of the two-nation theory

 

From: Ishtiaq Ahmed [mailto:bill...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:46 AM
To: Ehsan Ahrari
Cc: Taj Hashmi; Ahrar Ahmad; Shah Jahan PFC; Luthfur Choudhury; Sajjad Hussain; Barkat Khuda; Col Aziz; Wali Mondal; Enamul Choudhury; HasanZillurRahim PFC; Hasanat PFC; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; Tareq Ahmed; Sajjad Karim; Fida Kamal; Mahbub PFC; Ashraf Khan; Musabbir Khan; Jawed Hilali; Mintu Haq; Enam Chowdhury; Abdul Waseh; Salehuddin Ahmed; azads...@yahoo.com; Moyeedul Allem; Mumtaz Iqbal; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul momen; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury; Abdullah Baqi; Mustafa Chowdhury; Jamal Musnshi; Nizam Ahmad; Haider Nizamani; Chin Banerjee; Iftikhar Malik; Ahmad Rashid Malik; Ahmad Khalid; LtG Tahir Qazi; Jawaid Ahmed; Imran Ahmad; Osmani PFC; Showkat Kazi; Farid Islam; farida majid; Ahmed Faruque; Adnan Mahbub; Arman Mahbub; Ishita Mehjabin; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman; Hasanat Murtaza; Hasan Mahmud; Matinuddin Ahmed; Shamsul Chowdhury; Hubert Rozario; Shahid Hafiz Dadu; Ahmed Kamal; MBI Munshi; Hassan Mansur; jil...@ananash.com; Shamsher M Chowdhury; alishah...@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; Zulfiqar Sadeque; Abu Nasr Wahid; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; Rizwan Islam; mabisp...@hotmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami

 

I think we have to learn to enjoy Iqbal for his extra-ordinary talent to compose very moving poetry - about his message or messages I have since a long time come to the conclusion that he could be quite superficial and even outright reactionary. On the whole one can interpret this verse to mean that politics must conform to some ethical and moral principle and that is correct.

Best,

 

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

 

On 10 January 2013 02:21, Ehsan Ahrari <ahr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I heard the entire interview.  It is indeed a sad affair.  The brutality of the JI against the East Pakistanis has been well known; however, it sounds so ominous when son of Maulana Maududi speaks with so much candor. 

 

Ishtiaq: Thanks for brining the attention to us all.  I wonder whether Allama Iqbal would still say:

 

jalale padshahi ho kih jamhoori tamasha ho
Juda ho Deen Siyasat say to reh jatee hai Changay-zi

 

Regards,

 

Ehsan Ahrari

 

From: Taj Hashmi [mailto:taj_h...@hotmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 7:34 PM
To: Ahrar Ahmad; Ehsan Ahrari; Shah Jahan PFC; Luthfur Choudhury; Sajjad Hussain; Barkat Khuda; Col Aziz; Wali Mondal; Enamul Choudhury; HasanZillurRahim PFC; Hasanat PFC; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; Tareq Ahmed; Sajjad Karim; Fida Kamal; Mahbub PFC; Ashraf Khan; Musabbir Khan; Jawed Hilali; Mintu Haq; Enam Chowdhury; Abdul Waseh; Salehuddin Ahmed; azads...@yahoo.com; Moyeedul Allem; Mumtaz Iqbal; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul momen; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury; Abdullah Baqi; Mustafa Chowdhury; Jamal Musnshi; Nizam Ahmad; Haider Nizamani; Chin Banerjee; Iftikhar Malik; Ahmad Rashid Malik; Ahmad Khalid; LtG Tahir Qazi; Jawaid Ahmed; Imran Ahmad; Osmani PFC; Showkat Kazi; Farid Islam; farida majid; Ahmed Faruque; Adnan Mahbub; Arman Mahbub; Ishita Mehjabin; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman; Hasanat Murtaza; Hasan Mahmud; Matinuddin Ahmed; Shamsul Chowdhury; Hubert Rozario; Shahid Hafiz Dadu; Ahmed Kamal; MBI Munshi; Hassan Mansur; jil...@ananash.com; Shamsher M Chowdhury; alishah...@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; Zulfiqar Sadeque; Abu Nasr Wahid; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; Rizwan Islam; mabisp...@hotmail.com
Cc: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com

 

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Professor Iftikhar H. Malik

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[Ali Shaheen]

I'm no Iqbal scholar beyond an interest in the guy to whom I owe my name and have some appreciation and admiration for the work that I am familiar with.  I read somewhere that Iqbal was influenced by, and an admirer of, Nietsche - perhaps that is where the reactionary part comes from.  Also his emphasis on self-reliance and "khudi" while admirable in many ways could suggest a somewhat superficial analysis, and not enough emphasis on the sociopolitical and economic contexts.  Too much khudi can lead to blaming the victim.

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Sorry friends, I have not time to defend myself - in fact don't feel obliged to do that at all. You find great solace and inspiration in Iqbal, well and good. You don't to defend it before me.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Iftikhar Malik]

Come on Ishtiaq! Don't feel exasperated so soon. People like me read all your messages and pieces and with due appreciation so nothing wrong in reading ours as well---once in a blue moon. In the very first place, 'you asked for it'.
Having a mature discussion means and solicits tolerance and I am sure we academics will be the last people on earth to see the world only either in black or white nor should we expect everyone else to agree with us. We agree to disagree. It is not a question of being Iqbal lovers or not; it is to do with thought processes, my dear fellow!
Have a pleasant and peaceful weekend!
Iftikhar

-

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Dear Iftikhar,

I have written hundreds of time on Iqbal and you are familiar with my arguments. A man who beats his chest to express grief when Queen Victoria died and who kept quiet when Jallianwala Bagh happened is no inspiration to me. Also, the whole fascist idea of conquest on which the Taliban now ride emanates from the romantic celebration of 'bher-e-zulmaat mein dohraa diye ghoorey hamney'. Iqbal had no central idea or philosophy and much of what he wrote was a popular version of German conservative philosophy out of which came Nazism.

When Jallianwala happened Tagore surrendered his knighthood, Iqbal got his in 1922. Enough for me.

Cheers,

ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Dear Iftikhar,


I have written hundreds of time on Iqbal and you are familiar with my
arguments. A man who beats his chest to express grief when Queen Victoria
died and who kept quiet when Jallianwala Bagh happened is no inspiration to
me. Also, the whole fascist idea of conquest on which the Taliban now ride
emanates from the romantic celebration of 'bher-e-zulmaat mein dohraa diye
ghoorey hamney'. Iqbal had no central idea or philosophy and much of what
he wrote was a popular version of German conservative philosophy out of

which came Nazism. To all of us his message was to become exemplary Muslims but for his son he employed a European governess to make his a cultured gentleman. 

When Jallianwala happened Tagore surrendered his knighthood, Iqbal got his

in 1922. Enough for me. Where is the khudi in all this. 

As for his poetry it captivated me till I began to think for myself and that was when I had just joined the MA classes. 

Cheers,
ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

On 11 January 2013 10:46, Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk> wrote:

[Farida Majid]

       Ishtiaq is spot on about Iqbal and I agree with his observation:<< Iqbal had no central idea or philosophy and much of what he wrote was a popular version of German conservative philosophy out of which came Nazism. >> In fact. the whole bunch of them --Iqbal, Gandhi, Jinnah, Nehru, Tagore, etc. were all aglow with European Enlightenment whose influence, according to Hannah Arendt, gave rise to the twin scourge of Communism and Fascism.
          But, let's get back to Haider Farooq Maududi. Iftikhar Malik's note was very interesting. It revealed more in the very attempts to conceal Mr. Malik's admiration for Abul 'ala Moududi, his poisonous writings and disastrous preachings. Isn't it sad that the 'great' man's sons should be engaged in in-fighting! Europe and the USA have not figured out a "post religion" political status so why should the Muslims dream about democracy without Islam written all over the governance -- is an opinion I found hard to gulp. European Enlightenment-endowed Iftikhar Malik has forgotten about the millennium-long history of india which was the richest nation on earth and did not use Islam to rule its pluralistic societies even though the rulers were Muslim.

            Farida Majid

---

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:00:25 +0100

Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
From: bill...@gmail.com

To: i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk
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[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Dear Faridaji,

Just one point: the European Enlightenment as an intellectual and philosophical movement challenged the Chruch's monopoly over knowledge and successfully exposed its erroneous claims. The central movement of the Enlightenment was liberalism but you are absolutely right - communism and fascism were its offshoots too but more in terms of rejecting the liberal and humanist core ideas of the Enlightenment. There is a grave danger in rejecting the Enlightenment and celebrating sublime ignorance that prevailed in the world hitherto. 

It is true, Muslim rule and for that matter even rule of pre-Islamic rulers was based on the fiction of the ruler being a protector of all communities and when Aurangzeb went against it the consequences were disastrous. However, the pre-modern experience of South Asia has many things about it that one cannot accept.

About Maududi, I don't need to say more. Quite simply if one thinks that Abul Kalam Azad was right then Iqbal cannot be right. That I suppose is also what we have been discussing.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Iftikhar Malik]

Sure, Farida, I respect your opinion on the first point. On the second one, it would have been more apt to focus on the subject itself rather than Iftikhar Malik's admiration ot not which is certainly tinged with some personal ardour and less in the spirit of debate. I guess we should be (hopefully!) beyond the stage of who likes what/who; instead we should get into the world of ideas and comparative analysis. I do look at the history of the sub-continent--like any other such paradigm-- much beyond the simplistic perspectives of romanticisation and denigration, otherwise then there is the worry of not only being subjective in a personal way, it could also lead one on the route to what Arendt had warned about. I don't think any dispassionate discussion of Mawdudi or, Qutb or Iqbal, Syed Ameer Ali, Maulana Azad or Ziya Gokalp needs to be seen in that narrow prism of left/liberal and right/Jamaatist postulations.
Regards
Iftikhar

[Ehsan Ahrari]

Since I am the one who introduced the topic of Iqbal in this e-mail exchange, I feel responsible for a lot of character assassination that I have read about Iqbal.  I don’t get to hear the ideas of my fellow South Asians because my professional world keeps me in the pursuit of other arcane topics.  More to the point, I am not a scholar of Iqbal’s poetry.  And reading all the name calling of Iqbal, I am convinced that none of the writer has either.  Is this the best you can do about a great poet who spent a lifetime in creating memorable verses like: “Uttho meri dunya kay musalman ko jaga do; or praying: Khuda tujhey kisi toofan say ashna karday---- kay teray bahr ki maujon men inqilab nahin, etc. ?  One of you makes a connection between his verse “Bahre Zulmat….” with Taliban.  That is one the most ridiculous examples of reductionism I have read recently. 

 

A number of you call him Fascist either because of his Nietzsche connection, who, in turn, was admired by the Nazis.  Another one claims that Iqbal had no central idea to his poetry.  How much Iqbal’s poetry that person has really read before arriving at that momentous claim?  That reminds me of the asinine neocon-related cacophony that has been taking place here in the US about everything that they disagree with, including Islam.  Is this the best you can do?

[Taj Hashmi]

I am glad that I shared the YouTube sent by Ishtiaq with you all. The various comments on Iqbal's political views and activities are very enlightening. I tend to agree 100% with Ishtiaq that Iqbal was not that great as many Pakistani and non-Pakistani Muslims (and some non-Muslims) perceive him to be, mainly out of extreme devotion and ignorance (as people do the same to another poet in another part of the Subcontinent). nevertheless, the fact remains that Iqbal did public mourning for the death of Queen Victoria, did not utter a word about Jallianwalla Bagh Massacre (Tagore gave up his knighthood). I  particularly despise Iqbal's nostalgia for Granada and Sicily. He wrote poems on the "loss" of Granada by Arab/Moor Muslims. He also considered politics devoid of religion Changezi or absolute rule and tyranny by Chengiz Khan. Iqbal also admired Maududi's writings. Thanks God, Iqbal died in 1938, three years before the foundation of the reactionary Jamaat-i-Islami in 1938. By the way, maududi personally admired Mussolini's methods of mobilizing mass support for fascism.

My two pence: I think we should shed more light on the JI and its transformation into presumably a "democratic" party a la Muslim Brotherhood. Special thanks to Farida Apa for reminding us how European Enlightenment and the philosophy that followed it influenced leading Indian politicians and writers/thinkers, Gandhi, Tagore, Iqbal and others in formulating their nationalistic, fascist and communist ideologies.

Good debate indeed! More participation will make the debate even livelier.

Take care!

Taj Hashmi

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

I am just wondering if a poet like Iqbal should not be admired simply for his ability to create such poetry - that tends to enrapture so many people. That I think is what I proposed in my initial comment. As soon as you call him a philosopher or a thinker you are under obligation to present what has been his consist standpoint - you would notice none except in that residuary sense that ultimately pay homage to Islam to shut up anyone who migth find inconsistencies and contradictions in your writings. That is how Iqbal becomes a philosopher but that is not the standards which are required when judging the originality of a person's contribution to knowledge. In fact Ghalib was a great poet, far greater than Iqbal.

Humko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat lekin,
Dil ke khush rakhne ko, 'Ghalib' ye khayaal achcha hai,

Know we the reality of paradise but,
For the hearts happiness, Ghalib this thought is good,

That I think is original and if the poor man had lived today Maududi would have sent his shock-troopers to beat him up and if he lived a little later he would surely be booked under our famous blasphemy laws. What does Iqbal do? Writes Shikwa and then when threatened writes Jawab-e-Shikwa. I still think the best piece on Iqbal is Wlfred Cantwell Smith's 'Islam in modern India' in which he illustrates with verses the reactionary and progressive Iqbal. My hunch is that the progressive preceded the reactionary in Iqbal if one looks at the poems he composed after returning from Europe. Towards the end he had become totally dependent on doles from different nawabs because poetry does not bring in a good income notwithstanding all the clapping and wahwha. As a lawyer Iqbal was a failure and so he became increasingly dependent on his patrons and I don't think the nawabs were particularly keen to promote the progressive Iqbal. 

With regard to JI and Maududi Taj is absolutely right. We should have a discussion on him and his party.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Matin Ahmed]

Would Ms. Farida explain a little bit of what European Enlightenment is which supposedly influenced so many Indians.  Just want to know.

Matin Ahmed

[Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik]

JI had never been a popular party in Pakistan and long before of Maudodi's son's interview, people have exposed the party and equated it with Fascism. There is nothing new for a common Pakistani out of what you people are debating these days. The Afghan Mujahideen's monster was created by JI with US help and that of its Western partners and even China. JI and MQM are same with Fascist trends. The West does not criticize MQM as they toe their agenda. We must understand these trends from the point of view of international politics. 

Under a planned strategy, MQM has criticized the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the other day, as loyal to the British Crown. Somewhere you appreciate but also criticized Allama Iqbal for his reactionary poetry but you admired him of observing Queen Victoria's mourning. Jinnah and Iqbal are the foundation stones of Pakistan. All such trends tend to weaken State sovereignty of Pakistan.  

YouTube is banned in Pakistan and we cannot watch the video. 

Among the overseas Pakistanis, the man who impressed the masses in Pakistan these days is Dr Allma Tahirul Qadri of Mijahul Quran. Some say his agenda is Western, other say not. No doubt he has gained popularity. He is fully inspired by Iqbal's philosophy and Jinnah's creation of Pakistan. He is constitutionalist and want to fully implement it. Is he not better than others? 

 

DR AHMAD RASHID MALIK

Islamabad - Pakistan

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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:49:00 -0600

Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami

From: tajh...@gmail.com
To: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com; pfc...@googlegroups.com
CC: bill...@gmail.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; alishah...@gmail.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; dark...@yahoo.com; l...@spryservices.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; bark...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; has...@msn.com; hasana...@yahoo.co.uk; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; est...@hotmail.com; cs...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; mahbu...@ieee.org; ashra...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; jhela...@yahoo.com; min...@yahoo.com; enamu...@yahoo.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sahm...@hotmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; m.al...@gmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; a_b...@hotmail.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; nizam...@sky.com; hniz...@hotmail.com; cban...@shaw.ca; drahmadra...@hotmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; tahir...@hotmail.com; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; imran.a...@gmail.com; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; kazi...@mail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; afar...@adb.org; adnan....@gmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; ha...@hasanmahmud.com; matin...@sbcglobal.net; sha...@gmail.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; mbim...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; jil...@ananash.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; awahi...@gmail.com; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; mabisp...@hotmail.com; gowher...@gmail.com; belalb...@gmail.com

[Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik]

Iqbal studied European Enlightenment as he was not a Madrissa's student. He compared Western Enlightenment in the light of Islam and to solve the issues of identity of Muslims in British India. He gave them a distinctive identity.The Arabs were dismayed. Iranian reciprocated and admired his philosophy during revolution in 1979.  He even studied what was being happening in Japan and Far East. He also preached Enlightened Islam. He is comparable of all of these Western and Eastern scholars of his time and fame. The one-going debate looks prejudiced and undermines his status as Muslim scholar. Iqbal is in fact a bridge between the West and Islamic philosophy. Lets not to break this link. 

DR AHMAD RASHID MALIK

Islamabad - Pakistan

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From: farida...@hotmail.com
To: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk
CC: alishah...@gmail.com; ahr...@earthlink.net; pfc...@googlegroups.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; dark...@yahoo.com; l...@spryservices.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; bark...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; has...@msn.com; hasana...@yahoo.co.uk; kalac...@msn.com; sh...@ccri.edu; est...@hotmail.com; cs...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; mahbu...@ieee.org; ashra...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; jhela...@yahoo.com; min...@yahoo.com; enamu...@yahoo.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sahm...@hotmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; m.al...@gmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; a_b...@hotmail.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; nizam...@sky.com; hniz...@hotmail.com; cban...@shaw.ca; drahmadra...@hotmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; tahir...@hotmail.com; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; imran.a...@gmail.com; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; kazi...@mail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; afar...@adb.org; adnan....@gmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; ha...@hasanmahmud.com; matin...@sbcglobal.net; sha...@gmail.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; mbim...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; jil...@ananash.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; tare...@outlook.com; abid....@gmail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; pagur...@googlemail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; awahi...@gmail.com; bhui...@hotmail.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; mabisp...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 07:17:48 -0500

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

State Sovereignty.

This was an interesting observation. I was just wondering if sovereignty resides in the people of Pakistan or the parliament but apparently not. Imagine all the books criticizing Gandhi and Nehru that are published in India and an open debate takes place. In fact people like Jaswant Singh (for peculiar BJP reasons to make it appear as a secular party just as the Muslim League) have even gone to the other end and praised Jinnah to the skies. As far as I know nobody has accused people who write such books as threatening Indian sovereignty. I just wanted to draw attention to any interesting parallel.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

On 12 January 2013 06:35, Jamal Munshi <jamal...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a great scholarly debate among intellectual heavyweights. I feel privileged to be able to read these comments. Thank you Taj.

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

State Sovereignty.

This was an interesting observation. I was just wondering if sovereignty
resides in the people of Pakistan or the parliament but apparently not.
Imagine all the books criticizing Gandhi and Nehru that are published in
India and an open debate takes place. In fact people like Jaswant Singh
(for peculiar BJP reasons to make it appear as a secular party just as the
Muslim League) have even gone to the other end and praised Jinnah to the
skies. As far as I know nobody has accused people who write such books as
threatening Indian sovereignty. I just wanted to draw attention to any
interesting parallel.

Best regards,
Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

As far as the European Englightenment is concerned it was resolved in the privatization of religion and the end to the monopoly over objective knowledge based on the Bible and the beginning of the   scientific method based objective knowledge -  hypothesis-testing-theory-thesis and so on. Scientific knowledge never is absolute and requires constant change and better knowledge based on more data and so on. It even applies to the study of society and individual behaviour. Fascism and Communism which Farida Sahiba mentioned were not the main thrust of the Enlightenment. They were reactions to it.

Beginning with Jamaluddin Afghani a whole century or more of Muslim attempts to combine revelation with science have been a huge failure and Iqbal belonged to that tradition. Sir Syed tried to move away from this format but his neturi movement did not stabilize after him. Similarly Akbar tried to create a new basis for organizing society and even devised the eclectic  Din-e-Illahi. That too ended with him. Islam seems to be more formidable to reform than other religions and that is why most Muslim societies lag behind the rest of the world.

It is quite simple - you want to have a social and political order which in principle treats every citizen as an equal you must make his faith a private thing. Spiritual democracy, Islamic democracy are neither fish nor fowl. I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone told me to change my name or become a Christian to be given equal rights and so on. I am sure I would be not the only one out in the streets of Stockholm protesting.

Iqbal was into Islam and Enlightenment but that is a waste of time. Islam is a matter of belief about salvation and hell and paradise and such matters belong to the realm of metaphysics not objective reality. On the other hand, Islam like all other decent worldviews teaches honesty, responsibility, caring for those one loves - all this belongs to the individual's conscience and there it should remain. Start imposing Islamic laws and see the results. Weekly beheadings in Saudi Arabia, regular stoning to death in Iran and what we are doing in Pakistan needs no mention to this learned audience.  

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[ANWAR ISLAM]

Dear Friends and Distinguished Scholars, The discussion started with Allama Iqbal, one of the great poets and Islamic philosophers of our time. One may not like his political views, but I don't think that his legacy as a poet and Islamic philosopher should be so mercilessly decapitated. This amounts to intellectual assassination of sorts. Surprisingly we started with Iqbal and then spread the net wider to include, lo and behold, Gandhi, Jinnah, Nehru and inexplicably Tagore. God, we must be Aristotle, Marx, Hegel and Einstein lump together to be able to so precisely dissect the intellectual and philosophical heritage and legacy of these great men of our times. As we widen the net, the discussion is getting more and more prejudiced and discomforting. Perhaps we should take note of the Aristotlian dictum "know thyself" and of our limitations before going overboard in dissecting the true legacy of these poets, philosophers and social reformers. Sociology of knowledge teaches us that it is futile to assess any thinker/philosopher without understanding the social, political and intellectual context of his/her time.   Merci beaucoup. Anwar _______________________ Dr. Anwar Islam Adjunct Professor, School of Health Policy and Management, Faculty of Health, York University, Toronto, Ontario --- On Fri, 1/11/13, Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

It is very difficult to discuss when one has to defend charges about 'wanting to be heavyweights' as I thought this is a forum on which highly educated people freely exchange views. My own hunch is that in the Islamic/Muslim tradition and by that token Pakistan we are in the habit of writing hagiographies. A hagiography is extravagant adulation of a saint, icon, hero and so on. Therefore understandly any counter-point argument is likely to be assailed by a number of charges. 

So, it is very difficult to discuss. That is why I initially said that I have an opinion and I value that others too have and that we can just hold on to our respective standpoints. My dearest friend Iftikhar Malik then observed that 'I had it coming'. Perhaps because I had spoken rather irreverently about Iqbal and that I suppose damns me forever.

So be it.

I write a weekly column and just to change the topic I would like to share what I wrote in today's Daily Times.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

he Daily Times, Sunday, January 13, 2013,

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013\01\13\story_13-1-2013_pg3_4

COMMENT: The waxing and waning US — II —Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed

On the whole, US foreign policy remained geared to the principles of liberal democracy, free enterprise and an open society 

Some interesting feedback on my article last week necessitates clarification of my position on Stalin, as some friends thought I sounded defensive towards him. Following the Munich Agreement, Hitler annexed the Sudetenland in October 1938 and then invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939. There was no doubt in which direction the Nazis were planning to move. In mid-August 1939, just weeks before WWII broke out, Stalin approached Britain and France to enter into a military pact against Hitler. In the Sunday Telegraph dated October 18, 2008, Nick Holdsworth revealed that papers kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union was willing to send one million troops to the German border. For that to happen, Stalin wanted to cross the Polish border, but that idea was rejected by both Britain and France. Holdsworth writes, “Such an agreement could have changed the course of 20th century history, preventing Hitler’s pact with Stalin, which gave him free rein to go to war with Germany’s other neighbours.”
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed a week later on August 23, 1939. No doubt, the Soviets had been negotiating secretly with Hitler as well as with Britain and France: all options had to be considered to prevent an attack. It provided time to the Soviet Union to hasten its military and industrial production. Hitler nevertheless invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941. Did Stalin expect the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to be an honourable arrangement between him and Hitler to divide and rule central and Eastern Europe ever after? I doubt that. Nazism’s two great villains of the piece were Jews and communism and he believed that communism was a Jewish conspiracy.
With regard to Stalin’s crimes against his own people and party comrades, which were later exposed by Khrushchev, I have no hesitation in condemning them without any reservation. However, I still maintain that there was a chance to bring the Soviet Union into a global project aiming at cooperation and peaceful development and Roosevelt’s overture stood a fair chance. During the war Stalin had kept his pledges and even Churchill attested to it, but then went on to deliver his famous Iron Curtain speech of March 5, 1946, which upped the ante in the emerging Cold War rivalry. We can also remember that many years later the Americans did try another strategy with China and found the latter willing to forgo world revolution. In fact, the Chinese outsmarted the Americans by becoming the craftiest exponents of capitalism. 
With regard to the Marshall Plan, I must put it in perspective. The Soviet Union was technically not excluded but it was clear that it was meant to contain the spread of communism. Among the preconditions were that there would be a single European economy and Eastern Europe was to become a producer of agricultural products while Germany, which wreaked havoc upon the world, especially on the Soviet Union, was to benefit most. It was impossible for Stalin to accept such terms even if he was willing to compromise in less categorical ways.
Professor Ishfaque Bokhari advised me to highlight how the Cold War impacted the Third World. This I shall do presently, but let me touch something internal to US society and politics. Even if the US constitution proclaims a strict separation between state and religion and was in that sense the first explicitly secular state in the world, it was a long time before “All men are created equal” became a reality. Although slavery was abolished in 1863, its evil legacy continued to drag on into the 1960s in the southern states. When such news travelled to other parts of the world it created quite a stir.
Moreover, the CIA masterminded a number of reactionary coups. The overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadeq of Iran in 1953 was the most notorious CIA undertaking. On the whole, the United States banked on Saudi Arabia to counteract Gamal Nasser of Egypt and other Arab radicals as the Middle East oil reserves became increasingly crucial to the world economy. Additionally, post-Eisenhower, the tilt towards Israel became permanent. 
However, as leader of the liberal-capitalist world, the US continued to exercise considerable ‘soft power’ (a dubious term indicating the attraction and enticement of a power instead of intimidation and fear). It not only helped the restoration of Western Europe but of Japan too and, in fact, Pakistan was one of the earliest beneficiaries of US aid. Later, Southeast Asia considerably benefited from friendship with the Americans. Also, it would not be fair to say that they favoured autocrats over democrats. On the whole, US foreign policy remained geared to the principles of liberal democracy, free enterprise and an open society, but such principles were easily subordinated to the policy of containment of the Soviet Union.
On the global stage the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 demonstrated American will to risk nuclear war with the Soviet Union and the world was saved just in time from unprecedented destruction and suffering because Khrushchev ordered the missiles programme in Cuba to be abandoned. Fidel Castro was initially only a patriotic leader who wanted to rid his society of corruption and oppression. It was US opposition that drove him towards orthodox communism. In any case, Cuba never became a closed and controlled society such as other communist states. My friend Farooq Shah, who recently had a wonderful holiday on that tiny island, tells me that Cubans are poor but happy, content and very friendly.
Nothing did more harm to the US prestige and moral leadership of the world than the bloody and bitter Vietnam War. The International War Crimes Tribunal set by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell was a telling indictment of its crimes against humanity. For people of my generation, that image of a tiny Vietnamese girl whose skin flayed as a result of being hit by a napalm bomb is etched forever. The CIA also masterminded the overthrow of the elected government of the Marxist Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973. The US support for Latin American military juntas increased even more strongly.
Moreover, in the 1970s the United States was put on the back foot as opposition and resistance to its war in Vietnam increased on American university campuses and among intellectuals. The Cold War then shifted to Africa and caused enormous suffering to its people. 

(To be continued)

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at bill...@gmail.com

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

On 12 January 2013 19:53, HASANAT HUSAIN <hasana...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

We seem to nurture a tendency of dragging personalities, as to our own individual liking/disliking, onto a dissection table in the pretext of a perfectly innocent looking debate. Here, for example, the debate started with Moududi and what his son had said and whether a son's perspective of a father is acceptable or not etc. etc. but, we seem to have digressed to Allama Iqbal.

 

We need to remember that famous men/women have the whole earth as their memorial. Also that; we all want to be heavyweights and the moment we want to be something, we are no longer free.

 

Regards.

 

Hasanat Husain

London

[Taj Hashmi]

Don't worry Ishtiaq, I face(d) not-so-pleasant feedback for my iconoclastic views on Tagore and other mortals, all the time. But I have the attitude "Who Cares", at the end of the day! 

Take care!

Taj

---

Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:49:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Maududi's son Haider Farooq Maududi exposes his father's Jamaat e Islami
From: bill...@gmail.com
To: hasana...@yahoo.co.uk
CC: jamal...@googlemail.com; drahmadra...@hotmail.com; min...@yahoo.com; cs...@yahoo.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; kalac...@msn.com; cban...@shaw.ca; hniz...@hotmail.com; kazi...@mail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; mbim...@gmail.com; m.al...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; pagur...@googlemail.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; belalb...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; adnan....@gmail.com; afar...@adb.org; mabisp...@hotmail.com; a_b...@hotmail.com; alishah...@gmail.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; has...@msn.com; pfc...@googlegroups.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; dark...@yahoo.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; est...@hotmail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; matin...@sbcglobal.net; enamu...@yahoo.com; awahi...@gmail.com; abid....@gmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com; jil...@ananash.com; tahir...@hotmail.com; ashra...@hotmail.com; l...@spryservices.com; tare...@outlook.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; bhui...@hotmail.com; sha...@gmail.com; bark...@yahoo.com; tajh...@gmail.com; sh...@ccri.edu; ha...@hasanmahmud.com; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; sahm...@hotmail.com; gowher...@gmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; jhela...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; imran.a...@gmail.com; nizam...@sky.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; miq...@rogers.com

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Thanks Taj, such support is always vital to continue prodding along. 

By the way, have you contacted Sumut Guha?

Best,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ali Shaheen]

I agree that a secular society offers equal rights to all - in principle.  However, in practice even secular laws and ethics have religious foundations and secular societies have the flavour of the dominant religion practiced by the majority. We need to make a distinction between spirituality and religiosity, principles and practice.  Spiritual principles like honesty, social justice, compassion etc are common to all religions.  A spiritual democracy can be secular, based on such principles which draw from all religions.  Religious democracies cannot be secular because they adhere to particular religious practices as in Islam, Christianity etc. 

The problem we face in Muslim countries is that we are not content with following the principles of Islam, we want to emulate 7th. century Arabian practices and follow the way of life of people in that cultural and historical context.  Instead of allowing Islam to evolve into the future we want to live in the past. Religion should be a private matter, but in Muslim countries Islam is a political matter too.  It is used to pander to the masses.  Religious reforms alone won't suffice.  We also need educational, cultural, social, political, legal and economic reforms. Such transitions take time.  If we go too fast too soon there will be a greater reactionary backlash - which we have seen repeatedly in Muslim countries.  Perhaps we need to talk about spiritual democracies as a way forward, rather than religious or secular ones in order to appeal to people in societies which are deeply religious.

As for Iqbal, I think we are being unfair to Iqbal by judging him by 21st. century thinking.  He was a product of his time, influenced by the thinking of his age and by no means perfect.  Who is?  He made an invaluable contribution to Muslim South Asian thought, awakening, and movement for independence.  He can't be blamed for the political mess in Pakistan.  And his influence extended beyond the borders of South Asia.   

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

I appreciate this very even-handed response of Ali Shaheen Sahib. Such moderation can help us move forward. If a spiritual democracy has scope for non-religious, secular spiritualism then I think that would be all right. I doubt however if Iqbal or Javed Iqbal and you can read the latter's book on this meant equal respect for all religions. In fact India should qualify very well as a spiritual democracy because that was Gandhi's approach. Personally I think just saying democracy would do because nobody who supports democracy would argue that they do it because it is an immoral way of ordering politics. But the distinction between spiritual and religious is a good one. I am presenting below something I wrote only a few weeks earlier.

It is also true that secular laws and states originated in religious contexts. That is absolutely true but the important point was that the authority of the church to determine law was set aside. Islamic laws based on Sharia and democracy are an impossiblity - except in that dangerous sense that the majority can vote to discriminate against a minority. To my students I used to explain like this. Suppose the Swedish parliament votes that only Lutheran Christians can hold public office then it would be a democratic decision all right but with anti-democratic implications and ramifications. Modern secular democracy has the notion of inalienable human rights of the individual and that includes the right not to believe in any religion or dogma but be a loyal and responsible citizen. 

The discussion on Iqbal was a bit spirited indeed but I think necessary. It will at least make some people reflect and not all or any may agree with me. That is perfectly all right. Please have a look at my recent article on spirtuality based on the ideas of a Pakistani intellectual. 

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

Daily Times, Sunday, December 23, 2012

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\12\23\story_23-12-2012_pg3_6

COMMENT : Dr Khalid Sohail: spiritualism as secular humanism — Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed

In sharp contrast, modern science and the disciplines of psychology and psychiatry in particular, as well as secular philosophy, do not speak of a soul but of the human psyche

The contemporary centre of enlightened and frank discussion among Pakistanis on highly contentious subjects is most certainly Canada, where it is possible for community radio and television channels to invite experts to express their views freely. One such programme is PASSWORD with Dr Baland Iqbal. Recently Dr Iqbal invited Dr Khalid Sohail, a practising psychiatrist, an author of several books, an accomplished poet and short-story writer on a topic I believe many subscribing to a secular-rationalist worldview have been intrigued by, a mystifying experience of intense creativity and realisation, as if an inner voice is speaking to us. Such moments can be transformative and transcendental and become a new level of consciousness. The question is, are such experiences spiritual in the sense that religions talk about as connecting with divinity, or is there a rational, materialist basis for them?

This was a very challenging puzzle that the compere, Dr Iqbal, in a very skilful manner presented to Dr Sohail to solve. Dr Sohail expounded a very interesting thesis. He asserted that the two main religious traditions of the world — the Middle Eastern comprising Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and the eastern tradition centred on the Indian subcontinent consisting of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism — hold that body and soul are two distinct and separate entities.

Elaborating the Islamic theological standpoint specifically, Dr Sohail said that it was premised on the assumption that the soul/souls exists as a non-material entity in a heavenly domain. When a human being is born, one of the souls is placed in that body. After that human being dies his/her soul returns to the same heavenly domain. There the souls wait for the Day of Judgement when each soul would be held accountable for that person’s conduct on earth and then either rewarded with paradise or sent to hell to face punishment. On the other hand, the subcontinental theory is that every human being is born with a soul. However, when that person dies, the soul does not return to some place to wait; rather it keeps returning to earth until it cleanses itself of all sin and then joins the Universal Spirit or God. The ontological distinction drawn by religions is therefore between body and soul as two different entities: one physical, the other spiritual.

In sharp contrast, modern science and the disciplines of psychology and psychiatry in particular, as well as secular philosophy, do not speak of a soul but of the human psyche. It is not separate from the mind or brain; it exists as long as the brain is functioning. It perishes once the brain ceases to function. More important, the human brain comprises two chambers that are interconnected. There is a left brain and a right brain. The left brain enables us to reason, calculate, plan and undertake detached thinking while the right brain is about feelings, ethics, morals and compassion. Normally, we use both but one can dominate the other. Dr Sohail mentioned that there was medical evidence that some people who suffered brain injury or have had epileptic experiences talked about being transported into a different world of fantastic images and voices, which suggested that their right brain had become extra-active.

According to this scientific approach, both religious and secular people experience spirituality as an extra dimension in their lives. While some religious spiritualists become recluses and indulge in excessive meditation, others translate their spiritualism into love of humankind: God, humankind, creation in general become one great, indivisible cosmological reality. With regard to the Islamic tradition, Dr Sohail observed that while the ulema understand God as power and authority to whom submission is due all the time, the Sufi understands God as love. Consequently, some Sufis embrace all human beings without demanding adherence to any strict dogma. They exude such vibes that people around them experience great peace and comfort. He described Abdus Sattar Edhi and Mother Theresa as religious spiritualists. Equally, secular individuals who consider their lives as part of an undifferentiated humanity and are always at the forefront for the respect of human rights, women’s rights, minority rights and even nature rights, and take up cudgels on behalf of the oppressed, are secular spiritualists. Dr Sohail then spelt out the social and political implications, preconditions for both types of spirituality to co-exist and energise one another. He argued that only in a secular-democratic and pluralist social and political order could both exist in harmony.

From a social science perspective, Dr Sohail’s thesis is path breaking and needs to be discussed widely. In the interview, he mentions Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, Karl Marx, Jean Paul Sartre and a host of other thinkers and theorists and elaborates other aspects of these two types of spiritualism. He also proposed a radical new idea: the evolutionary process Charles Darwin discovered, and which was the most revolutionary, transformative theory since Copernicus and Galileo began to question the Biblical theory of the origin of the universe and earth, now needs to be supplemented by an evolutionary theory of thinking. Humankind has to choose between, on the one hand, fanaticism, tribalism, war and continued injustices and, on the other, a world order based on peace, accommodation, adjustment and justice. His two books that I consider essential reading are The Next Stage of Human Evolution and in Urdu, Insaani Shaoor ka Irtiqa. Both are displayed on his website. I warmly recommend that we listen to his interview at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-px_pZPq0c&feature=autoshare 

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011).

He can be reached at bill...@gmail.com

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Matin Ahmed]

Dear Mr. Ishtiaq,

       The discussions so far, has been tasty.  Unfortunately, during this ‘tax time’ in the US I risk starvation later in the year if I deviate from my job as an accountant. So, participation for me was not an option until I chose to sacrifice some sleep.

      Some of the comments and observations were quite interesting and thought provoking.  I fully share the view that privatization of religion is fundamental to secularism and therefore a prerequisite to democracy in a plural society. I complement your views on Mustfa Kemal Ataturk for being one of those leaders who was ahead of his people and  made a unique contribution to the secularization of Turkey. Without his ‘revolution’ in other Muslim countries secularism was not possible through a process of democratic evolution because faith based Sunni and Shia doctrines left no room for reforms.

     There on discussion flowed to pure philosophy using certain high sounding concepts and ideas starting with a critique of poet Iqbal.  Herein, I venture to present my two cents worth with prejudice and certainly no malice to anyone.

    I follow a different set of standards for the contributions of authors, writers, thinkers, philosophers to a society as  diverse groups from a statesman, king, a ruler or a politician.  They often write for social or political reforms, take a position on an issue or they don’t.  To me their contribution or the lack of it, lies in their creations in their fields.  They do not claim to be a statesman or a reformer and I find it unfair to “judge” them from the perspective of a leader.

     Some years ago we at PFC declared Rabindranath Tagore to be a reactionary and forfeited his peace in his permanent rest-home.   We may be ready for another kill in the killing of another dead poet.  I agree, to some extent, with Mr. Iftikhar Malik, Anwar Islam, Ali Shaheen, Hasanat Hussain and others with the view that idolatry smeared of narcissism results in nonobjective deductions. I read very few translated poems of Iqbal but the ones I read were powerful and simply overwhelming. Iqbal may or may not have been a great philosopher or a poet and critics have every right to examine his writings.  He is entitled to the criticism as well as an acclamation for his merit or the lack of it.  He does not deserve a summary dismissal as something he was not or something he did not proclaim. I nurture this humble view that a writer, thinker, philosopher does not need to be “perfect” in order to be great.  Even one or a few work of extraordinary caliber is enough for that title. From this perspective, Iqbal would excel in his accomplishments along with Mirza Ghalib, Altaf Hussain Hali, and Jalal-ud-din Rumi.

     I am quite amazed and somewhat puzzled by one posting that seemed to ascribe  a “bunch” of Indian leaders with  degenerative atavism.  Two points need to be made here.  First, if we, ourselves,  are basking in the light of “enlightenment” today then why should we judge those leaders with different standards?  Secondly, if liberalism is synonymous to European Enlightenment then Communism and Fascism being its siblings denotes a contradiction in terms. One of my professors at Berkeley told us in one of his classes that people who try to explain or understand social or political development and juxtapose events and ideas commit an eternal sin of “judging” history in their own image, with ther own values.  Setting a standard and defining an objective may be the way to proceed in a critique.  After all,  what are we trying to prove and by what means.

     Historians compartmentalize the 17^th and 18^th centuries as a period of Enlightenment in Europe, also dubbed as the Age of Reason, when faith based doctrines were challenged in favor of scientific proof.  Scientists, philosophers starting with Spinoza, Locke, Newton, Voltaire including Diderot, Rousseau, Montesquieu and others were considered the protagonists of this enlightenment.  Even a slightly earlier personality, Rene Descartes sought to explain “…all changes mechanically as the movement of bodies according to the laws of physics…”  In reality, however, whether or not the “hypothesis-testing” proved scientifically all the questions that baffled philosophers is an altogether different story.   

     You have noted that scientific testing is applied (or can be applied) to human and societal behavior as well.   As you know there were philosophers long before Enlightenment who challenged “belief in absolute truth,” and immutable  concept of virtue and justice.  The Sophists were one such group.  As to the application of scientific principles to society and human, the Existentialists in their essays, plays and stories showed how problematic and hazardous such application could be.

     Compartmentalization of history certainly has some pedagogic utility but attribution of certain principles to a time period is confusing and sometimes unsustainable.  I am inclined to view the Enlightenment in Europe as a conceptual manifestation of our progression as human beings which is essentially a process of continuation.  You will note that philosophers who demolish their predecessors also borrow heavily from their views.  Let’s take a few examples.  The parenthood of dialectic materialism is bestowed upon Karl Marx in the popular notion while the academics are keenly aware that the concept of dialectic, ‘the synthesis of opposites’ although  brought in vogue by Hagel was well known to and famously used in the intellectual discourse by the Greek philosophers, particularly Socrates. Similarly, Frederick Wilhelm Nietzsche is considered to be the bad apple of Fascism while the list of philosophers who influenced Kierkegaard and Nietzsche is quite long and, we might also mention, that many of his writings have been misinterpreted and corrupted to suite a certain purpose.

The point here, of course, is one that you mentioned, “scientific knowledge is never absolute….” I will add that ee really cannot take anything for granted. 

      I wrote this email last night and looked it over before posting today.  Please forgive me if I have overstated my case. As I mentioned before I can only make a passing comment until the end of April but I will read the emails.  Mr. Iftikhar has the right to his views and we have no need to be sentimental about it.  You are welcome to this group and I hope that we will continue this or other enlightened discussions in the future.

 

     Matin Ahmed

     California

     510 234-9335  

Taj

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Dear Mr Matin,

Thanks for your understanding. I think everybody is entitled to his views. That is an absolute basis for any civilized exchange of views. I just claim the right to express my views and readily recognize that it is a mutually applicable principle. I too am an admirer of Iqbal's poetry - those verses I think which are sublime. There are verses which frighten me as well because I find Zaid Hamid and whole array of extremists quoting them with relish. And that is a problem for me. It may not be for others but I am trained as political theorist and from Plato onwards specialize on history of ideas. So, it is a matter of what yardstick we are applying to a source material.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Hasan Mahmud]

My 50th forefathers were kings. I am a begger today.

 

Muslim countries did not invent almost anything in past many centuries. About 80% PhDs in the Middle East are PhDs on Islam, not on science.

 

W.

From: Dr. Hasanat Husain <dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; Mintu Haq <min...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Karim <cs...@yahoo.com>; Ishita Mehjabin <ishi.m...@gmail.com>; ""azads...@yahoo.com"" <azads...@yahoo.com>; ""kalac...@msn.com"" <kalac...@msn.com>; Chin Banerjee <cban...@shaw.ca>; Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com>; Showkat Kazi <kazi...@mail.com>; ""zog...@hotmail.co.uk"" <zog...@hotmail.co.uk>; MBI Munshi <mbim...@gmail.com>; Moyeedul Allem <m.al...@gmail.com>; Enamul Choudhury <nac...@inbox.com>; ""pagur...@googlemail.com"" <pagur...@googlemail.com>; Abdul Waseh <waseh...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Hussain <sajjad.h...@yahoo.com>; Fida Kamal <kamal...@gmail.com>; belal baaquie <belalb...@gmail.com>; Hassan Mansur <hassanm...@gmail.com>; Adnan Mahbub <adnan....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Faruque <afar...@adb.org>; ""mabisp...@hotmail.com"" <mabisp...@hotmail.com>; Abdullah Baqi <a_b...@hotmail.com>; Ali Shaheen <alishah...@gmail.com>; ""bill...@gmail.com"" <bill...@gmail.com>; Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk>; Jawaid Ahmed <jawaid_...@yahoo.com>; HasanZillurRahim PFC <has...@msn.com>; PFC <pfc...@googlegroups.com>; ""masudh...@yahoo.com"" <masudh...@yahoo.com>; Wali Mondal <monda...@gmail.com>; abdul momen <abdul...@hotmail.com>; Shah Jahan PFC <dark...@yahoo.com>; Hubert Rozario <hubert...@hotmail.com>; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman <nafee...@hotmail.com>; Arman Mahbub <mahbub...@gmail.com>; Shahid Hafiz Dadu <pank...@hotmail.com>; Hasanat Murtaza <hasanat...@hotmail.com>; Musabbir Khan <pagur...@gmail.com>; Rizwan Islam <rizwanu...@gmail.com>; Tareq Ahmed <est...@hotmail.com>; Zulfiqar Sadeque <zulfi....@international.gc.ca>; Matinuddin Ahmed <matin...@sbcglobal.net>; Enam Chowdhury <enamu...@yahoo.com>; Abu Nasr Wahid <awahi...@gmail.com>; ""abid....@gmail.com"" <abid....@gmail.com>; ""pfc-f...@googlegroups.com"" <pfc-f...@googlegroups.com>; ""jil...@ananash.com"" <jil...@ananash.com>; LtG Tahir Qazi <tahir...@hotmail.com>; Ashraf Khan <ashra...@hotmail.com>; Luthfur Choudhury <l...@spryservices.com>; ""tare...@outlook.com"" <tare...@outlook.com>; Shamsher M Chowdhury <shamsher....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Kamal <abul...@hotmail.com>; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury <rahman.c...@wfp.org>; ""bhui...@hotmail.com"" <bhui...@hotmail.com>; Shamsul Chowdhury <sha...@gmail.com>; Barkat Khuda <bark...@yahoo.com>; Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; ""sh...@ccri.edu"" <sh...@ccri.edu>; Hasan Mahmud <ha...@hasanmahmud.com>; Osmani PFC <sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk>; Ahrar Ahmad <ahrar...@bhsu.edu>; Salehuddin Ahmed <sahm...@hotmail.com>; Gowher Rizvi <gowher...@gmail.com>; Ahmad Khalid <akh...@staff.bond.edu.au>; Jawed Hilali <jhela...@yahoo.com>; Col Aziz <cola...@yahoo.com>; Mustafa Chowdhury <mustafa.c...@gmail.com>; Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com>; Farid Islam <isl...@uvsc.edu>; Imran Ahmad <imran.a...@gmail.com>; Nizam Ahmad <nizam...@sky.com>; ""gmurta...@hotmail.com"" <gmurta...@hotmail.com>; Mumtaz Iqbal <miq...@rogers.com>; ""jamal...@googlemail.com"" <jamal...@googlemail.com>; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:44 PM
Subject: 'What Muslims have Invented'

Please watch :

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1001inventions.com%2Fmedia%2Fvideo%2Flibrary&h=eAQEh8frP

 

  

 

Please also watch - Historian Bettany Hughes tells about coffee, crystal glasses, fine dining, carpets, spectacles.......  

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FpB5Oo-KFyQ

 

Hasanat Husain

London

 

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

It would be interesting to know when did the last Muslim invention took place.  I think that was a very long time ago.

 One thing more. Do we say that Newton created a Christian theory or gravity or James Watt created a Christian steam engine? I don't think so even when we know that Newton was a believing Christian.

I think a Muslim can invent any time and I am sure in the future some great things will be done by Muslims. I am told that this fellow Steve Jobs of Macintosh, or was it something else, was the son of a Syrian Sunni Muslim. It would be racist to say Muslims can't invent. The question is that do they invent things because they are Muslims or they are technical wizards or scientists and that they would do even if  they were not Muslims. 

I think the whole argument needs to be reconsidered. 

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[MBI Munshi]

Muslims stopped inventing when scholars in the 12th Century unilaterally decided that there was nothing new that could be known about the world and so free and independent thinking should be stopped. In the last century there have been attempts to revive free and independent thinking but this has often faced hostility and has sometimes even gone in the wrong direction and produced violent Islamist ideologies (i.e. Salafism). If Muslims want to start inventing again they have to open up there universities and educational institutions to new ideas and protect people who espouse unconventional views. It is not that Muslims are incapable but their minds have artificially been closed for too long and needs some exercise.    

--

MBI Munshi

Facebook ID - Mohammad Munshi

Skype Name - mbimunshi

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

I think that captures the essence of why instead of inventions one is manufacturing destructive mindsets and a fascination with weapons and killing anyone who does not fit the bill of being pious.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ali Shaheen]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Newton was Jewish, not Christian.  I agree with you that scientific inventions/discoveries do not have a faith.  However, we Muslims don't seem to be making as many contributions to science as one would expect in proportion to our population.  The Jewish community has done much better in relation to the size of their population.  It does not mean that Muslims can't invent - it means there is something seriously wrong with the education system in Muslim countries.  If we pour money into Saudi style madrasahs we should not be surprised if we churn out bigots rather than inventors.  Unfortunately I can't comment on the video am unable to access Youtube at this time as I am visiting Iqbal's birthplace - Lahore, (hence the need to defend the guy in another post :), but will catch it when I return to Toronto.,

[Hasan Mahmud]

Just go through the syllabus of Al Azhar university and Pakistani educational institutions and you will see they are indoctrinating our next generations with so much of hate to "The Others" - where is the scope of scientific faculty?

Hasan Mahmud.

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Issac Newton was into an Anglican Christian family but later become sceptical according to one point of view, others suggest he was a believing Christian but unorthox. He was not Jewish. -  I am also Lahore born and love it. So, Ali Shaheen Sahib, have a great time and we will catch later. 

My theory is that the Two Nation Theory laid the basis of a lot which has gone awry. One can wonder how Israel, also founded on religious nationalism and with orthodox Jews law applicable partially,  has been so successful both as a democracy and  very high standard education and universities and their scientists and scholars perform very well. One reason could be that the founders of Israel  were a highly secularized and modernized group and that came from Europe  to the Middle East. They established the basis framework of a modern state. Except for Jinnah and some others the Muslim League was a party of landowners and such a class had little interest in promoting democracy even for Muslims. I being born in Lahore was horrified when I visited a friend's village in Gurjrat about 90 kilometres away from Lahore. The bigwigs sat on charpoys while the common lot sat in a meek manner on the floor, actually on dusty patches. This was the daily routine. I was later told that I did not have to go so far from Lahore -such things are common much closer. 

 However, I would  call Israel an ethnocracy  and not a democracy since it effectively marginalizes its Arab, Muslim and Christian populations. As soon as a state discriminates against its people on any ascriptive criteria it goes down on my scale of democratic achievements. We could not manage even that and the reason is that the basic structure of the Islamic state is sectarian. One can have a Sunni, Shia, Wahabi or whatever state but an inclusive Islamic state is oxomoren. If the Ahmadis were to come to power they would also have an Ahmadi state. Quite simply the divisions among Muslims are not about who all are the chosen people  of God but also who additionally are also entitled to rule and according to which interpretation of the law. As soon as it is Hanafi, Jafari or Hanbali law applicable to all sectors of live democracy is no longer a serious undertaking. It can be a majoritarian type of elected government as happens to be the case in Iran but not one elected freely. All candidates are cleared by the council of wise men. 

Gandhi, Nehru and a whole tradition of Hindus going back to Raja Ram Mohan Roy realized that orthodox Hinduism - read the caste system - would mean disaster for India and therefore there was a consensus on having a secular constitution - not only with equal rights for all but preferential rights for the Scheduled castes and tribes. As soon as Brahmin and a dalit have equal rights, let say the right to vote, orthodox Hinduism is no longer politically applicable to that order.

In sharp contrast Iqbal and others narrated a romantic version of Islamic history and although Iqbal spoke optimistically of a reform of Sharia he never developed beyond expressing such a hope. Once Pakistan came into being and a search for a constitution that is both Islamic and democratic started the democratic portion successively gave way to the Islamic until General Zia removed all confusion as to what was suitable for Pakistan. As I said Sir Syed did have some radical views on this but none of his followers had the courage or vision to say that whipping someone could be justice many centuries ago doing it today is not. I keep telling my friends that are they willing to let their daughters and sisters join a harem or two to four or not. To my Shia friends I ask if they would be willing to let their sister or daughter contract muta marriage. I think I never got an honest answer. What was all right long ago is not all right now. Christian societies also very oppressive and in our wonderful Sweden which I admire just two kilometres from where I live women were burnt as witches as late as 1774. You start applying the laws of the Old Testament and Israel and the Taliban could arguably be considered a better bet. Harking to the past is escapism, it is romanicism and it is simply irresponsible-ism. I remember interviewing a certain Khawaja Sahib about events that took place in Amritsar in 1947. We never really got into it because he insisted in proving that all the scientific theories that are present in the world are already formulated in Quranic verses. He even went further and said that Newton and Einstien should acknowledge that they derived their theories from the Quran and therefore they were guilty of plagiarism. I can assure you Khawaja is not all that an exception. 

I

All Islamic sectarian states discourage free and unencumbered research and scholarship and one has to tow the official ideology or even sect in order to write something acceptable. 

Without a secular state we will always be handicapped. That is my conclusion.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

 

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[MBI Munshi]

I think this is a useful article on the subject under discussion and appears to confirm my impression on the matter. However, where others on this email list have expressed pessimism I am optimistic that free and independent thinking will again prevail in Islam. Islam is now around 1500 years old so is some 500 years behind Christianity and the West. During the same stage of its development Christianity in 1500AD was in the Dark Ages or what is alternatively called the Medieval Period. I think in time Islam will mature and develop as the older religions have done but retaining some of its own unique characteristics.

http://deshcalling.blogspot.com/2013/01/dont-blame-it-on-al-ghazali.html

Regards

--

MBI Munshi

Facebook ID - Mohammad Munshi

Skype Name - mbimunshi

Blog - DeshCalling

[Taj Hashmi]

Hasanat:

It's good news indeed! A 19-year-old genius has invented something very important for satellite technology. 

I think not because of her religion, race, nationality and gender, she has achieved something because she is intelligent, having God-gifted talents. I am so happy for her. No one should take credit for her achievement as a Muslim, African/Arab/Coptic, Egyptian, or woman. She is an intelligent, gifted person (that should be her identity at the end of the day).

TH

---

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:34:35 +0000
From: dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re : 'What Muslims have Invented'

To: bill...@gmail.com; mbim...@gmail.com
CC: ha...@hasanmahmud.com; tajh...@gmail.com; min...@yahoo.com; cs...@yahoo.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; kalac...@msn.com; cban...@shaw.ca; hniz...@hotmail.com; kazi...@mail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; m.al...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; pagur...@googlemail.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; belalb...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; adnan....@gmail.com; afar...@adb.org; mabisp...@hotmail.com; a_b...@hotmail.com; alishah...@gmail.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; has...@msn.com; pfc...@googlegroups.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; dark...@yahoo.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; est...@hotmail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; matin...@sbcglobal.net; enamu...@yahoo.com; awahi...@gmail.com; abid....@gmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com; jil...@ananash.com; tahir...@hotmail.com; ashra...@hotmail.com; l...@spryservices.com; tare...@outlook.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; bhui...@hotmail.com; sha...@gmail.com; bark...@yahoo.com; sh...@ccri.edu; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; sahm...@hotmail.com; gowher...@gmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; jhela...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; imran.a...@gmail.com; nizam...@sky.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; drahmadra...@hotmail.com

Egyptian girl, Aisha Mustafa, invents new space propulsion system

From digitaljournal.com - November 29, 2012 6:10 PM

A physics student from Egypt's Sohag University, Aisha Mustafa, 19, has patented a new type of propulsion system based on quantum theory that she says could propel space probes and artificial satellites without using any fuel.

The latest contribution from Muslim world that I know of.

 

In the University College (of nearly 100% white boys and girls, where I was Head of Sixth Form Maths and Physics), I used to say almost similar thing/s in my Yr. 12 tutorials. One day, much to my delight, the Physics/Maths A level - Yr2 students added a potrait of Prof. Abdus Salam in the main Science/Maths. gallery where Newton, Einstein, Curie, Dirac, Fermi, Heisenberg, Stephen Hawkings...were.

 

We all are entitled to take our pick/s.

 

Regards.

 

HH 

From: Ishtiaq Ahmed <bill...@gmail.com>
To: MBI Munshi <mbim...@gmail.com>
Cc: Hasan Mahmud <ha...@hasanmahmud.com>; Dr. Hasanat Husain <dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk>; Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; Mintu Haq <min...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Karim <cs...@yahoo.com>; Ishita Mehjabin <ishi.m...@gmail.com>; "azads...@yahoo.com" <azads...@yahoo.com>; "kalac...@msn.com" <kalac...@msn.com>; Chin Banerjee <cban...@shaw.ca>; Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com>; Showkat Kazi <kazi...@mail.com>; "zog...@hotmail.co.uk" <zog...@hotmail.co.uk>; Moyeedul Allem <m.al...@gmail.com>; Enamul Choudhury <nac...@inbox.com>; "pagur...@googlemail.com" <pagur...@googlemail.com>; Abdul Waseh <waseh...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Hussain <sajjad.h...@yahoo.com>; Fida Kamal <kamal...@gmail.com>; belal baaquie <belalb...@gmail.com>; Hassan Mansur <hassanm...@gmail.com>; Adnan Mahbub <adnan....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Faruque <afar...@adb.org>; "mabisp...@hotmail.com" <mabisp...@hotmail.com>; Abdullah Baqi <a_b...@hotmail.com>; Ali Shaheen <alishah...@gmail.com>; Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk>; Jawaid Ahmed <jawaid_...@yahoo.com>; HasanZillurRahim PFC <has...@msn.com>; PFC <pfc...@googlegroups.com>; "masudh...@yahoo.com" <masudh...@yahoo.com>; Wali Mondal <monda...@gmail.com>; abdul momen <abdul...@hotmail.com>; Shah Jahan PFC <dark...@yahoo.com>; Hubert Rozario <hubert...@hotmail.com>; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman <nafee...@hotmail.com>; Arman Mahbub <mahbub...@gmail.com>; Shahid Hafiz Dadu <pank...@hotmail.com>; Hasanat Murtaza <hasanat...@hotmail.com>; Musabbir Khan <pagur...@gmail.com>; Rizwan Islam <rizwanu...@gmail.com>; Tareq Ahmed <est...@hotmail.com>; Zulfiqar Sadeque <zulfi....@international.gc.ca>; Matinuddin Ahmed <matin...@sbcglobal.net>; Enam Chowdhury <enamu...@yahoo.com>; Abu Nasr Wahid <awahi...@gmail.com>; "abid....@gmail.com" <abid....@gmail.com>; "pfc-f...@googlegroups.com" <pfc-f...@googlegroups.com>; "jil...@ananash.com" <jil...@ananash.com>; LtG Tahir Qazi <tahir...@hotmail.com>; Ashraf Khan <ashra...@hotmail.com>; Luthfur Choudhury <l...@spryservices.com>; "tare...@outlook.com" <tare...@outlook.com>; Shamsher M Chowdhury <shamsher....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Kamal <abul...@hotmail.com>; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury <rahman.c...@wfp.org>; "bhui...@hotmail.com" <bhui...@hotmail.com>; Shamsul Chowdhury <sha...@gmail.com>; Barkat Khuda <bark...@yahoo.com>; "sh...@ccri.edu" <sh...@ccri.edu>; Osmani PFC <sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk>; Ahrar Ahmad <ahrar...@bhsu.edu>; Salehuddin Ahmed <sahm...@hotmail.com>; Gowher Rizvi <gowher...@gmail.com>; Ahmad Khalid <akh...@staff.bond.edu.au>; Jawed Hilali <jhela...@yahoo.com>; Col Aziz <cola...@yahoo.com>; Mustafa Chowdhury <mustafa.c...@gmail.com>; Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com>; Farid Islam <isl...@uvsc.edu>; Imran Ahmad <imran.a...@gmail.com>; Nizam Ahmad <nizam...@sky.com>; "gmurta...@hotmail.com" <gmurta...@hotmail.com>; Mumtaz Iqbal <miq...@rogers.com>; "jamal...@googlemail.com" <jamal...@googlemail.com>; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 14 January 2013, 8:25
Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

[Abid Bahar]

A related video:

Response to Modern Challenges (Burma, Syria,Human rights, Liberal Muslims)-Dr Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgG0Yq-edKQ&feature=youtu.be&t=7m59s

[javed helali]

Ali Shaheen is a Sahiba!

 

JH
512-669-5248

---

From: Ishtiaq Ahmed <bill...@gmail.com>
To: Ali Shaheen <alishah...@gmail.com>

Cc: Hasan Mahmud <ha...@hasanmahmud.com>; Dr. Hasanat Husain <dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk>; Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; Mintu Haq <min...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Karim <cs...@yahoo.com>; Ishita Mehjabin <ishi.m...@gmail.com>; ""azads...@yahoo.com"" <azads...@yahoo.com>; ""kalac...@msn.com"" <kalac...@msn.com>; Chin Banerjee <cban...@shaw.ca>; Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com>; Showkat Kazi <kazi...@mail.com>; ""zog...@hotmail.co.uk"" <zog...@hotmail.co.uk>; MBI Munshi <mbim...@gmail.com>; Moyeedul Allem <m.al...@gmail.com>; Enamul Choudhury <nac...@inbox.com>; ""pagur...@googlemail.com"" <pagur...@googlemail.com>; Abdul Waseh <waseh...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Hussain <sajjad.h...@yahoo.com>; Fida Kamal <kamal...@gmail.com>; belal baaquie <belalb...@gmail.com>; Hassan Mansur <hassanm...@gmail.com>; Adnan Mahbub <adnan....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Faruque <afar...@adb.org>; ""mabisp...@hotmail.com"" <mabisp...@hotmail.com>; Abdullah Baqi <a_b...@hotmail.com>; Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk>; Jawaid Ahmed <jawaid_...@yahoo.com>; HasanZillurRahim PFC <has...@msn.com>; PFC <pfc...@googlegroups.com>; ""masudh...@yahoo.com"" <masudh...@yahoo.com>; Wali Mondal <monda...@gmail.com>; abdul momen <abdul...@hotmail.com>; Shah Jahan PFC <dark...@yahoo.com>; Hubert Rozario <hubert...@hotmail.com>; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman <nafee...@hotmail.com>; Arman Mahbub <mahbub...@gmail.com>; Shahid Hafiz Dadu <pank...@hotmail.com>; Hasanat Murtaza <hasanat...@hotmail.com>; Musabbir Khan <pagur...@gmail.com>; Rizwan Islam <rizwanu...@gmail.com>; Tareq Ahmed <est...@hotmail.com>; Zulfiqar Sadeque <zulfi....@international.gc.ca>; Matinuddin Ahmed <matin...@sbcglobal.net>; Enam Chowdhury <enamu...@yahoo.com>; Abu Nasr Wahid <awahi...@gmail.com>; ""abid....@gmail.com"" <abid....@gmail.com>; ""pfc-f...@googlegroups.com"" <pfc-f...@googlegroups.com>; ""jil...@ananash.com"" <jil...@ananash.com>; LtG Tahir Qazi <tahir...@hotmail.com>; Ashraf Khan <ashra...@hotmail.com>; Luthfur Choudhury <l...@spryservices.com>; ""tare...@outlook.com"" <tare...@outlook.com>; Shamsher M Chowdhury <shamsher....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Kamal <abul...@hotmail.com>; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury <rahman.c...@wfp.org>; ""bhui...@hotmail.com"" <bhui...@hotmail.com>; Shamsul Chowdhury <sha...@gmail.com>; Barkat Khuda <bark...@yahoo.com>; ""sh...@ccri.edu"" <sh...@ccri.edu>; Osmani PFC <sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk>; Ahrar Ahmad <ahrar...@bhsu.edu>; Salehuddin Ahmed <sahm...@hotmail.com>; Gowher Rizvi <gowher...@gmail.com>; Ahmad Khalid <akh...@staff.bond.edu.au>; Jawed Hilali <jhela...@yahoo.com>; Col Aziz <cola...@yahoo.com>; Mustafa Chowdhury <mustafa.c...@gmail.com>; Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com>; Farid Islam <isl...@uvsc.edu>; Imran Ahmad <imran.a...@gmail.com>; Nizam Ahmad <nizam...@sky.com>; ""gmurta...@hotmail.com"" <gmurta...@hotmail.com>; Mumtaz Iqbal <miq...@rogers.com>; ""jamal...@googlemail.com"" <jamal...@googlemail.com>; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com>

Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:34 AM

Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

I am very sorry. Didn't know that.

regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Matin Ahmed]

I didn’t either. Apologies.

Matin

[Ali Shaheen]

LOL no problem at all.

[Ali Shaheen]

No need to apologize and please don't let that cramp your style :)

[Ali Shaheen]

Javed is right - it is actually Shaheen Ali, but surely my gender has no relevance to any debate.

[Ali Shaheen]

You are right about Newton - though he did study Hebrew extensively at some point, and was into Judaism which is probably why he has also been claimed by Jews.

We are in total agreement when you say that a secular state is the best solution.  The West has a much longer history with secularism than any other part of the world and change came over several centuries.  But even in the U.S. we have seen the rise of the Tea Party and Creationists.  India is a secular state but it hasn't been able to get rid of the caste system or communalism in a practical social sense.  And having a large Muslim population gives India the rationale and justification for a secular state despite the BJP, RSS etc.  Turkey imposed it by force and even in Turkey there has been some Islamic resurgence and hijabs are back.  In this day and age imposing secularism by force will simply not work in the Muslim world which considers itself threatened and under siege following 9/11.  As a result they are hanging on even more tightly to Islam. 

I would therefore propose that it would be politically more astute to bring about change incrementally in the Muslim world.  We aren't going to convince fundos on the merits of secularism overnight.  Perhaps we could get them to buy in if we called it spiritual democracy.  Fundamentalist Muslim societies are still burning witches at the stake - i.e. beheading  the heretic, stoning women, not allowing them to drive or travel etc.  The tragedy of Islam is that fundamentalism is still mainstream in that the majority of Muslims take the Quran literally.  Moderate and secular Muslims like ourselves feel threatened and can only debate in the safety of closed groups such as this - after all, who wants to risk a fatwa or beheading!  And we are fluent in English, not the language of the masses so those who are brave enough to speak out may not be reaching those who need to hear. It is no surprise that the Muslim world has failed to evolve in any meaningful way. 

Social change does not take place without a comprehensive strategy involving the education system, media, political and legal framework.  There was a time when we drove without seat belts and smoked wherever we wanted.  But those attitudes changed over time, so change is possible provided we have the laws, the political will, the media campaign and the educational strategy.  We can't expect secular democracies in the Muslim world if the people are immersed in madrasahs, they don't have jobs and politicians deliberately use religion as the opium of the masses, and demonize and blame the West and Israel for all our problems. After all anything bad that happens to us is explained away by saying it is because we are not following the Quran, Sunnah and Shariah :).

We both want to get to secular democracies.  My emphasis is on putting in place the systems and structures that will support a secular democracy first.  I think you will agree.

Am really enjoying these debates -  and your hometown. Lahore appears changed after 20 years - the weather is great, though people here complain of the cold.  Beats Canadian winters anyday :).

Take care, 

Shaheen  

[Ali Shaheen]

You are right Taj, ideally - but given the need for role models, her gender, religion etc. are also worth celebrating.  That is how little Muslim, African/Arab/Coptic,Egyptian girls will get inspired :) 

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

I am glad and relieved. I think we are agreed on our objective and on strategy and priorities we indeed need to ponder and discuss because I acutely aware of the fact that no road map is going to be easy. However, I tell my friends that till 1946 Sweden was a religion-based majoritarian democracy. Till 1946 for having a job as a school teacher even one had to belong the the Lutheran faith. Non-Lutheran Christians and non-Christians in general had the right to religious freedom privately but political rights were confined only to those having the right faith. So, if these societies can change so can ours. What all needs to be done is still largely unclear. However, for anything like this to happen the intellectuals in large numbers have to begin to appreciate the need to limit the power of religion. That is what the European Enlightenment actually achieved. It did not mean the end of religion but de-legitimizing religious authority with regard to the rights of citizens and the role of government.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Hasan Mahmud]

Well said, Ishtiaq.

 

I wish you watch this short piece - I believe this is best the way to achieve what you want to see - taming the power of religionists:-

 

http://www.hasanmahmud.com/2012/index.php/movie

 

Best and carry your good work.

 

Hasan Mahmud. 

From: Ishtiaq Ahmed <bill...@gmail.com>
To: Ali Shaheen <alishah...@gmail.com>
Cc: Hasan Mahmud <ha...@hasanmahmud.com>; Dr. Hasanat Husain <dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk>; Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; Mintu Haq <min...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Karim <cs...@yahoo.com>; Ishita Mehjabin <ishi.m...@gmail.com>; ""azads...@yahoo.com"" <azads...@yahoo.com>; ""kalac...@msn.com"" <kalac...@msn.com>; Chin Banerjee <cban...@shaw.ca>; Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com>; Showkat Kazi <kazi...@mail.com>; ""zog...@hotmail.co.uk"" <zog...@hotmail.co.uk>; MBI Munshi <mbim...@gmail.com>; Moyeedul Allem <m.al...@gmail.com>; Enamul Choudhury <nac...@inbox.com>; ""pagur...@googlemail.com"" <pagur...@googlemail.com>; Abdul Waseh <waseh...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Hussain <sajjad.h...@yahoo.com>; Fida Kamal <kamal...@gmail.com>; belal baaquie <belalb...@gmail.com>; Hassan Mansur <hassanm...@gmail.com>; Adnan Mahbub <adnan....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Faruque <afar...@adb.org>; ""mabisp...@hotmail.com"" <mabisp...@hotmail.com>; Abdullah Baqi <a_b...@hotmail.com>; Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk>; Jawaid Ahmed <jawaid_...@yahoo.com>; HasanZillurRahim PFC <has...@msn.com>; PFC <pfc...@googlegroups.com>; ""masudh...@yahoo.com"" <masudh...@yahoo.com>; Wali Mondal <monda...@gmail.com>; abdul momen <abdul...@hotmail.com>; Shah Jahan PFC <dark...@yahoo.com>; Hubert Rozario <hubert...@hotmail.com>; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman <nafee...@hotmail.com>; Arman Mahbub <mahbub...@gmail.com>; Shahid Hafiz Dadu <pank...@hotmail.com>; Hasanat Murtaza <hasanat...@hotmail.com>; Musabbir Khan <pagur...@gmail.com>; Rizwan Islam <rizwanu...@gmail.com>; Tareq Ahmed <est...@hotmail.com>; Zulfiqar Sadeque <zulfi....@international.gc.ca>; Matinuddin Ahmed <matin...@sbcglobal.net>; Enam Chowdhury <enamu...@yahoo.com>; Abu Nasr Wahid <awahi...@gmail.com>; ""abid....@gmail.com"" <abid....@gmail.com>; ""pfc-f...@googlegroups.com"" <pfc-f...@googlegroups.com>; ""jil...@ananash.com"" <jil...@ananash.com>; LtG Tahir Qazi <tahir...@hotmail.com>; Ashraf Khan <ashra...@hotmail.com>; Luthfur Choudhury <l...@spryservices.com>; ""tare...@outlook.com"" <tare...@outlook.com>; Shamsher M Chowdhury <shamsher....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Kamal <abul...@hotmail.com>; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury <rahman.c...@wfp.org>; ""bhui...@hotmail.com"" <bhui...@hotmail.com>; Shamsul Chowdhury <sha...@gmail.com>; Barkat Khuda <bark...@yahoo.com>; ""sh...@ccri.edu"" <sh...@ccri.edu>; Osmani PFC <sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk>; Ahrar Ahmad <ahrar...@bhsu.edu>; Salehuddin Ahmed <sahm...@hotmail.com>; Gowher Rizvi <gowher...@gmail.com>; Ahmad Khalid <akh...@staff.bond.edu.au>; Jawed Hilali <jhela...@yahoo.com>; Col Aziz <cola...@yahoo.com>; Mustafa Chowdhury <mustafa.c...@gmail.com>; Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com>; Farid Islam <isl...@uvsc.edu>; Imran Ahmad <imran.a...@gmail.com>; Nizam Ahmad <nizam...@sky.com>; ""gmurta...@hotmail.com"" <gmurta...@hotmail.com>; Mumtaz Iqbal <miq...@rogers.com>; ""jamal...@googlemail.com"" <jamal...@googlemail.com>; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

[Hasan Mahmud]

You are most welcome Jamal !

Hasan Mahmud

From: Jamal Munshi <jamal...@gmail.com>
To: Hasan Mahmud <ha...@hasanmahmud.com>
Cc: "pfc-f...@googlegroups.com" <pfc-f...@googlegroups.com>; Ali Shaheen <alishah...@gmail.com>; Dr. Hasanat Husain <dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk>; Taj Hashmi <tajh...@gmail.com>; Mintu Haq <min...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Karim <cs...@yahoo.com>; Ishita Mehjabin <ishi.m...@gmail.com>; "azads...@yahoo.com" <azads...@yahoo.com>; "kalac...@msn.com" <kalac...@msn.com>; Chin Banerjee <cban...@shaw.ca>; Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com>; Showkat Kazi <kazi...@mail.com>; "zog...@hotmail.co.uk" <zog...@hotmail.co.uk>; MBI Munshi <mbim...@gmail.com>; Moyeedul Allem <m.al...@gmail.com>; Enamul Choudhury <nac...@inbox.com>; "pagur...@googlemail.com" <pagur...@googlemail.com>; Abdul Waseh <waseh...@yahoo.com>; Sajjad Hussain <sajjad.h...@yahoo.com>; Fida Kamal <kamal...@gmail.com>; belal baaquie <belalb...@gmail.com>; Hassan Mansur <hassanm...@gmail.com>; Adnan Mahbub <adnan....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Faruque <afar...@adb.org>; "mabisp...@hotmail.com" <mabisp...@hotmail.com>; Abdullah Baqi <a_b...@hotmail.com>; Iftikhar Malik <i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk>; Jawaid Ahmed <jawaid_...@yahoo.com>; HasanZillurRahim PFC <has...@msn.com>; PFC <pfc...@googlegroups.com>; "masudh...@yahoo.com" <masudh...@yahoo.com>; Wali Mondal <monda...@gmail.com>; abdul momen <abdul...@hotmail.com>; Shah Jahan PFC <dark...@yahoo.com>; Hubert Rozario <hubert...@hotmail.com>; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman <nafee...@hotmail.com>; Arman Mahbub <mahbub...@gmail.com>; Shahid Hafiz Dadu <pank...@hotmail.com>; Hasanat Murtaza <hasanat...@hotmail.com>; Musabbir Khan <pagur...@gmail.com>; Rizwan Islam <rizwanu...@gmail.com>; Tareq Ahmed <est...@hotmail.com>; Zulfiqar Sadeque <zulfi....@international.gc.ca>; Matinuddin Ahmed <matin...@sbcglobal.net>; Enam Chowdhury <enamu...@yahoo.com>; Abu Nasr Wahid <awahi...@gmail.com>; "abid....@gmail.com" <abid....@gmail.com>; "jil...@ananash.com" <jil...@ananash.com>; LtG Tahir Qazi <tahir...@hotmail.com>; Ashraf Khan <ashra...@hotmail.com>; Luthfur Choudhury <l...@spryservices.com>; "tare...@outlook.com" <tare...@outlook.com>; Shamsher M Chowdhury <shamsher....@gmail.com>; Ahmed Kamal <abul...@hotmail.com>; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury <rahman.c...@wfp.org>; "bhui...@hotmail.com" <bhui...@hotmail.com>; Shamsul Chowdhury <sha...@gmail.com>; Barkat Khuda <bark...@yahoo.com>; "sh...@ccri.edu" <sh...@ccri.edu>; Osmani PFC <sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk>; Ahrar Ahmad <ahrar...@bhsu.edu>; Salehuddin Ahmed <sahm...@hotmail.com>; Gowher Rizvi <gowher...@gmail.com>; Ahmad Khalid <akh...@staff.bond.edu.au>; Jawed Hilali <jhela...@yahoo.com>; Col Aziz <cola...@yahoo.com>; Mustafa Chowdhury <mustafa.c...@gmail.com>; Taj Hashmi <taj_h...@hotmail.com>; Farid Islam <isl...@uvsc.edu>; Imran Ahmad <imran.a...@gmail.com>; Nizam Ahmad <nizam...@sky.com>; "gmurta...@hotmail.com" <gmurta...@hotmail.com>; Mumtaz Iqbal <miq...@rogers.com>; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik <drahmadra...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

watched the video and also visited hasanmahmud.com

it's a site worth visiting

thank you hasan

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--
"Later, I began to succeed in decisive games. Perhaps because I realized a very simple truth: not only was I worried, but also my opponent." Mikhail Tal

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Thanks for this very bold and honest presentation, Mahmud, of your case. However, Abdullah Ahmed An-Naim is a man of all seasons. Way back in the 1990s he was an opponent of secularism and did something completely unethical. He lifted my argument in my doctoral thesis, The Concept of an Islamic State. An Ideological Controversy in Pakistan (published by Frances Pinter and St Martin's Press in 1987), in which I analysed 9 positions on the Islamic state in Pakistan. These were organized into 4 clusters of which the last one was that it is perfectly possible to have a secular state for a Muslim society. The last position was a minority position but advanced by the former chief justice of Pakistan, Muhammad Munir. An-Nain, if you read his book, Toward an Islamic Reformation, literally borrows all my arguments against fundamentalism, but, the fourth cluster he excludes and instead sets forth the first three - concluding that one can have an Islamic state but one without the Quranic verses from Medina. Instead one should rely on the Meccan verses. This line of argument has been taken by others too but his ustad Mahmud I believe was hanged in Sudan for arguing along these lines. He also opposed secularim, changing tag from separating poliitcs from the state but not divine law from the state. In the 'existing literature' he very cleverly mentions my book but without the fourth cluster which is in favour of secularism. This I think was very dishonest. Additionally, while mentioning my book, he cleverly evades accepting how much of what he says is actually what I had said. When we met in Stockholm in 1992 he held my hand and just went on and on expressing how much he learnt from me but this is nowhere acknowledged in the book in any way.

So, an additional congratulations to you - you have compelled him to move even further away in the correct direction. I hope he does not start now marketing your contribution as his own. He rides always on a crest whose momentum is not necessarily the labour of his effort. 

All the best,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ali Shaheen]

Agreed.  My fear is that if intellectuals living in the Muslim world try to limit the power of religion they will risk getting harrassed, imprisoned or killed.  They need to build coalitions and use their skills to reform religion itself in ways that are palatable.  In many ways the Quran is like a horoscope, you will find what you want in it.  It has stuff that is reactionary and makes you cringe as well as stuff that is quite liberal and enlightened.  We can emphasize the liberal aspects.  The Quran itself evolved over time, in that later surahs replaced earlier ones. Therefore, we can move forward with the spirit and intent of Islam that would be more relevant in the 21st. century, without adhering to 7th. century practices.  For example Islam talks about social justice, yet allows slavery because that was part of the historical context.  The spirit and intent of the principle of social justice means that there is no place in 21st. century Islam for slavery.  Much of what is passed off in the name of Islam in places like Saudi Arabia are not really Islamic.  If we could even make the shift to focusing on principles of Islam rather than the practices in Shariah, Sunnah or Hadees, that would bring us into the 21st. century.  What we need to emphasize is that the principles are for all time, the practices were relevant to a particular social, cultural and historical context.  

Saudi Arabia's influence in the Muslim world is economic and political - not religious, other than the fact that they control access to the Kaaba.  Does it not boggle the mind that they can destroy Khatija's home and replace it with toilets  without a peep from the Muslim world?   That has to do with political and economic clout.  Intellectuals can navel gaze until they are blue in the face, unfortunately it won't make much difference :).  Much of what I am suggesting has already been proposed but we have failed to make the links across different sectors.  Intellectuals need to join hands with like minded politicians and religious scholars to foster a climate where there is freedom of speech and religion within Islam itself.  We can then brainstorm on priorities e.g. the status of women, a humane criminal code, Muslim on Muslim violence, status of minorities, Muslim democracy etc. and strategies on getting there. 

The West has evolved from being a Christian society to a secular one over time.  Christianity had its Reformation, Islam hasn't. Most Christians don't take the Bible literally, most Muslims do.  Christians don't fret over who is a Christian, i.e. if you say you are, then you are one.  Muslims feel the need to declare people non-Muslims (e.g. Ahmedis) and kill others (e.g. Shias) if they don't follow a particular brand of Islam.  Diversity is a spiritual principle too and can be justified from within the Quran i.e. Allah likes diversity which is why S/He made all these religions and cultures and the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion, unto you your religion, etc. etc.  Non-Western folk are pretty enlightened too and there is much we can learn from non-Western progressive societies, and Aboriginal communities.  Perhaps we can try for Eastern Enlightenment using some of these principles since anything borrowed from the West only gets a knee-jerk reaction in the Muslim world :).

I think it is possible to de-legitimize religious authority in Islam if we approach it from the angle of Muslim on Muslim violence i.e. tolerance also begins at home so let's allow religious freedom within Islam and extend it to others.  Isn't there some saying in the Quran that Muslims should not be killing other Muslims? Let us allow people to follow their own version of Islam privately and respect their right to disagree. The Quran also says we should not be judging other people's faith because that is up to God. Since there are many sects in Islam it does not make sense to have Shariah law which is not common to all sects so let us make State laws based on Islamic principles which allow practices that are relevant today.  The status of women, minorities and a humane criminal code can also be addressed within the context of violence.

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

These are very useful observations indeed and I am in agreement with you. If we keep the goal and objective in mind then strategy and methods can always be discussed and improved. Do have a great time in Lahore Ali Shaheen Sahiba.

One submission to all friends. While writing spontaneously I make too many typing errors and when later I read what I have written there are words missing or wrongly structured. The best is to have the patience to read again before submitting but that I could never learn. May I take this opportunity to introduce my new book just released today by Oxford University Press, Karachi. 

My other one, on the Punjab partition is also worth reading. It is given with my signature below. It has been on the bestseller list in India although I showed that more Muslims died in the partition of Punjab than Hindus and Sikhs together. It is based on hundreds of interviews from both sides and done in the cities and villages of East and West Punjab. As a Swedish citizen I could do that. But do have a look at my new book below as well. 

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

http://www.oup.com.pk/shopexd.asp?id=2416

Description This study seeks to solve the following puzzle: In 1947, the Pakistan military was poorly trained and poorly armed. It also inherited highly vulnerable territory vis-à-vis the much bigger India, aggravated because of serious disputes with Afghanistan. Defence and security were therefore issues that no Pakistan government, civil or military, could ignore. The military did not take part in politics directly until 1958, although it was called upon to restore order in 1953 in the Punjab province. Over the years, the military, or rather the Pakistan Army, continued to grow in power and influence, and progressively became the most powerful institution. Moreover, it became an institution with de facto veto powers at its disposal to overrule other actors within society including elected governments. Simultaneously, it began to acquire foreign patrons and donors willing to arm it as part of the Cold War competition (the United States), regional balance-of-power concerns (China), and ideological contestants for leadership over the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, to contain Iranian influence). A perennial concern with defining the Islamic identity of Pakistan, exacerbated by the Afghan jihad, resulted in the convergence of internal and external factors to produce the ‘fortress of Islam’ self-description that became current in the early twenty-first century. Over time, Pakistan succumbed to extremism and terrorism within and was accused of being involved in similar activities within the South Asian region and beyond. Such developments have been ruinous to Pakistan’s economic and democratic development. The following questions are posed to shed further light:   1. What is the relationship between the internal and external factors in explaining the rise of the military as the most powerful institution in Pakistan? 2. What have been the consequences of such politics for the political and economic development in Pakistan? 3. What are the future prospects for Pakistan?   A conceptual and theoretical framework combining the notion of a post-colonial state and Harold Lasswell’s concept of a garrison state is propounded to analyse the evolution of Pakistan as a fortress of Islam. About the Author / Editor Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007–2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and, indeed, partition studies. Hardback 508 pages  2013 ISBN: 9780199066360 Price: Rs.1,295.00

[Taj Hashmi]

Congratulations Ishtiaq! I look forward to reading it.

Taj

---

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:18:45 +0100

Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

From: bill...@gmail.com
To: alishah...@gmail.com
CC: ha...@hasanmahmud.com; dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk; tajh...@gmail.com; min...@yahoo.com; cs...@yahoo.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; kalac...@msn.com; cban...@shaw.ca; hniz...@hotmail.com; kazi...@mail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; mbim...@gmail.com; m.al...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; pagur...@googlemail.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; belalb...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; adnan....@gmail.com; afar...@adb.org; mabisp...@hotmail.com; a_b...@hotmail.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; has...@msn.com; pfc...@googlegroups.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; dark...@yahoo.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; est...@hotmail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; matin...@sbcglobal.net; enamu...@yahoo.com; awahi...@gmail.com; abid....@gmail.com; pfc-f...@googlegroups.com; jil...@ananash.com; tahir...@hotmail.com; ashra...@hotmail.com; l...@spryservices.com; tare...@outlook.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; bhui...@hotmail.com; sha...@gmail.com; bark...@yahoo.com; sh...@ccri.edu; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; sahm...@hotmail.com; gowher...@gmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; jhela...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; imran.a...@gmail.com; nizam...@sky.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; drahmadra...@hotmail.com

These are very useful observations indeed and I am in agreement with you. If we keep the goal and objective in mind then strategy and methods can always be discussed and improved. Do have a great time in Lahore Ali Shaheen Sahiba.

One submission to all friends. While writing spontaneously I make too many typing errors and when later I read what I have written there are words missing or wrongly structured. The best is to have the patience to read again before submitting but that I could never learn. May I take this opportunity to introduce my new book just released today by Oxford University Press, Karachi. 

My other one, on the Punjab partition is also worth reading. It is given with my signature below. It has been on the bestseller list in India although I showed that more Muslims died in the partition of Punjab than Hindus and Sikhs together. It is based on hundreds of interviews from both sides and done in the cities and villages of East and West Punjab. As a Swedish citizen I could do that. But do have a look at my new book below as well. 

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

http://www.oup.com.pk/shopexd.asp?id=2416

Description This study seeks to solve the following puzzle: In 1947, the Pakistan military was poorly trained and poorly armed. It also inherited highly vulnerable territory vis-à-vis the much bigger India, aggravated because of serious disputes with Afghanistan. Defence and security were therefore issues that no Pakistan government, civil or military, could ignore. The military did not take part in politics directly until 1958, although it was called upon to restore order in 1953 in the Punjab province. Over the years, the military, or rather the Pakistan Army, continued to grow in power and influence, and progressively became the most powerful institution. Moreover, it became an institution with de facto veto powers at its disposal to overrule other actors within society including elected governments. Simultaneously, it began to acquire foreign patrons and donors willing to arm it as part of the Cold War competition (the United States), regional balance-of-power concerns (China), and ideological contestants for leadership over the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, to contain Iranian influence). A perennial concern with defining the Islamic identity of Pakistan, exacerbated by the Afghan jihad, resulted in the convergence of internal and external factors to produce the ‘fortress of Islam’ self-description that became current in the early twenty-first century. Over time, Pakistan succumbed to extremism and terrorism within and was accused of being involved in similar activities within the South Asian region and beyond. Such developments have been ruinous to Pakistan’s economic and democratic development. The following questions are posed to shed further light:   1. What is the relationship between the internal and external factors in explaining the rise of the military as the most powerful institution in Pakistan? 2. What have been the consequences of such politics for the political and economic development in Pakistan? 3. What are the future prospects for Pakistan?   A conceptual and theoretical framework combining the notion of a post-colonial state and Harold Lasswell’s concept of a garrison state is propounded to analyse the evolution of Pakistan as a fortress of Islam. About the Author / Editor Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007–2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and, indeed, partition studies.

Hardback 508 pages  2013 ISBN: 9780199066360 Price: Rs.1,295.00

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Thanks Taj, it is friends and colleagues like you who inspire one to try these topics. I will see to it you get a review copy. Any success with Guha?

Best,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ehsan Ahrari]

Have I missed reading the title of your new book, or you are talking about the re-release of your old book?

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

My Punjab book is the following: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011)

The new book is the following: 

http://www.oup.com.pk/shopexd.asp?id=2416

Description This study seeks to solve the following puzzle: In 1947, the Pakistan military was poorly trained and poorly armed. It also inherited highly vulnerable territory vis-à-vis the much bigger India, aggravated because of serious disputes with Afghanistan. Defence and security were therefore issues that no Pakistan government, civil or military, could ignore. The military did not take part in politics directly until 1958, although it was called upon to restore order in 1953 in the Punjab province. Over the years, the military, or rather the Pakistan Army, continued to grow in power and influence, and progressively became the most powerful institution. Moreover, it became an institution with de facto veto powers at its disposal to overrule other actors within society including elected governments. Simultaneously, it began to acquire foreign patrons and donors willing to arm it as part of the Cold War competition (the United States), regional balance-of-power concerns (China), and ideological contestants for leadership over the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, to contain Iranian influence). A perennial concern with defining the Islamic identity of Pakistan, exacerbated by the Afghan jihad, resulted in the convergence of internal and external factors to produce the ‘fortress of Islam’ self-description that became current in the early twenty-first century. Over time, Pakistan succumbed to extremism and terrorism within and was accused of being involved in similar activities within the South Asian region and beyond. Such developments have been ruinous to Pakistan’s economic and democratic development. The following questions are posed to shed further light:   1. What is the relationship between the internal and external factors in explaining the rise of the military as the most powerful institution in Pakistan? 2. What have been the consequences of such politics for the political and economic development in Pakistan? 3. What are the future prospects for Pakistan?   A conceptual and theoretical framework combining the notion of a post-colonial state and Harold Lasswell’s concept of a garrison state is propounded to analyse the evolution of Pakistan as a fortress of Islam. About the Author / Editor Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007–2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and, indeed, partition studies. Hardback 508 pages  2013 ISBN: 9780199066360 Price: Rs.1,295.00

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore.His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

http://www.oup.com.pk/shopexd.asp?id=2416

Description This study seeks to solve the following puzzle: In 1947, the Pakistan military was poorly trained and poorly armed. It also inherited highly vulnerable territory vis-à-vis the much bigger India, aggravated because of serious disputes with Afghanistan. Defence and security were therefore issues that no Pakistan government, civil or military, could ignore. The military did not take part in politics directly until 1958, although it was called upon to restore order in 1953 in the Punjab province. Over the years, the military, or rather the Pakistan Army, continued to grow in power and influence, and progressively became the most powerful institution. Moreover, it became an institution with de facto veto powers at its disposal to overrule other actors within society including elected governments. Simultaneously, it began to acquire foreign patrons and donors willing to arm it as part of the Cold War competition (the United States), regional balance-of-power concerns (China), and ideological contestants for leadership over the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, to contain Iranian influence). A perennial concern with defining the Islamic identity of Pakistan, exacerbated by the Afghan jihad, resulted in the convergence of internal and external factors to produce the ‘fortress of Islam’ self-description that became current in the early twenty-first century. Over time, Pakistan succumbed to extremism and terrorism within and was accused of being involved in similar activities within the South Asian region and beyond. Such developments have been ruinous to Pakistan’s economic and democratic development. The following questions are posed to shed further light:   1. What is the relationship between the internal and external factors in explaining the rise of the military as the most powerful institution in Pakistan? 2. What have been the consequences of such politics for the political and economic development in Pakistan? 3. What are the future prospects for Pakistan?   A conceptual and theoretical framework combining the notion of a post-colonial state and Harold Lasswell’s concept of a garrison state is propounded to analyse the evolution of Pakistan as a fortress of Islam. About the Author / Editor Ishtiaq Ahmed was born in Lahore on 24 February 1947. He received a PhD in Political Science from Stockholm University in 1986. He taught at Stockholm University from 1987 to 2007, and was then invited as Senior Research Fellow and Visiting Research Professor by the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore, during 2007–2010. He is now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University and Honorary Senior Fellow, Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He has published extensively on Pakistani and South Asian politics. His research interests cover fields as diverse as political Islam, ethnicity and nationalism, human and minority rights, and, indeed, partition studies. Hardback 508 pages  2013 ISBN: 9780199066360 Price: Rs.1,295.00

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Do let me know if still have received the new book information.

Regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ehsan Ahrari]

I did not know that you also write about security issues.  This looks interesting.  I thought you are a political theorist.  Congratulations!

 

From: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pfc-f...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ishtiaq Ahmed
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:34 AM
To: Ali Shaheen
Cc: Hasan Mahmud; Dr. Hasanat Husain; Taj Hashmi; Mintu Haq; Sajjad Karim; Ishita Mehjabin; "azads...@yahoo.com"; "kalac...@msn.com"; Chin Banerjee; Haider Nizamani; Showkat Kazi; "zog...@hotmail.co.uk"; MBI Munshi; Moyeedul Allem; Enamul Choudhury; "pagur...@googlemail.com"; Abdul Waseh; Sajjad Hussain; Fida Kamal; belal baaquie; Hassan Mansur; Adnan Mahbub; Ahmed Faruque; "mabisp...@hotmail.com"; Abdullah Baqi; Iftikhar Malik; Jawaid Ahmed; HasanZillurRahim PFC; PFC; "masudh...@yahoo.com"; Wali Mondal; abdul momen; Shah Jahan PFC; Hubert Rozario; Md. Nafees Ur Rahman; Arman Mahbub; Shahid Hafiz Dadu; Hasanat Murtaza; Musabbir Khan; Rizwan Islam; Tareq Ahmed; Zulfiqar Sadeque; Matinuddin Ahmed; Enam Chowdhury; Abu Nasr Wahid; "abid....@gmail.com"; "pfc-f...@googlegroups.com"; "jil...@ananash.com"; LtG Tahir Qazi; Ashraf Khan; Luthfur Choudhury; "tare...@outlook.com"; Shamsher M Chowdhury; Ahmed Kamal; Abdur Rahman Chowdhury; "bhui...@hotmail.com"; Shamsul Chowdhury; Barkat Khuda; "sh...@ccri.edu"; Osmani PFC; Ahrar Ahmad; Salehuddin Ahmed; Gowher Rizvi; Ahmad Khalid; Jawed Hilali; Col Aziz; Mustafa Chowdhury; Taj Hashmi; Farid Islam; Imran Ahmad; Nizam Ahmad; "gmurta...@hotmail.com"; Mumtaz Iqbal; "jamal...@googlemail.com"; Dr Ahmad Rashid Malik
Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

 

My Punjab book is the following: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011)

Ishtiaq

 

 

 

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[Iftikhar Malik]

Following on from my worthy friend, Haider Nizamani's email, can I request friends here to unsubscribe me from this group "pfc-friends"?
Many thanks and best wishes,
Iftikhar

On 15 January 2013 15:20, Haider Nizamani <hniz...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 Respectable Friends,
I have sent umpteen requests to unsubscribe me from this group called "pfc-friends" but it hasn't worked. I request all and any of you to please help me unsubscribe from this group.
 

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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:30:45 +0100

Subject: Re: 'What Muslims have Invented'

From: bill...@gmail.com
To: pfc-f...@googlegroups.com
CC: alishah...@gmail.com; dr.hasan...@yahoo.co.uk; tajh...@gmail.com; min...@yahoo.com; cs...@yahoo.com; ishi.m...@gmail.com; azads...@yahoo.com; kalac...@msn.com; cban...@shaw.ca; hniz...@hotmail.com; kazi...@mail.com; zog...@hotmail.co.uk; mbim...@gmail.com; m.al...@gmail.com; nac...@inbox.com; pagur...@googlemail.com; waseh...@yahoo.com; sajjad.h...@yahoo.com; kamal...@gmail.com; belalb...@gmail.com; hassanm...@gmail.com; adnan....@gmail.com; afar...@adb.org; mabisp...@hotmail.com; a_b...@hotmail.com; i.m...@bathspa.ac.uk; jawaid_...@yahoo.com; has...@msn.com; pfc...@googlegroups.com; masudh...@yahoo.com; monda...@gmail.com; abdul...@hotmail.com; dark...@yahoo.com; hubert...@hotmail.com; nafee...@hotmail.com; mahbub...@gmail.com; pank...@hotmail.com; hasanat...@hotmail.com; pagur...@gmail.com; rizwanu...@gmail.com; est...@hotmail.com; zulfi....@international.gc.ca; matin...@sbcglobal.net; enamu...@yahoo.com; awahi...@gmail.com; abid....@gmail.com; jil...@ananash.com; tahir...@hotmail.com; ashra...@hotmail.com; l...@spryservices.com; tare...@outlook.com; shamsher....@gmail.com; abul...@hotmail.com; rahman.c...@wfp.org; bhui...@hotmail.com; sha...@gmail.com; bark...@yahoo.com; sh...@ccri.edu; sr.o...@ulster.ac.uk; ahrar...@bhsu.edu; sahm...@hotmail.com; gowher...@gmail.com; akh...@staff.bond.edu.au; jhela...@yahoo.com; cola...@yahoo.com; mustafa.c...@gmail.com; taj_h...@hotmail.com; isl...@uvsc.edu; imran.a...@gmail.com; nizam...@sky.com; gmurta...@hotmail.com; miq...@rogers.com; jamal...@googlemail.com; drahmadra...@hotmail.com

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[Ishtiaq Ahmed]

Thank you very much  Ehsan Ahrari Sahib,

I am a political scientist and have brought my bit of political theory and science to analyse the far more complex nature of security syndrome that obtains in Pakistan. Let's see if I succeeded in doing that.

Every Punjabi must read my book on the partition of the Punjab and indeed all those who have studied genocide and ethnic cleansing and read Manto and Krishan Chander. Once again a product of a political scientist but using innovative techniques to find out the truth hidden or obfuscated for 65 years.

Best regards,

Ishtiaq

The writer has a PhD from Stockholm University. He is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Stockholm University. He is also Honorary Senior Fellow of the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. His latest publication is: The Punjab Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed: Unravelling the 1947 Tragedy through Secret British Reports and First-Person Accounts (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012; New Delhi: Rupa Books, 2011). He can be reached at: bill...@gmail.com

[Ehsan Ahrari]

Ishtiaq Sahib, I am glad to learn about your background. 

 

A Pakistani friend suggested that I look at your book on Punjab.  I might do that someday. 

 

I am more of a international security freak and that is also an important aspect of my current business here. 

 

So, I might have an opportunity to read your recent book on your native land.  The Punjab book has to wait another time.  I am too busy in preparing a monograph on US-Iran security syndrome these days.  I am also trying to speed read a couple of other books on Pakistan, which I was asked to review.

 

Cheers,

 

Ehsan

[Salehuddin Ahmed]

Dear pfc friends,

Please unscribe me from pfc friends, because I am becoming crammed in my gmail and also I have the same friends through another network.  Thanks.

Salehuddin
Dhaka/1051/160113

[Salehuddin Ahmed]

Sorry it should be 'unsubscribe'. 

[Jack McDuff]

For Farsi readers, this BBC piece reflects the fact that while much of the international media attributes the crisis to the sanctions… In Iran, the blame is being firmly cast upon the regime’s leaders.

And another thanks to my Farsi speaking friends for this post, which explains how a member of the research committee of Iran’s Majlis encouraged the President to fire the Health Minister because of her interviews to the international media.

Apparently the truth hurts.

Read the full post about iran human rights violations

[Ehsan Ahrari]

What does it have to do with the price of corn? The subject matter in the subject line has nothing to do with what you are trying to promote.  More to the point, I am not sure what you are trying to promote. 

 

I don’t have time to read the long-winded blog that you referred to in your note.  If you have a specific point or two, please make them and you can send them on my personal e-mail without bothering others.

 

Thanks

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