Persian versus Farsi

[Vafa Khalighi]

What is the correct term? Should we use Persian or Farsi in English? Why people choose Farsi and not Persian for a piece of software that they develop?

I personally choose "Persian". Also see this article by the Circle of ancient Iranian studies.

[Vafa Khalighi]

Even if we want to use the localised form of the language, we should say "Parsi" instead "Farsi". There is no "P" in Arabic and that is how "Parsi" is changed into "Farsi".

[Saeed Darya]

This (Persian vs Farsi) may have been a valid argument 20 some years ago and 'Persian' was the English word of choice. But thanks to the recent contribution of Iranian government and our constant presence in the News, 'Farsi' is also known to the English speaking world. So, pick what works best for your software and marketing goals. Persian seems to be working just fine and communicates a positive feeling related to the quality of the product.

Vafa's point about 'Parsi' is valid, but there is no such a word in English vocabulary or dictionaries.  It's more Arab vs Ajam argument that is the result of recent political situation.

Regards,
Saeed

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 8:26 AM, Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Even if we want to use the localised form of the language, we should say "Parsi" instead "Farsi". There is no "P" in Arabic and that is how "Parsi" is changed into "Farsi".

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

--
"The best way to predict the future is to create it."

[Mehdi Sharifzadeh (مهدی شریف زاده)‎]

Hi Vafa and Saeed, 

Based on a some research into the background of these words, we decided to use Persian as the English name for the language and Farsi (فارسی)  in a localized context across all Google products. We recently changed "Parsi" to "Farsi" in our logos because the former is not really the name of the language and it's been used to emphasize on the Arab vs Persian argument.

--Mehdi

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Hedayat Vatankhah]

Hi,
AFAIK, the correct English word for the language is Persian. Though, I don't have any references currently at hand.
However, the correct Persian word for the language is certainly "Farsi". Yes, it might have been Parsi before and changed to Farsi later for whatever reason, but it *is* Farsi *now*.

Good luck,
Hedayat

Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com> wrote on 06/10/2011 4:56:50 PM +0450:

Even if we want to use the localised form of the language, we should say "Parsi" instead "Farsi". There is no "P" in Arabic and that is how "Parsi" is changed into "Farsi".

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Vafa Khalighi]

We recently changed "Parsi" to "Farsi" in our logos because the former is not really the name of the language and it's been used to emphasize on the Arab vs Persian argument.

I do not think so. As an Iranian Zoroastrian, I have used to speak two languages: my mother tongue which is Persian Dari and that is what we speak at home and modern Persian which is my national tongue. For both of these languages in localised form, we have been using "Parsi" instaed "Farsi".

[Connie Bobroff]

Vafa,

Do you replace the /f/ with /p/ in ALL words in your localised form or just this one word "Parsi"?

2011/6/10 Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com>

We recently changed "Parsi" to "Farsi" in our logos because the former is not really the name of the language and it's been used to emphasize on the Arab vs Persian argument.

I do not think so. As an Iranian Zoroastrian, I have used to speak two languages: my mother tongue which is Persian Dari and that is what we speak at home and modern Persian which is my national tongue. For both of these languages in localised form, we have been using "Parsi" instaed "Farsi".

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Karine Megerdoomian]

From a linguistics perspective, the correct term in English is Persian, which is a descendant of Old Persian and Middle Persian leading to what we refer to as New Persian in linguistics. Persian then includes the language spoken in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan. 

There is a modern usage of the term Farsi to refer to the dialect of Persian spoken in Iran, vs. Dari (in Afghanistan) and Tajiki (in Tajikistan). As a linguist, I prefer the terms Iranian Persian, Afghan Persian, and Tajiki Persian. After all, the various dialects of English are not referred to as American, British, Canadian and Australian - they are called American English, British English, Canadian English and Australian English.

For more linguistic perspectives, see http://www.iranianlinguistics.org/page.cgi?page=persian

-karine

On Jun 10, 2011, at 8:22 AM, Vafa Khalighi wrote:

What is the correct term? Should we use Persian or Farsi in English? Why people choose Farsi and not Persian for a piece of software that they develop?

I personally choose "Persian". Also see this article by the Circle of ancient Iranian studies.

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Behnam]

I'm not linguist but this sounds very reasonable to me.

However, I think we should avoid telling English speaking people how to use their own language! I don't recall any Français complaining about why we call their language 'Faraansavi'!

I don't want to ignore the politico-cultural background of this controversy. But it's our problem not theirs. At personal level, they can call Paarsi language whatever they want. In international official usage and regulatory domain, Karin's approach seems to me the right one. But please, leave the English speaking people out of it. Let them say whatever they want.

The link is one reaction (which has nothing to do with the dilution we might have about our impact on usage of Farsi  in English language, favourably or unfavourably):

http://www.iranian.com/main/2010/jul/defense-english

-behnam

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On top of that, there is the standardization perspective (which
usually follows the linguists' preference). Various ISO standards
prefer "Persian" to "Farsi", and so does the Iranian Academy of
Persian Language and Literature (one may argue that an academy of
Persian has no right to rule about the English language, but well,
they've done that anyway).

Roozbeh

PS: BTW, "Tajiki" Persian or "Tajik" Persian?

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Vafa Khalighi]

I can not claim that I replace P for F for every word, but for all the words that I know, I replace P for F.

[Dan]

As a linguist, I realize there are all kinds of labels that apply,
depending on how we decide to slice up the linguistic pie. So the kind
of Persian I speak can alternately be Persian, Farsi, Iranian Persian,
New Persian, colloquial Tehran Persian of upper-middle-class males,
Western Persian, Persian/Farsi (which is how the US government
categorizes it) and so on. I try to pick the right term for the right
slice.

Furthermore, as a linguist, I realize that we cannot dictate what
terms people will choose to use, or why. Despite the Farhangestân's
best efforts, I suspect the gadget I'm typing on right now will be
called a "kâmpyuter" far more often than a "râyâneh".

With my linguistics cap off, however, I know this is a Holy War, and
it's not one I choose to fight. Likewise, with all due respect to my
friends who care, I don't care if it's a "Persian" or an "Arabian"
Gulf, even though I use the former. Now vi/emacs, Perl/Python, and
Kirk/Picard are far more up my alley.

Oh... and Han shot first. :-)

-Dan.

[Connie Bobroff]

Vafa, So your name is pronounced /vapaa/ in your dialect?

 

Roozbeh, adding the -i to make an adjective produces interesting results in English. As I have learned from personal experience several years ago, if, when speaking English, you refer to an Afghan as an "Afghani" or refer to Afghan dialect as "Afghani" you may have an offended Afghan to answer to. Some Afghans really don't like the -i usage in English!

 

I recently saw a reference to the strong connotations this insignifican't -i in /afghaan-i/ carries in Persian in an article by Hamid Dabashi. Could one of the native speakers please verify this (without getting into a heated political debate)?

 

"We also recalled that in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the massive influx of Afghan refugees into Iran all sorts of crimes and misdemeanours were attributed to "Afghanis", with that extra "i" carrying a nasty racist intonation in Persian."

 

Source:

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/201139125740275442.html

 

 

 

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Ehsan Akhgari]

I think Hamid has a point in that article.  I don't think that this connotation can be attributed to the -i suffix in general though.

Cheers,
Ehsan

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Dan Parvaz]

Interesting. "Vafâ'" is AFAIK, an Arabic word to begin with... root w-f-y referring in general to integrity, completeness, fidelity. Should the "f" in that word also be de-Arabized? Of course, there may be an older Persian root -- in which case, I'd love to hear about it.

"We also recalled that in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the massive influx of Afghan refugees into Iran all sorts of crimes and misdemeanours were attributed to "Afghanis", with that extra "i" carrying a nasty racist intonation in Persian."

You mean "-i" as in "irâni", "dâneshjui", and "naxostvaziri"? I'm not seeing it. It's the word "Afghan" that probably carries the racist tone in Persian, not the adjectival suffix.

-Dan.

[Dan Parvaz]

Of course, I meant "Afghan" carries racist intonations in Iranian society, not Persian in general.

-Dan.

[Connie Bobroff]

There is another -i suffix in Persian, sometimes also part of -ak-i which makes a noun or substantive which ALREADY has negative connotations even more negative or pitiful. For example, 'khaak-dun-i', 'teflak-i', 'raast-ak-i'. If you have any more examples, let me know. I've never seen this documented in any linguistic work. I only base my conjectures on what I have heard in daily usage. When I saw Hamid Dabashi's statement, this was the only thing that came to my mind that could explain what he meant.

[Dan Parvaz]

Okay, I'm a little fuzzy on this, but there is an "-i" that might be seen as a dismissive, roughly meaning "... and the ilk.", but there's a whole package of other features -- some intonational, some lexical, some in the discourse -- that go with it. Absent those, -i is just the Persian version of the Semitic nisba.

Still skeptical, here. I want to see data/research. In any event, This is pretty tangential to the whole "Persian-vs.-Farsi" war... which I guess has *something* to do with computing, inasmuch as nomenclature is part of the whole thing.

-Dan.

[Dan Parvaz]

:::Speechless:::

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 9:11 PM, Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Dan Parvaz <dpa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting. "Vafâ'" is AFAIK, an Arabic word to begin with... root w-f-y referring in general to integrity, completeness, fidelity. Should the "f" in that word also be de-Arabized? Of course, there may be an older Persian root -- in which case, I'd love to hear about it.

No, Vafa is not Arabic. In Persian we have Vafa or وفا but in Arabic  you have Wafa or وفاء. These two words are even pronounced differently. My father took my name from Shahnameh, see all the entries in Shahnameh, containing the word Vafa: http://www.recent.ir/search.aspx?p=1&n=10&bf=0&d=shahnameh.recent.ir&q=%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7

[Behnam]

Connie,

Yes those i suffix may evoke a diminutive state, sometimes expressing affection rather than resentment, a 'cozy' description. But in the context, it may also evoke a hostile approach. The i suffix after a location has no other meaning than a person from that location.

If you are racist toward me, you may call me gentleman. It will feel insulting and racist just the same. It's all in the context.

I didn't read the article but 'without getting into a heated political debate', skip it. It has no linguistic merit whatsoever.

-b

[Connie Bobroff]

Vafa,

So do you pronounce your name as /vapaa/?

I mean the /f/ vs /p/ point....

Note that there are supposedly 706 Arabic words in the Shahnameh.

http://iranica.com/articles/sah-nama-v-arabic-words

 

 

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Dan Parvaz <dpa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting. "Vafâ'" is AFAIK, an Arabic word to begin with... root w-f-y referring in general to integrity, completeness, fidelity. Should the "f" in that word also be de-Arabized? Of course, there may be an older Persian root -- in which case, I'd love to hear about it.

[Connie Bobroff]

Moinfar is considered a scholar of high repute. He lives in France, by the way. Maybe you can contact him for further information.

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Vafa Khalighi <vaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Note that there are supposedly 706 Arabic words in the Shahnameh.

http://iranica.com/articles/sah-nama-v-arabic-words

 

Is it really proven? what I see from that article are a bunch of nonsense.

[Vafa Khalighi]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Dan Parvaz <dpa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting. "Vafâ'" is AFAIK, an Arabic word to begin with... root w-f-y referring in general to integrity, completeness, fidelity. Should the "f" in that word also be de-Arabized? Of course, there may be an older Persian root -- in which case, I'd love to hear about it.

[Vafa Khalighi]

Note that there are supposedly 706 Arabic words in the Shahnameh.

http://iranica.com/articles/sah-nama-v-arabic-words

 

[Vafa Khalighi]

No, I say It as Vafa.

[Peter von Kaehne]

A p/f and vice versa shift is entirely normal in Indoeuropean languages.
Both to separate them out and internally as part of dialects

Look at "Schiff" (German for ship, the German sch is pronounced like sh
in English) and "ship". In Northern Germany the shift has not happened
so pronouncedly as in Southern Germany, so the similarities between
North German "Plattdeutsch" and English are rather large.

Or the Latin and Persian words for father - "pater" and "pedar" vs the
German and the English "Vater" and "father".

Peter

[Dan Parvaz]

Nonsense it isn't. A bunch of of those are proper triliteral Semitic roots found across a range of the family... Hebrew, Ugaritic, Akkadian. For some real nonsense, go back to Vafa's argument that because Arabs pronounce words differently, they can't possibly be borrowings. Based on that logic, I can confidently say that there is no relation between English "mutton" and French "mouton" -- because, you know, there's only one "t" and the French talk funny.

Of course, there are borrowings the other way, as well. So Arabic "'ustaadh" comes from Persian "ostâd", and Hebrew "yad" (meaning "memory", as in "yad vashem", not "hand") comes from contact with Persian. But that doesn't take away from Moinfar's thesis.

You could quibble about "aflâton" being a genuine Arabic word, but there's little doubt it came to Persian through Arabic (as can been seen with other Greek names, e.g. "fisâghores"/Pythagoras), otherwise WTF (why the "f")? It's not like we needed it. :-)

-Dan.

[Vafa Khalighi]

good for you!

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Dan Parvaz <dpa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :::Speechless:::

+1

Roozbeh

[Roozbeh Pournader]

-1.

I can even say I'm offended...

Roozbeh

[Vafa Khalighi]

There is nothing that I can do for your feelings, the article already is offensive. And this is not facebook that you are trying to give +1 or -1.

[Behnam Esfahbod]

Vafa,

P-C is a discussion group and people are encouraged to share their views on related topics.

Thanks,

-Behnam

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

--
    '     بهنام اسفهبد
    '     Behnam Esfahbod
   '      http://behnam.esfahbod.info
  *  ..   http://zwnj.org/
 *  `  *  http://persian-computing.ir
  * o *   3E7F B4B6 6F4C A8AB 9BB9 7520 5701 CA40 259E 0F8B

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Ok, I learned a lot in this thread. I'm assuming that no one has anything
substantial to add to the thread, so lets just call it a night.

Thanks,
behdad

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Before you go to bed,  I'm still waiting for someone to give me more examples like /khaakdun-i/ where the -i adds something negative....

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

Connie,

I am not a linguistic, but /aab-ak-i/ (آبکی), and /yavash-ak-i/
(یواشکی) sound similar to me. I am not sure whether they convey
something negative, though.

Bests,
Soheil

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Behnam]

Yes I wanted to mention that. I thought my Persian may be too dusty to be trusted! Khaakdun-i doesn't sound negative to me at all. The word itself doesn't allude to something of high value (culturally) but structurally, it's not negative at all.
-b

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Faramarz]

On Jun 14, 4:34 pm, Connie Bobroff <conn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Before you go to bed,  I'm still waiting for someone to give me more
> examples like /khaakdun-i/ where the -i adds something negative....
>

Hi,

-i is added to end of lot of names for endearment or diminution, like
Hasan-i, Mahmoud-i, etc. This is very common.

Said that, I don't think Afghan-i was created in the same manner. In
Persian almost all nationality words have an -i at the end to refer to
their country and not their ethnicity. For example if you say someone
is "tork" it's generally perceived as referring to ethnicity or
language, rather than a citizen of Turkey, which is sometimes called
"torkiye-yi" (difficult to pronounce) or "tork-e torkiye". In this
manner I think afghani was just adopted as short for afghanestani.

And said that, the disrespect is not in the word "afghani", but how
it's used, which has somehow tainted the word.

Faramarz

[saber soleymani]

Dear Vafa,

Of course there are Arabic words in Shahnameh, even in the link you
posted:
http://www.recent.ir/search.aspx?p=1&n=10&bf=0&d=shahnameh.recent.ir&q=%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7
I'm not a linguist, but I think "Hesaar" in 7th result of this page is
Arabic.
You can search "gham","hava","bar",... on shahnameh.recent.ir and see
the results.
If you believe these words are Arabic and you believe in poems on
recent.it, then the article is proven.

And do you really believe وفاء is an Arabic word but وفا is another
word in Persian?

[saber soleymani]

I think they're slightly negative.
Here are some examples:
وقتی داشتم لباس‌هایم را عوض می‌کردم، دیدم که او یواشکی من را نگاه
می‌کرد
فرزانه یواشکی دستش را در دماغش کرده بود، اما من او را دیدم!

این آش خیلی آبکی شده، کاش میگذاشتم بیشتر می‌پخت
همه کارهایت آبکی هست، کمی جدی‌تر کار کن

On Jun 15, 3:56 am, Soheil Hassas Yeganeh <soh...@cs.toronto.edu>
wrote:

> Connie,
>
> I am not a linguistic, but /aab-ak-i/ (آبکی), and /yavash-ak-i/
> (یواشکی) sound similar to me. I am not sure whether they convey
> something negative, though.
>
> Bests,
> Soheil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Connie Bobroff <conn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Before you go to bed,  I'm still waiting for someone to give me more
> > examples like /khaakdun-i/ where the -i adds something negative....
>
> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Behdad Esfahbod <beh...@behdad.org> wrote:
>
> >> Ok, I learned a lot in this thread.  I'm assuming that no one has anything
> >> substantial to add to the thread, so lets just call it a night.
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> behdad
>
> >> On 06/14/11 00:09, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:
> >> > Vafa,
>
> >> > P-C is a discussion group and people are encouraged to share their views
> >> > on
> >> > related topics.
>
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > -Behnam
>

> >> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Vafa Khalighi <vafa...@gmail.com
> >> > <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> >     There is nothing that I can do for your feelings, the article
> >> > already is
> >> >     offensive. And this is not facebook that you are trying to give +1
> >> > or -1.
>
> >> >     On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Roozbeh Pournader

> >> > <rooz...@gmail.com

> >> >     <mailto:rooz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> >         On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Vafa Khalighi

> >> > <vafa...@gmail.com

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

I think it depends on the context as "aab-ak-i" in the following
sentence is not negative:
دکتر گقت برای رفع سرماخوردگی باید غذای آبکی بخورم

-- Soheil

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Soheil and Saber, great sentences! I'm learning a lot here.

Faramarz, I think you'll like this one. It is both diminutive and endearing but at the same time, Aarmin has clearly been a naughty child and the -i is also negative:

آرمینی بیا اینجا ببینم
I agree these are all highly context-dependent.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Saber S. <post...@gmail.com> wrote:

Soheil,

That's why I'm calling it slightly negative. I believe its intensity depends on the context, but it is still negative.

If a doctor prevents you to eat "abak-i" food, it means you can't have "normal" food and should eat something you don't like!

I think even if we like a diluted soup, we don't say: سوپ آبکی خوشمزه‌ای بود

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Saber S.]

Soheil,

That's why I'm calling it slightly negative. I believe its intensity depends on the context, but it is still negative.

If a doctor prevents you to eat "abak-i" food, it means you can't have "normal" food and should eat something you don't like!

I think even if we like a diluted soup, we don't say: سوپ آبکی خوشمزه‌ای بود

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

Saber, I think aab-ak-i in my sentence means "eat something liquid
such as soup, and juice".

Connie, IMO, the -i after armin-i does not convey something negative;
the context is negative. I always call children in our family like
that, and I believe it is showing affection. For instance:
آرمینی بیا یه بوس به عمو بده.

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Soheil, Someone had given me the Aarmin-i example to show the -i term of endearment being deliberately used as a way to let Aarmin know the parent was very upset. Maybe this usage is not very common.

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

Well, I think it is not only context sensitive, but also subjective.
But in parent-child relationships, we commonly use -i, such as baba-i
and maman-i, most of which are positive.

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Soheil,

I agree completely. I'm just going to copy these example sentences and put them on the website so they are in one place. Then we can see how to organize them and tag them. Please let me know if you come up with any more examples or insights. This is another example of a situation where Google can't help find examples. A human is necessary.

By the way, I emailed Professor Dabashi to ask what he meant by "Afghani" but as expected, he did not answer. My theory is that he meant that when native speakers of Persian are speaking English, they often say /afghaan-i/ which is definitely offensive to some Afghans. The correct word in English is Afghan. There is no -i.

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

Connie,

Having these examples on the website would be quite interesting. I
will try to find more examples and send them to you.

Cheers,
Soheil

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Behdad Esfahbod]

I think you are reading too much into a simple suffix. I think -i is used for
endearment in many cases, just like -ak is. "Afghani" however is a completely
different -i. It's "-i e nesbat". Like Tehrani, Irani, Paakestaani, ...
Now, what's wrong with "Afghani" is that supposedly it's short for
"Afghanistani", but then "Afghan" is an adjective meaning "Afghanistani"
already (in Persian and in English). So I think it's the ignorance that the
Afghan people find offensive.

My 0.02CAD,
behdad

> <post...@gmail.com <mailto:post...@gmail.com>>

> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > I think they're slightly negative.
> >> >>> > Here are some examples:
> >> >>> > وقتی داشتم لباس‌هایم را عوض می‌کردم، دیدم که او یواشکی من را نگاه
> >> >>> > می‌کرد
> >> >>> > فرزانه یواشکی دستش را در دماغش کرده بود، اما من او را دیدم!
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > این آش خیلی آبکی شده، کاش میگذاشتم بیشتر می‌پخت
> >> >>> > همه کارهایت آبکی هست، کمی جدی‌تر کار کن
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On Jun 15, 3:56 am, Soheil Hassas Yeganeh <soh...@cs.toronto.edu

> <mailto:soh...@cs.toronto.edu>>

> >> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> >> Connie,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> I am not a linguistic, but /aab-ak-i/ (آبکی), and /yavash-ak-i/
> >> >>> >> (یواشکی) sound similar to me. I am not sure whether they convey
> >> >>> >> something negative, though.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Bests,
> >> >>> >> Soheil
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Connie Bobroff

> >> >>> >> <conn...@gmail.com <mailto:conn...@gmail.com>>

> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >> > Before you go to bed, I'm still waiting for someone to give me
> >> >>> >> > more
> >> >>> >> > examples like /khaakdun-i/ where the -i adds something
> >> >>> >> > negative....
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Behdad Esfahbod

> >> >>> >> > <beh...@behdad.org <mailto:beh...@behdad.org>>

> >> >>> >> > wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> Ok, I learned a lot in this thread. I'm assuming that no one
> >> >>> >> >> has
> >> >>> >> >> anything
> >> >>> >> >> substantial to add to the thread, so lets just call it a night.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >>> >> >> behdad
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> On 06/14/11 00:09, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> > Vafa,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > P-C is a discussion group and people are encouraged to share
> >> >>> >> >> > their views
> >> >>> >> >> > on
> >> >>> >> >> > related topics.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > Thanks,
> >> >>> >> >> > -Behnam
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Vafa Khalighi
> >> >>> >> >> > <vafa...@gmail.com <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com>

> >> >>> >> >> > <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > There is nothing that I can do for your feelings, the
> >> >>> >> >> > article
> >> >>> >> >> > already is
> >> >>> >> >> > offensive. And this is not facebook that you are trying to
> >> >>> >> >> > give +1
> >> >>> >> >> > or -1.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Roozbeh Pournader
> >> >>> >> >> > <rooz...@gmail.com <mailto:rooz...@gmail.com>

> >> >>> >> >> > <mailto:rooz...@gmail.com <mailto:rooz...@gmail.com>>>

> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Vafa Khalighi
> >> >>> >> >> > <vafa...@gmail.com <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com>

> >> >>> >> >> > <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com

> <mailto:vafa...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> > >
> >> >>> >> >> > >> Note that there are supposedly 706 Arabic words in
> >> >>> >> >> > the
> >> >>> >> >> > Shahnameh.
> >> >>> >> >> > >>http://iranica.com/articles/sah-nama-v-arabic-words
> >> >>> >> >> > >>
> >> >>> >> >> > >
> >> >>> >> >> > > Is it really proven? what I see from that article
> >> >>> >> >> > are a
> >> >>> >> >> > bunch
> >> >>> >> >> > of
> >> >>> >> >> > nonsense.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > -1.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > I can even say I'm offended...
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > Roozbeh
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > --
> >> >>> >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > --
> >> >>> >> >> > ' بهنام اسفهبد
> >> >>> >> >> > ' Behnam Esfahbod
> >> >>> >> >> > ' http://behnam.esfahbod.info

> <http://behnam.esfahbod.info/>

> >> >>> >> >> > * .. http://zwnj.org/
> >> >>> >> >> > * ` * http://persian-computing.ir

> <http://persian-computing.ir/>

> >> >>> >> >> > * o * 3E7F B4B6 6F4C A8AB 9BB9 7520 5701 CA40 259E 0F8B
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> > --
> >> >>> >> >> >http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> --
> >> >>> >> >>http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> > --
> >> >>> >> >http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > --
> >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
> >
> > --
> > http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
>
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing
>
>

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Behdad, Thanks for your 0.02CAD. I'm just happy to have the opportunity to bounce some ideas off you guys.

I'm still wondering about "khaakdun-i" and "teflak-i", in case you come up with any ideas.....Somehow Dabashi's statement made me remember this kind of suffix -i.

[Connie Bobroff]

Now people are telling me the diminutive suffix -i as in  /aarmin-i/ (both positive or negative) is now obsolete in Iran. That is, it sounds old-fashioned and if some young person calls their kid "Aarmini", everyone will laugh. It sounds very strange to add -i to a name.

Is this true? Anyone care to comment?

[Soheil Hassas Yeganeh]

I believe it is still used frequently specially for infants. In
addition to adding "-i" to the given name, quite a few people add "-i"
to baba or maman, ie., mamani and babayi.

In a new novel by Farhad Jafari, "Kafe Piano", girl calls his father
"baba-i", and sometimes tries to pronounce it as "ببعی" (sheep) to
tease his father.

> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Milad khajavi]

I am surprised this discussion about the -i seems to have ended without much participation. It seems very interesting. With the hope that this will encourage people like me who are better at computing than matters of Persian and English, I am going to offer a few examples. Please suggest corrections where needed.

 

افغانی / Afghaan-i
Concerning usage of the specific word "afghaan-i" in Iran by Persian speakers, I do think that the -i may, in certain contexts, by certain people, be used in a pejorative manner. Although I don't use this myself, I am passively aware that this usage exists.
For example, take these two sentences which are both used:
1. 

یکی از افغان‌های محلهٔ ما، همکار من است. /افغانستان -> افغان
2.
یکی از افغانی‌های محلهٔ ما، همکار من است. /افغان -> افغانی

Now compare them with these:
3.
یکی از ایران‌های محلهٔ ما، همکار من است.*
4.

یکی از ایرانی‌های محلهٔ ما، همکار من است. /ایران ->ایرانی

*We would never say #3.
So the question is, what is the difference between #1 and #2? In my opinion, #2 is possibly sometimes used in a pejorative manner.

 

آبکی / aab-ak-i
Now about "aab-ak-i". After thinking about it, I think it's mainly used in a negative sense. When associated with sick people, even if it heals them, we can say that in a way, it's negative but contributes to a positive outcome. Here's a couple more examples:

 دکتر به من توصیه کرد سوپ بخورم.

واییی چه سوپ آبکی‌ای بود، خوشم نیومد.

 

راستکی  / raast-ak-i
There is also "raast-ak-i" which I think is mainly used with children or in very informal contexts among friends. This is not really negative but probably would not be used in a formal, serious situation.

(آرمین بگو ببینم، این تفنگ‌ات راستکیه؟ (واقعیه؟

اوه دیر شد، من باید برم، دیگه راست-راستکی خدانگهدار.

 

بابایی، مامانی / baabaa-i, maamaan-i

As for -i in "baabaa-i" and "maamaan-i", that is definitely not negative normally. It is only a term of endearment. Here's an example of "baabaa-i" to add to the list.

بابایی! منو می‌بری شهربازی؟

I am not sure about -i with names (hossein-i) though.

 

خاکدونی، طفلکی / khaak-dun-i, tefl-ak-i

As for "khaakdun-i", I have never heard this word at all.
However, "tefl-ak-i" is commonly used to express both sympathy and pity. It is used by people of higher status to describe those of lower status. So it can be said to be both positive and negative at the same time, a little like "aab-ak-i" when used for sick people's soup.

آخِی! ببین طفلکی چقدر گریه کرده؛ چند ساعتیه مامان‌اش رو گم کرده.

I hope these are helpful. Maybe someone else can add more or translate.

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

--
Milad Khajavi
http://lincafe.wordpress.com
I tried to change the world, but I couldn’t find the source code.

Using Gmail? Please read this important notice: http://j.mp/jmbP5l

[Behnam Rassi]

Although I don’t see anything wrong with the word ‘Afghani’ but I was introduced to an interesting supplement (in Persian) to this discussion.

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13910503000409

http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/محمدکاظم_کاظمی

بهـــنام
beh...@me.com

--
http://groups.google.com/group/persian-computing

[Connie Bobroff]

Thanks for posting this, Behnam. Very helpful article with a few additional points!

[AmirBehzad Eslami]

Hi,

A long time ago, I clipped a text from "Asre Ertebat" newspaper.
It's a short text about "Persian vs Farsi".

This is the image of that newspaper-clip:
http://drm.net84.net/images/b5e6cc50cefa.jpg

Hope this help,
-Behzad