Representing Accent; Transcribing diphthongs
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Knigaman
Dec 10, 2009, 3:46:52 PM12/10/09
to Persian Computing
First question: Right now I am storing 2 native script forms of each
Persian word in my database, normal and full harakat. But I also want
to be able to show where the accent is. How do Persian or other
dictionaries indicate the accent on a word?
I have learned two rules of accent so far: the negative marker on a
verb is always accented, as well as the present tense prefix.
In a language such as Russian, it is critical to understand where the
accent is, because native speakers will often not understand you if
you get it wrong. Plus, there are many vowel reductions that depend on
positional relationship to the accented syllable. How critical is the
word accent in Persian? Are there secondary accents in words?
My last question related to transcribing the 2 Persian diphthongs.
Since "a", "i" and "u" are long (omitting the discussion as to whether
or not they are actually long), and are usually transcribed with
circumflex -- why could not the two diphthongs be transcribed with "e"
and "o" with circumflex?
Loren sZendre
Persian word in my database, normal and full harakat. But I also want
to be able to show where the accent is. How do Persian or other
dictionaries indicate the accent on a word?
I have learned two rules of accent so far: the negative marker on a
verb is always accented, as well as the present tense prefix.
In a language such as Russian, it is critical to understand where the
accent is, because native speakers will often not understand you if
you get it wrong. Plus, there are many vowel reductions that depend on
positional relationship to the accented syllable. How critical is the
word accent in Persian? Are there secondary accents in words?
My last question related to transcribing the 2 Persian diphthongs.
Since "a", "i" and "u" are long (omitting the discussion as to whether
or not they are actually long), and are usually transcribed with
circumflex -- why could not the two diphthongs be transcribed with "e"
and "o" with circumflex?
Loren sZendre
Knigaman
Dec 11, 2009, 12:58:04 PM12/11/09
to Persian Computing
OK, I'm ready to start capturing my word list -- except for one issue
-- how do you represent word accent in the Persian script? Anyone
know?
Loren sZendre
-- how do you represent word accent in the Persian script? Anyone
know?
Loren sZendre
Connie Bobroff
Dec 11, 2009, 1:09:59 PM12/11/09
to Knigaman, Persian Computing
Suprasegmental features such as word accent, pitch, syllable length, etc are generally not represented in Persian script. Since you are coming from a Russian context, it is natural to be concerned with word accent but that doesn't carry over to Persian nicely.
-Connie
Knigaman
Dec 11, 2009, 1:23:37 PM12/11/09
to Persian Computing
The textbook I am using is so old and brittle, that the first 46 pages
snapped off and are missing, and I can't find them :(
But in the parts that remain -- the book states in several places that
word accent is extremely important. If that is the case -- I wonder
that there isn't some tradition or convention to be able to mark it
(in Persian, or other languages that use a variation of the Arabic
script).
In Russian, as critical as word accent is, Unicode does not contain an
"и" with an acute accent, although you will see it in dictionaries
printed in Russian, and of course in lots of materials printed for
students learning Russian.
How do Persian linguists mark word accent, when writing in Persian for
a Persian-speaking audience?
Loren sZendre
snapped off and are missing, and I can't find them :(
But in the parts that remain -- the book states in several places that
word accent is extremely important. If that is the case -- I wonder
that there isn't some tradition or convention to be able to mark it
(in Persian, or other languages that use a variation of the Arabic
script).
In Russian, as critical as word accent is, Unicode does not contain an
"и" with an acute accent, although you will see it in dictionaries
printed in Russian, and of course in lots of materials printed for
students learning Russian.
How do Persian linguists mark word accent, when writing in Persian for
a Persian-speaking audience?
Loren sZendre
John Hudson
Dec 11, 2009, 1:41:17 PM12/11/09
to Persian Computing
Knigaman wrote:
> In Russian, as critical as word accent is, Unicode does not contain an
> "и" with an acute accent, although you will see it in dictionaries
> printed in Russian, and of course in lots of materials printed for
> students learning Russian.
Unicode only includes precomposed combinations of letters + mark(s) for
> In Russian, as critical as word accent is, Unicode does not contain an
> "и" with an acute accent, although you will see it in dictionaries
> printed in Russian, and of course in lots of materials printed for
> students learning Russian.
backwards compatibility with pre-existing standards. The preferred model
for Unicode text encoding is to use combining mark characters, e.g.
0438 + 0301 = и́
Of course, one needs both a text engine and a font that knows how to
handle this in order to display it correctly. Results will vary in email.
JH
--
Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com
Gulf Islands, BC ti...@tiro.com
Car le chant bien plus que l'association d'un texte
et d'une mélodie, est d'abord un acte dans lequel
le son devient l'expression d'une mémoire, mémoire
d'un corps immergé dans le mouvement d'un geste
ancestral. - Marcel Pérès
Connie Bobroff
Dec 11, 2009, 2:10:00 PM12/11/09
to Knigaman, Persian Computing
-- the book states in several places that
word accent is extremely important.
Yes, indeed, it is crucial and not just word accent but other features as well. Add to that, the notion that words are rarely spoken in isolation as in dictionary word entries. Words undergo great phonological changes in the interaction with other words in sentences. Although you must start somewhere, your marking word accent is going to have its limitations. (I'm not even going to get into considerations for the spoken/colloquial to written/formal Persian spectrum.)
If that is the case -- I wonder
that there isn't some tradition or convention to be able to mark it
(in Persian, or other languages that use a variation of the Arabic
script).
I believe Persian linguists generally use Latin characters and standard linguistic notation for such discussions.
As for Persian-language teaching materials, I would be much obliged if you could pop over to the White House or US Congress at your earliest convenience and inquire about what happened to the BILLIONS of dollars that were supposed to go to Persian language after September 11 but instead disappeared into the great vortex.
-Connie
Knigaman
Dec 11, 2009, 4:41:33 PM12/11/09
to Persian Computing
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
> Yes, indeed, it is crucial and not just word accent but other features as
> well. Add to that, the notion that words are rarely spoken in isolation as
> in dictionary word entries. Words undergo great phonological changes in the
> interaction with other words in sentences. Although you must start
> somewhere, your marking word accent is going to have its limitations.
It sounds like I'm going to struggle to find sources where accent is
marked!
> I believe Persian linguists generally use Latin characters and standard
> linguistic notation for such discussions.
Useful to know
> As for Persian-language teaching materials, I would be much obliged if you
> could pop over to the White House or US Congress at your earliest
> convenience and inquire about what happened to the BILLIONS of dollars that
> were supposed to go to Persian language after September 11 but
> instead disappeared into the great vortex.
The only senator I knew personally was voted out of office in the
Obama deluge, so I have no one left to ask :(
Loren
> Yes, indeed, it is crucial and not just word accent but other features as
> well. Add to that, the notion that words are rarely spoken in isolation as
> in dictionary word entries. Words undergo great phonological changes in the
> interaction with other words in sentences. Although you must start
> somewhere, your marking word accent is going to have its limitations.
marked!
> I believe Persian linguists generally use Latin characters and standard
> linguistic notation for such discussions.
> As for Persian-language teaching materials, I would be much obliged if you
> could pop over to the White House or US Congress at your earliest
> convenience and inquire about what happened to the BILLIONS of dollars that
> were supposed to go to Persian language after September 11 but
> instead disappeared into the great vortex.
Obama deluge, so I have no one left to ask :(
Loren
Knigaman
Dec 11, 2009, 7:12:16 PM12/11/09
to Persian Computing
As a followup -- how do Persian dictionaries (for Persian speakers)
show pronunciation? I can't imagine they would use IPA -- even English
dictionaries generally use some dumbed down pronunciation guide, for
ease of use.
And secondarily, do such dictionaries generally show the harakat
symbols?
Loren sZendre
show pronunciation? I can't imagine they would use IPA -- even English
dictionaries generally use some dumbed down pronunciation guide, for
ease of use.
And secondarily, do such dictionaries generally show the harakat
symbols?
Loren sZendre
Connie Bobroff
Dec 11, 2009, 8:02:29 PM12/11/09
to Knigaman, Persian Computing
In the mid-1970s the method of vowelling the diphthongs was unofficially changed. So, if you look in the pre-1970s dictionaries, you will find:
نَوْروز
مَیْدان
or sometimes without the sokun
نَوروز
مَیدان
مَیْدان
or sometimes without the sokun
نَوروز
مَیدان
however, post 1970s:
نُروز
مِیدان
مِیدان
(This is an issue separate from pronunciation guides. I'm only discussing vowelling systems which don't have much to do with showing pronunciation.)
Now if you look at the updated digitized and online versions of the old Dehkhoda Dictionary, you can see they have recently added the post 1970s version of diphthong vowelling next to the way Mr. Dehkhoda had it in the print version.
Recent dictionaries seem to avoid harakaat and diacritics in favor of various Latin transcription systems.
If you are writing a scientific paper, you might like to use /nawruz/ while if you are chatting away on the internet in "Finglish", best to use /noruz/ or /norouz/ or /norooz/ so as to fit in.
-Connie
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