Questions regarding the Duke of Edinburgh's titles

[bx...@yahoo.com]

With all due respect to the Duke's passing and subsequent mourning period, what will happen to his titles?

If I remember correctly, the Dukedom of Edinburgh will be recreated for Prince Edward at some point.

Will the Earldom and Barony revert to the crown?

Thanks.

Brooke

[John Horton]

All pass to his eldest son as per the Letters Patent creating them. 

The suggestion of the dukedom passing to the Earl of Wessex only becomes possible when the dukedom is extinct – in this case merger with the Crown. Any other option would require an Act of Parliament to defeat the Letters Patent. 

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From: 'bx...@yahoo.com' via Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 09 April 2021 2:14 PM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Questions regarding the Duke of Edinburgh's titles

 

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[Olivier]

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants

[uwe...@web.de]

What would happen if HRH The Prince of Wales was to disclaim the newly inherited titles within the next year (as by the Peerage Act 1963) and afterwards succeeds to the throne? Could/would the merger of the titles into the crown occur nevertheless?

If so, that could be a path to grant a second dukedom of Edinburgh a bit sooner in order to maintain the link of the title and HRH The Earl of Wessex as its foreseen holder as trustee of the Duke of Edinburgh’s Awards.

[Henry W]

I think that would delay granting a new title.  As the Dukedom of Edinburgh would still exist, just not held by any person, current working convention would mean that it could not be re-created.

It would then wait for the death of Charles and the Dukedom being revived with William succeeding to it and the Crown. The Dukedom would then instantly merge with the Crown and be available for re-creation.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

There is some question whether Edinburgh will even be in the same country soon, so I have a feeling that its re-creation is doubtful.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Prince Charles now succeeds to his father's titles.

I know he would never be referred to as such, but is he technically speaking, the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh?

Thanks

Brooke

[John Horton]

Undoubtedly!

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From: 'bx...@yahoo.com' via Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: 11 April 2021 12:20 AM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Questions regarding the Duke of Edinburgh's titles

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/peerage-news/ad1e8546-824c-462f-ab7a-2f3630c5f9efn%40googlegroups.com.

[malcolm davies]

As to disclaimer,any disclaimer is personal and does not affect the title which continues.

With the reform of the House of Lords,there is little point in disclaiming,since peers can sit in the House of Commons(I think the current Marquess of Lothian was the first to do so).

[Jonathan]

On Sunday, 11 April 2021 at 22:38:25 UTC+1 malcolm davies wrote:

As to disclaimer,any disclaimer is personal and does not affect the title which continues.

With the reform of the House of Lords,there is little point in disclaiming,since peers can sit in the House of Commons(I think the current Marquess of Lothian was the first to do so).

I think the first hereditary peer to sit as an MP without disclaiming his title was Viscount Thurso, who was elected to the Commons at the 2001 general election, having been excluded from the House of Lords by the 1999 Act.

The first sitting MP to succeed to a hereditary peerage and retain his seat was Viscount Hailsham, later in 2001.

As a footnote, all three aforementioned peers now sit in the House of Lords: Lord Thurso as an elected hereditary, and the others as life peers.

[uwe...@web.de]

My question asked exactly for an explanation or clarification of this point: the only person who could disclaim a peerage and/or make it merge into the crown is the heir to the throne.

The possibility to disclaim a peerage title should definitively be deleted from the rules. It’s obsolete now (the heir to the Silkin title thought otherwise). Still, if the Prince of Wales did it, he would not be permitted to be elected to the House of Commons as being the future king. Additionally, if you already have had a peerage title and would have disclaimed an additionally inherited second title, it wouldn‘t even have made a change in the pre-1999 rules, would it?

That brings me to another question: Spontaneously I can only think of two current instances of peers who have inherited another peerage title. That would be Baron Brabourne, who became Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and now the Duke of Cornwall (and Edinburgh). Are there any other cases among living peers?

[Jonathan]

Do we think the recreation of the dukedom once it has merged with the Crown for the Earl of Wessex is still likely? The earl now has a Scottish title in the Earldom of Forfar (2019). Would it really make sense to create him Duke of Edinburgh, given the previously stated wishes for a smaller royal family in future, and given that the title would be inherited by descendents who may not serve as working royals? I took the creation of the Scottish earldom in 2019 as a sign there may have been a change of plan.

If Prince Edward is ultimately made Duke of Edinburgh, to answer Brooke's original question, I think it unlikely the associated earldom and barony would be recreated, as Prince Edward would already have English and Welsh subsidiary titles (I guess Severn can count as Welsh!)

[Jonathan]

On Sunday, 11 April 2021 at 23:14:41 UTC+1 uwe...@web.de wrote:

My question asked exactly for an explanation or clarification of this point: the only person who could disclaim a peerage and/or make it merge into the crown is the heir to the throne.

The possibility to disclaim a peerage title should definitively be deleted from the rules. It’s obsolete now (the heir to the Silkin title thought otherwise). Still, if the Prince of Wales did it, he would not be permitted to be elected to the House of Commons as being the future king. Additionally, if you already have had a peerage title and would have disclaimed an additionally inherited second title, it wouldn‘t even have made a change in the pre-1999 rules, would it?

I think what you are saying is that there are plenty of ways to disclaim titles that do not make sense, both when the Act was first passed in 1963, and post-1999. There is little point in the Prince of Wales disclaiming the dukedom, and it no longer has any effect on Commons membership. However, some would disagree that there is no longer any purpose in keeping the 1963 Act on the statute books, as some people may not wish to be encumbered by a peerage (I know, probably hard to understand for most of the posters in this group!) and so may choose to disclaim it for life.

 

That brings me to another question: Spontaneously I can only think of two current instances of peers who have inherited another peerage title. That would be Baron Brabourne, who became Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and now the Duke of Cornwall (and Edinburgh). Are there any other cases among living peers?

There have certainly been plenty in history. As for peers currently living, the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres was created a life peer in 1975, before succeeding to the earldoms later that year.

And it's sort of cheating, but the Marquess of Salisbury was already Baron Cecil by Writ of Acceleration when he succeeded to the remainder of his father's titles.

I'll have to put my thinking cap on to see if there are any others.

[Jonathan]

And it's sort of cheating, but the Marquess of Salisbury was already Baron Cecil by Writ of Acceleration when he succeeded to the remainder of his father's titles.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I just realised the Marquess of Salisbury was also created a life peer following the 1999 Act, so at the time he inherited the marquessate, he was already both a life peer and a peer by Writ of Acceleration.

[Henry W]

I did my best to answer uwe's question - if the Edinburgh dukedom were disclaimed now, my view is it would only merge with the Crown after Charles' death. Of course just my view, happy to discuss.

I like the anachronism of disclaiming being on the books. Whilst inevitably a peer now simply can choose to not use the title and not go through the peerage roll procedures, it is a legitimate position for a person to take a stand against the hereditary principle, and I imagine that motivated Christopher Silkin.  I'm sure many of us would take up the title if one fell upon us. Of course the what if you posed about the current dukedom is entirely an academic question. There is no prospect he or anybody in his position would disclaim.

Other titles that merged up - I cannot think of any amongst the current peers other than Brabourne/Mountbatten of Burma, and Cornwall/Edinburgh that you state, but I may have overlooked somebody.  Of course there were several prominent ones in recent years, but now deceased: Southesk/Fife, and of course the 17th Duke of NORFOLK who had previously succeeded the Beaumont & Howard of Glossop baronies separately.   There are a handful of others that might occur in the coming years: Listowel/Blakenham (highly likely),  Westminster/Wilton (possible), Carnarvon/Pembroke & Montgomery (now very unlikely, but a decade ago was a real possibility), Mornington/Cowley (highly unlikely), and probably a few more I've overlooked.

On Sunday, 11 April 2021 at 23:14:41 UTC+1 uwe...@web.de wrote:

[Jonathan]

That brings me to another question: Spontaneously I can only think of two current instances of peers who have inherited another peerage title. That would be Baron Brabourne, who became Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and now the Duke of Cornwall (and Edinburgh). Are there any other cases among living peers?

OK, a quick search of this group's archive, and I discovered that the Marquess of Downshire inherited the Barony of Sandys in 2013. There must be others!

https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news/c/ap-beXfixZ4/m/BhL9NSVZ2G0J

[uwe...@web.de]

Thank you Henry W!

[Henry W]

Jonathan,

I've been thinking about this question since it was suggested by Paul Theroff.

There are many possible motivations behind the creation of Earl FORFAR:

- Genuine gift from The Queen to her son

- Recognition of him being a "reliable" pair of hands in recent years. His is the only first marriage of her children to last 20 years+

- Desire to give him a Scottish title to match other Royals where some convention about use of a Scottish title in Scotland seemed to be forming. However, if Edinburgh was still the plan, he might only use the Forfar title for a short time.

- A backstop against Scottish independence related to the above. Whilst the Independence movement seemed to accept keeping the monarch as Head of State, at least in the immediate term, this does not mean they might not change certain things, such as giving permission for titles linked to Scottish titles. It seems to be settled that the UK government seeks permission from foreign/commonwealth powers if using their places in title TDs.  This is the only possibility I can see that prevents the Dukedom of Edinburgh being re-created.

Remember in all of this that there is the Duke of Edinburgh Awards Scheme, probably Prince Philip's greatest wider legacy. The Earl of Wessex is a trustee and the clear plan seems to be to make him Patron in due course. It would all be very tidy if he is the Duke of Edinburgh for these purposes!

[Henry W]

Well done!  I was thinking of a Marquessate recently gaining another title, but had checked DONEGALL (which had recently been inherited by the TEMPLEMORE barons by the last holder)

[malcolm davies]

Jonathan,

                 Yes correct-Viscount Thurso was the first.However the Marquess of Lothian,I think, was the first hereditary peer to succeed to his title whilst still an MP and not be disqualified from sitting in the House of Commons.

[Henry W]

3rd Viscount Hailsham succeeded to his peerage in 2001, whilst serving in the Commons, on the death of his father who had in fact disclaimed (for expeditious political reasons in the 1960s to run for Conservative leader!). The 13th Marquess of Lothian succeeded his father in 2004, again whilst still in the Commons.

[colinp]

Baron Ebury (succ 1957) succeeded to the Earldom of Wilton in 1999

[John Horton]

Creating the Earl of Wessex Duke of Edinburgh will not increase the size of the Royal Family, nor will the dukedom’s descent to non-royal generations. That the dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent will pass to those who are not Royal Highnesses will have no effect on the size of the Royal Family. 

There is also an odd problem with a Royal Highness who is a peer below the rank of duke. In general, such peers are habitually referred to as “Lord X” once their exact rank has been stated once. I notice the Earl of Wessex, however, is always referred to as such and never ever as Lord Wessex – just like a duke in fact.

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From: peerag...@googlegroups.com <peerag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jonathan <jra...@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 April 2021 11:19 PM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Questions regarding the Duke of Edinburgh's titles

Do we think the recreation of the dukedom once it has merged with the Crown for the Earl of Wessex is still likely? The earl now has a Scottish title in the Earldom of Forfar (2019). Would it really make sense to create him Duke of Edinburgh, given the previously stated wishes for a smaller royal family in future, and given that the title would be inherited by descendents who may not serve as working royals? I took the creation of the Scottish earldom in 2019 as a sign there may have been a change of plan.

If Prince Edward is ultimately made Duke of Edinburgh, to answer Brooke's original question, I think it unlikely the associated earldom and barony would be recreated, as Prince Edward would already have English and Welsh subsidiary titles (I guess Severn can count as Welsh!)

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[P A W]

Could people not forget that the Prince of Wales is first and foremost the Duke of Cornwall AND Rothesay before any other titles. His succession to Edinburgh is merely a johnny come lately title.
Regarding discalmation of heriditary peerages one must not forget Alexander Douglas Home,  14th Earl of Home. He also became Baron Douglas in the peerage of the United Kingdom after his House of Commons career ended. If I remember correctly L G Pine wrote extensively about it in one of his books.

[Mark Jennings]

Ignoring the offensive comment about the Edinburgh title - like other persons who succeeded to a hereditary peerage and then disclaimed it in order to further a career in the House of Commons, Sir Alec Douglas-Home was afterwards granted a *life* peerage (as Baron Home of the Hirsel).  Lord Hailsham and Lord Selkirk were two others.

[Henry W]

I always feel for Lord Selkirk of Douglas a bit - unlike Douglas-Home & Hailsham, he disclaimed for reasons entirely unrelated to his own prospects. He was a conservative MP in 1994 when the government's working majority was precarious at best and he felt he had to disclaim to continue to support the government in the Commons.  He lost out on being an Earl!

Also 3rd Viscount Camrose disclaimed, having already spent 27 years in the Lords as a life peer, Baron Hartwell.  Not sure exactly what his motivation was.