Lord Great Chamberlain heirs

[Henry W]

We are probably all aware that the LGC title is hereditary in gross, and at present there are 14 Joint Lord Great Chamberlains, with shares varying from 1/100 to 1/2. I thought it would be useful to track the heirs to each of these people

David Cholmondeley, 7th Marquess of Cholmondeley (1/2 share) (born 1960); heir apparent: Alexander Cholmondeley, Earl of Rocksavage (born 2009), eldest son

Jane Heathcote-Drummond-Willoughby, 28th Baroness Willoughby de Eresby (1/4 share) (born 1934); co-heirs presumptive:  Sebastian St Maur Miller (b. 1965), her older aunt's grandson, and Sir John Aird, 4th Baronet (b. 1940), her younger aunt's son. This will split into 1/8 shares.

The Hon. Lorraine Wilson (1/80 share) (born 1959) unm. co-heirs presumptive: her three sisters who follow. Their shares will each increase to 1/60 (or 1/40 - see below)

The Hon. Tatiana Dent (1/80 share) (born 1960); heir apparent: Frederick Dent (born 1989), eldest son

The Hon. Ines Garton (1/80 share) (born 1963); heir apparent: Tristan Garton (born 1990), only son

The Hon. Ysabel Wilson (1/80 share) (born 1963) unm. co-heirs presumptive: her three sisters above. Their shares will each increase to 1/60 (or 1/40 once Lorraine and Ysabel are both deceased)

Nicholas Llewellen Palmer (1/20 share) (born ??) unm?? co-heirs presumptive: his two sisters Josephine and Marina Llewellen Palmer (birth year unknown) - Any more information out there? This share would split into 1/40 shares.

Christopher Mansfeldt Karl Findlay (1/100 share) (born 1967) unm?? co-heirs presumptive: his two sisters Caroline and Angela Findlay (born 1962 & 1964). Are these ladies married? This share would split into 1/200 shares.

Michael James Basset (1/100 share) (born 1963). heir presumptive: Elizabeth Jane Basset (born 1998), only ?? daughter

James Gustavus Hamilton-Russell (1/100 share) (born 1938); heir apparent: Mark John Gustavus Hamilton-Russell (born 1969) eldest son, m. with a son Oscar (born 2003)

Jan Witold Kwiatkowski (1/100 share) (born 1945); heir apparent: Adam Witold Kwiatkowski (born 1972), eldest son; unm??

Patrick Chichester, 8th Marquess of Donegall (1/100 share) (born 1952); heir apparent: James Arthur Chichester, Earl of Belfast (born 1990)

Rufus Keppel, 10th Earl of Albemarle (1/20 share) (born 1965); heir apparent: Augustus Sergei Darius Keppel, Viscount Bury (born 2003)

 Harry Russell Legge-Bourke (1/20 share) (born 1972); heir apparent: Lachlan Legge-Bourke (born 2003)

Corrections/more information very welcome, particularly on the Llewellen Palmer and Findlay families

[Henry W]

Sebastian St Maur Miller (born 1965) is unm (??). His heir presumptive is his younger half brother (James) Jeremy Philippi (born 1975), who is m. with 2 sons George & James. Presumably George is the eldest, but dates unknown.

Sir John Aird, 4th Baronet (born 1940) has an heir apparent: James John Aird (born 1978) - unm??

[G. Willis]

Hello Henry,

Caroline Ilse Findlay married, in 1990, Edson Concha del Castillo, and uses the name Caroline Findlay de Concha; they have two children, Huascar Daniel (b. 1985) and Amauta Nico (b. 1997).

Nicholas Llewellen Palmer was stated to be four years old in articles reporting the death of his father in 2002; Josephine C. (initial from electoral roll) was nine, and Marina S. (" ") seven, so approx. birth years 1998, 1993 and 1995 respectively. Can't seem to find birth records in U.K., so possibly born in mother's home country of South Africa?

[Jelena JS]

Who was father of Julian Llewellyn Palmer (d. 2002)?

[richard hill]

According to various sources Sebastian St Maur Miller m.1991 Emma Caroline Harries and has a son and a daughter.

[richard hill]

Brigadier Anthony William Allen Llewellen Palmer was the son of Colonel William Llewellen Palmer and Lady Alexandra Augusta Wynn-Carington.2 He married Hon. Veronica Saumarez, daughter of James St. Vincent Broke Saumarez, 5th Baron de Saumarez and Gunhild Balck, on 12 July 1945.1 He died in 1990.1
He gained the rank of Brigadier in the King's Dragoon Guards.1 He was commander of the Northern Irish Horse, 9th Lancers.1 He was awarded the Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.)2 He was awarded the Military Cross (M.C.)2
Child of Brigadier Anthony William Allen Llewellen Palmer and Hon. Veronica Saumarez

Julian N. Palmer+2 b. c 1964, d. 31 Mar 2002

[Henry W]

Thanks G. Willis and Richard.

Does anybody have a definitive answer as to the person to exercise the office of Lord Great Chamberlain in the next reign?

The Wikipedia article used to have a list, but it got removed as it was uncited, and as you can see from the Talk Page for that article, there has been contradictory information from other sources.

I think it is relatively clear that the next LGC will be one of the very small shares descended from the Marquess of Lincolnshire as it was "their turn" in the reign of George V and collectively they still represent 1/4 share.

Elizabeth II: Marquesses of Cholmondeley

George VI: Earls of Ancaster (as the holders of the Barony of Willoughby de Eresby)

Edward VIII: Marquesses of Cholmondeley

George V: Marquess of Lincolnshire (until his death 1928) and then one of his daughters.

The main question is which daughter was represented from 1928 to 1936?   In this period, wikipedia lists William Legge, Viscount Lewisham as the Deputy. He was the husband of the 3rd daughter. It is asserted on the talk page that he was however representing the eldest daughter Marjorie Wilson, Dowager Baroness Nunburnholme. However, her son the 3rd Baron Nunburnholme was age 24 at the beginning of this period, so could (should?) have served as Deputy to her if one was required. This does make me question whether Viscount Lewisham was serving as Deputy to someone else, maybe his own wife?

[G. Willis]

Jelena-

Julian Nicholas Llewellen Palmer was son of Brigadier Anthony William Allen Llewellen Palmer (1913-1990), of the King's Dragoon Guards, late Northern Irish Horse, 9th Lancers, D.S.O., M.C., by his wife Hon. Veronica, dau. of the 5th Baron Saumarez. The Brigadier's parents were Colonel William Llewellen Palmer (1883-1954), of the 10th Hussars and 4th Batt. Wiltshire Regiment (Territorials), D.L., M.C., of Great Somerford Manor, Chippenham, Wilts., and Lady Alexandra Augusta (Wynn-Carington), dau. of the 1st (and last) Marquess of Lincolnshire. Col. Palmer's parents were Brigadier-General George Llewellen Palmer (1857-1932), of Blendon Cottage, Bexley, Kent, formerly of Lackham, Lacock, Wilts., and Louie Madeleine, dau. of William Goldsmith. Their daughter, Madeleine, married Hon. Felix Charles Hubert Hanbury-Tracy, s. of the 4th Baron Sudeley.

[Jelena JS]

Thanks! 

[colinp]

Does the LGC have to be a peer?

[Henry W]

I don't think that they need to be a member of the House of Lords. Of particular interest is the commentary for the House of Lords Reform Draft Bill 2011 (page 22) which asserts that:

The Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain are the two hereditary offices of state. Both

are presently held by hereditary peers. However, these office holders would not need to sit in the

reformed House of Lords to fulfil their duties as members of the Royal Household.

Presumably that would be the case right now, as the Marquess of Cholmondeley has been on leave of absence since July 2017. I am not sure if he has been needed in the House as I don't think the Queen has visited since the state opening on 21 June 2017. Even if he is needed in the House to carry his wand around, I am not sure that it follows that he needs to be a member.

A slightly different question is, does the LGC need to be a peer, and again probably not, though it might be getting to the same joke status as the Lord Privy Seal (neither a Lord, nor a Privy, nor a Seal) if we have LGCs who are not peers.

[malcolm davies]

[malcolm davies]

Henry,

          Thank you for posting on this topic.

  It is important to remember that the House of Lords only determined the basis on which the Lord Great Chamberlainship was held,not who should exercise that role(which must be exercised by a deputy).There was an agreement between the families(then the Marquess of Cholmondeley as to one half,the Earl of Ancaster as to one quarter and Earl Carrington as to one quarter as to which family would assume the role of deputy in each reign.That agreement was that a deputy would be appointed which would alternate between each reign.The nomination of the deputy has always required the agreement of the Crown.

 The share held by the families of the 21st Baroness Willoughby d"Eresby(previously shared between the Earls of Ancaster and the Earls Carrington) have now splintered into to so many portions that the Crown may not agree to the application of the family agreement anymore.

 You are correct to say that the Lord Great Chamberlain does not need to be a peer(as the deputyship in the hands of Viscount Dartmouth proves) but the Marquess of Cholmondeley was specifically permitted to remain in the House of Lords on the basis that he was Lord Great Chamberlain(as was the Duke of Norfolk as Earl Marshal).

 I think it is quite possible that the Crown may say that the deputy in the next reign should either hold a substantial share of the dignity or be a peer.That would mean the 10th Earl of Albemarle or Harry Legge Bourke who each hold a one twentieth share.If a peer is thought desirable and a life peerage is not going to be conferred,the only other peer amongst the heirs of the 21st Baroness is the 8th Marquess of Donegall, who holds a one onehundredth share.Lorraine Wilson was previously said to be the one entitled to assume the deputyship under the family agreement,but she only holds a one eightieth share.

[malcolm davies]

To my list should be added Nicholas Llewellen Palmer who also has a one twentieth share.

[www.maltagenealogy.com]

will the greater share holder hold the office of Lord Great Chamberlain ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Great_Chamberlain

[Al]

I'm not sure this is so.

The Explanatory notes to a bill are not law. They can be read in interpreting the law passed with them but even had the act been passed they cannot be read so as to change something - ie other than directly explaining a clause (where the clause changes something). The LGC had always been exercised by a peer. The LGC has a retained role in the house so they can do so. I'm very dubious that the office can be exercised by a person other than a peer without some more formal change.

As I see the present succession it will go to those with a tiny share (and over time ever smaller shares). This seems undesirable but baring a new agreement unavoidable.

[William]

How did the shares arise?

[Al]

The office was deemed (18C) to be be held in gross and descends to heirs general with division. ie the eldest son takes 100% share but if only daughters they divide the share up equally. Unlike a barony by writ the office doesn't fall into abeyance but is held successively by those holding shares.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:23:39 AM UTC+1, William wrote:

How did the shares arise?

[Henry W]

A small update from a recent debate in the House of Lords: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2019-03-15/debates/CB8D86E4-E779-4824-9A58-7012BAFFAA1E/HouseOfLords(HereditaryPeers)(AbolitionOfBy-Elections)Bill(HL)

At Column 1213, Lord Northbrook states: "At the end of last year, I was pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, elected as one of the 90 hereditary Peers through a by-election. However, when Her Majesty dies, the noble Lord will become the Lord Great Chamberlain, as the position rotates between different peerage families on the death of the sovereign."

I believe I have read similar claims before, but without evidence.  Our research based on the hereditary in gross principle suggests that Lord Carrington is not one of the Joint LGCs.  I will write to Lord Northbrook in due course to see if he can clear this up. Might it be the case that he will in fact serve as Deputy LGC, representing the shares of the desecendants of his G-G Grandmother Lady Carrington (wife of the 2nd Baron Carrington)?  This seems odd given that there are two hereditary peers with Peerage of England / Great Britain peerages from amongst the joint LGCs available, but maybe they are not interested, and that as a member of the extended family Lord Carrington is an appropriate choice.

[malcolm davies]

Henry,

          We will look forward to Lord Northbrook's reply.

[Al]

I may be misunderstanding you point:

The title of LGC is not exercised from among the pool of joint holders but from the line of those holding the LGC in that reign. It can only be exercised by held by the heir of line but they can nominate a Deputy (who to take their seat in the HoL needs to be a peer) the deputy need not have any claim to the LGC. Often when a women its a husband or son or brother in law. Sometimes due to infirmity/age the heir of the LGC act as their fathers deputy

[pyvery]

I remember reading about twenty years ago that the family members of the Ancaster/Lincolnshire portion had decided amongst themselves that Lord Carrington would be their nominee ,which is where I think that lord Northbrook's comment comes from.perhaps some of the holders of the shares /portions could shed some light on this.

[john]

Can anyone confirm if the current family tree on wikipedia is up to date and correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Great_Chamberlain#Joint_hereditary_Lord_Great_Chamberlains,_1780%E2%80%93present

[Henry W]

I believe all the heirs are correctly shown living.

I have recently become aware of the following FOI request filed on the Parliament website.

https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/foi/house-of-lords-foi-and-data-protection/foi-responses---calendar-year-2019/foi-3165---response.pdf

Perhaps submitted by one of our number?

1) Who is presently expected to hold the office after the Demise of the Crown?
The House Administration holds recorded information on who is “presently expected” to hold the office, as per your question.

The office of Lord Great Chamberlain is hereditary and alternates by reign between the heirs of certain families. As the position is currently held by the Marquess of Cholmondeley for the duration of the Queen’s reign, it is expected to pass down the Carrington line next. On that basis, it is expected to pass to Rupert Carington, 7th Baron Carrington for the next monarch’s reign. However, it should be noted that the appointment of the Lord Great Chamberlain is not determined by the House of Lords Administration

This confirms our previous expectation that Lord Carrington will exercise the office of LGC in the next reign.  

Whilst the list of co-heirs is not up-to-date with all the deaths, it does give a couple of corrections to that previously stated:

Nicholas Llewellyn Palmer (born 1999) - note spelling of first surname - different from my post, and year of birth given as 1999 not 1998.

Hon. Mrs. Williams (born 1963) - this is Ysabel WILSON who I previously listed as unm.  See Debrett's database - Baron Nunburnholme - she m 2003 Richard WILLIAMS & the database spells her first name as Ysabelle. No issue listed, so her co-heirs are still her sisters.

[colinp]

Hon Ysabelle Williams nee Wilson died on 24 May 2022 -  WILLIAMS, Hon Ysabelle (Hon Ysabelle Alexandria nee WILSON) 1963-2022 (google.com)

[colinp]

I came across the following interesting announcement in the London Gazette 14 Nov 1990 - obviously following Lord Cholmondeley's succession as Marquess:

  HOME OFFICE Queen Anne's Gate, London SW1 9AT 9th November 1990 THE QUEEN has been pleased by Warrant under Her Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date Sth November 1990, to approve the selection of David George Philip, Marquess of Cholmondeley to perform and execute the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England. [my bold]

His does not seem to have automatically succeeded as LGC when he succeeded to the marquisate  

[Henry W]

Thanks Colin for bringing this to our attention.  I have researched other appointments of the LGC in the London Gazette and they are detailed below.  It is quite clear that the Crown's continuing consent to the agreement that allows the rotation of the office-holders is required, and that the Crown, at least in theory, could decline to approve - this may become relevant with the number of small shares, or if one of the number of heirs were no longer a UK citizen / domiciled in the UK.

11 August 1781 [George III, on death of 3rd Duke of ANCASTER AND KESTEVEN]
THE King has been pleased to approve of the Appointment of Sir Peter Burrell, Knight, to exercise the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England, as Deputy to the Right Honourable Priscilla Barbara Elizabeth Baroness Willoughby of Eresby, and Lady Georgina Charlotte Bertie, Sisters and Coheirs of his Grace Robert, late Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven, Hereditary Lord Great Chamberlain of England, deceased.

[NB Sir Peter BURRELL was the wife of Priscilla, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby.  He was made Baron GWYDYR in 1796, so was Deputy LGC for 15 years without being a member of the House of Lords]

19 June 1821 [George IV, on accession]
The King has been pleased to approve of the appointment of Peter Robert Lord Gwydir to exercise the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England, as Deputy to the Right Honourable Priscilla Barbara Elizabeth Baroness Willoughby, of Eresby, and Georgiua Charlotte Marchioness of Cholmondeley, coheiresses of the said office

[NB Peter Robert had succeeded his father in 1820 as 2nd Baron GWYDYR and would later succeed his mother as 22nd Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY in 1828]

1830 [William IV]
Not yet found - should be appointing 2nd Marquess of CHOLMONDELEY.

1837 [Victoria, on accession]
Not yet found - should be (re-)appointing 22nd Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY

1865 [Victoria, on death of 22nd Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY]
Not yet found - should be appointing 23rd Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY

27 January 1871 [Victoria, on death of 23rd Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY]
THE Queen has been pleased to approve of the appointment of Gilbert Henry, Lord Aveland, to exercise the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England, as Deputy to Clementina Elizabeth, Dowager Lady Aveland, and Charlotte Augusta Annabella, Dowager Lady Carrington.

[NB Gilbert Henry was 2nd Baron AVELAND, later 25th Baron WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY from 1888, created 1st Earl of ANCASTER in 1892.  He was initially Deputy to his mother (Clementia) and his aunt (Charlotte), until the death of his mother in 1888.]

3 September 1901 [Edward VII, on accession]
THE King has been pleased, by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to appoint George Henry Hugh, Marquess of Cholmondeley to the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England, to hold the said office until such time as His Majesty's pleasure shall be further signified.
Such appointment shall in no way prejudice the claims to the said office which have been referred by the King to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled to report thereon, and shall not confer upon the said George Henry Hugh, Marquess of Cholmondeley, any right or title in or to the said office other than he may have had if such appointment had not been made by His Majesty.

24 June 1902 [Edward VII, on report of Committee for Privileges]
The KING has been pleased, by Warrant under His Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 21st instant, to approve of-the nomination and appointment of George Henry Hugh, Marquess of Cholmondeley, to exercise the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England, such appointment having been made by the claimants to the said office, viz., the said George Henry Hugh, Marquess of Cholmondeley, Gilbert Henry, Earl of Ancaster, and Charles Robert, Earl Carrington, G.C.M.G., in whom, on the finding of the Committee for Privileges of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, the right of selection of a deputy vests.

31 January 1911 [George V, on accession]
The KING has been pleased, by Warrant under His Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 30th instant, to approve of the appointment of Charles Robert, Earl Carrington, K.G., G.C.M.G., to execute the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England.

[NB Charles Robert, Earl Carrington was created Marquess of LINCOLNSHIRE in 1912]

16 October 1928 [George V, on death of the Marquess of Lincolnshire]
The KING has (been pleased, by Warrant under His Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 18th instant, to approve of the selection of Viscount Lewisham to execute the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England.

[NB new LGC was not amongst the co-heirs, but instead the husband of one of the daughters of the late Marquess of Lincolnshire.  He does not appear to have been appointed Deputy (cf 1781 or 1871). He succeeded as 7th Earl of DARTMOUTH in May 1936,  after his appointment as LGC lapsed in January 1936 following the death of George V.]

24 July 1936 [Edward VIII, on accession]
The KING has been pleased, by Warrant under His Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 20th instant, to approve of the Selection of the Most Honourable George Horatio Charles, Marquess of Cholmondeley, to perform and execute the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England.

29 January 1937 [George VI, on accession]
The KING has been pleased, by Warrant under His Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 22nd instant, to approve of the selection of the Earl of Ancaster to execute the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England

1951 [George VI, on death of 2nd Earl of ANCASTER]

Not yet found - should be appointing 3rd Earl of ANCASTER

13 June 1952 [Elizabeth II, on accession]
The QUEEN has been pleased by Warrant under Her Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 9th instant, to approve the selection of George Horatio Charles, Marquess of Cholmondeley, to perform and execute the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England.

3 June 1966 [Elizabeth II, following infirmity of the 5th Marquess]
The QUEEN has been pleased by Warrant under Her Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date the 27th May, to approve the selection of George Hugh Cholmondeley, Esquire (commonly called Earl of Rocksavage), to perform and execute the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England.

[NB the Earl of Rocksavage would succeed as 6th Marquess of Cholmondeley in 1968]

14 November 1990 [Elizabeth II, following death of 6th Marquess]
THE QUEEN has been pleased by Warrant under Her Majesty's Royal Sign Manual, bearing date 5th November 1990, to approve the selection of David George Philip, Marquess of Cholmondeley to perform and execute the office of Lord Great Chamberlain of England

[malcolm davies]

Henry,

           Thanks for this.

  It confirms my thoughts in my post of 23 July 2018.

  I was amused by this " Sir Peter BURRELL was the wife of Priscilla, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby".The first gay marriage! 

[john]

Henry & colin,

Thanks for this. As far as I remember, the House of Lords decided in 1779 (and confirmed in 1902) that, as long as the office is shared, the shareholder should come to an agreement for an Deputy for the monarch to confirm. The requirement to be Deupty is to be at least of the rank of a knight (a non peer as Deputy would be very interesting, but really unlikely). If the shareholders do not agree, the monarch will appoint a deputy themself, till an agreement is reached.

[Henry W]

Malcolm,

Indeed - an entertaining typo on my part!!

Another mistake I made - the 1781 announcement was following the death of the 4th Duke of Ancaster & Kesteven (died 1779).  The 3rd Duke (died 1778) was the father of the two co-heirs, but he had briefly been succeeded by his son.

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

Who will succeed as the next Lord Great Chamberlain ? Can a women succeed ? As in the Baroness Willoughby de Eresby ?  Or can it be the Lord Nunburnholme !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Heathcote-Drummond-Willoughby,_28th_Baroness_Willoughby_de_Eresby

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC+10 Henry W wrote:

[john]

Harry Legge-Bourke, one of the Lincolnshire-heirs tweeted, that Lord Carrington will execute the office of the LGC: https://twitter.com/LeggeBourke/status/1567946229954273280

In my humble opinion it should be possible for a woman to execute this office, as female peers are now allowed in the chamber. The original ruling of the HoL only says, that the person need to be at least in the rang of a knight.

[Henry W]

See my post of 17 March 2019 - it has long been known that Lord Carrington will execute the LGC office, even though he is not amongst the Joint LGCs.

As the LGC is ex-officio an excepted hereditary peer, there may be an additional vacancy amongst the excepted hereditary peers elected by the Crossbench peers as Lord Carrington is one of these peers currently.  Presumably there was some discussion in the background about getting Lord Carrington into the House ahead of his anticipated LGC-ship so that he would have experience of the House before rotating into the role.

If there is a rule against female LGCs (and I don't think there is)), it would undoubtedly be overturned in the modern era.  Whilst Baroness Willoughby de Eresby is a joint LGC, her share is due to execute the LGC-ship in the reign after next (assuming no accidents, the anticipated regin of Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge) - it is likely to have divided further by then.

[Henry W]

From Hansard of 10 September 2022

The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith), the Lord Privy Seal (Lord True), Baroness Smith of Basildon, Baroness Williams of Trafford, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, Lord Newby, Lord Stoneham of Droxford, Lord Judge, the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, the Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) and the Lord Great Chamberlain (Lord Carrington) took the oath.

This appears to be the first official confirmation I can find that Lord Carrington has formally become the LGC.  I imagine we will need to await an item in the Court Circular similar to the previous notices posted on 31 August.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

A very small connection between Lord Carrington and the Queen Consort.

Lord Carrington's sister, the Hon. Virginia, was married to the 4th Baron Ashcombe.  The couple had no children and  later divorced.

The Cubitts were the family of the Queen Consort's mother.

Brooke

[Henry W]

Thanks Brooke.

Of course we should not forget that Lord Carrington and HM The King are 5th cousins, once removed through their common descent from Abel SMITH the Banker (1717-1788).  Carrington is indeed a Smith in the male line.

[Richard R]

The gentleman preceding The KING this morning in Westminster Hall looks very like Lord Carrington.

[Richard R]

Definitely Lord Carrington.

[Richard R]

See attached doc

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

I felt sorry for the Marquess of Cholmondeley.... although he obviously knew that the role of LGC was not for his life, he must be sad that at the moment of such historic activity...  he is not involved.  Lord Carrington is 73yrs (same age as The King) and looked so old and sadly unsure of what to do at Westminster Hall... must be a lot for him to take in, in such a short amount of time - esp in front of the World's press etc.  He clearly was nervous and looked awkward.  

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 10:57:32 AM UTC+1 Richard R wrote:

See attached doc

[malcolm davies]

LMOB(if i can abreviate your identity as such without disrespect),

                               As he is only 62,11 years younger than the King,he is likely to be alive at the death of King Charles when the position will revert to him.

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Malcolm - (no disrespect taken)...  yes indeed, it was just on a personal thought, being involved in Court life so much as LGC, I genuinely feel sorry for Lord Cholmondeley to have it all taken away literally at a heartbeat.  Of course - as we all know, who knows what the fates have in store?  His twins by then will be grown up too!

[Henry W]

I have updated this listing and now keep it in Google Docs:

Joint Lord Great Chamberlains & their heirs

Corrections very welcome.

[malcolm davies]

Henry W,

                Thanks for your table.Under the family agreement Lady Willoughby d'Eresby's share will take over the role of Lord Great Chamberlain in the reign of KIng George VII.That is unlikely to be before 2065 or thereabouts.Lady Willoughby's heirs will likely be dead by then,so it will be either Merlin Miller or Roman Aird and the selection between those two will be influenced by whoever receives a call from abeyance of the barony.

  The present Lord Great Chamberlain,Lord Carrington is 74,one month younger than the King.He may well die before the King.Does anyone know what the family have decided as to who will take his place if that happens?

[Henry W]

No guarantee that the abeyance will be terminated by the Crown, though I agree it is more likely due to the unique circumstances.

[gorgo...@gmail.com]

>>> The present Lord Great Chamberlain,Lord Carrington is 74,one month younger than the King.He may well die before the King.Does anyone know what the family have decided as to who will take his place if that happens?

On paper Rufus Keppel, 10th Earl of Albemarle seems like the best choice.

[john]

For the Carrington share, I assume that the 7th Lord Carrington will be succeeded by the 8th Lord Carrington. Although two peers could be considered, I wouldn't give them much of a chance. The Earl of Albemarle has now stood in 17 by-elections for the House of Lords and rarely gets votes. He could be seen as a way of circumventing the by-election system and is therefore not an advisable option.
The Marquessate of Donegall is in the Peerage of Ireland, but the Marquess is also Baron Fishwick in the Peerage of Great Britain and Baron Templemore in the Peerage of the United Kingdom. However, he only petioned on 19 April to be entered in the register of peers.

The Willoughby share is a little more complex. The simple answer would be: whoever, in whose favour, the abeyance of the barony is terminated. If it doesn't, it's worth remembering the old House of Lords decision that whoever acts as Lord Great Chamberlain must be of the rank of knight or higher. This would make any Aird Baronet a suitable candidate. The downside would be that he wouldn't enjoy being an ex-officio member of the House of Lords. On the other hand: Cholmondeley never contributed to the House, and Carrington was already an elected excepted peer. It would not do much harm to have a baronet as LGC.

[malcolm davies]

John,

         Can you give me the reference to the House of Lords decision.

  Since its a family decision and the LGC does not make a political contribution,I don't see how Lord Albemarle's failure to be elected is relevant.As to Donegall,there is nothing in the House of Lords Act 1999 that requires the LGC to be on the roll of the peerage and the fact that some of his peerages are in the peerage of Ireland and therefore convey no seat in the House of Lords does not take us anywhere.Let's assume he held no peerage in the peerage of England,Great Britain or the UK.He is still a peer,but has no seat.That itself does not exclude him from being a delegate of the family for the position-that's why its important to review what the House of Lords actually said.

[Henry W]

I agree that if the Earl of Albemarle has been overlooked in 2022 (despite controlling 1/5 of the Carrington share) then he is unlikely to prevail at a later date if 7th Baron CARRINGTON pre-deceases the King.  I had overlooked his previous candidacies which clearly "show an interest" in the House's work, but he has never really got that far as John says.  On the other hand Lord CARRINGTON was elected on his first attempt.

It will be interesting to see if the Marquess of DONEGALL puts himself forward in any by-election, but he is only a few years younger than the KING and Lord CARRINGTON. It could be many years before Lord CARRINGTON is unable to serve as LGC (remember that the holder changed in 1966 from the 5th Marquess of CHOLOMONDELEY to the 6th Marquess due to the infirmity of the 5th Marquess, so Lord CARRINGTON does not have to die).

[john]

malcolm,

The ruling of the Committee of Privilige was reported  and printed in hansard: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1902-05-06/debates/f6d3d575-f21a-4895-9c17-86e36f270bb0/LordsChamber

Has anyone access to the printed minutes of procedure before the committee from that time?

I forgot my main point, why I expect, that the future 8th Lord CARRINGTON will suceed the 7th Lord CARRINGTON as deputy LGC for the Carington share: When I first heard that the Carington share agreed on a Lord CARRINGTON to deputise when they need such a deputy, the 6th Lord was still alive.

[malcolm davies]

John,

          Thanks for that.Your point is a good one-namely that in fact the choice has already been made.This was no doubt done to avoid family argument-the shares having been split so many ways.The only drama will occur if both  Lord Carrington and his son predecease the King and the son has no male heir.