Frances Giffard Throckmorton

[dpth...@gmail.com]

I wonder whether anyone has access to any records which would shed light on the following mystery:

Dan Willis, in his excellent new book series on the descendants of King Charles II, says that Frances Giffard, wife of William Throckmorton and mother of the 8th Baronet of that name, was daughter of Thomas Giffard of Chillington by his first wife, Barbara Petre. However, all the peerage books say that Frances was daughter by Giffard's third marriage to Frances Stonor. A list of books saying that Stonor was the mother includes:

Burke’s Commoners (1838/40) and Burke’s Landed Gentry (1906 & 1937 for sure, and probably all other editions)

Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Volume 4, p.61 (1883). 

Debrett's Baronetage, 1832 and 1829.

 

Dan Willis says that he found a marriage record for Frances Giffard and William Throckmorton giving her age such that she was born around 1763, which was when her father’s first wife, Barbara Petre, died. Thomas Giffard’s second wife died already in 1764, and Netty Leistra has found a marriage record of Thomas Giffard and Frances Stonor for 1769.

So, the question is, was Frances Giffard’s age given incorrectly in her marriage record, or are the many Peerage books incorrect in attributing that maternity?

This is an important issue to some of us, because Barbara Petre was a Charles II descendant, and if Frances Giffard was her daughter, then Frances’ children are as well.

Thanks for any help anyone can give!

[G. Willis]

This page makes reference to these families: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fUEzAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA439&dq=Frances+Giffard+William+Throckmorton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAmoVChMIj-bk7YzDxwIVwbgUCh1YNQ_p#v=onepage&q=Frances%20Giffard%20William%20Throckmorton&f=false

I'm afraid I'm just off to bed (it being nearly 3 A.M.!) so haven't had a chance to take a proper look, but I do note a definite mention of the death of Barbara (I think Throckmorton; mine was sadly a cursory read!), wife of Thomas Giffard in 1764 'less than a year from the time of her marriage'. I don't know if this is of any use, but as I found it it was worth passing on. I may well resume looking into this tomorrow (can't resist a challenge!) given sufficient time.

[Paul Theroff]

Yes, the Barbara who died in 1764 was Barbara Throckmorton, Thomas Giffard's second wife, She died within a year of her wedding, and all agree that she had only one child, a son, who eventually succeeded his father. There seem to have been many Throckmorton/Giffard marriages over the years, probably because there was a limited number of leading Catholic families. 

Thanks for your reply, and I'll look forward to hearing anything else you can find!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Peerage News" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/peerage-news/peOzzEmPmzE/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to peerage-news...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to peerag...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/peerage-news.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Paul Theroff

[Olivier]

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/frances-giffard_21233488

Frances Giffard

Found 10 Records, 5 Photos and 745,283 Family Trees

Born in Chillington, Staffordshire, England on 1768 to Thomas Giffard and Frances Stonor

[Olivier]

http://www.thepeerage.com/p14665.htm

 

Frances Giffard1

F, #146644

Last Edited=22 May 2008

     Frances Giffard is the daughter of Thomas Giffard, 22nd of Chillington andHon. Barbara Petre.1,2 She married William Throckmorton, son of GeorgeThrockmorton and Anne Maria Paston, on 19 February 1798.1,3
      

 

Citations

1. [S15] George Edward Cokayne, editor, The Complete Baronetage, 5 volumes (no date (c. 1900); reprint, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 1983), volume II, page 199. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Baronetage.
2. [S1281] Dr. Andrew Gray, "re: Sir Robert George Maxwell Throckmorton, 11th Bt.," e-mail message to Darryl Lundy, 28 February 2005. Hereinafter cited as "re: Robert George Maxwell Throckmorton."
3. [S34] BP1970 page 2643. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as.[S34]

[Paul Theroff]

That article in The Complete Baronetage merely says that Frances was daughter of Thomas Giffard, and does not say who her mother was. I don't have the 1970 Burke's Peerage, but the 1959 one says that her mother was Frances Stonor. It's worth noting that if her mother was Barbara Petre, then she must have been born in or before 1763. She married in 1798 and had children through at least 1808.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Peerage News" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/peerage-news/peOzzEmPmzE/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to peerage-news...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to peerag...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/peerage-news.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Paul Theroff

[G. Willis]

I've had a short run at it and this 1804 source: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kay4r66_6KAC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=Frances+Giffard+William+Throckmorton+1798&source=bl&ots=vy2qZbyUwQ&sig=B4_7wj_0ih315qiqKLORWYiyppc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCGoVChMI_9716obExwIVg7MUCh1ckw4I#v=onepage&q=Frances%20Giffard%20William%20Throckmorton%201798&f=false

I believe (again, sadly, strapped for time as I'm going out in a moment so haven't been able to REALLY read this through- will look at this more later, though, as it's pretty interesting) indicates Barbara Petre to have been mother of Frances Giffard who married William Throckmorton. My mentality is usually that the nearer to the events themselves the records were compiled, the more likely the records are to be correct (although I quite appreciate that this is not a scientific method!); as such most of the evidence before this one piece, having been put together in the 1820s (such as The Baronetage of England by John Debrett, 1824, which indicates Frances Stonor to have been the mother) was compelling to me, but this I think is quite a good source.

Is the marriage record of Thomas Giffard and Frances Stonor viewable anywhere online? I should be interested to take a look if so, simply as a piece of this puzzle!

[Paul Theroff]

Thanks for that 1804 source, but it already has one clear error, in that it calls Thomas Giffard's son, Thomas, the son of Barbara Petre as well, when it is clear froma ll other sources, including a House of Commons report I found) that this son Thomas was son of the second wife, Barbara Throckmorton. Thus I don't think that this is a reliable source on this issue.

[Paul Theroff]

Here is a link to the House of Commons report showing the proof that Thomas, Jr. was son of the second marriage, and not of the first, as was said in that 1804 source.

--

Paul Theroff

[Netty]

Found some documents (or at least written down in Ancestry, so not the original documents).

Thomas Giffard, 22nd of Chillington (aged 30 in February 1769) m. 3) Saint Thomas, Winchester, Hampshire, 6 February 1769, Frances Stonor (aged 21 upon marriage)

Born on 18 March 1762 (8.45am) Mary Catherine, eldest daughter of Thomas Giffard, Esq, of Chillington and the Hon Barbara Petre. Godparents: Sir E. Smythe (baron) and the Right Hon. Lady Stourton.

Thomas Giffard of Chillington and his second wife Barbara Throckmorton [the second wife of Thomas's father by the way had the same name] had a son, Thomas Joseph, on 8 May 1764, ca. 10am (his eldest son). Godparents: Sir Robert Throckmorton, Bt (his grandfather) and Lady Smythe. This Barbara died on 10 May 1764.

Despite of the age given in his third marriage papers I have found the birth of Thomas Giffard, second son of Peter Giffard and first son of his wife Madam Roberts, on 11 April 1734 (5.30am). Godparents: Mr John Giffard and Miss Mary Roberts.

His sister Catherine, third daughter of Peter Giffard, Esq. and Mrs Helena Roberts however was christened on 17 March 1734 (godparents: Thomas Mornington and Mrs Catherine Moor).

There was another son: John Bonaventure, born 17 May 1737. Helena Roberts died on 23 May 1737. As she is listed as Peter's last wife and mother of Thomas, he must have been born before her death.

Source: Staffordshire, Roman Catholic Registers 1720-1830

[Richard R]

Thanks Netty - and other posters - some interesting sleuthing and some from very reliable sources!

[Paul Theroff]

Thanks! 

So far it's very frustrating that there is no record of Frances Giffard's birth.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Peerage News" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/peerage-news/peOzzEmPmzE/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to peerage-news...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to peerag...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/peerage-news.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Paul Theroff

[G. Willis]

Well, I've more or less been defeated here; one minor thing I did find, though, from the Gentleman's Magazine of 1798, stating 'At Tor-Abbey, co. Devon, William Throgmorton, esq. of London, to Miss Giffard, dau. of Mrs Carey, of Tor-Abbey'. Does her mother (presumably, given the factors at hand, the former Frances Stonor, according to this information) being Mrs Carey jibe with anything we already had? At the very least it indicates who it was that Frances Giffard held to be her mother during her own lifetime, which might be considered fairly conclusive.

EDIT: I've found in Burke's LG 1862 vol I, under 'Cary of Torr Abbey' (misspelled in the Gentleman's Mag., evidently), the marriage of George Cary to 'Frances Stonor, relict of Thomas Giffard, Esq. of Chillington'; this then I should say is fairly decisive at least with regard to whom Frances Giffard publicly stated to have been her mother; one would imagine then that she was indeed daughter of Frances Stonor.

Gentleman's Mag. 1798 link:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S6JJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA169&dq=William+Throgmorton+Tor-Abbey+Carey&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAGoVChMIyc7Yj6THxwIVRNYUCh26AwZJ#v=onepage&q=William%20Throgmorton%20Tor-Abbey%20Carey&f=false

Burke's 1862 link:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BSkAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA218&dq=Thomas+Giffard+Frances+Stonor+Carey&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI6qK89qLHxwIVCdQaCh1hWQ3O#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Giffard%20Frances%20Stonor%20Carey&f=false

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Michael Andrews-Reading did some research into original records and today sent me the results, which seem to show conclusively that Frances Giffard was indeed the daughter of Frances Stonor.

"Thomas Giffard of Chillington, Staffordshire, esquire, bachelor, married the Hon. Barbara Petre, spinster, at St George, Hanover Square on 26 April 1761 by Archbishop's licence.

 Mary Catherine (sic), daughter of Thomas Giffard and Barbara Petre, was baptised at Chillington RC Chapel, Brewood, Staffordshire on the day of her birth, 18 March 1762 (register transcript which names the time of birth and the godparents).

 The Hon. Barbara Giffard, wife of Thomas Giffard, esquire, was buried at Brewood, 12 April 1762 (original register)

 Thomas Giffard of Chillington, widower, married Barbara Throckmorton, a minor, at St George's Hanover Square, London, by Archbishop's licence, 13 June 1763 (original register)

 Thomas Joseph, son of Thomas Giffard and Barbara Throckmorton, baptised at Chillington RC Chapel, 8 May 1764 (the presumed day of his birth, since a time of birth is noted, as well as the godparents, the maternal grandfather Sir Robert Throckmorton, Bt, and the fact that the mother died "on the 10th day after her lying in, being 17th May" - register transcript).

 This doesn't seem to leave any real time for another child to have been born by either marriage.

 On 6 February 1769, Thomas Giffard of Brewood, Staffordshire, esquire, aged 30, had a licence from the Bishop of Winchester to marry Frances Stoner (sic), aged 21, a spinster of St Thomas, Winchester.

 The will of Frances Stonor's father, Thomas, is dated 26 May 1770, and does not refer to her then having any children.

 I cannot locate a baptismal entry for daughter Frances, but I can find her burial at Buckland, Berkshire on 5 June 1809 (register transcript): "Frances, wife of William Throckmorton, esquire, of Hanover Square, aged 36" - which indicates a birthdate of circa 1772. They were married at Torquay on 13 (sic, not 19) February 1798, according to the original register; George Cary (2nd husband of Frances Stonor) was a witness."