Succession by Kinsman

[S. S.]

I recently discovered the 20th Lord Borthwick [S] was succeeded by his 12th cousin, the 21st Lord Borthwick [S]. I wonder, how many other instances can be found in the peerage of a cousin beyond the first degree (i.e. a first cousin) succeeding to a peerage?

S.S.

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

Out of curiosity, did the 21st Lord Borthwick also inherit the castle as well ?

[marquess]

I think that the current earl of Northesk succeed and 8th cousin. 

[pyvery]

I also think that the Earl of Lincoln line of succession went to a tenth cousin.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

What is the relationship between the 31st Lord Kingsale, and the heir presumptive, who descends from the 3rd son of the 10th Lord?

Thanks.

Brooke

[S. S.]

Malta, as far as I can ascertain, when the 9th Lord Borthwick dsp  by Nov 1674, Borthwick Castle and the estates passed to his nephew, John Dundas, s and h of his sis, Hon Margaret (bapt 11 Aug 1617), who mar Robert Dundas of Harvieston. From then on, I believe the castle eventually went into disrepair, before being restored and hired as a commercial venue by the Borthwicks in the 1970s. 

S.S.

[S. S.]

Brooke, there is longstanding confusion and mystery surrounding the Barony of Kingsale [I] in general. Even more confusing is that sources differ on the numbering of the Barony of Kingsale. As to you referring to the 10th Baron Kingsale: 

According to Lodge's Peerage, that would be Nicholas (d ca 1410); according to the MacLysaght pedigree, that would be Patrick (d ca 1449; according to Debrett's Peerage, that would be David (d ca 1520); while according to Burke's Peerage that would be Gerald (dspm 1599), who actually is listed as 17th, 16th and 12th Baron Kingsale in Lodge's,  MacLysaght and Debrett's respectively. 

I think it is indeed David, 10th Baron Kingsale (d ca 1520) that you are referring to from which the heir presumptive, Joseph Kenneth Charles de Courcy (b 1955) descends from. Working backwards accordingly in Burke's Peerage, this is David, 8th Baron Kingsale. However this is both insufficient information and conflicting information between Debrett's and Burke's for me to accurately find out the relationship for the heir presumptive. 

S.S.

[S. S.]

Actually, I just realized that it is possible to at least confirm the descent now via Thepeerage.com courtesy of Darryl Lundy. From Debrett's Peerage (2003), we can extract the following information about Joseph de Courcy: Kenneth de Courcy (d 1999), ygr son of Walter Stephen de Courcy, son of Stephen de Courcy, son of Patrick de Courcy, great-grandson of David de Courcy, 2nd son of James de Courcy, eldest son of Hon James de Courcy, 3rd son of David, 10th Baron Kingsale (Debrett’s). 

The Hon James de Courcy given here is indeed given as the 4th and younger son of David, 8th Baron Kingsale, by Joan, daughter of Edmond Roche (a fact noted in both Debrett's and Burke's). 

David, 10th Baron Kingsale (Burke's) / 8th Baron Kingsale (Debrett's) married Joan, dau of Edmond Roche and had a 4th and ygr son, 

Rev Hon James, Rector of Ringrone, mar Katherine McCarthy, of Dunmanway, and had with other issue, who had a 2nd and ygr son, 

Edmond, of Dromdough; liv 1615, though blind; mar – MacSweeney, whose descendants were the following: James, father of James, father David who was the great-grandson of the preceding, father of Patrick, father of Stephen, father of Walter Stephen, father of Kenneth (d 1999), who was father of Joseph de Courcy (b 1955), the heir presumptive. 

S.S.

[pyvery]

The Barony of Harris has twice gone sideways to third or fourth cousins most recently this year to the 9th Baron.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

S.S.,

Sorry for the confusion.  I know the Kingsale barony's numbering situation is one that can drive a person to drink.

If it helps, I was referring to the numbering as currently shown in Debrett's Online Database.

Thanks.

Brooke

[pyvery]

The Earldom of Abergavenny is due to pass to a cousin once the present holder dies.

[Jonathan]

There must surely be many instances in the peerage of a title going to a cousin beyond the first degree, e.g. second cousins, etc.

One succession by a distant kinsman that comes to mind is when the last Duke of Portland was succeeded in the Earldom of Portland by his sixth cousin, the Dukedom becoming extinct. As with other examples including Northesk above, I believe this was an instance where there were daughters who were not able to succeed to the titles.

(The present Earls of Northesk and Portland are also both known for their appearances on BBC radio!)

[S. S.]

You are quite correct Jonathan that there are plenty of example by succession beyond the first degree. The real fun is compiling a list of every instance of this occurring in the peerage. Thankfully, as I currently work my way through Boscawen Rose and Bossom alphabetically for The Complete Peerage, I get to see the successions and the relation to the previous peer. I will be quite amused to see just how many of those beyond the first degree have succeeded to a peerage as to also nephews, uncles etc succeeding to a peerage. All in good time :)

S.S.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

I took a quick look at my files regarding this topic, looking at  current peers (Dukes, Marquesses and Earls/Countesses only) and their relationship to their heirs, both apparent and presumptive.

I eliminated all titles were there was an heir apparent, and just looked at the heirs presumptive.  Within that category, I wanted to focus on titles where there was a "cousinship" or "kinship" relationship, so that eliminated the hp's who were siblings, half-siblings, uncles, nephews, and grandchildren.

Here is the list I came up with (number of the peer is in parentheses)  (I was a bit pressed for time, so the list is not exhaustive.  Also, my apologies for any errors):

DUKE

Westminster (7th)-- Heir to the Marquessate of Westminster is a 3x great-grandson of the 1st Marquess )  

MARQUESS (stated in a previous post)

Abergavenny (6th)-- Heir to the Earldom of Abergavenny is a 2x gt-grandson of the 4th Earl.

EARLS

Arran (9th)-- Heir is a 4x gt-grandson of the 2nd Earl.

Buckinghamshire (10th)-- Heir is a 3x gt-grandson of the 3rd Earl.

Cavan (13th)-- Heir is a 7x gt-grandson of the 1st Earl.

Chichester (9th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 5th Earl.

Craven (9th)-- Heir is a grandson of the 3rd Earl.

Enniskillen (7th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 4th Earl.

Erne (7th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 4th Earl.

Essex (11th)-- Heir is a 5x gt-grandson of the 4th Earl.

Fortescue (8th)-- Heir is a grandson of the 6th Earl.

Gosford (7th)-- Heir is a grandson of the 5th Earl.

Home (16th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 13th Earl.

Morley (7th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 3rd Earl.

Onslow (8th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 2nd Earl.

Shannon (10th)-- Heir is a gt-grandson of the 5th Earl.

Brooke

[Windemere]

When the 10th Earl of Huntingdon died, he was succeeded by the 11th and 12th Earls ( two brothers I believe), who descended from the 2nd Earl. Not sure of the degree of cousinage, but it was likely pretty distant.

The heir to the present 17th Earl is his brother. After that, there will likely be another  jump, since the next heir I think descends from the 12th Earl (mentioned above). Perhaps a 6th cousin. I'm not sure where the succession goes after that.