Hon William Hay

[Michael Rhodes]

Clare C. Hay, styled Viscountess Dupplin, wife of Charles William
Harley Hay, M.A., styled Viscount Dupplin, (b. 20 December, 1962),
gave birth to a 1st son, William Hay, born 24 June, 2011, a brother

for the Hon Alice Hay, the Hon Catriona, & the Hon Auriol Hay.

 

Visc Dupplin is the only son and heir of the 15th Earl of Kinnoull,
and the former Gay Ann Lowson, and the Viscountess is the daughter of
His Honour William Hamilton Raymund Crawford, Q.C., (His Honour Judge
Crawford, a Circuit Judge since 1986), and Mrs William Crawford, (nee
Marilyn Jean Colville), of Dalgonar, Dumfriesshire. Lord Dupplin is a
barrister; director of Hiscox Underwriting, Ltd, since 1995; was
Associate, Credit Suisse First Boston Ltd, 1985-88; Underwriter,
Roberts & Hiscox, then Hiscox Syndicates Ltd, 1990-95. Lieutenant,
Atholl Highlanders, since 1993; Chairman of the Royal Caledonian Ball,
since 1996.

 

-==-

[Richard R]

I see the Telegraph notice of 29 June 2011 styles the new boy Lord
Kinfauns:

Dupplin
On 24th June 2011, to Clare (nee Crawford) and Charles, a son William
Hay, Lord Kinfauns, a brother for Alice, Catriona & Auriol


On Jun 29, 8:44 am, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

[bx...@yahoo.com]

According to Debrett's, technically he would be Lord Hay of Kinfauns.

I guess for whatever reason they decided on this title rather than the
alternative, Lord Hay of Pedwardine.

Anyway you look at it, it's good news. It seems like all the posts
this year have been about peerage/baronetage passings.

Hopefully, we'll see a few more postings like this in the future.

Brooke

> > -==-- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Kiwiboy]

I'm sorry, I'm slightly confused? I assumed there were only two
exceptions to the 'rule' that the heirs of Viscounts do not use
courtesy titles (the exceptions being the Duke of Manchester and the
Marquess of Londonderry).

[Turenne]

On 29 June, 21:32, Kiwiboy <jokopit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry, I'm slightly confused? I assumed there were only two
> exceptions to the 'rule' that the heirs of Viscounts do not use
> courtesy titles (the exceptions being the Duke of Manchester and the
> Marquess of Londonderry).
>

The rule doesn't apply in Scotland. If Lord Kinnoull didn't have any
spare titles knocking about, young William would be known as the
Master of Dupplin (or maybe Hay or Kinnoul).

RL

[marquess]

Master yes but not lord!

[marquess]

Technically speaking a the heir to the marquisate of Londonderry could
now style himself Earl Vane, as it was by this title that they
formerly say in that once august chamber. Though Castlereagh has more
historic recognition because of the foreign secretary who was so
styled.

[Turenne]

On 30 June, 01:12, marquess <marquessmarqu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > Master yes but not lord!
>

I'm not entirely sure that you are right. There seems to be an element
of choice for Scots peers...

As far as non Scots peerages are concerned; what about the situation
when the Earl of Durham disclaimed his peerage and called himself
'Viscount Lambton', his son went on to refer to himself as Baron
Durham.

RL

[marquess]

That is an entirely different case the child of a disclaimed peer is
still entitled to the style and precedence of the offspring of a peer.
Though many choose not to avail themselves of such styles, see the
earldom of Sandwich for an example. Therefore the heir to the earldom
of Durham was entitled to be styled as the ha to an earldom, he only
used the title Durham because his father having disclaimed was allowed
by the Speaker of the Commons to still be known as Viscount Lambton
even as he had previously had been known as when he was ha to his
father, but having disclaimed he was allowed to retain that
appellation even though he had no real entitlement to it. Grandsons of
earls are usually the Hon unless they have been predeceased by their
fathers (who would have had to have been the ha). So the eldest son of
the ha is always the Hon though in the case of a Scots peerage they
can sometimes be styled Master with the appellation of their father's
courtesy title.

[Turenne]

A friend who is well acquainted with Viscount Dupplin told me that he
had been in touch with Lord Dupplin and...

"....he spoke to the Lord Lyon's office about a suitable title for his
newborn son and they pondered the issue for a morning. The last
occupant of the grandson position was in 1916 when he was Lord Hay of
Kinfauns.
According to Lord Lyon's office, Master of Dupplin, known as Lord Hay
of Kinfauns, was the better view (there was the Balhousie title as
well, the Pedwarden one being a UK title and thus apparently a non
runner). The Lord Lyon team was worried that the Lord Hay of Kinfauns
option was possibly confusing with the sons of the Tweeddales and
Errolls and thus suggested that they called him Lord Kinfauns, which
was agreeable to the Earl of Kinnoull, the infant's grandfather and
head of the family."

RL

[marquess]

This is news! For it turns all form on its head, the grandson of an
earl being titled just as though he were the grandson of a marquess,
when the his father is still living, is there some special provision
in the patent, my Scots Peerage is not to hand? I should like to know
the Lord Lyon's provision for this.

[Turenne]

On 4 July, 00:08, marquess <marquessmarqu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> This is news! For it turns all form on its head, the grandson of an
> earl  being titled just as though he were the grandson of a marquess,

Things work differently in Scotland. Matters appear to be at Lyon's
discretion.

> when the his father is still living, is there some special provision
> in the patent,

Are courtesy titles ever mentioned in a patent?

> my Scots Peerage is not to hand? I should like to  know the Lord Lyon's provision for this.

Possibly usage. The previous Lord Hay of Kinfauns, to whom we
referred, was Lord Dupplin's grandfather, who succeeded his
grandfather as 14th Earl in 1916.

BTW The Earl of Kinnoull has been a peer for 73 years; is this the
longest hel peerage?

RL

[Turenne]

I seem to remember that the Earls of Wemyss and March change the
courtesy title of the ha from time to time. Sometimes it's Lord
Niedpath ( although the correct style is Lord Douglas of Neidpath),
and other times Lord Elcho. Technically, the senior title available is
Viscount Peebles...

RL

[Turenne]

To answer my own question:

Baron Foley of Kidderminster --- 84 years 3 months 1 day
Baron Montagu of Beaulieu --- 82 y 3 m 4 d
Baron Monk Bretton --- 77 y 11 m 5 d
Marquess of Waterford --- 76 y 9 m 9
Earl Kitchener of Khartoum --- 74 y 3 m 7 d
Earl of Kinnoull --- 73 y 3 m 16 d

RL

[marquess]

I am afraid that in 25 years interest in peerage matters, I have never
observed the grandson of any earl being style lord whilst his father
yet lives and is the ha, I shall have to see it in Debretts or Burkes
with an explanation as to why out of the 187 earls this one has to be
special, even if it is a Scottish earldom, master, yes but lord no.
The only possible exception that I can think of was with the
creation of the earldom of Munster, in which the monarch raised the
siblings of the first earl to the rank of younger son of a marquis.

[the_ver...@comcast.net]

http://www.genealogyblog.com

"Hitch not the Chariot of State to the twin steeds of Government and Religion, for down that path lies chaos"
Leto II

[Richard R]

Thank you Marquess and you win the prize for guessing correctly why I
made the post about the announcement. The child IS NOT entitled to the
courtesy style Lord and no doubt the Lord Lyon King of Arms will tell
the proud parents so if they try to register the little mite at Lyon
Court.

[Richard R]

> > Leto II- Hide quoted text -

[Turenne]

> On Jul 12, 11:33 am, Richard R <r_rut...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

> > Thank you Marquess and you win the prize for guessing correctly why I
> > made the post about the announcement. The child IS NOT entitled to the
> > courtesy style Lord and no doubt the Lord Lyon King of Arms will tell
> > the proud parents so if they try to register the little mite at Lyon
> > Court.
>

I think I stated earlier that Lord Dupplin has already consulted Lyon,
who doesn't seem to have a problem regarding William Hay being
referred to as Lord Kinfauns.

RL

[Richard R]

Hmmm. Source for that?

[Turenne]

On 12 July, 15:06, Richard R <r_rut...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hmmm. Source for that?
>

A friend of Lord Dupplin..

RL

[Richard R]

Thanks Richard.
Well, I look forward to seeing official confirmation of this as it is
a ground-breaking event. I know of no other example where a person,
simply for being a grandson in the direct line of a current earl, has
been accorded the courtesy style of Lord. Will this mean that existing
grandsons of current earls may now assume a lordly style (even if it's
just Scots earls)?
I don't doubt for one moment your scource Richard, but I'll remain
sceptical until I see something other than a family source for this
right. It is not in the gift of any British noble family to depart
from the accepted procedure for the use of peerage styles by courtesy.
Can anyone think of another example where someone, simply for being a
grandson in the direct line of an earl, has been allowed the style of
Lord?

[Richard R]

And I should have clarified, a grandson with a living father who is ha
and grandfather who is the earl?

[Richard R]

The 13th Earl of Kinnoull's son, styled vp Viscount Dupplin, died in
30 May 1903. At that point the late viscount's son was able to assume
his father's style as the new ha, which is permissable. The Complete
Peerage Vol 7 p326 states: "GEORGE HARLEY HAY, grandson and h [of 13th
Earl] being only s. and h. of Edmund (HAY), VISCOUNT DUPPLIN [d
1903] .... styled from 1903 VISCOUNT DUPPLIN, b. 30 Mar. 1902" [ie
this person held no courtesy style until his father's death made him
heir to his gf's title, to which he succ in 1916].