Ancestor chart for the Dukes?

[bx...@yahoo.com]

After seeing a chart showing how all of the European monarchs  are related, I was wondering if there was a similar one for all of the Dukes.

Thanks.  

Brooke

[dpth...@gmail.com]

that seems like a good project for you to work on  :)

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Here is something to get you started:

The following dukes are descended from Charles II:

Buccleuch & Queensberry
Richmond, Lennox and Gordon
St. Albans
Grafton
Norfolk
Beaufort
Northumberland
Hamilton & Brandon
Leinster
Bedford
Abercorn
Marlborough
Sutherland
Devonshire


The following dukes, as well as the ones above, are descended from James I:

Fife
Westminster


The following dukes, as well as the ones above, are descended from Henry VII:

Argyll
Roxburghe
Rutland
Wellington
Atholl

Manchester
Montrose

I may have missed some, and the dukes surely have common ancestors besides these kings, but I don't have an easy way to search that.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:11 AM UTC-5 bx...@yahoo.com wrote:

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Paul, I appreciate the homework.  Now, after the Queen's funeral and before the King's Coronation, I have nothing to do! 

You were actually very good.  You got all of the non-Royal Dukes, except Somerset.

If I may, two questions:

1.  Who does Somerset descend from and more importantly,

2. Is there a  common ancestor for all of the  dukes?

Thanks.

Brooke

[dpth...@gmail.com]

If you don't have a genealogy of the Seymour/Somersets you can see my page at https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/somerset.html

You can find lots of older genealogy books online by Googling: Burke's Peerage, Landed Gentry and Commoners, The Complete Peerage, Debrett's and other peerages. The fun is in doing the research, as I'm sure you'll find.  :)

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Your Online Gotha is invaluable.

Thanks for all of the clues!

Brooke

[RC]

Wikipedia states that the Somersets were originally descendants of John of Gaunt. It is one of the oldest Dukedoms. 

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you, RC.

Brooke

[malcolm davies]

All the Dukes are descendants of John of Gaunt,son of Edward III,as are all the heads of the Royal Houses of Europe,including the Catholic ones.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thanks, malcolm.

Do all extinct dukedoms also descend from him?

Brooke

[dpth...@gmail.com]

well, considering that his brothers were dukes, my guess is No.

[malcolm davies]

Brooke,

            From recollection most but not all-in particular the Dukes of Ancaster had no royal descent.

  But others such as Leeds,Newcastle,Portland & Cleveland did.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

It depends how far back you want to go. The Ancasters may not be John of Gaunt descendants, but they at least descend from Edward I.

For example, the Bertie Dukes of Ancaster descend from Peregrine Bertie, 13th Lord Willoughby de Eresby (Wesel 12 Oct 1555-Berwick 25 Jun 1601), and his wife Lady Mary de Vere (d.ca 1624).

Lady Mary de Vere descended from Richard, 11th Earl of Oxford (ca 1385-15 Feb 1417), and of his second wife, Alice Sergeaux (d.18 May 1452), a descendant of Edward I.


Edward I, 1272 King of England (Westminster Palace 17/18 Jun 1239-Burgh-on-the-Sands, nr Carlisle 7 Jul 1307; bur Westminster Abbey); m.1st Burgos 18 Oct 1254 Leonor (ca 1244-Herdeby Lincs 29 Nov 1290; bur Westminster Abbey), dau of King Fernando III of Castile and Léon; m.2nd Canterbury 8 Sep 1299 Marguerite (1275/9-Marlborough Castle 14 Feb 1317; bur Grey Friars, London), dau of King Philippe III of France
|
Joan (Acre 1272-Clare, Suffolk 23 Apr 1307; bur Clare Priory); m.1st Westminster Abbey 30 Apr/2 May 1290 Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (d.7 Dec 1295); m.2nd Jan 1297 Ralph de Monthermer (d.5 Apr 1325)
|
Eleanor de Clare (ca 1292-1337); m.1st 1306 Hugh Despencer (executed 1326); m.2nd 1327 William la Zouche (d.1337)
|
Isabel Despencer; m.1321 (annulled 1344) Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel (ca 1313-Arundel 24 Jan 1376)
|
Philippa Fitzalan; m.Sir Richard Sergeaux
|
Alice Sergeaux; m.1st Guy St.Aubyn; m.2nd 1406/7 Richard de Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford (ca 1385-15 Feb 1417)

[dpth...@gmail.com]

another royal Ancaster descent:

Henry Plantagenet, Earl of Lancaster & Leicester (Grosmont Castle ca 1281-Leicester 22 Sep 1345; bur Leicester Abbey); m.1st before 2 Mar 1297 Maud (1282-1317/22), dau of Sir Patrick Chaworth; m.2nd Alix (d.after 19 Apr 1336), dau of Jean de Joinville, and widow of Jean d’Arcis
|
Joan (b.ca 1312, d.after 6 Feb 1345); m.1327 John, Lord Mowbray (d.1361)
|
John Mowbray, Lord Mowbray, k.9 Oct 1368; m.Elizabeth Segrave
|
Eleanor Mowbray (ca 1364-    ); m.John, Lord Welles (d.26 Aug 1421)
|
Ives/Eudo Welles, dvp; m.Maud, dau of Ralph, Lord Greystock; she was a descendant of King John
|
Lionel Welles, Lord Welles,k.a.Towton 29 Mar 1461; m.1st Joan Waterton; m.2nd Margaret, dau of John Beauchamp, of Bletso, and widow of John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset
|
Cecily Welles; m.Sir Robert Willoughby, of Parham
|
Sir Christopher, of Parham (1453-1498/9); by modern doctrine he suc his cousin Joan de Welles in 1473/5 as de jure 10th Lord Willoughby, subject later to the 1475 attainders of the 8th Lord Willoughby and Welles and of his father, which attainders were reversed 1485; he m.before 28 Mar 1482 Margaret Jenney (d.1515/6)
|
William, 11th Lord Willoughby, summoned to Parliament from 1509, d.19 Oct 1526; m.1st Mary Hussey (dsp), sister of Lord Hussey; m.2nd 5 Jun 1516 Maria de Salinas, Maid of Honour to Queen Catherine
|
Katherine, de jure 12th Baroness Willoughby [de Eresby] (22 Mar 1519-19 Sep 1580); m.1st ca 1533 Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk (d.22 Aug 1545); m.2nd ca 1553 Richard Bertie (ca 1516/7-9 Apr 1582)
|
Peregrine Bertie, 13th Lord Willoughby de Eresby (Wesel 12 Oct 1555-Berwick 25 Jun 1601); m.1577/8 Lady Mary de Vere (d.ca 1624)
|
Robert, 14th Lord Willoughby de Eresby, cr 1626 Earl of Lindsey (ca 1582-k.a.Edgehill 23 Oct 1642); m.ca 1605 Hon. Elizabeth Montagu (1586-30 Nov 1654)
|
Montagu, 2nd Earl of Lindsey (d.London 25 Jul 1666); m.1st London 18 Apr 1627 Martha, Dowager Countess of Holdernesse, née Cokayne (1605-Jul 1641); m.2nd Bridget Sackville, née Wray, 4th Baroness Norreys of Rycote (12 May 1627-1657)
|
Robert, 3rd Earl of Lindsey (ca 1630-8 May 1701); m.1st 1654 Mary Berkeley, née Massingberd; m.2nd Hon. Elizabeth Wharton (d.ca 1669); m.3rd Lady Elizabeth Lee, née Pope (d.1 Jul 1719)
|
Robert, cr 1706 Marquess of Lindsey, cr 1715 Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven (20 Oct 1660-Grimsthorpe 26 Jul 1723); m.1st Westminster Abbey 30 Jul 1678 Mary Wynn (d.20 Sep 1689); m.2nd 6 Jul 1705 Albinia Farrington (d.29 Jul 1745), niece of Sir Edward Betenson, 2nd Bt.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

malcolm and Paul, thank you both.

Brooke

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

Brooke, a great website to go to on English high nobility genealogy (including most of European royalty and nobility) is this site.  https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha.htm

It will give you some guidance, also you can click on King James I descendants ( https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/James1.html ) and King Henry VII descendants ( https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/Henry7.html ).

[Jennifer Mary Stewart Browne]

As a point of interest it isn’t just Dukes.  Most of the aristocracy in England, Scotland and Wales go back to John Gaunt.
There is a web page which has the  Plantagenant desendants, also another page of descendants of William the Conqueror.

It gets very confusing, particularly in Scotland as Joan Beaufort married James I and two of their daughters married Scottish Nobility, Gordon earl of Huntly and another a Douglas, Earl of Morton.  Then the grandson of the Earl of Huntly, Master John Gordon married Lady Margaret Stewart, illegitimate daughter of James IV.

Joan Beaufort then married James Stewart, the Black Knight of Lorn.

 

The Stewarts intermarried considerably.

Please excuse any errors, as I am mostly going by memory.

Jenny

 

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[dpth...@gmail.com]

Here is a page I published many years ago showing descendants of King John up until around the end of the Wars of the Roses. It is not complete, but gives an idea of the extent of his descendants being ancestors of most of the important families of that era, and thus of later eras as well.

https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/kingjohn.html

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Many thanks to all of you who responded.

Looks like this will be an interesting project!

Brooke

[Jesse Honey]

Not just aristocrats- almost everyone with any English ancestry- see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59041055. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/peerage-news/72450D72-17AE-461D-86C8-530907C52FA2%40hxcore.ol.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Just as the great majority of people in western Europe, and many in eastern Europe, are probably descended from Charlemagne, though only a small part can prove it.

[Olivier]

Hi,

for beginning, I find https://gothanjou.blog/2022/09/09/charles-iii-et-les-dukes/

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Olivier, that site is amazing.

Thank you for sharing.   I think this may be the closest thing to being what I was looking for, or certainly, an excellent starting point.

Thanks again.

Brooke

[bx...@yahoo.com]

I'm hoping to pull this together at some point, and will post when I do.

Thanks to all who have posted till now.  

If anyone has any ideas, or anything to add, please let me know.

Brooke

[S R Eglesfield]

John Leveson-Gower, 1st Earl Gower (10 VIII 1694 - 25 XII 1694) and his first wife (married 1712), Lady Evelyn Pierrepoint (died 1727) are common ancestors of the following dukes:

Argyll

Northumberland

Hamilton & Brandon

Leinster

Sutherland

Norfolk

Westminster

Roxburghe

Abercorn

Devonshire

Beaufort

Bedford

Buccleuch & Queensberry

Marlborough

Additionally, Lord Gower's maternal grandparents, John Manners, 1st Duke of Rutland (29 V 1638 - 10 I 1711) and his third wife, Katherine Noel, daughter of the 3rd Viscount Campden, are ancestors of the Duke of Rutland.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you S R.

Every bit of information helps, as it really feel like a giant jigsaw puzzle.

Brooke

[malcolm davies]

Here is the descent of the Dukes of Somerset:

Edward III

Lionel of Antwerp,Duke of Clarence

Phillipa Mortimer,Countess of March

Elizabeth,Lady Percy

Elizabeth,Lady Stafford & Countess of Westmorland

Mary Wentworth

Sir Henry Wentworth

Margery Wentworth

!st Duke of Somerset

2nd to 18th Dukes of Somerset

19th Duke of Somerset

The 2nd to 6th Dukes of Somerset were additionally descended from the Tudors as follows:

Henry VII

Princess Mary,Duchess of Suffolk

Lady Frances Grey,Duchess of Suffolk

Lady Catherine Grey,Countess of Hertford

2nd Duke of Somerset to 6th Duke of Somerset

Note:this line of descent continues with the Dukes of Northumberland

The 3rd & 4th Dukes of Somerset were also descended from Princess Margaret d of Henry VII through Lady Margaret Douglas and the 1st Earl of Lennox.That descent also includes descent from Lady Joan Beaufort granddaughter of John of Gaunt Duke of Lancaster

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you, malcolm.

Brooke

[colinp]

Brooke, Michael Rhodes at peeragenews.blogspot.com has started (since 18 October) posting the descents of each of the dukes from, so far, Henry VII which you may be interested in.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

If I have this right, the 12th through 15th Dukes are also descended from Mary Tudor:

Pss Mary of England (Richmond Palace 18 Mar 1496-Westhorpe, Sussex 24 Jun 1533); m.1st Abbéville 9 Oct 1514 King Louis XII of France (Blois 27 Jun 1462-Palais du Tournelles, Paris 1 Jan 1515); m.2nd Paris 3 Mar 1515 Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk (1484-Guildford Palace 24 Aug 1545)
|
Lady Eleanor Brandon (ca 1520-Brougham Castle Nov 1547); m.Southwark Jun 1537 Henry Clifford, 2nd Earl of Cumberland (d.Brougham Castle 6 Jan 1570)
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Lady Margaret Clifford (1540-29 Sep 1596); m.7 Feb 1555 Henry Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby (d.25 Sep 1593)
|
William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby, d.29 Sep 1642; m.26 Jun 1594 Lady Elizabeth de Vere (d.10 Mar 1727)
|
James Stanley, 7th Earl of Derby (Knowsley 31 Jan 1607-beheaded at Bolton 15 Oct 1651); m.26 Jun 1626 Charlotte de la Tremouille (d.Chester 21 Mar 1664)
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Lady Amelia Ann Sophia Stanley, d.22 Feb 1703; m.5 May 1659 John Murray, Marquess of Atholl (2 May 1631-6 May 1703)
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Charles Murray, Earl of Dunmore (Knowsley 28 Feb 1661-19 Apr 1710); m.London 8 Dec 1682 Catharine Watts
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Lady Anne Murray (31 Oct 1687-30 Nov 1710); m.4 Apr 1706 John Cochrane, 4th Earl of Dundonald (4 Jul 1687-5 Jun 1720)
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Lady Catherine Cochrane, d.Bath 15 Mar 1786; m.Edinburgh 5 Jan 1729 Alexander Stewart, 6th Earl of Galloway (d.Aix-en-Provence 24 Sep 1773)
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Lady Harriet Stewart, d.26 Nov 1788; m.25 May 1765 Archibald Hamilton, 9th Duke of Hamilton and Brandon (15 Jul 1740-16 Feb 1819)
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Lady Charlotte Hamilton (6 Apr 1772-Somerset House 10 Jun 1827); m.24 Jun 1800 Edward Adolphus Seymour, 11th Duke of Somerset (24 Feb 1775-Somerset House 15 Aug 1855)
|

1.Edward Adolphus Seymour, later St.Maur, 12th Duke of Somerset (London 20 Dec 1804-Stover Lodge, nr Torquay 28 Nov 1885); m.London 10 Jun 1830 Jane Georgiana Sheridan (5 Nov 1809-London 14 Dec 1884)

2.Archibald Henry Algernon Seymour, 13th Duke of Somerset (30 Dec 1810-London 10 Jan 1891)

3.Algernon Percy Banks Seymour, 14th Duke of Somerset (London 22 Dec 1813-Wells 2 Oct 1894); m.London 17 May 1845 Horatia Isabella Frances Morier, who is a Charles II descendant
|
Algernon St.Maur, 15th Duke of Somerset (Bath 22 Jul 1846-Maiden Bradley 22 Oct 1923); m.Forres 5 Sep 1877 Susan Margaret Richards Mackinnon (d.30 Jan 1936)

[bx...@yahoo.com]

colinp, thank you very much.  Very much appreciated.

I have been working on a chart for several weeks, tracing as many dukes as possible, including many of those that are extinct.  Since there are so many interconnections between the ducal families and so many ways to do a chart like this,  I decided to begin with the creation of each dukedom (the first Duke in each case) and trace the line forward to, when possible, the current Duke.

This project is turning out to be far more extensive, but a lot more interesting,  than when I first decided to do it.  I hope to post the information when I'm done.

Thanks again!

Brooke