special reminders and women

[benjam....@gmail.com]

I looked at http://www.peerages.info/peeragesr.htm that is a great study of the special reminders in the Peerage of UK. There is another nice list of Peerage of Ireland since 1801 that can complete these datas.

Maybe I can say the follow things, but I am not sure to these, so it would be great some opinions:

- except for the Earl of Cromartie, Lady Pamela Hicks is the only woman in the line of succession of a Peerage create since 1801.

- All peerages create since 1801 (except Earl of Cromartie) have a reminder for heir male of the body lawfully begotten of SOMEONE (the grantee, his brothers, sisters, daughters, fathers). Cromartie has a special reminder in the ancient way of the scottish peerages.

I have some questions:

- Is  there some special reminder other than the heir male lawfully begotten of SOMEONE in the Peerage of Great Britain or in the Peerage of Ireland? (I found only Viscount Massereene)

- is there some special reminder that can pass to a female o in a female line in the baronetage?

thanks

[gorgo...@gmail.com]

>>> - is there some special reminder that can pass to a female o in a female line in the baronetage?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronet#Baronetess

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Probably you know this, but in case it was not just a typographical error, it is "remainder" and not "reminder".


I have a couple possible additions to the Wikipedia article, which lists four women who are considered to have been Baronetesses:


SPEELMAN (1686)

Cornelis Speelman, d.11 Jan 1684; m.Petronella Maria Wonderaer
1.John Cornelis (1 Feb 1659-4 Jun 1686); m.Debora Kievit (ca 1655-25 Sep 1695), who was probably maternal gdau of Sir Martin Harpertszoon van Tromp, 2nd Bt.; in 1686 John Cornelis was to be cr a Baronet, but died before the creation passed the Great Seal; on 9 Sep 1686 Debora, by Letters Patent, was raised to the rank of a Baronet’s widow, for Life, in the same Letters Patent in which her son was cr a Baronet; she is thus considered to have been cr a Baronetess


WISHART, of Cliftonhall [S] (1706)

Sir George Wishart, of Cliftonhall, cr Baronet [S] 1706, with remainder, failing his issue male, to his heirs whatsoever and their heirs male forever; fl Jan 1718, d.before Aug 1722; m.1st Anne Barclay (d.29 May 1708); m.2nd Fergusia Maccabin; there has been confusion about the remainder, with some holding that it meant to the issue male of the daughters, and others interpreting it as heirs general; furthermore, a male heir collateral eventually claimed the title; the title certainly passed through two females
1.[ex 1] Margaret; m.Daniel Stuart, son of Sir A Stuart of Castlemilk, Bt.; if Margaret survived her father she might have been entitled to the Baronetcy
1.1.George, of Colinton, d.Jun 1713
1.2.Sir William STUART, of Colinton, 2nd Bt., suc his maternal grandfather, d.6 Dec 1777; m. “a Venetian lady”
1.3.Mary, d.Dec 1739; m.John Belshes
1.3.1.Emilia Stuart BELSHES, d.1807; m.William Belshes; she has been accorded rank as de jure 3rd Baronetess on the theory that the remainder was equivalent to one to heirs general
1.3.1.1.Sir John BELSHES-WISHART, later STUART, 4th Bt. (ca 1752-4 Dec 1821); m.Nov 1775 Lady Jane Leslie-Melville (1 Apr 1753-28 Oct 1829); since his death the Baronetcy has remained dormant

[dpth...@gmail.com]

This may not be exactly what you're looking for, but the expansive remainders to the Dukedom of Marlborough eventually include all female as well as male descendants of the 1st Duke.

Simply put, the remainder is for:

1st, his heirs male;
2nd, his daughters and their heirs male, by primogeniture;
3rd, the daughters of his daughters, by primogeniture, and their heirs male; and
4th, to “all and every other issue…”.

See attached excerpt from The Complete Peerage.

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 4:40:34 AM UTC-5 benjam....@gmail.com wrote:

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Currently the line of succession to the Dukedom of Marlborough runs through the numerous male-line descendants of Lady Anne Churchill, Countess of Sunderland. These are the only people still eligible under the second remainder

If they were to become extinct, then we move to remainder 3. Since the extinction of the Dukes of Leeds in 1964, the only people eligible under remainder 3 are the male-line descendants of Lady Anne Egerton, Dowager Duchess of Bedford, and of her second husband, William Villiers, 3rd Earl of Jersey.

If all those Villiers descendants became extinct in the male line, we would move to remainder 4, all the descendants, of whatever gender, of the 1st Duke. Presumably, though it is not clearly stated, this would also be by primogeniture, in much the same way that "heirs general" are determined. In that case, it looks as if the first people in remainder 4 are the issue of Lady Charlotte Osborne and of her husband, Sackville Walter Lane-Fox, beginning with the daughters of the late 9th Baroness Fauconberg and 15t Baroness Conyers (d.2013).

[S. S.]

For the Peerage of Ireland, two examples come to my mind.

The first example is the Viscountcy of Massereene and the Barony of Loughneagh, created in 1660 for Sir John Clotworthy, of County Antrim. The peerage is granted with remainder to his heirs male, failing which, to his son-in-law, Sir John Skeffington Bt, and his heirs male by Mary Clotworthy (daughter of the grantee), failing which to the heirs general of the grantee’s own body.

The second example is the Barony of de la Poer (or la Poer), which title was recognized by the Crown in 1767 to have existed, to Lady Katherine, only daughter and heiress of James, 3rd Earl of Tyrone. She presented a claim in 1763 alleging to a “Barony of le Power” being created by writ of summons in 1375 to the Irish House of Lords and that she was the heir general to the title. Obviously, a barony in fee in the Peerage of Ireland is unheard of and the decision to permit Katherine to claim the barony is contentious. Nevertheless, the barony exists the only barony in fee in the Peerage of Ireland, with the majority of other Irish baronies being held to have been created by prescription and heritable by heirs male. 

[Windemere]

With a remainder such as the Marlborough one set forth above, it seems unlikely, barring some sort of natural catastrophe, that the title could ever become extinct. It includes the entire male-line Spencer-Churchill and Spencer families, as well as those male-line families further down in the line.And then followed by all female-line male descendants. And then by the females themselves.

This must have included the late Princess Diana. And I imagine that Princes William and Harry and their children must be in the remainder as well.