Trotter/Montagu Douglas Scott engagement

[Michael Rhodes]

___The engagement was announced 7 Oct, 2010, between Rupert T.
Trotter, youngest son of Maj and Mrs Alexander Trotter, of
Charterhall, Duns, and the Lady Louisa Montagu Douglas Scott, eldest
daughter of the Duke & Duchess of Buccleuch & Queensberry.


-==-

[Michael Rhodes]

Can Rupert be found in the BLG Trotter cols? I'm away from my
reference
books today.

On 7 Oct, 07:42, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

[marquess]

I thought that the current duke had decided to use the surname Scott
for himself and his issue, as per a post by Wil in our talk about the
Dalberg-Acton-Lyon thread?

On 6 Oct, 18:42, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

[G. Willis]

The chief of the name and arms of Trotter, Alexander Richard Trotter
of Mortonhall and 5th of Charterhall, has a son born 1977, Rupert
James, who appears (given the first post's information on the father's
address) to be the individual in question.

On 7 Oct, 09:33, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> > -==-- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Michael Rhodes]

On Oct 7, 9:51 am, marquess <marquessmarqu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I thought that the current duke had decided to use the surname Scott
> for himself and his issue, as per a post by Wil in our talk about the
> Dalberg-Acton-Lyon thread?

I must have been misinformed.

[G. Willis]

Well, (notwithstanding the perhaps slightly dubious reliability of the
site) Wikipedia certainly lists the 9th and 10th Dukes as simply
'Scott', although both were officially 'Montagu Douglas Scott', as is
the Earl of Dalkeith; unfortunately on none of their pages is the
surname issue clarified. I found an explanation that appears to
address matters in Debrett's Correct Form, 1976, the entirety of which
I might as well include although some details are irrelevant in this
case:

'Usually, but not invariably, those with double-barrelled names use
both names for everyday purposes, and those with triple-barrelled
names the final name only, e.g. the Douglas-Homes use both names,
whereas the Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes are often generally known as
Fiennes, and the Montagu Douglas Scotts as Scott. There are
exceptions, for some with two names often use only the second. One
remembers that Sir Winston Churchill did not use 'Spencer', though his
surname was Spencer-Churchill, and some Fitzalan-Howards are generally
known as Howard. The Earl of Minto's surname is Elliot-Murray-
Kynynmound (but not the collaterals); his family is usually known by
the first name of Elliot. Others prefer to use all three names, such
as some of the Cave-Browne-Caves. A few families have four or more
surnames. Sometimes the final two are used for everyday purposes, e.g.
the Hovell-Thurlow-Cumming-Bruce family as 'Cumming-Bruce', and the
Stirling Home Drummond Morays as the 'Drummond Morays'. Practise
varies according to the individual's wishes. Sometimes all the
surnames are restricted to formal occasions such as in wedding
announcements and legal documents: it is more usual for all surnames
to be placed on the envelope. If the practise is not known, it is not
wrong to use all the surnames.'

Well, most of this speaks for itself, but it's helpful to have
'official' comment I suppose!

On 7 Oct, 10:37, Michael Rhodes <mig73allenford2...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

[Richard R]

The 9th duke discontinued the use of M D S for himself and his heir
only, using instead Scott only. But the heir is now the 10th Duke and
appears to have returned to using M D S. I'm pretty certain the whole
family continue to use the triple surname. Of course, in social
situations such as drinks parties etc, I've come across scions of the
M D S clan who simply introduce themselves as 'John Scott' or 'Jane
Scott'. They're not alone in doing that. Most of my multiple surname
friends follow the same practice. And I suspect even the present Duke
of B refers to himself as 'Richard Scott', when not feeling the need
to use his ducal style and title.

On Oct 7, 10:49 am, "G. Willis"

> > I must have been misinformed.- Hide quoted text -

[hopewell]

So that would explain Prince Edward's daughter being known as "Louise
Windsor" and not "Mountbatten-Windsor". Scott, in the example at the
start of this thread, does sound a little more "democratic."

On Oct 7, 5:49 am, "G. Willis" <boundtotheflamingwh...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[sarac...@googlemail.com]

The reason for the late 9th Duke's decision was I believed because of
an internal matter between him and Lyon Court who generally because of
the Campbell-Gray court case(1950)- which established that in Scots
heraldic law,the bearing of a compound or double-barrelled name was an
absolute bar to assuming the chiefship of a Scottish clan or family -
would not allow him to be officially recognised as hereditary chief/
head of the Border clan Scott.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[marquess]

Interesting the reasoning seems to make sense, terms of being chief of
the clan yet possessing and additional name to that of the clan.
Perhaps each duke upon succession could simply officially revert to
the name Scott and allow the other family members to bear the
distinguished historical name? After all Lord James Montagu Douglas
Scot, sounds better than Lord James Scot!

On 7 Oct, 22:36, "saracen9...@googlemail.com"

[Turenne]

> <saracen9...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > The reason for the late 9th Duke's decision was I believed because of
> > an internal matter between him and Lyon Court who generally because of
> > the Campbell-Gray court case(1950)- which established that in Scots
> > heraldic law,the bearing of a compound or double-barrelled name was an
> > absolute bar to assuming the chiefship of a Scottish clan or family -
> > would not allow him to be officially recognised as hereditary chief/
> > head of the Border clan Scott.
>

A similar situation has occurred regarding the chieftaincy of the clan
Douglas. Alexander Douglas-Hamilton, 16th Duke of Hamilton, and 13th
Duke of Brandon is heir to the chieftaincy of the house of Douglas
owing to his ownership of The Marquisate of Douglas, and Earldom of
Angus , but he cannot assume the title of chief since the Lord Lyon
King of Arms requires him to assume the single name Douglas.

Richard L

[sarac...@googlemail.com]

To expand on a similar note on the Douglas-Hamiliton case is that
while the present 16th Duke of Hamilton & Brandon is the heir-male of
the house of Douglas,he is also considered heir-general of the house
of Hamilton by reason of his descent and tenure of the ducal
title.Plausibly he could assume the single name of Douglas to claim
this historic chiefship and leave the way open to the Hamilton heir-
male represented by the present Duke of Abercorn to do likewise,as
they have tried to do in previous generations but been knocked back by
Lyon Court decisions.It should also be noted that the 2 families are
still disputing who is the legitmate representative to the dormant
French ducal title of Chatellerault(1549).

[WilliamD]

Is it correct to say that the duke of Hamilton is the heir-male of the
house of Douglas? Surely this would be Johnny Douglas, earl of
Morton? The Hamilton claim comes down the female line, I think?

William

[WilliamD]

An explanation of a Chief of a clan being unable to claim same if he/
she has a double barrelled name is explained here:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_U0Ii-Om3EwC&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=clan+chief+double+barrelled+names&source=bl&ots=O3M9BQ9are&sig=blmCCJT5Df-6dWYHQCoVYpaEgM0&hl=en&ei=V0uwTJ3SNoWO4Aa-5cHPBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=double%20barrelled&f=false

The clans, septs & regiments of the Scottish Highlands By Frank Adam,
Sir Thomas Innes of Learney

William

On Oct 8, 11:36 am, "saracen9...@googlemail.com"

[Olivier]

Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott is a 7th cousin of Rupert Trotter.
Indeed, Alexander Gordon, Duke of Gordon and Jane Maxwell are at the
same time
◦ancestors of the 8th generation of Rupert Trotter
◦ancestors of the 8th generation of Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott

Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott is also a 7th cousin of a parent of
Rupert Trotter.
Indeed, William Henry Kerr, Marquess of Lothian andLouisa Carolina
Darcy are at the same time
◦ancestors of the 9th generation of Rupert Trotter
◦ancestors of the 8th generation of Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott

Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott is also a 8th cousin of Rupert Trotter.
Indeed,William Anne van Keppel, Earl of Albemarle and Anne Lennox
are at the same time
◦ancestors of the 9th generation of Rupert Trotter
◦ancestors of the 9th generation of Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott

Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott is also a daughter of a 8th cousin of
Rupert Trotter.
Indeed, George Brudenell, Earl of Cardiganand Elizabeth Bruce are at
the same time
◦ancestors of the 9th generation of Rupert Trotter
◦ancestors of the 10th generation of Louisa Montagu-Douglas-Scott

Source: http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en

[Turenne]

Saracen wrote:

>It should also be noted that the 2 families are still disputing who is the legitmate representative to the dormant French ducal title of >Chatellerault(1549).

Francoise Velde has a lot to say on the subject and argues the case
for both dukes very lucidly. Without a fons honorum that matter is
unlikely to be sorted out satisfactorily....

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/scotfr.htm

Richard L

[Turenne]

WilliamD wrote:

>Is it correct to say that the duke of Hamilton is the heir-male of the
>house of Douglas? Surely this would be Johnny Douglas, earl of
>Morton?

Probably the best claim comes from Lord Home, but we come across the
old problem of his being the current chief of the Home Clan.

Richard L