Queen Elizabeth II and Scottish titles

[Jelena JS]

Prince William is in remainder to the dukedom of Marlborough. I suspect that the queen is also in remainders to some Scottish titles. Her mother descended from almost all old Scottish aristocratic families.
It would be interesting to find out these titles. Any information?

[G. Willis]

Hello Jelena,

Although I am not at all knowledgeable about the Scottish system, nor about remainders in general, I won't be too worried if I'm corrected by one of our more experienced posters! I had a brief look at the earlier Strathmores (Lords Glamis), and it appears the Queen might be in remainder to the title of Lord Saltoun of Abernethy (the 8th Lord Glamis married a dau. of Lord Saltoun, and I see in later generations the title has passed through daughters, so if I understand correctly that would mean the Queen is distantly in remainder?)- as I say, though, take this with a pinch of salt as I couldn't find a definitive statement!

[www.maltagenealogy.com]

Prince William mother's brother and his sons are in remainder to the Dukedom but not the Duke of Cambridge or his brother.

[Jelena JS]

Thank you, G. Willia. I consider that my little theory is proved.

2017 m. gruodis 7 d., ketvirtadienis 17:25:42 UTC+2, G. Willis rašė:

Hello Jelena,

[Chuck]

They most certainly are in remainder. They are descendants of the first duke in a legitimate line of descent. That's all that's needed. I take it you haven't read the provisions of the letters patent? It is NOT to heirs male.

[Richard R]

Just to be clear. If at any point the sovereign succeeds to a peerage, be it Saltoun, Marlborough or any other dignity, that title ceases to exist and it's as though it's extinct. This is because the sovereign is the font of all honours and cannot hold a title of itself. The British monarch is different from continental monarchs in this respect, some of whom have all manner of lower titles and honours.

[Jonathan]

On Friday, 8 December 2017 10:09:56 UTC, Chuck wrote:

They most certainly are in remainder. They are descendants of the first duke in a legitimate line of descent. That's all that's needed. I take it you haven't read the provisions of the letters patent? It is NOT to heirs male.

The original letters patent were to heirs male, but after the death of Marlborough's only son shortly afterwards, Parliament passed the Duke of Marlborough Annuity Act 1706 which allowed his daughters and their heirs male to inherit, and failing that, the daughters of his daughters and their heirs male, and so forth. I have been unable to find the original wording of the Act, but Cracroft's Peerage says:

On 21 Dec 1706 he obtained an Act of Parliament settling the succession to his English peerages, together with the Manor of Woodstock and the Palace of Blenheim, failing the heirs male of his body to his daughters Henrietta (wife of Hon Francis Godolphin, later 2nd Earl of Godolphin), Anne (wife of Charles [Spencer], 3rd Earl of Sunderland), Elizabeth (wife of Scroop [Egerton], Earl of Bridgewater) and Mary (wife of John Montagu) in succession and the heirs male of their bodies;  failing which to any other daughter yet to be born and the heirs male of her body;  failing which to his grand-daughters (starting with the daughters of his eldest daughter, Lady Henrietta Godolphin) in succession and the heirs male of their bodies;  and lastly "to all and every other the issue male and female, lineally descending of or from the said Duke of Marlborough, in such manner and for such estate as the same are before limited to the before-mentioned issue of the said Duke, it being intended that the said honours shall continue, remain, and be invested in all the issue of the said Duke, so long as any such issue male or female shall continue, and be held and enjoyed by then severally and successively in manner and form aforesaid, the elder and the descendants of every elder issue to be preferred before the younger of such issue."  On his death the Scottish Lordship of Churchill of Eyemouth (and presumably the Principality of the Holy Roman Empire, as this was granted in the usual form which does not allow for the dignity to pass through daughters) became extinct

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/marlborough1702.htm

It is the final provision "to all and every other issue" that would see the princes inherit the dukedom, but as I read it, only after all the direct male descendants of the 3rd Duchess, and the male descendants of all the 3rd Duchess's female descendants in earlier generations. So while the royal princes are in the remainder, they are a very long way further down the line of succession than Earl Spencer.

[Jonathan]

It is the final provision "to all and every other issue" that would see the princes inherit the dukedom, but as I read it, only after all the direct male descendants of the 3rd Duchess, and the male descendants of all the 3rd Duchess's female descendants in earlier generations. So while the royal princes are in the remainder, they are a very long way further down the line of succession than Earl Spencer.

Sorry, I meant the 2nd Duchess, and her male descendants, and then the descendents of the 1st Duke's other daughters, etc.

[andrewbe...@gmail.com]

The exceptions to the Sovereign not holding titles are Duke of Lancaster and Duke of Normandy but, of course, these are not per se inherited in the same way other titles are. Indeed, the title of Duke of Normandy arguably is equivalent to that of King in that it is a sovereign title and not a peerage as William I was Duke of Normandy before he was King of England and his title of Duke was not as a vassal of the French king (I may be wrong on this latter point but I recall reading something that Rollo was given the title free from such entanglements).

Also, has a monarch ever inherited a title i.e. it was inherited after they came to the throne? Arguably such an inheritance would have come through the female line as kingship usually presupposes the death of the male parent and any males higher in succession. The only example I can think of straight away is if the Duke of Edinburgh outlives the Queen so that when he did in fact die the King (by whatever name the current Prince of Wales chooses to be known) would inherit the Dukedom and for it therefore to immediately expire. Any other examples?

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 11:20:50 AM UTC, Richard R wrote:

[Richard R]

The Sovereign's style as "Duke of Lancaster" is just that, a convention, not an actual peerage and stems, I think, from Henry IV's decision to keep the revenues from that duchy for the Crown's use after he 'succeeded' to the latter in 1399. It is not a title used in any proclamation or other formal document or at a coronation. The dukedom of Normandy is in a different category (ie not a hereditary peerage created by a British sovereign). The duchy passed to the The Conqueror's eldest son on the former's death and was held briefly by other immediate descendants of William I until it was confiscated by the King of France early in the 13th century. The British Crown retained The Channel Islands and they still refer to The Queen as 'Duke of Normandy' there, along the same lines as Lancaster. Louis XIV of France styled Charles II's brother (the future James VII & II) as 'Duke of Normandy' but I don't think there was any formal granting of the title and lands to him.

[Al]

Richard is correct they are fictions sadly repeated all too often. There is a HoL decision from the late C19 to the effect that the crown cannot hold any title from them self - barring an act of parliament that stands.