MacINTYRE, Ian Malcolm Grant (1940-2019)

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Ian Malcolm Grant MacIntyre, 17th Chieftain of Camus-na-h-Erie. died on 26 September in his 80th year, long-term companion of Anne, Countess of Dunmore, father of Duncan, Annabelle and Abby, missed by Katie, Rebecca and their families and by his grandchildren; Skye, Rosie, Zara, Poppy, Lily, Jack, Kitty, Lulu and Florrie. Thanksgiving Service to be held at the Canongate Kirk, Edinburgh, on Wednesday, 16 October.

Source: The Telegraph, 8 October 2019

He was born in 1940, son of Alastair MacIntyre and of his wife, Margery Grant-Morris, and married Angela Tickner in 1968; they divorced.

His companion must have been Anne Augusta Wallace, who married 1967 the 9th Earl of Dunmre (d.1980), and is mother of Kate and Rebecca.

[colinp]

Is the Chieftainship similar to a Scottish feudal barony or does it indicate he is head of a branch of Clan MacIntyre?

[G. Willis]

Hello Colin, you may of course have already seen this, but some details of this MacIntyre family here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacIntyre#Other_MacIntyre_families_and_groups

Doesn't seem to be too much information out there; a 1901 book called 'The MacIntyres of Glenoe and Camus-na-h-erie'; some mention of a Duncan MacIntyre b. 1757, 'the son of John MacIntyre of Camusnaherie (eleventh in descent to occupy that place, the first being Patrick, son of Maclntyre of Glenoe, chief of the Clan)'. 'The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands' by Frank Adam (1970) lists MacIntyre of 'Camus-na-herie', with the arms mentioned in the Wikipedia article, stating 'not matriculated for chief' (as the article also gave). I don't know how 'chieftainship' works, except to note that if Duncan MacIntyre b. 1757 was son of the '11th of Camus-na-h-erie', that would probably fit with Ian MacIntyre being '17th'; whether residence at this place, in addition to recognition of the arms, is sufficient to bestow 'chieftainship' (or acknowledgement of same) I'm not sure!

[G. Willis]

Some info. here also, including details of Ian MacIntyre- https://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macintyre/part3.htm

Index here- https://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macintyre/index.htm

[dpth...@gmail.com]

some genealogy from Burke's:

JAMES MACINTYRE, OF GLENOE; born c 1727; married Ann, daughter of Campbell of Barcaldine, and died 1799

1.DONALD, OF GLENOE; educated Edinburgh U; physician; emigrated NY, USA 1783; married Marmoneck, Westchester Co, NY by 1785 Esther Haines, and died Sunbury, PA 1792 --> MacIntyres  of Glenoe, Chiefs of MacIntyre

2.Jean; married (Rev) Duncan MacIntyre, Min Laggan and Kilmally, Argyll and Inverness-shire and Chaplain at Fort William, "3rd son but heir in his issue of John MacIntyre of Camus na h'Erie, s of Duncan, s of William, s of John, s of Duncan, s of William, s of John, s of Angus, s of Alexander, s of Patrick, 1st of Camus na h'Erie, younger brother of the Chief of Glenoe, so recorded at LO 1955"...

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John MacIntyre (Rev); born 1794; Min Kilmonivaig, Inverness-shire; representer of MacIntyre of Camus na h'Erie (by the death 1855 sp of his cousin Capt Peter MacIntyre, RM); married 1826 Eliza, daughter of Thomas Clark, and died 1870

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Duncan, of Camus na h'Erie; born Blarour 1831; shipowner in Leith; married Marion, daughter of John Martin, Provost of Greenock, and died 1916

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Ian, of Camus na h'Erie, WS; born 1869; educated Fettes; MP W Edinburgh; married 1896 Ida, daughter of Dr – van der Gucht

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Alastair, of Camus na h'Erie; born 1913; educated Fettes and Caius College Cambridge; served WW II, Maj Roy Scots; broadcaster BBC Scotland; matric at LO 1955; married 1939 Margery Constance Grant-Morris, and died 1979

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Ian, of Camus na h'Erie; born 1940

[colinp]

Thanks very much for all that information - I now understand what a chieftain is...

The late Ian MacIntyre (though spelt Iain) is listed on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website as the "Representative" of the Clan - maybe because the Chief lives in the USA

[G. Willis]

That's an interesting point you raise, Colin- I did find this statement (from https://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macinty2.html) rather interesting:

'The current chief is Donald Russell MacIntyre, 10th recorded chief of Glenoe[...] but is a very private person who does not wish to be involved with the Clan. We do have a chieftain, Ian Malcolm MacIntyre, 17th of Camus-na-h-Erie, who lives in Edinburgh.'

Given how big a deal all this claiming of 'clan membership' and the like is, in America particularly, MacIntyres the world over must be very cross not to be getting their money's worth out of their Chief! Handing out little trophies and plaques at 'Highland Games' held in 90-degree heat, and so on. Maybe that's the chieftain's job in his absence?

Having unfortunately not had the time to wade through the sources I found earlier (the full book by Martin MacIntyre is available here- https://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/CLANMACINTYRE2018.pdf ) I still lack full understanding of what exactly makes Ian MacIntyre's family 'chieftains'; based on some sources I found, it's just the courtesy title given to the head of a branch of the family to which the 'Chief of the Name and Arms' belongs. Does this tally with the understanding of those with more interest in, and knowledge of, the whole Scottish system?

Also, given the long-distant loss of Glenoe, if not for the position of 'Chief' which appears also to be a courtesy observed by Lord Lyon, as far as I could gather, this family would just be equivalent to all those English families 'X formerly of Y'- 'MacIntyre formerly of Glenoe'?

[dpth...@gmail.com]

I don't know whether this will be helpful, but here are two mentions of the possible differences between a chief and a chieftain.

From http://www.clankerr.org/clans.html

"Another leadership role in a clan is that of the "Clan Chieftain" who, before the 2nd Jacobite Rising, represented the Clan Chief by serving as the proprietor on clan lands and may or may not be in line of clan succession.  Tradition serves that Clan Chieftains have a strong loyalty bond to the Chief and thus are related or bear an ancestral relationship to the Clan Chief. "

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_clan_chief

" In the Scottish clan system, a chief is greater than a chieftain, a designation applied to heads of branches of a clan."

[G. Willis]

Thanks, Mr Theroff- would it perhaps be fair to say the definitions are somewhat nebulous?

Martin MacIntyre's book raises some quite interesting points: it's an updated version of the research conducted by his own father (himself American, seven generations removed from Scotland per the author's own account), who apparently was the driving force behind i) locating the 'lost' Chiefs (formerly) of Glenoe and ii) orchestrating the recognition by Lord Lyon of the MacIntyres of Glenoe. M. MacIntyre does somewhat contradict himself, I feel; on the one hand, he takes great care to legitimise the American Chiefly line by mentioning their correspondence with the Camus[etc] family, and with Lord Lyon, etc, dating back to their arrival in America, along with possession of several heirlooms (suggesting them to be more than aware of their heritage), but on the other, presents his father as having painstakingly researched until he found the rightful eighth chief, apparently unknown to the world, and proved so invaluable as provider of the (then unrecognised) Clan's history that the eighth chief not only appointed him 'Commander', but the author, on his father's death, as 'Commander-elect' (basically, it seems, second-in-command, from what I've read- this being shifted to 'Lieutenant to Glenoe' on the Clan's recognition and that of the Chief). To me there is some kind of incompatibility between these two threads of the story.

I'm entirely willing to admit that in light of some of the horror stories I've heard and read about over the years I do tend to look askance at what I believe Sir Iain Moncrieff of that Ilk, 11th Bt referred to as 'shortbread-box Scottishness', simply because in recent decades it's been blown up into this rather lucrative endeavour. As Martin MacIntyre himself writes: 'Not everyone named MacIntyre is a descendant of the first chief. Beyond the Scottish Highlands, the name could simply mean son of a carpenter. Nevertheless, the desire for ancestral origin may lead anyone named MacIntyre, or bearing an associated name, to want to be part of the extended family of Clan MacIntyre. Who would not welcome them?' With no particular imputation of avarice to be levelled at any specific individual, and in full appreciation of the long years of research undertaken by the author and his father, one nevertheless considers the realities (and potential profits) of the situation, and cannot but reply 'who indeed?' Still, 'MacIntyre of Glenoe, Chief of the Name and Arms' is recognised by Lord Lyon and appears in Burke's, so that would appear to be that! I can't however help but wonder about the (non-monetary) value, so many hundreds of years after the point at which it would have made sense, of going to such great lengths to establish a Chief so vastly removed from his heritage in years, location and lifestyle- these Chiefs have shifted from farming, to farm-equipment repair, to being auto mechanics; all perfectly respectable occupations, certainly, but one wonders what the thread is that links these evidently down-to-earth people (who despite some of the author's statements, seem to have required hand-holding by his father to get to grips with the whole thing) to the oft-romanticised Clan concept- the fact that the present Chief seemingly wants nothing at all to do with the whole situation, to the extent of ensuring that none but the barest details of his own family be included in the book, seems quite suggestive.

Perhaps the clearest illustration of this not-exactly-rarely-encountered brand of mythologising the past is that the established chiefs, per Martin MacIntyre, date from 1656 to the present, preceded by 'unnumbered documented chiefs' (i.e., MacIntyres associated with Glenoe that, surely frustratingly, simply can't be placed in any meaningful order), and then by 'legendary chiefs'(!) dating from c. 1140 to c. 1400. Good thing these 'legends' exist, to really pin the MacIntyres down at a nice early date... it occurs to me to wonder, if anyone has access to the latest Burke's Peerage, if these 'legends' grace the pedigree with their inclusion?

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Interesting points!

All I can add is that the Burke's online edition which I have has nothing before the 1600s, beginning the Lineage thus:

"Lineage: The MacIntyres of Glenoe and their cadet branch, of Camus na h'Erie descend by credible Gaelic tradition from Makarill or Maurice, n of Somerled, the 12th century progenitor of Clan Donald (see BOSVILLE MACDONALD OF SLEAT, Bt) although details of the descent before the 16th century are debatable. A continuous and documented descent can be

traced from: 

DONICH (DUNCAN) MacINTYRE; had:

DONALD, OF GLENOE; died by 1661....."

In the part I quoted in an earlier post, Burke's does name the earlier ancestors of te Camus line, but only be forename, with no other details whatsoever, making me think that it is totally undocumented and even those names may be speculative.

[G. Willis]

Ah, I see; so Burke's only allowed the 1600s onwards. Thank you for checking that! That, given their modern-day higher standards and omission of 'family traditions', carries some weight I think. The thing that always strikes me with these 'Clans' saved from the brink of oblivion is that their present, endorsed status doesn't always seem commensurate with the historical evidence; they're always SO historically notable and powerful, but for some reason there's never anything very substantial to prove they existed- at least not in the sense set in stone by their 'recognition'- until comparatively recent times, and yet from nowhere a full lineage (always with 'legendary' ancestors included, and always some vagueness in names/ dates/ etc regarding the several generations preceding the first ancestor actually categorically confirmed to exist) always seems to appear! They always have a tartan, and a motto, and a war cry, and their own staunchly upheld traditions... not with any documentation supporting much of it, of course, but 'the Clan' knows- and has always known, thank you very much, outsider!- these things to exist... But then I am, as I've said, a cynic regarding this and similar matters.

As far as I can tell, in this case the first 'Clan Chiefs' appeared in the 1600s, some kind of vague 'legendary' descent from 'Somerled, the great 12th century leader of the Scottish Gaels' (well, why not, might as well have someone eminent-sounding!) preceding them, with a few even more vaguely-identified individuals lumped in the middle, and all of this patched together sufficiently believably(?) to constitute a 'Chiefly lineage' of great antiquity. Even their residence at Glenoe (Glen Noe, whatever other variations) is shrouded in this mist of twee myth (from the Wikipedia short version): 'The original home of Clan MacIntyre is likewise the subject of conjecture... It is said that seeking fresh pastures for their cattle they were initially obstructed by a mountain spirit. After testing their perseverance and courage the spirit instructed them to make their new home where the white cow in their herd should first lie down to rest. This site became known as Glen Noe.' Hmmm. OK then! So nothing at all to account for the several hundred years prior to this, on which basis this 'Chiefly lineage' exists..? There's an awful lot of 'it is said...' and 'accounts relate that...', 'extrapolated based on...'!

I suppose my point is really, yes, they're recognised as 'Chiefs' NOW, but... why are they 'Chiefs'? Because 'MacIntyre' is a name that a lot of people have, and it makes sense that there be one focal point for their 'Clan', hitherto lacking? What makes the MacIntyres (formerly) of Glenoe different from a minor gentry family no longer possessed of their lands or, let's be honest, anything that marks them out as belonging to a different stratum of society than the next man?

[Paul Theroff]

"It is said that seeking fresh pastures for their cattle they were initially obstructed by a mountain spirit. After testing their perseverance and courage"

That made me immediately imagine the Bridgekeeper in Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "BRIDGEKEEPER: Stop! Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see."

[dpth...@gmail.com]

"It is said that seeking fresh pastures for their cattle they were initially obstructed by a mountain spirit. After testing their perseverance and courage"