Dukedom for Anne

[Guru]

In the Guardian below there is speculation that Anne might receive a title.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/12/princess-anne-takes-on-more-prominent-role-in-support-of-brother-king-charles

"While there is speculation that the Queen’s second-eldest child and only daughter may get an elevated title in addition to her title as Princess Royal, her importance in the court of Charles is assured."

Interesting, This may set a new precedent that daughters of the monarch receive a title in their own right.

Fair enough for Anne's dedication and work over the years..

There might be a double announcement for Anne and Edward.

[Richard R]

Interesting. I've been contemplating that, if The KING doesn't want to give Edinburgh to Edward, Anne could be the recipient. My main reservation is the lady herself. She's always maintained she doesn't want a title and it's difficult to believe she'd change her mind in her 70s. 'Against' is her reluctance to lumber her descendants with such a grand title - she's always been proud her children have made their own way without titles. 'For' is that it would be honouring her beloved late father. One course would be for The KING to grant her a dukedom for life. There is precedence for this.

The KING could of course promote his brother to the dukedom of WESSEX. And if the remainder was to the children in order of age, regardless of sex, we could then see a Duchess of Wessex and 2nd Earl of Wessex & Forfar (perhaps using just the second title to avoid confusion) in the fullness of time.

I sincerely hope this reign will see the long overdue innovation of granting any future hereditary (ANY) with gender blend remainders: allowing any legitimate children to succeed in order of age of birth, regardless of sex.

[Observer]

It would be very untidy to deliberately set up a situation in which there would eventually be two Wessex titles held by different people.

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

I hope there will be Coronation Peerages for those within the family and extended family:

Hopefully, as mention, Anne for a Dukedom; (This will give her children styles); Edward upgrade or new Dukedom of Edinburgh; If Princess Beatrice rise within the Royal family and maybe she or her husband, given a Peerage..... I suggest Eugenie's husband also receive a Peerage as well.

The Parker Bowles style as Lord and Lady to both children of the Queen Consort or a peerage. Maybe also the Middletons rise to a peerage as well.

Fingers crossed and wait and see.

[marquess]

I think that Andrew's daughters might both be made countess in their own right rather than bestow honours on their husbands, who may in the future divorce. As to Ann, surely her children are so well established in the world now that any title is not likely to make much difference to their lives. Cornation Life Peergaes would hardly be much of a  thing to toal about when the government hands them out like toffee.

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

100% right.. a few titles for the coronation won't make much difference, while we wait for Johnson's Peerages looooong list coming soon.

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Why would The Princess Royal be granted a Dukedom?  Capt Mark Phillips & The Princess made a decision when they got married to turn down any honours and the Phillips family have lived happily without.... their children are more than happy living fairly private lives unburdened by status given by a title (Zara for example has a very successful career as an equestrian and gained her MBE in her own right for her sporting activities) and although I agree that The Princess' loyal devotion and duty should be rewarded - I cannot see that in 2022, the unusual grant of a Dukedom would happen.  Sorry but it just wont happen.

I am sure The King will indeed grant his brother the Dukedom of Edinburgh, as agreed prior to the Coronation - so that he is a Royal Duke. 

Not being argumentative - but all these ideas of peerages for the husbands of Princesses Beatrice, Eugenie, Camilla's children and the Middletons etc etc... would of course probably happen in 1932, when there was little "criticism" of the Royal Family and the honours system, but its fanciful to think that in 2022, this would happen.  Can you imagine the intense criticism of "cronyism" etc etc... it would make a mockery of the whole honours system.  A title for the Parker Bowles children?  Really?  Ok their mother is The Queen Consort, but what would the press make of that?  Sorry but it would inflame a great deal of anger.  The King will be trying to avoid controversy at every stage.  As much I would love to see them all with honours etc, I think you will find that they will be very sparingly issued (sadly).  I'm afraid we live in very different times. 

[Peter FitzGerald]

It has been widely reported for some years that the King is in favour of a 'slimmed down' Royal Family, with fewer (and potentially lower-ranking) peerages being one of the suggested manifestations of that. I think it is unlikely that he will start his reign by doling them out left, right and centre. In any event, although it is not hereditary, Princess Anne's existing title as Princess Royal is far more prestigious than any peerage (except those held by the heir apparent), so it is difficult to see what would be gained by giving her a dukedom. If titles for her children are desired, and it has always been indicated that this is not the case, an earldom for Admiral Laurence would be far more likely.

[malcolm davies]

I agree that the Princess Royal would be very suitable as a duke(or rather a duchess).

However:

1.If the title were to be inherited by her son Peter(as it normally would be),he would not have the means to live in the style of a duke.In the past,offers have been declined for this reason(see my post in regard to the 5th Marquess of Lansdowne).In the reign of Richard III,George Nevill was deprived of the Dukedom of Bedford for that very reason(his creation was for the purpose of a marriage to Elizabeth of York which never took place-she married Henry VII instead).

2.The intention of the creation of Princess Anne as Princess Royal was undoubtedly intended as honouring her in the same way as her brothers were honoured with their titles.

It should be remembered that the late Queen was entirely conservative in relation to the position of women and peerages.

She created no special remainders to peerages in her time that enabled women to succeed ad infinitum and no women were admitted to the higher orders of chivalry until the last third of her reign.The peerages granted to her sons are in male tail only.

[colinp]

I agree that it is unlikely the Princess Royal will be offered a dukedom - I think it far more likely she will receive some other mark of distinction such as being appointed to the Privy Council (though this is not the honour it was) or receiving the Royal Victorian Chain (she is Grand Master of the RVO).

Also I think it more likely that any future Royal Dukedoms will be granted for life so they don't go outside the immediate Royal Family and this may be the case if, as I think is likely, the Dukedom of Edinburgh is conferred on the Earl of Wessex.  This will be similar to the Swedish system perhaps

I have a feeling that, apart from the Earl of Wessex and possibly the Princess Royal, King Charles (and a future King William) may decide not to confer dukedoms or other peerages on members of the Royal Family in the future and the children of the Prince of Wales will remain princes and princesses (which is what I believe Queen Victoria preferred) though with, again possibly, the grandchildren of the Sovereign being granted courtesy titles of children of a duke (similar to the children of Prince Michael of Kent) with consequent changes in the relevant Letters Patent. In which case I would expect that to apply to the children of both sons and daughters of the Sovereign.  I suppose though that if the Princess Royal's children can get on in their non-royal lives without titles then why shouldn't other grandchildren of the Sovereign given that, as it seems likely, they will not (except children of the PoW) be carrying out royal duties in a "slimmed down Monarchy" so beloved of the press and the BBC though maybe not quite so beloved when there is a shortage of "Royals" to carry out such duties when, no doubt,  the same press and BBC will be the first to complain.

Incidentally there are two Grand Masterships of Orders of Chivalry now vacant - the Order of the British Empire following the death of Prince Philip last year and the Order of the Bath following the accession of King Charles.  Maybe the PoW will take the Bath following in the footsteps of his father and Queen Camilla will take the British Empire following in the footsteps of Queen Mary who was Grand Master 1936-1953.  Then I would imagine the Earl of Wessex would take the Order of St Michael and St George when that falls vacant.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

I can't imagine King Charles III creating any new peerages (except  maybe  that promised dukedom for Prince Edward) for the foreseeable  future, especially after the Sussex disaster.

Brooke

[malcolm davies]

Colinp,

            The only life peerages that can be created are under the Life Peerages Act in the degree of Baron only.

To create a peerage of a higher degree for life would require a special remainder to the Sovereign before heirs in tail male,achieving extinction by merger on the death of the person so created,or new legislation.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

While we are discussing the creation of possible peerages, what about the chances of 2 dukes-- York and Sussex-- being stripped of theirs?

I know it's a longshot for both (an act of Parliament being needed), but now, without the Queen on the throne, have the odds increased?

From what I've read, Prince Andrew seems to be pretty unpopular, and was protected by his mother.  As for Prince Harry, I think the jury may still be out, depending on what is that upcoming book of his.

Thanks.

Brooke

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

In a word - NO.  There is more chance of me becoming the next Pope (and Im not even a Catholic!)

Seriously though.... whereas I think there should be a mechanism to remove a Peerage (not in these cases) - but the odds have not changed, as it will not happen.  As you so rightly say, legislation will need to be introduced and apart from the fact that Parliamentary time is so limited (they have more important things to discuss like the cost of living crisis - with a new Prime Minister who will want to sweeten up the electorate before the next General Election),  and no one will want MPs and Peers discussing the private (or rather non-private) life of members of the Royal Family, being free to speak under Parliamentary privilege - especially at a time with the RF and The King are under the closest of scrutiny. 

These comments about honours and peerages - it just wont happen sadly.  Think the current media phrase is "the optics looks bad"...  The King will want to make as little controversial grants of honours and peerages at the start of his reign - at the moment, both he and the QC have a great deal of public sympathy and support.... I would hate to see that put at risk.

Now The Duke of York's last real ally has passed away, he is going to find it very difficult to stage any form of "come back".  Both The King and The PoW are apparently known to want the DoY to scuttle away and keep his head down.  Now perhaps he has 2 corgis to look after, perhaps that should indeed be his future - in private at The Royal Lodge.  I read that the late Queen gave him a hefty amount of money recently (not just to pay off the court case) but also to ensure that his financial future was secure, as she obviously knew that The King and the PoW are not in his fan club.

[malcolm davies]

Brooke,in my opinion, none.

Why? Because they have not committed a serious crime.Remember the 4th Earl Ferrers who murdered his steward?There was no attempt to deprive his successors to the title.

The only cases relate to treason either by attainder or under the Titles Deprivation Act.Attainder has been abolished.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thanks, lordmountbattenofburma and malcolm, for your replies.

I would thought it unlikely,  but you both confirmed my thought.  

Thanks again.

Brooke

[Guru]

What about Duchess of Inverness for Anne?

I believe that title is free?

[Peter FitzGerald]

It is not - the Duke of York is Earl of Inverness.

[John Horton]

"... a "slimmed down Monarchy" so beloved of the press and the BBC though maybe not quite so beloved when there is a shortage of "Royals" to carry out such duties when, no doubt,  the same press and BBC will be the first to complain."

It is taking a while for the media to spot this. I suspect it will only become apparent as the Gloucester and Kent families (which together have seven Royal Highnesses) age and are no longer seen in public.

---

From: peerag...@googlegroups.com <peerag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of colinp <colina...@hotmail.com>
Sent: 13 September 2022 2:32 PM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dukedom for Anne

 

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[BREMENMURRAY]

The Duchess of Gloucester at 76 is the youngest and the Duchess of Kent at nearly 90 the oldest of the Kents and Gloucester's. Even without a slimmed down monarchy their capacity for extensive public engagements is receding. Much mention of the realm countries in recent days but how will just a small handful in a slimmed down monarchy cope with vacant patronages in the UK  as well as visits to the realms. The King of Norway and the Queen of Denmark with just over five million subjects each are likely to have more members of their families working. It is  almost as if we are willing the day to come when all the realms are republics along with Scotland and a united Ireland leaving the King of just England and Wales

[Guru]

What about Duke of Ross, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich?

Ross being a historic Scottish royal title.

I think that Anne would be proud of her son Peter being known as Earl of Merioneth, one of her father's titles. 

[Uwe Schollmeyer]

I wonder whether the Princess Royal is as fluent in German as the late Duke of Edinburgh and as King Charles III are/were. If so she (as a keen horesrider) would find that title quite amusing or in the worst case even annoying. The german term "Ross" is a little old-fashioned for horse and is also used e.g. in phrases such as ger.: Ross und Reiter benennen = engl.: to name names.