Heir to the Earldom of Clancarty?

[Thackery Earwicket]

I know this has been done before, but I was wondering who is in direct line to the title, after the earl, if at all known? I know they have a daughter, Lady Rowena, but no sons.

[Turenne]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 6:06:44 PM UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

I know this has been done before, but I was wondering who is in direct line to the title, after the earl, if at all known? I know they have a daughter, Lady Rowena, but no sons.

There is no heir to the earldom or the Marquessate of Heusden.

RL 

[Thackery Earwicket]

Thank you for your reply, I thought that there were Le Poer Trench's in Australie,etc...? maybe I was completely wrong.

Lets just hope that the Hereditary Peerages Bill, passes with due haste, or some other bill, I know most of us would hate to see these peerages be destroyed forever, but mostly because this title because the earls were originally from my area and part of our local history, their seat is now my school.

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 6:06:44 PM UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

[Turenne]

You may be right:

 1. 1st Earl of Clancarty

2. Hon. Charles Le Poer Trench

3. Henry Luke Le Poer Trench

4. Frederick Augustus Le Poer Trench (d 1927) of Lismore, New South Wales, married 1909 Marie May Le Poer Trench (d 1963)

5. Frederick Augustus Le Poer Trench (1921-1996), married 1948 (Sydney NSW) Margaret Coralie Ruddle King

6. Mark Frederick Le Poer Trench (The Hon. Mr Justice Le Poer Trench, Family Court of Australia), married 2002 Emily Jane Hibbert

7. Harry Le Poer Trench, born 2006

also....

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/peerage-news/Cz6P9KmWeqQ

RL

[Turenne]

A friend sent me the following:

I am pretty sure that there are a number of Le Poer Trenches in New South Wales, descendants of Frederick Augustus (d 1927), son of Maj-Gen Henry Luke (Indian Army), son of the Hon. Charles le Poer Trench, a younger son of the 1st Earl.  F.A. Le Poer Trench's eldest son, John Frederick Le Poer Trench, died in 1984 at Lismore, NSW. 

 Maj-Gen Henry Luke also had an older brother, The Hon. Robert Le Poer Trench, QC (c1812-1893), sometime Attorney-General for Victoria [Australia] who seems to have left two sons, Robert (died NSW, 1908) and Henry.  Robert at least left issue -- it was his daughter, Marie (d 1963) who married her cousin F.A. Le Poer Trench in Sydney in 1909.  I haven't yet tried to track Robert's issue to the current day -- if they exist in the male line, then they would take precedence of Mr Justice Le Poer Trench and his son(s).

RL

[marquess]

Well lets hope that Debretts or Burkes get onto this, it is excellent news if the earldom can continue beyond the present earl.

[Michael Rhodes]

The Countess of Clancarty is campaigning to see her daughter inherit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/10052614/We-want-girls-to-inherit-titles-aristocrats-say.html

[Thackery Earwicket]

I hope that the Countess' efforts succeed in this endeavor to make the peerage non-preference primogeniture, and I know a lot of people on this site have different views on this but that's my opinion, and in this peerage, to keep the title of Marquess of Heusden in the family, which will become extinct upon the death of the current earl if his daughter doesn't succeed, and the title goes to the descendants of the first earl. As well as this I'd prefer to see the title go direct line instead of reverting to another side of the family.

I'd like to thank the posters for informing me on this topic, and if the countess fails, then I truly hope that, as said above, that Debretts and Burkes take this into account.

NC

[Michael Rhodes]

The private members bill in parliament is only concerned with titles in the peerage of England, Scotland,Ireland, GB and the UK. The title Marquess of Heusden falls outside this criteria.

[Thackery Earwicket]

I have to bow my head and be very quiet when talking about peerages other than british. I thought that the title was tied to the earldom, or does it follow primgeniture? and whats the story with it?

[Michael Rhodes]

On Monday, 13 May 2013 12:32:40 UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

I have to bow my head and be very quiet when talking about peerages other than british. I thought that the title was tied to the earldom, or does it follow primgeniture? and whats the story with it?

The 2nd Earl of Clancarty, Ambassador to The Hague, was created Marquess of Heusden by the King of the Netherlands in 1818, having obtained permission to accept the honour. I am unsure as to whether this title can only pass to descendants of the 2nd Earl.

[Thackery Earwicket]

There is no precedence for this, as there is no other title created after the first holder of a dutch title. The only other title with two titles is the Duke of Wellington with the title Prince of Waterloo. While the 2nd earl was the one created Marquess.

[Mary-Ann]

Apparently Robert LE POER TRENCH (c1812-1895) father of Robert LE POER
TRENCH (1860-1908) didn't marry the mothers of his children, or if he
did it was after they were born.

Some info may be found here:
http://www.myheritage.com/person-1000013_184764342_184764342/robert-le-poertrench

> >https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/peerage-new...

[Turenne]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 1:04:53 PM UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

There is no precedence for this, as there is no other title created after the first holder of a dutch title. The only other title with two titles is the Duke of Wellington with the title Prince of Waterloo. While the 2nd earl was the one created Marquess.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but the current Earl of Portland is also Baron Bentinck.

RL

[Thackery Earwicket]

Oh, sorry, I didn't know about the Earls of Portland, I knew they were counts of the HRE but not dutch nobility. 

And in reference to the other post (I find this forum hard to use when quoting, so I just make new statements ) so that removes some more heirs to the title

[Turenne]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 4:48:59 PM UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

Oh, sorry, I didn't know about the Earls of Portland, I knew they were counts of the HRE but not dutch nobility. 

And in reference to the other post (I find this forum hard to use when quoting, so I just make new statements ) so that removes some more heirs to the title

Just to add; Lord Reay is also Baron Mackay in The Netherlands, and the Earl of Albermarle may or may not be Lord of Voorst and Baron of Keppel. I'll find out if you like; but it's a bit of a fag!

RL

[Thackery Earwicket]

No its okay, I trust you :D and a fag?

[Turenne]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 7:36:07 PM UTC+1, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

No its okay, I trust you :D and a fag?

Sorry; not a cigarette; but an abbrv. of fagged out/knackered...:) 

A friend just sent the following which may be of interest:

" I agree that the sons of Robert Le Poer Trench of Ballarat were illegitimate.  Their mother, Meta nee Breuner, died in Victoria in 1912 and was registered as "Meta Seihl" -- she was the widow of Adolphe Siehl [sic], a market gardener, who died in Victoria in 1857.  I cannot find birth registrations for most of the children, but Frances Mary (1862-1876) was registered at Ballarat East as "Frances Mary Breuner".  I have traced the descendants of Robert Le Poer Trench to within the past decade, but clearly they are not in remainder to the Irish earldom.

This means that the next heir to the current Earl is whichever Australian Le Poer Trench is the heir male of the late Frederick Augustus Le Poer Trench of Lismore (d 1927) -- I think it is Mr Justice Le Poer Trench, but that is assuming that his uncle, FA's elder son John Frederick Le Poer Trench did not himself have a son."

"It should be noted that had the patent allowed for female heirs or been otherwise gender-blind, the 9th Earl would never have inherited in the first place, since his uncle the 6th Earl left three daughters of his own at his death in 1971...." 

Why should the descendants of Frederick Augustus Le Poer Trench be disinherited because of misplaced political correctness?

Richard L

 

[Michael Rhodes]

Viscount Bridport is the Duke of Bronte

 

[Thackery Earwicket]

Thank you. Very helpful. Where do you get all these very knowledgeable friends from...:)

In regards to disinheritance of the Australian Le Poer Trenchs, I don't think you could call it a disinheritance, seeing as they more than likely never expected to inherit, being several generations from the title. Also why shouldn't Lady Rowena inherit her fathers titles, why shouldnt those women have inherited their fathers titles. Its not as if the title comes with lands or estates, just like many other titles which no longer have lands, a family legacy from father to daughter, mother to daughter. 

The amount of high titles that were destroyed for want of a male heir; The Dukedom of Newcastle, The Dukedom of Portland, The Earls Fitzwilliam, even recent titles to honour the bearer, Earl Kitchener. And though you will say, if the first lord wanted it to continue til worlds end, why not put it into the letters patent, but what man wants to show that he couldn't sire a son (historically), and no one thinks their children will fail in this duty either.

Sorry if I sounded angry, or if I went off on a tangent...

[Thackery Earwicket]

And The Dukedom of Bronte is in the peerage of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies

[marquess]

Let us not forget as has been mentioned here before, that each hereditary peer is heir of the original grantee, therefore if you want to change the laws of succession then you need to do it in such a way that the original grantee's heirs general or heirs whatever inherit rather than the issue of the current holder who would otherwise not succeed were it not for the alteration in the succession laws.

On Sunday, May 12, 2013 12:06:44 AM UTC+7, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

[Thackery Earwicket]

So you would have it, that if this were to happen, that any current peer could lose their titles to the those who might have got them if this law was enacted at the time that the letters patent's were made? 

Or am I wrong?

[marquess]

The Sackville peerage case threw out the possible notion that a man living and enjoying a peerage should lose it to another due to a remainder. No one who has a peerage now should be deprived of it, but if you are going to deprive the next heir (ha or hp) then the peerage should go to the heirs of the original grantees based upon the new path of succession. It would be unfair for you to say that your daughter should inherit because you have no sons but the second earl left 3 daughters and was succeeded by his brother and you happen to be the son of the brother and the current holder of the peerage. The legislation must be retrospective in order to be fair, if that is even the right word to use.

On Sunday, May 12, 2013 12:06:44 AM UTC+7, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

[Thackery Earwicket]

and that is why i believe it is on a petition basis, it doesnt just automatically change the rules like in spain, a peer must petition whoever, after due consideration, just like a man with 7 daughter and one teenage son will not just jump into a decision to give the title to the eldest. Strife is not worth it. it should truly only be done in times where there are no remaining male heirs left like E Kitchener or M Bristol(not sure of bristol) and in this case E Clancarty, where the current holders probably dont have my honourable friends resourses to study their ancestry and find heirs and so in trying to prevent this loss jump to battle stations to try and save it

[marquess]

It might perhaps be best that if such legislation is passed current peerages holders are given a choice as to whether they will follow the new legislation or no; but once the new path has been taken the peerage must continue in such a manner forever hereafter so to speak.

On Sunday, May 12, 2013 12:06:44 AM UTC+7, Thackery Earwicket wrote:

[Thackery Earwicket]

nobody wants to be told what to do, or how their children will inherit their property or title.That is why it must be voluntary so as to not ruffle too many feathers.

[Shinjinee]

Thanks for the update, Turenne.  I had forgotten about our conversation re the Clancarty heirs in Australia, after my computer crashed.  So, Mr Justice Le Poer Trench is probably the future Earl of Clancarty, but is unlikely to claim his title of course, as we discussed.  (So the earldom will be dormant, not extinct).

Shinjinee
(one of the less knowledgeable friends, occasionally with snippets of information)

[marquess]

Are these people listed in Burke's or Debretts? I know that the former can sometimes be more informative than than the latter. It would be nice if we could all peruse over the genealogical tree. Perhaps if the Mr Justice Trench is not interested in the title one of his sons might be, if indeed there isn't a more senior line. Though these things cost a lot of money to prove these days; I don't know what the procedure is for and Irish Peerage? Perhaps this one will join the likes of Cavan, Winterton, and Doneraille (though the current St.Legers have no right to the title according to Massingbergs 'Families of Great Britain and Ireland' haven't read the book for twenty years so might have misquoted the title. Red book with that duke of Marlborough who married the Vanderbilt heiress on the cover) 

[Dapifer de Truchsess]

Does anyone have any trace as to what connection the photographer Michael Le Poer Trench is to the Clancarty Trenchs. He is Australian, so I presume he is as above connected either as a descendant of an illegitimate child of Robert of Ballarat or of Frederick Augustus of Lismore. 

Him and his partner, Sir Cameron Mackintosh own Stavordale Priory and the Nevis estate in Scotland, which is as close to landed gentry as this surname or peerage shall see in the future. 

[Shinjinee Sen]

Michael Alexander Le Poer Trench

Born May 1959 in Australia

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/4uYI6gHQP8BJJPuZqp8fADL8pYk/appointments

No other information, sorry. I noticed him two years ago (related to a video about Les Miserables) but the search back then also had no information on his background.

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[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

In regards to Sir Cameron Mackintosh, born in 1946, to Ian Robert Mackintosh and Diana Gladys Tonna. Can anyone help with when Mackintosh and Tonna married and if there is any details of Tonna's parents ?

Much appreciated and Thank you in advance.