Use of OBE and MBE

[DC]

Hi

Happy New Year to you.

This may not be the right forum to ask this question but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere and wondered if you can please help.

A colleague of mine would like to know if one can keep an MBE with their name even though they have just been awarded an OBE. For example, Lady Jane Doe, MBE has been awarded an OBE in the New Years Honours List. 

Which is correct: Lady Jane Doe, OBE, MBE (I'm incline to say this because the honour is given on two separate occasions) or Lady Jane Doe, OBE (thinking that OBE precedes the MBE therefore drop the MBE)?

Many thanks for your help!

Regards

Dominic

[Peter FitzGerald]

Happy new year Dominic.

 

One is *appointed* an MBE or OBE, not *awarded* one. The Order of the British Empire is an order of chivalry with various grades of membership, and one is appointed to one of those grades. (This becomes obvious if you spell them out - "Joe Bloggs was awarded a Member of the Order of the British Empire" clearly isn't right.)

 

On that basis, when a person who is already an MBE becomes an OBE, they are being promoted within the Order of the British Empire, and therefore cease to hold the lower grade. They were a Member, and now they are an Officer.

 

The upshot of that is that only the higher abbreviation is appropriate - using both would be akin to a military officer calling himself "Major Captain Lieutenant Second Lieutenant Smith".

 

Hope that helps.

 

Peter

[John Horton]

From: peerag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:peerag...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DC
Sent: 08 January 2014 12:22
To: peerag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Use of OBE and MBE

 

This may not be the right forum to ask this question but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere and wondered if you can please help.

 

A colleague of mine would like to know if one can keep an MBE with their name even though they have just been awarded an OBE. For example, Lady Jane Doe, MBE has been awarded an OBE in the New Years Honours List. 

 

Which is correct: Lady Jane Doe, OBE, MBE (I'm incline to say this because the honour is given on two separate occasions) or Lady Jane Doe, OBE (thinking that OBE precedes the MBE therefore drop the MBE)?

 

The example quoted is a promotion (from Member to Officer) so the correct thing to do is to use O.B.E. only.

 

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[ThomasFoolery]

I know I've seen older cases of an individual being appointed to each branch of the Order.  Say, an MBE in the Civil Division and a CBE in the Military Division.  Is this still possible, and how do post nominals/insignia/etc work?  I'm pretty sure I've seen them listed doubly of old.

[John Horton]

I believe this practice started in the Order of the Bath. (I recall once seeing a specific reference to the individual who asked for permission to do it – in Heywood’s book possibly.) I have subsequently seen a more general reference to it taking place in the Order of the British Empire too.

 

Quite how one indicates it, I don’t know. Perhaps with “(civ.)” or “(mil.)” after the relevant initials; perhaps just by listing the relevant initials and assuming the reader is sufficiently well informed to know what the implication is.

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[Jonathan]

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:32:44 PM UTC, john....@nottingham.ac.uk wrote:

I believe this practice started in the Order of the Bath. (I recall once seeing a specific reference to the individual who asked for permission to do it – in Heywood’s book possibly.) I have subsequently seen a more general reference to it taking place in the Order of the British Empire too.

 

Quite how one indicates it, I don’t know. Perhaps with “(civ.)” or “(mil.)” after the relevant initials; perhaps just by listing the relevant initials and assuming the reader is sufficiently well informed to know what the implication is.

One example is Dame Kelly Holmes, DBE, MBE(Mil.) as Wikipedia has it. Apparently she says in her autobiography that she gets to keep both insignia.

[John Horton]

From: peerag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:peerag...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Sent: 08 January 2014 16:43

To: peerag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Use of OBE and MBE

… and ordinarily she would return the insignia of the junior rank on being promoted.

[Richard R]

And, DC, I shouldn't feel too concerned about using the term awarded, as it & award are used 6 times in an article all about the British Empire order on the British Monarchy's official website (see attached link).

 

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderoftheBritishEmpire.aspx

[ThomasFoolery]

Does anyone know which Division members of the Royal Family (the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen Mother, Princess Alice, etc.)  are appointed to?  Rarely see them wearing the insignia.  Does Philip, as grandmaster, sort of have both?

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 7:21:50 AM UTC-5, DC wrote:

[Peter FitzGerald]

It doesn't use them in the sense of "awarded an MBE", though.

 

Clearly membership (at whatever grade) of the Order of the British Empire is an award, and is awarded to people, but what they are awarded is membership (and the insignia), not the letters signifying membership.

[Richard R]

I accept what you're saying Peter, but I think when the article states "Many people who have been AWARDED an honour [*] from overseas attend these services, and each person attending wears their award. ", then it's likely people might unknowingly mis-use the word themselves

*[ie could have used 'appointed to the order', as the article is about the OBE, not orders in general]

[malcolm davies]

Dominic,

              Peter Fitzgerald's comment is correct.Persons are appointed to the order and then promoted in grade.They have only one membership and should use the grade to which they have been promoted to.The statutes of the order can be found here:

http://digital.slv.vic.gov.au/view/action/singleViewer.do?dvs=1389307251229~540&locale=en_AU&metadata_object_ratio=10&show_metadata=true&preferred_usage_type=VIEW_MAIN&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

[William]

Wikipedia is not infallible. Peter F is.