VON SASSE / Minogue engagement

[Richard R]

From the Telegraph of 20 Feb 2016: Mr J.S. von Sasse and Miss K.A. Minogue - The engagement is announced between Joshua, son of the late Dominic Sasse and of Mary Heale (née Macauley), of Herefordshire, and Kylie, eldest daughter of Ronald and Carol Minogue, of Melbourne, Australia.

Joshua Seymour VON SASSE (b 1987), actor, s of the poet Dominic SASSE (d 1992) and Mary Rosalind MACAULEY (b 1953, now Mrs Jonathan Heale) d of William Perine MACAULEY (d 1990) and Hon Diana Phyllis BERRY (b 1924) d of 1st Viscount CAMROSE (1879-1954) and Agnes CORNS (d 1962).

Kylie Ann OBE (b 1968), singer and entertainer, d of Ronald Charles MINOGUE (5th gen. Australian, family originally from Ireland) & Carol Ann JONES from Maesteg, Wales.

[G. Willis]

Does anybody have any insight into the 'von'? His father seems to have been simply 'Sasse' (according to Debrett, and generally), and a search for Joshua himself gives results only as the same.

EDIT: Dominic, given the birth year provided in his obituary and elsewhere, seems to be the Dominic R. Sasse b. 1955, mother Rider; in 1949, Frederick H. Sasse m. Deirdre I. S. Rider (perhaps that's what the 'R' stands for? No other source indicates Dominic Sasse as having a middle name). Frederick Sasse was apparently a Gurkha officer, according to the same Independent obit; Gazette mentions of a man by this name (date 1912-15) indicate captaincy in the East Yorkshire Regt, but perhaps, given the dates, not the same individual? 

EDIT 2: Additional online sources indicate Capt. Frederick Hugh Sasse of the East Yorks Regt, son of Frederick Charles and Anna Sasse of Redcliffe Sq., South Kensington, as having been k.i.a. in 1915 aged 28, so although there's possibly some connection, it's not the same fellow; at any rate we can see there's no completely clear sign of a justification for a 'von', at least in the preceding couple of generations.

[Richard R]

I've taken the engagement notice's spelling of course. Do any other posters feel qualified to pronounce either way? Is the use of 'von' offiicially policed in any way in the 21st century?

[Netty]

I haven't been able to find anything about a noble family called "von Sasse". The use of "von" isn't forbidden, but would normally indicate noble descend (not always, but often - apart from some families), in Austria it is still forbidden to use it ...

There only is a Dutch noble family "Van Sasse van Ysselt", but can't find any trace from them to the groom either.

[G. Willis]

Well, the entitlement to/ details of 'von' aside (thanks for the information, Netty!), for completeness's sake/ reference of anyone who might be interested:

The Frederick Hugh Sasse, Gurkha officer is presumably he- a Lieutenant in the 1/5 Royal Gurkha Rifles, Frontier Force- whose M.C. was announced in the Gazette of 23 August 1945; the only other Frederick Hugh Sasse for whom I could find a record was born 1924 at Lichfield, Staffordshire, mother's surname 'Herman', and died in 1987 at Kensington/ Chelsea. I would hazard a tentative guess that he is the same man referred to as 'a prominent Lloyd's underwriter' who, as part of a syndicate, apparently sued a Brazilian reinsurance company in 1978 (details of which can seemingly be found in many places online), but given the lack of details one avoids stating anything with certainty. Additionally, the name and location might indicate a relationship with the other F. H. Sasse who d. 1915; perhaps a nephew or such, in which case the name is still given only as 'Sasse' for Frederick Charles of Redcliffe Square, as above, regarding whom I can't find anything useful at present.

EDIT: ethnicelebs.com/joshua-sasse - this source (the credentials of which I have no idea whatever, but the 'Herman/ Herrmann' detail augurs well) gives Lt F. H. Sasse's father as Cecil Duncan Sasse (b. 1892, a Lt-Col in the Australian Army it seems, who got a D.S.O.) and his mother as Zara Herrmann, Cecil being another son of Frederick Charles and Anna Sasse of Redcliffe Square (see above). Frederick Charles Sasse's father was apparently Frederick Richard Sasse, born in Belgium (apparently of the Foreign Office, and son of a Richard Sasse, as per the Gentleman's Magazine). How this factors into anything regarding the use of 'von'- if at all- I have no idea.

Just for future reference, should it ever become necessary.

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

The family has always been Sasse, ever since the first, Richard, from Belgium, or thereabouts. Mary Downes, wife of John Manners, daughter of Valentine Sasse and George Gilbert Downes, mentioned they might have been Barons, had a cousin Sasse who was very successful in the equine world, some 40 years ago. The Sasse family were solidly respectable middle class in the 19th century, providing middle management for the Foreign office and banks- Lloyds and fortuitous marriages elevated them to the upper-middle class. There is a possibility though that the wife of Frederick Charles Sasse, Anna Grant, may have had more illustrious forebears. She was the daughter of Lt colonel Hugh Grant of the Bengal service and niece of Major-General James Grant. The latter appears on her marriage as a witness. I do know that Mary Manners, nee Downes, was a relation of my mother's through the Grants.

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

Should any of you require a pedigree of the family, from Frederick richard Sasse, I can provide it.

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

It certainly is in Europe, and whatever you call yourself, your passport will reveal the truth! It is very difficult to change a surname officially, as it will always have 'previously known as' after the 'new' name on legal documents.

[Peter de Loriol Chandieu]

The use of von and 'de; does not denote nobility. Only the coat of arms, in Europe, with a nobiliary helm denotes it. In the UK, these predicates mean nothing unless the College of Arms has registered them, along with a Royal warrant or Royal assent. 

On Saturday, 20 February 2016 08:20:38 UTC, Richard R wrote:

[G. Willis]

Many thanks; if you have the details to hand, I would certainly appreciate being able to take a look.