Some Debrett's updates

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Glad to report that at least some of the events first posted here, have finally been included on the Debrett's website.

The Kirkwood barony now reflects the 4th Baron's succession.  However, the hp is still shown as David (b. 1945), instead of his son Douglas James (b. 1975)

The Aird baronetcy now reflects the succession of Sir James as the 5th Bt.

The Strathspey barony now reflects the succession of the 7th Baron and the fact that the succession is to the baronetcy only.

The Inchiquin barony succession of the 19th Baron is shown as well.

Among the key  updates still missing, first noted here:

Napier of Magdala-- The birth of a "likely" son for James Robert Napier, Harry Thomas (b. 2014);

Brodie-- The death of the 5th Bt. and succession.

Stafford-- The birth of a son for the Hon. Toby, Ned Douglas in 2021.

Strathmore & Kinghorne-- The birth of a son and heir for Hon. John, himself the heir to the present Earl.

Harewood-- The birth of a son and heir for Viscount Lascelles, Kit Moon William in 2023.

Brooke

[Patricia Light]

Yes Debretts seem to be very slow in their updates. After the coronation i e-mailed them to ask if my over 20 messages were still valid & got a rather unhelpful e-mail back saying that the family notices come first i.e. newspaper announcements (understandable) & that they have received 'malicious' info with regard to some updates. Make of that what you will, but i got the impression that although the marvelous people on this forum have done a lot of the research they still have to check (fair enough) but some of the messages i sent are months & months old. They a putting a hold on any of our messages, as they are a small team& need to check if they are valid, but some of my updates come from Who's Who Online which have never been updated (i.e. a 2nd son for Baron Hazlerigg, although it does not name the 2nd son it does record that their is a 2nd son in Who's Who so why are they not recording his birth) Also they don't seem to include the grandchildren when mentioned in an obituary like Baron Inchquin,( Conn & Jack )his grandsons, but no mention of them on the update, is just one example of this. Also if two families are connected why not connect them both at the same time?

Has anyone else found Debretts frustrating?

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Patricia, 

Frustration is an understatement.  Information like this has never been so readily available, so quickly.  I certainly understand the need for them to do due diligence and make sure the information is accurate, but their non-actions or very slow reactions are puzzling.  It is particularly annoying when, for example, the death or a peer/baronet, or birth of an heir apparent is involved.

All I can say is thank goodness for this group!

Brooke

[Henry W]

Of note, a number of updates I posted about the WINNINGTON baronets have now been incorporated into the Debrett's database.  I had compiled a list of links to posts on our forum for them - some of them significantly pre-dated my April 2023 posts - and sent it in, so it took about 6 weeks? (though it maybe took a week before I sent them the list.

They do seem to process more recent events quickly - my post of the death of Hon Cynthia MACKAY on 15 Apr 2023 (she died 29 Mar 2023) was updated on the database within a few days (I think 2). It was pure luck that I came across it so soon after her death - periodically I do speculative searches for those on the centenarian lists.  Older events often seem to take a lot longer.

I do understand our collective frustrations, though I am bit understanding of their need for care:

- I confess I once made a mistake and posted erroneous information about the OHLSON baronets which I eventually realised when checking Debrett's  (see https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news/c/0upw1goyZuo/m/om0IeaTwBAAJ)  and saw a death - I had been wondering for a while why a future heir I thought I found was not getting listed (interestingly the Kershaw list DID seem to reflect the heir, as they removed an A status). Its a shame they won't engage with us more, even if only privately, if they think we've made a mistake.

- A few times I see posts that are poorly sourced and it is difficult to trace where the poster got information from.  Richard R and Colin P are very good - they always make clear the source - whether that be a citation of "The Times of 7 June 2023", a "GRO search" or via a direct link to a space online.  I would encourage all posters to make sources clear.

- Where posters rely on Ancestry member trees (or other similar sites), they really need to make that explicitly clear (i.e. cite an "Ancestry member tree", not just "Ancestry").  These need to be very carefully checked against primary sources and far too often erroneous information is copied between trees which perpetuates falsehoods.

[Patricia Light]

DBP now has updated Napier of Magdala to show Harry b.2014

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Now, hopefully, at some point, we will see them update Strathmore and Kinghorne to show the birth of Albermarle earlier this year.

Brooke

[Patricia Light]

I wonder why potential heirs to titles Earl of Harewood (Hon Kit) & Earl of Strathmore & Kinghorne (Albemarle) have not been updated & yet the Earl of Mansfield & Mansfield potential heir (Hon Helier) were shown immediately, i don't understand their reasoning as the good people who post here have done all the work. Yes, i get they have to check the entries are correct but it does seem a long time.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Patricia,

I agree with you 100%.  

You, Richard, colinp and so many others that post here do all of the hard work.  I can understand DB needs to check, but you always cite your sources.

Our frustrations never end with this, but those of us in this group thank you and everyone else who posts here and keeps us up to date.

Brooke

[Patricia Light]

New month and still waiting for Debretts to update Hon Kit (h-p to Earl of Harewood), Albemarle (h-p to Earl of Strathmore). Why so slow!!!!!! i have 27 updates (all posted here) awaiting to be verified by DPB. The trouble is they never inform you if you are wrong. So how long do you wait? It took almost 2 years to update Violet Naylor-Leyland (sister of present baronet) to register her sons, even after i found the information on her facebook page. Oh if only they were as diligent as everyone who contributes here. I know what time & effort is put into keeping everyone up to date, but maybe that is because we are interested and it is not a job.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Some website owners obviously have higher standards than you do as to what information they deem reliable. Not every online source is as reliable as you may think it is, and for websites such as Debrett's it is much more important to be accurate than to be complete, so they wait until their own standards are satisfied.

It is also possible that in some cases the families have asked them not to update the site yet.

At any rate, if you keep bombarding them with what you think they should add to their website I suspect that you will soon find your email address blocked. Remember, it is their website, not yours, and they can add or withhold whatever they want to.

Since it seems clear that they read this newsgroup, I think it should be sufficient to post the information here, along with source citations, and when they are satisfied as to its reliability I am sure they will add it to their site.

[Patricia Light]

i would not say my standards are low in anyway as always check multiple websites, but i do think that if it appears in the births,marriages or deaths columns of newspapers than that should be sufficient, for example, a birth( Rowan Alexander ) reported in 'The Times' on 29/7/2023 to Lily Sampson (nee Bristow) whose mother is the sister of the present Baron Luke would have been added. The last time i checked beginning of last week they had not added that birth,

[dpth...@gmail.com]

If the information has been posted at Peerage News, one should assume that the Debrett's people have seen it and evaluated it already. By emailing them with your suggestions, you are asking them to spend time going back over information they've probably already seen and evaluated... time they could be spending looking for new sources and new information.

Richard and other posters here have the right idea, in my opinion. If information has been posted long ago on this group, but has not yet been adopted by Debrett's, they re-post it here, in order to give Debrett's another chance of seeing it in case they missed it. I suggest that that is a much better way to bring things to their attention.

[Patricia Light]

A lot of my e-mails have been acted upon by DPB so suggest a bit of both, does not come a miss. From my correspondence with them they did say 'keep messaging us as we miss a great deal that is posted on other websites as we are a very small team & all messages posted are welcome'

[bx...@yahoo.com]

The birth of the 2nd son to Baron MacAndrew and the new Grayson baronet have been recorded by Debrett's.

Patricia, if possible, could you please post a list of the updates you have submitted to Debrett's that haven't as yet been recorded?  Or at least the important ones, like the birth of heirs apparent and/or presumptive and others in the immediate line of succession to a peerage/baronetage?  That would be most helpful.

Thank you so much.

Brooke

[Patricia Light]

Hi Brooke

Well the birth of Hon Kit Lascelles was posted firstly on 'Royal Musings' (Marlene Koenig). She is a trusted source. I have some of her books on the descendants of Queen Victoria (& Hon Kit being a descendant) & also of 'Hein's Page. So i would trust this is accurate as Marlene Koenig tends to be in contact with the families directly.

The Hon Otis Hazlerigg is another. Who' s Who stated that Lord Hazlerigg has 2 sons & 'The Peerage.com' reported his name as Otis.

As for Albemarle, i first found that his birth had been recorded on 'Hein's' Page plus also Michael Rhodes reported the same (although i don't know their sources).

As for the rest of my updates they tend to be tying two families together where scions have married: recent entry is : Debretts have recorded that Thomas Holland-Hibbert (h.p. to Viscountcy of Knutsford) married Louisa Willoughby (scion of the Baron Middleton's) but have not recorded that Louisa had married Thomas but the reverse has happened: i.e. Thomas married Louisa. If you get my drift.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Hi Patricia.

Thanks for the information.  Definitely no need to repost on the marriages.

Personally, my main  focus is  always on the line of  succession to a peerage/baronetage, so the Harewood, Hazlerigg and Strathmore and Kinghorne situations are of concern.

Patricia, thanks for keeping all of us up to date, as we wait for Debrett's to catch up.

Brooke

[colinp]

I had occasion just now to email Debrett's with an update - one that was noted by this Group a few years ago but not yet included in the database.  I note that one has to email pee...@debretts.co.uk now rather than submit updates through the database website (if that is the right way of expressing it).  This is from the automatic response received:-

Database Update Submissions -  Submissions sent in by entrants and the original research undertaken by our team, is given priority when updating our database. This research is ongoing and includes examination of a variety of primary sources, including day-to-day announcements in newspapers, on official websites, and the confirmed social media of entrants. Submissions sent in by non-entrants will need to be checked in primary sources or with the entrant in question. This means that any such submission will not appear online unless it has been confirmed. 

[Patricia Light]

Hi Colin

i too received the same message - i wonder if they will be more efficient with information that appears on this group but not on their database?

[Henry W]

I have to say I prefer an email submission.  I found the inability to create proper links and format the text of my submissions with underlined headings etc meant that it was probably quite difficult for the team to read at the other end.  I always did my best to make it easy for them, but you can't make a silk purse with a sow's ear.  The need to format a submission is particularly true for some of their entries that have fallen significantly out of date and for which there are multiple updates needed.

I always try to give a link to the exact topic here where they will find information - either the topic contains a link to the source or where to find the record (e.g. GRO search), or I would include it in my submission.

[Patricia Light]

Some updates: Stafford  - Hon Toby, his son Ned now recorded - as any other updates on that title

Anglesey - Heir to Earl of Uxbridge now recorded and the Countess's name is now shown as Katherine Rose Sherry (as one of our marvellous group found out for us)

Aubrey-Fletcher/Mowbray : Harry A-F & Hon (Sarah) Louise Stourton's issue now recorded

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Hi Patricia.

Thanks so much for letting us know about these updates.

Brooke