MANSFIELD & MANSFIELD, Pamela Joan, Countess of (d.2022)

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Pamela Joan (née Foster), the Dowager Countess of Mansfield and Mansfield, died on 2 October 2022, mother of Alexander, Georgina and James.

Source: The Telegraph, 5 October 2022

She was daughter of Wilfred Neill Foster. The Mansfield article in Burke's refers one to the Cochrane of Cults article, where it is said that the former wife of Wilfred Neill Foster married in 1948 the 2nd Lord Cochrane of Cults, so this was probably Pamela's mother.

William David Mungo James Murray, 8th & 9th Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield (7 Jul 1930-21 Oct 2015); m.19 Dec 1955 Pamela Joan Foster (d.2 Oct 2022)

[dpth...@gmail.com]

The reason her husband was called 8th & 9th Earl, with the "8th" first, is that the earldom of which he was the eighth holder is actually older than the one of which he was the ninth.

William Murray, Lord Mansfield, was created in 1776 Earl of Mansfield (in County Nottingham), with an unusual remainder to his nephew's wife, Louisa Murray, née Cathcart. This was apparently done for complicated legal reasons explained in The Complete Peerage. Later, by 1792, those reasons no longer existed, so he was given a second Earldom of Mansfield (in County Middlesex), with remainder to his nephew, David Murray.

When he died in 1793, Louisa inherited the 1776 title, and David the 1792 title. David died in 1796 and was succeeded as 3rd Earl of the 1792 title by their son, who in turn died in 1840.

Louisa lived until 1843, when she was succeeded as 3rd Earl of Mansfield (1776 creation) by her grandson, William David Murray, who had already in 1840 become 4th Earl of Mansfield, of the 1792 creation.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Actually I followed Burke's in making a counting error, though I had it right on my web-page at https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/atholl.html

The Burke's edition I was using shows the 6th/7th Earl, and shows that his son, William, David Mungo James, was 7th/8th Earl. Then when looking at the top of the page, where the latter earl's information is shown, the 7th/8th is called the 8th/9th.

7th/8th is correct:

David MURRAY, 7th Viscount Stormont (9 Oct 1727-1 Sep 1796), suc his uncle James 1770 as Jacobite 2nd Earl of Dunbar, suc his uncle William 1793 as 2nd Earl of Mansfield, of the 1792 creation; m.1st 16 Aug 1759 Henriette Friederike de Berregaard, née Gräfin von Bünau (31 Jan 1737-16 Mar 1766); m.2nd 5 May 1776 Hon. Louisa Cathcart (1 Jul 1758-11 Jul 1843), who suc her husband’s uncle 1793 as 2nd Countess of Mansfield, of the 1776 creation, and who was later wife of Hon. R F Greville
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David William (7 Mar 1777-18 Feb 1840), suc his father 1796 as 3rd Earl of Mansfield (1792 creation); m.16 sep 1797 Frederica Markham (d.29 Apr 1860)
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William David (21 Feb 1806-2 Aug 1898), suc his father 1840 as 4th Earl of Mansfield (1792 creation), suc his grandmother 1843 as 3rd Earl of Mansfield (1776 creation); m.8 Apr 1829 Louisa Ellison (2 Jul 1809-24 Nov 1837)
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William David, Viscount Stormont (22 Jul 1835-12 Oct 1893); m.6 Aug 1857 Emily Louisa (1838-9 Apr 1919), dau of Sir John Atholl Mac Gregor, 3rd Bt.
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1.William David, 4th & 5th Earl of Mansfield (London 20 Jul 1860-Comlongan Castle 29 Apr 1906)

2.Alan David, 5th & 6th Earl of Mansfield (25 Oct 1864-14 Mar 1935); m.20 Apr 1899 Margaret Macgregor (15 Jan 1867-13 Feb 1933)
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Mungo David Malcolm, 6th & 7th Earl of Mansfield (9 Aug 1900-2 Sep 1971); m.19 Jul 1928 Dorothea Helena Carnegie (d.1985)
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William David Mungo James, 7th & 8th Earl of Mansfield (7 Jul 1930-21 Oct 2015); m.19 Dec 1955 Pamela Joan Foster (d.2 Oct 2022)

[Ivan Prekajski]

I think this her https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9999322

[Henry W]

Can anyone explain why this title is normally repeated (e.g. Earl of Mansfield & Mansfield) whereas others with two creations of the same name normally aren't (e.g. Baron Carrington)?

[dpth...@gmail.com]

I suspect that whenever they started that practice, it was to make sure that the odd situation was recognized, i.e., that the earldom with the fewer holders is actually the older one... but that's only a guess. Personally, on my website I refer to them as "7th & 8th Earl of Mansfield", for example, which conveys the same information less awkwardly. It is the same way the Bacon Baronets are usually referred to for the same reason... for example the current Sir Nicholas Bacon, 14th & 15th Bt.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

In earlier Peerages they didn't mention the numbering problem or the two earldoms, except to note that they were created. In the 1876 Debrett's it is said that William David (1806-1898) succeeded his father and doesn't mention that he succeeded his grandmother in the older title.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Burke's 1921 mentions two earldoms but does not call them "Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield". Furthermore they use only the numbering of the more recent creation, so that William David (b.1806) is listed as 4th Earl only, and though it mentions that he also succeeded his grandmother, does not mention that he was thus 3rd Earl of the older creation.

https://archive.org/details/b3136410x/page/1350/mode/2up

[Observer]

My understanding is that one of the Mansfield earldoms refers to Mansfield in Nottinghamshire and the other refers to another (perhaps fictitious) Mansfield in Middlesex. Since they are different places, it is, I think, correct to refer to the Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield, although perhaps not in everyday use. I think that the Scone Palace guidebook,  which I last read years ago, says that the creation of two Mansfield earldoms arose from a change in legal opinion as to whether a Scottish peer could inherit a GB peerage. 

[dpth...@gmail.com]

yes... that's what Cokayne says, as well. See footnote (a) on page 215.

https://archive.org/details/completepeerage01cokagoog/page/n224/mode/2up

[dpth...@gmail.com]

This is not relevant to the matter of the Mansfield titles, but concerns the first Lord Masfield. Today I happened to be reading Walpole’s letter, dated 9 June 1780, to William Mason about the Gordon Riots. After giving a lengthy account he said “The papers must tell you other details and what preceded the total demolition of Lord Mansfield’s, etc.”

 https://libsvcs-1.its.yale.edu/hwcorrespondence/page.asp?vol=29&seq=72&type=b

 In this Yale edition of the Correspondence the editors have written a long footnote containing the account from Lloyd’s Evening Post, 5-7 June 1780:

 “About eleven o’clock [at night, 6 June 1780], a very large body attacked Earl Mansfield’s house in Bloomsbury Square, the furniture of which took them a long time destroying. In this employment they were sometimes disturbed by a detachment of horse and foot soldiers, who appeared and retired again, till another party came to the spot, attended by a justice, who ordered the men to fire. This being done, they killed four men and one woman, besides dangerously wounding several others. After this, the mob set the house on fire, when there being two engines arrived, the firemen refused to play till the soldiers were removed. This being complied with, the mob would not suffer them to play till it was reduced to ashes, but did not hinder them from playing on Mr Baron Hotham’s house [next to Mansfield’s], which was thus preserved."

[Richard R]

Obit in the Times of 7 Jan 2023:

E X T R A C T

Pamela, Countess of Mansfield obituary

Forward-thinking chatelaine of Scone Palace who helped to breathe new life into a historic building

When Pamela Foster married into one of Scotland’s leading aristocratic families, she found herself landed, not only with a new way of life, but a palace. The Earls of Mansfield had owned Scone Palace for more than 400 years; its abbey was where Scottish kings had been traditionally crowned and it was an emblem of medieval history.

… The houses in London, as well as Comlongon, were sold, and the new earl and countess moved lock, stock and barrel to Scone. A tax arrangement meant that in exchange for reduced inheritance tax, and to meet the huge upkeep bills, the palace had to be kept open for visitors, and Mansfield threw herself into converting it. She recruited a team of local women to help. The tasks were many and varied…

…the palace’s most celebrated painting, of Dido Belle, a young mixed-race woman, painted in the 18th century alongside a daughter of the future 2nd Earl, was brought out of a back room and given pride of place. Research revealed Dido’s remarkable story: the daughter of a Caribbean slave and a Mansfield cousin, she turned out to have been, not a servant, but a member of the family…

… She was the daughter of an oil executive, Wilfred Foster, and his wife, Mimi; her grandfather was Alexander Duckham, founder of Duckham’s Oil. Mansfield herself was born in Port of Spain, the capital of Trinidad, where Wilfred was working at the time, and she proudly held a Trinidadian passport to the end of her days…

Her parents divorced and [her mother] remarried. Mansfield and her brother spent holidays at Crawford Priory in Fife, owned by her stepfather, Lord Cochrane. She was sent to a finishing school, and was presented to the Queen at court as a debutante…

… She and William were married in 1955, and had three children: Alexander, known as Mungo, now the 9th Earl, who, with his wife, Sophy, runs the Scone estate; Georgina, a deputy lord lieutenant of Perthshire; and James, who runs a commercial property investment company…

… She was admitted as an officer in the Order of St John and was president of their Perth and Kinross branch. Her most treasured role was as patron of Upper Springland, Capability Scotland’s centre for people with cerebral palsy, from which her favourite stepbrother, Anthony, had suffered.

Today Scone Palace is one of the most visited and successful stately homes in Scotland. It owes much to Mansfield’s early work. “She threw herself into everything she did,” recalled Georgina. “She would even follow tourist coaches to find out from their drivers where they were going, so she could persuade them to come to Scone.”

Pamela, Countess of Mansfield, chatelaine of Scone Palace, was born on November 23, 1934. She died on October 2, 2022, aged 87

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pamela-countess-of-mansfield-obituary-dlkbfdrzd