30 Tooth Cluster with Standard DuraAce Rear Derailleur

[X3Bike]

To All:

I have a question that I would appreciate your comments on:

My carbon bike has 2008 DuraAce (7800 or 7850) components except for a FSA Carbon Compact crankset. The rear derailleur is a standard short cage and I have the largest 7800 DA cluster (12-27). On steeper hills I find myself wishing I had a little lower gearing and would like to try fitting a 30 or 32 tooth cluster. I seem to recall that there was some discussion a couple years ago on the Pedalers list about fitting larger clusters with standard derailleurs, perhaps with a B screw adjustment. I see that the Shimano Ultegra 6700 is available in a 12-30 size but am not sure it would work. I do know that one option is to swap out the DA derailleur with a mountain bike XT RD.

I'd appreciate any comments on some options to accommodate a cluster with a 30 or 32 largest cog.

Regards,
Bob Manka

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2013-05-29 at 18:07 -0400, X3Bike wrote:
> To All:
>
> I have a question that I would appreciate your comments on:
>
> My carbon bike has 2008 DuraAce (7800 or 7850) components except for a FSA Carbon Compact crankset. The rear derailleur is a standard short cage and I have the largest 7800 DA cluster (12-27). On steeper hills I find myself wishing I had a little lower gearing and would like to try fitting a 30 or 32 tooth cluster. I seem to recall that there was some discussion a couple years ago on the Pedalers list about fitting larger clusters with standard derailleurs, perhaps with a B screw adjustment. I see that the Shimano Ultegra 6700 is available in a 12-30 size but am not sure it would work. I do know that one option is to swap out the DA derailleur with a mountain bike XT RD.

According to Sheldon Brown all short cage derailleurs will work with the
30T, possibly requiring messing with the B screw. Some have gotten away
with a 32 but that you definitely shouldn't count on. If you want to go
with a 32, 34 or 36 (yes, people are doing it and it's working great)
you'll need a MTB rear derailleur.

This has become quite common. A friend of mine has a new SRAM Red setup
with a long cage RD and a 32T large sprocket. It's the setup Contador
used in pro races last year. (So much for the notion that it's shocking
to suggest this and unprofessional, and that no self-respecting shop
would consider it for a moment!)

[Bob Doyle]

Correct me if I am wrong.

If you go the mountain bike derailleur route, I believe that Shimano 10
speed mountain derailleurs are incompatible with Shimano road shifters.
But 9 speed ones are compatible with just about all Shimano road shifters
except old Dura Ace 8, 7, 6 speed shifters.

9 speed derailleurs are still available.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2013-05-29 at 18:26 -0400, Bob Doyle wrote:
> Correct me if I am wrong.
>
> If you go the mountain bike derailleur route, I believe that Shimano 10
> speed mountain derailleurs are incompatible with Shimano road shifters.

The latest 10 speed Shimano Dyna Sys MTB derailleurs are incompatible
with road shifters, cable pull is different.

You're right, go with the 9 speed derailleurs.

[Stephan Greene]

Bob:

I did this with success on my old 9-speed rig (mix of Ultegra and DA); it even worked (barely) with a short-cage DA rear derailleur.  mid-cage Ultegra Rd seemed to work better.  As long as I stayed within 32t, I did not have to go the MTB derailleur route.  It was an utter fail with Shimano 10-speed - the derailleur cage fails to clear the large cog (32t in my case) even with maximum setting for the B-screw.  Didn't feel like mucking about with another derailleur to see if it would work.

I've had success in 10-speed land with SRAM Apex; I substitute a mid-cage Apex RD for Force when I need a 32t cassette for particularly hilly centuries (Civil War).  I do not know if the Apex rear derailleur is compatible with the amount of cable pull from a Shimano road brifter.

It should not make any difference, the Shimano 9 & 10-speed was with a 53/39 double, the SRAM is a 50/34 compact.

Hope this helps.

Steve

--
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Steve Greene  ks1...@gmail.com  <kay ess one gee zero four>@gmail.com
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[Eli Allen]

You can ty adaptors so you can use sram 10 speed mtb parts with a 10 speed shimano shifter:  http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmatestraight.php

[Adam Goldberg]

If you’re using SRAM, they sell a road rear derailleur especially for enabling large gearing, and have it in Apex, Force, Rival and Red.  http://www.sram.com/sram/road/technologies/wifli_tm

[raylo]

Also shimano has a gs ultegra mid cage that works fine at least up to 32t.  Sram makes 11-32 road cassettes that work great with the ultegra gs.  I actually tried the 11-32 on my 10 speed dura ace rd and it worked but prudence says stay out of the big-big combination.

Sent from a Galaxy S®III far far away....

[Greg Gibson]

9 speed XT derailleurs will work on a road bike and yes, you get 10 speeds on a 10 speed cassette. I rode this last year in AoMM and MoM.

Just don't get what's called a "rapid rise" derailleur as it shifts opposite.

greg

[Mark H]

I'm running a 9-speed Shimano Deore XT rear derailleur with 10-speed 105 shifters and 11-32 cassette. I used it two years ago for the Diabolical Double and this year for Mountains of Misery. I don't do my own wrenching and have only heard, "okay, we'll see what we can do" when I ask them to switch out the standard road derailleur and cassette. Shops include Conti's (now Freshbikes), Capitol Hill Bikes, and Spokes (Alexandria).

Mark

[Bruce Johnson]

I believe you're taking the wrong approach.  You should try putting on smaller chainrings. If you have a 52-tooth top chainring, 52/12 yields about 117 gear-inches (hereafter referred to as inches), which is higher than the 100" top gear that was common on road bicycles 30 years ago. If you can reduce your chainrings to 49-39, you'll still have a 110" high gear and a 39" low gear without increasing the chain windup or stretching your derailleur's capacity. My touring bike has chainrings of 49-39-28 (or 30, I forget), and discounting the granny gear, its range in gear inches is comparable to my 30-year-old sport touring bike, 42" - 100". Of course, if you're already running smaller chainrings, this is useless advice, but I've noticed that road cranks seem to have more teeth on them these days.

[X3Bike Gmail]

Bruce

Thank you for your detailed comment. You're right about some chainrings being too big for many riders. When I bought my Cervelo I had them replace the racing FSA Carbon crank (53/39 I believe) with the matching FSA Compact (50/34) so I will need to stay with that.

I'll be sending out a general response thanking everyone, summarizing the options, and asking a couple questions about chain and cassette compatibility.

Thanks for your comment.
Bob Manka

Sent from my iPhone

[Rudi Riet]

Quite a few road bikes (dare I say most) sold these days come with a compact double front setup, with 50-34 chainrings (or, in some cases, 52-36). Combine this with a wide-range, 10-speed MTB setup, and you can get close to a 1:1 climbing gear (or exactly that if you go for the 11-34 cassette).

Greg G. and Mark H. both run compacts up front, so they get a nice, low gear setup with the 11-32 cassette.

Rudi

www.randomduck.com

On 31 May 2013 14:25, Bruce Johnson <waterfo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I believe you're taking the wrong approach.  You should try putting on smaller chainrings. If you have a 52-tooth top chainring, 52/12 yields about 117 gear-inches (hereafter referred to as inches), which is higher than the 100" top gear that was common on road bicycles 30 years ago. If you can reduce your chainrings to 49-39, you'll still have a 110" high gear and a 39" low gear without increasing the chain windup or stretching your derailleur's capacity. My touring bike has chainrings of 49-39-28 (or 30, I forget), and discounting the granny gear, its range in gear inches is comparable to my 30-year-old sport touring bike, 42" - 100". Of course, if you're already running smaller chainrings, this is useless advice, but I've noticed that road cranks seem to have more teeth on them these days.

--

[Greg Gibson]

I ran 50/34 up front with 11/32 in the back for most of the climbing rides last year.

This year, having lost a bit of weight, I run an 11/25 in the back mostly although I did go with an 11/28 for MoM and was happy I did. 

I am considering going 52/36 with 11/28 in the back as there are times occasionally when I would like more top end speed.

greg

[Skip White]

OK.  This has been going on so long that I thought I would weigh in.  I recently switched to a DA 9000 set up with a 52/36 crank and an 11/28 (11 speed) cassette.  So far it is great on hills, flats and the rollers in our area.  I have even ridden it in Garrett County on the Masochistic Metric route.

Not a 32 . . .  but not a frankenbike either.

Skip

[raylo]

We are just wrapping up a tour in france where I brought the 11-32 to use on an ultegra rental bike. I trained on park central with an 11-25 but was glad to have that 32 over here on d'uez and madeline.  Even a 28 would have been tough or maybe impossible for me I think due to the length of those climbs... and my less than svelte form. The 32 worked flawlessly.

Sent from a Galaxy S®III far far away....

-------- Original message --------
From: X3Bike <x3b...@gmail.com>
Date: 05/31/2013 9:32 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: raylo <ra...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [pedalers] 30 Tooth Cluster with Standard DuraAce Rear Derailleur

Hi Raylo (Is this Raymond L.?)

Thanks for your response.  I'll be sending out a general response to everyone who replied with comments and questions, but I have a couple of questions for you since you've been close to where I am on this.

I'm thinking about starting closest to where I am.  First with my existing DA rear derailleur and trying a 30 tooth 12-30 Ultegra cassette and seeing if it will work.  You said that you tried a 32 and it sort of worked if you avoided the bib/big combination.  Would you expect that a 30 would work well, again avoiding big/big?

I'm not sure which DA rear derailleur you have, the older 7800 like mine or the newer 7900 which Shimano says takes a larger rear cog (28 vs 27 on mine)?  If you have the 7900 that may work a little better on the 30 or 32 that you tried.

Second, I wonder about hub compatibility.  Sheldon Brown's page on DA says that Shimano changed the spline pattern between the 7800 and 7850 onward.  Would you expect an Ultegra 30 cassette to work with my hubs (Hed factory kit on my Cervelo).  That may be a hard one to answer without seeing the hub.

Chains:  I have the original DA chain.  Would you expect that I would need to replace it with a longer one, or at least add links?  I gather that the SRAM chains have a replaceable "Master link" that makes it easier.

Ultegra GS:  That probably would be my next step and an excellent suggestion.  I don't expect to need anything larger than a 32 cog so would prefer the GS to an XT mountain bike RD.  Would you expect my existing DA road shifters to work with the GS mid-cage RD?

I'll include the above questions in my general email to the list, but wanted to run them by you first.

Thanks again,

Bob Manka

On May 30, 2013, at 9:17 AM, raylo <ra...@comcast.net> wrote:

Also shimano has a gs ultegra mid cage that works fine at least up to 32t.  Sram makes 11-32 road cassettes that work great with the ultegra gs.  I actually tried the 11-32 on my 10 speed dura ace rd and it worked but prudence says stay out of the big-big combination.

Sent from a Galaxy S®III far far away....

-------- Original message --------
From: Adam Goldberg <ad...@agp-llc.com>
Date: 05/30/2013 1:50 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: Eli Allen <eall...@gmail.com>,rfd...@cox.net
Cc: X3Bike <x3b...@gmail.com>,Pedalers Pedalers <peda...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [pedalers] 30 Tooth Cluster with Standard DuraAce Rear Derailleur

If you’re using SRAM, they sell a road rear derailleur especially for enabling large gearing, and have it in Apex, Force, Rival and Red.  http://www.sram.com/sram/road/technologies/wifli_tm

 

 

 

 

 

From: peda...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pedalers@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eli Allen
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:53 AM
To: rfd...@cox.net
Cc: X3Bike; Pedalers Pedalers
Subject: Re: [pedalers] 30 Tooth Cluster with Standard DuraAce Rear Derailleur

 

You can ty adaptors so you can use sram 10 speed mtb parts with a 10 speed shimano shifter:  http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmatestraight.php

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Bob Doyle <rfd...@cox.net> wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong.

If you go the mountain bike derailleur route, I believe that Shimano 10
speed mountain derailleurs are incompatible with Shimano road shifters.

[X3Bike Gmail]

Fantastic!  Thanks for the reply .

Bob M.

Sent from my iPhone

[Mike and Joan Divine]

Several years ago, I switched to a SRAM cassette which gave me a 32T cog compared to my 25T which came with the bike.  The read derailleur and brifters were 9-speed Shimano 105.  The only other change that I had to make was replacing my chain.  My knees thanked me.

 

Mike

[X3Bike]

To All:

Thank you very much for your comments; I think I've thanked everyone but if not, thank you.  I waited to send out a general response until I got a new cluster installed and tested.  I owe you a report:

My Planned Solution, including your suggestions:

1. Start with my existing Shimano DA with a 30 tooth cluster.  This is where I am now; details below.

2. Change out rear derailleur with a longer cage (Shimano 9-speed or Ultegra 6700 GS 10 speed).  This will be next if I need more low-end gearing (32 tooth or larger).

1. Ultegra 12/30 tooth cluster:  Installed at my bike shop after I cleaned the drive train.  Even with the original Shimano 7800 DA derailleur and chain it shifts smoothly and in the small front chainring it easily handles the 30 cog.  I only use up to the 27 cog when in big chainring; will shift into the 30 but the chain is fully stretched.  

The experienced tech adjusted the B screw to full extension.  First ride I was getting some chain noise in the big chain wheel (didn't show up on the stand).  Back on my stand it turned out that the alignment of the rear derailleur top idler pulley wasn't quite the same as the original DA 12/27 cluster.  Following the Shimano Derailleur adjustment sheets I re-adjusted the rear derailleur (and front while I was at it).  Also, to get the top idler pulley up closer to the 30 cog I actually backed off the B screw 2 full turns!  From the Shimano parts diagram for the 7800 rear derailleur it turns out that they actually made an optional "GS long cage".  Now the GS is usually called a "mid-cage" on the Ultegra rear derailleurs.  With the longer cage it might even handle a 32 but that would have to be tested.  However, a longer cage would allow a longer chain and I'm confident would be fine in the big/big combination with the 30 tooth.

The tech suggested I change lubricant from the Pro Link to Rock 'n Roll Gold; he said some reviews said it provided better lubrication with a cleaner drive train.  So far it seems pretty smooth.

RESULTS:

The new Ultegra 12/30 cluster actually seems to shift as smoothly as the original 12/27 DA cluster.  I've had only a few opportunities to try the 30 on some small hills where I used to sometimes stand up on the steepest part.  With the 30 I climbed them in the saddle.  The cog change is only 11% but it helps.  I'll give it some more time to see if it is all I need.

Thanks to all; picture follows with B screw backed off 2 turns.

Bob Manka

[Greg Gibson]

Glad you got it working Bob, enjoy!

greg

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:46 PM, X3Bike wrote:

To All:

Thank you very much for your comments; I think I've thanked everyone but if not, thank you.  I waited to send out a general response until I got a new cluster installed and tested.  I owe you a report:

My Planned Solution, including your suggestions:

1. Start with my existing Shimano DA with a 30 tooth cluster.  This is where I am now; details below.

2. Change out rear derailleur with a longer cage (Shimano 9-speed or Ultegra 6700 GS 10 speed).  This will be next if I need more low-end gearing (32 tooth or larger).

1. Ultegra 12/30 tooth cluster:  Installed at my bike shop after I cleaned the drive train.  Even with the original Shimano 7800 DA derailleur and chain it shifts smoothly and in the small front chainring it easily handles the 30 cog.  I only use up to the 27 cog when in big chainring; will shift into the 30 but the chain is fully stretched.  

The experienced tech adjusted the B screw to full extension.  First ride I was getting some chain noise in the big chain wheel (didn't show up on the stand).  Back on my stand it turned out that the alignment of the rear derailleur top idler pulley wasn't quite the same as the original DA 12/27 cluster.  Following the Shimano Derailleur adjustment sheets I re-adjusted the rear derailleur (and front while I was at it).  Also, to get the top idler pulley up closer to the 30 cog I actually backed off the B screw 2 full turns!  From the Shimano parts diagram for the 7800 rear derailleur it turns out that they actually made an optional "GS long cage".  Now the GS is usually called a "mid-cage" on the Ultegra rear derailleurs.  With the longer cage it might even handle a 32 but that would have to be tested.  However, a longer cage would allow a longer chain and I'm confident would be fine in the big/big combination with the 30 tooth.

The tech suggested I change lubricant from the Pro Link to Rock 'n Roll Gold; he said some reviews said it provided better lubrication with a cleaner drive train.  So far it seems pretty smooth.

RESULTS:

The new Ultegra 12/30 cluster actually seems to shift as smoothly as the original 12/27 DA cluster.  I've had only a few opportunities to try the 30 on some small hills where I used to sometimes stand up on the steepest part.  With the 30 I climbed them in the saddle.  The cog change is only 11% but it helps.  I'll give it some more time to see if it is all I need.

Thanks to all; picture follows with B screw backed off 2 turns.

Bob Manka

<IMG_1355 copy.jpeg>

On May 29, 2013, at 6:07 PM, X3Bike <x3b...@gmail.com> wrote:

To All:

I have a question that I would appreciate your comments on:

My carbon bike has 2008 DuraAce (7800 or 7850) components except for a FSA Carbon Compact crankset.  The rear derailleur is a standard short cage and I have the largest 7800 DA cluster (12-27).  On steeper hills I find myself wishing I had a little lower gearing and would like to try fitting a 30 or 32 tooth cluster.  I seem to recall that there was some discussion a couple years ago on the Pedalers list about fitting larger clusters with standard derailleurs, perhaps with a B screw adjustment.  I see that the Shimano Ultegra 6700 is available in a 12-30 size but am not sure it would work.  I do know that one option is to swap out the DA derailleur with a mountain bike XT RD.

I'd appreciate any comments on some options to accommodate a cluster with a 30 or 32 largest cog.

Regards,
Bob Manka