Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[Daniel Deckert]

I have a question for all you Pearson owners. 

I have a 1972 36' sloop with a 6' draft. Fin keel, skeg rudder. A few years ago it looks like it had a hard grounding (before I bought it) it opened up a smile along the keel/hull joint and cracked the GRP floor pan aft of the keel. I noticed when the boat was picked up last that the keel wobbled back and forth a little. Not at the joint (even though it has a crack it is solidly fastened to the hull). The movement was along the curve of the hull after it tapered away from the keel. Could this be caused by the cracked floor pan? Is it normal for boats with semi-deep keels like this to wobble a little and flex the hull? Should I reenforce the bilge cross bracing?

Sorry, I had a video of the movement, but can't seem to find it.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Cheers,

Dan.
Sailing Uma

[RICHARD USEN]

Find the nearest good surveyor or naval architect. This is not the place to guess

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

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[Bill Robart]

Dan,

I'll add to Dick Usen's comment by saying that the problem is likely beyond the scope of a normal surveyors expertise.  A naval architect or engineer's assessment opinion is what you want.  You can do a quick and dirty survey yourself by looking for separated tabbing and "sounding" for delaminated fiberglass in the hull near the keel.

You are looking for some specific answers from the engineer/architect:

1. Is there a problem?

2. What specifically is needed to fix the problem?

Having said all that I would assume that in any plastic structure there has to be a certain amount of flexing as the construct is rotated or otherwise stressed.  How much flex before there is a failure is the realm of the engineer/architect. You have a plastic bathtub with a very heavy lump of lead hanging on a strut below the tub. As the tub heels the strut has to counter the offset weight. Under or poorly design, poorly construct, or stress the structure beyond its design limit and you'll get damage.

Running aground on something hard (reef or rock) at speed and you'll stress the keel and support structure and likely leave the common "smile"  where the keel connects to the hull and possibly a crack/delamination in the hull at the trailing edge of the keel.

From your description I'd guess your assessment of the problem being that of a cracked floor pan is correct. I would be alarmed to see the hull flexing anywhere near the keel or to see the keel visibly "wobble".

Bill

[Dan Pfeiffer]

To add to the answers you have already gotten, a survey or an engineers survey might be in order.  That said, this may be a straight forward (though involved) issue to repair.  This is all conjecture from here on but it may give you something to go on...

 

The P36 has a fairly deep keel stub.  There should be T-shaped tranverse stringers running across and down into the inside of the stub (the bilge sump).  These transverse stringers are called floors.   In other Peasons of that era these would be fiberglass layed over foam forms (1" thick or so) and tabbed to the hull after the hull was layed up, pehaps before it was pulled from the mold but maybe not.  In either case they are put in with secondary bonding in polyester resin.   In a grounding the keel is pushed up aft and down forward and the tabbing of the floors is often broken off the hull.   If that were the case the sort of flexing you have decribed could be expected. 

 

What to look for...

Get down in the bilge and inspect the tabbing where the floors attach to the hull.  Look for seperation and cracks.  Check all of them on both sides (at least as much as you can access).  

 

What to do...

Here is the straight forward but involved repair. 

***Cut out the cabin sole for full width access to the bilge sump.  Do this with a mind to re-installing it later.

***Remove all the floors.  This will be easier than you would like to think.  An air chisel is great for this but they may already be very loose.  

***Grind off any gel coating in the bilge and prep the surface for new bonding (clean and sand to 80 grit).  Grinding dust is nasty nasty.  You need proper protection.  Asbestos rated respirators or fresh air breating setup.  Dust collecting grider a big plus (Festool RAS 115 is what I have and it is fantastic but $$$).

*** Make new floor forms from 1" or 2" rigid foam board like you get at home depot.  Make them as tall and as wide as possible and round over the tops for the fiberglass fabric (1/2" radius is fine).   Maybe make more than OEM?  every 8" or so?  Need to see to know.

***Glue the forms into the bilge

 

Here comes the fiberglassing part - I would use only epoxy resin (I would not even consider polyester) and biaxial fabric, perhaps with mat backing in the larger expanses.   And it should all be done in a continuous process (called hot coating) for best bonding betweeen layers.

 

***Make a mix of resin thickend with high strength filler (e.g. West 404 or 406) and make nice smooth fillets where the forms meet the hull

***Lay in fabric over the fillets using 4" wide biax tape (e.g. West 727).  It is easy to work with and very strong.  Cover all the fillets.

***Lay in overlapping layers of biaxial fabric from the bottom, up and over the forms and down the other side.  Overlap the 4" tape an d run out 4 to 8 inches.  Make it overlap the tabbing for the next floor.   Go for a final thickness of 3/16 to 1/4".

 

Plan ahead for limber holes at the bottom (or don't quite go the the bottom) and mind you don't cover the keel bolts or make them inaccessable.   You will also want fans and maybe ice bags (big zip locks with ice water work well) and work on a cool day with slow epoxy hardenrer (e.g. West 206) to keep things from curing too fast.    After all that you'll need to re-install the cabin sole. 

 

Like I said, straight forward but involved.  And you will have the stiffest P36 bilge around. 

 

I did a similar job in my 10M though it has a much more shallow bilge.  The deeper bilge is harder to work in but better structually because you can have taller floors.  Some info on my bilge project here:

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/mast_step.htm

You have a different mast step configuration.

 

Where are you located?

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Daniel Deckert

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 8:30 PM

Subject: [pearson ] Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[Dave Cole]

I'm not familiar with the P36.  Does the P36 use a liner for the floor or is the floor attached to the traverse floor members? 

 

If you need to cut out the liner to inspect the traverse floor member attachments to the hull side, that is going to be a big job.  But I'm not sure you would have much choice as

a floppy keel is bad news.

 

For cutting liner and tabbing, I've had good luck using an air powered right angle die grinder (could be a straight grinder as well) with an arbor attachment meant to hold abrasive cutting disks.  But instead of using abrasive disks I have used a carbide tipped saw blade which is 3-4 inches in diameter meant for a small wood working saw.   You need to make sure you don't overspeed the saw blade.   That setup is definitely NOT Osha approved but it tears through fiberglass and leaves a smooth and thin cut.  Using an air powered die grinder is preferable since it can be stalled without damage.  You can also use abrasive disks 3-4 inches in diameter but they are very good at making fine dust which gets everywhere.  Although working with fiberglass seems to produce massive amounts of fine dust no matter what you do. 

BTW, you can buy 4 and 5" high speed abrasive cutting disks as large as 5" and as thin as 1/16" but they won't be a Home Depot/Menards etc.  Think McMaster Carr, MSC etc.

 

Dave

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 10:21 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

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[Robert Franklin]

Could you leave the "floors" (stringers, I call them, perhaps incorrectly) and just sister them on each side?

Bob Franklin

--

Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047

617 277 5900 Cell
617 277 5901 Fax

email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[Bill Robart]

You could do anything but it would look non professional and may hurt the resale value. Professional repairs are ok, DIY repairs are always suspect.

Bill

[Daniel Deckert]

Wow! Thank you guys for all your great advice. We removed the plywood floors today revealing the original GRP floorpan which is moulded to the rest of the floor/ furniture bases. If access is required to the entire bilge sump, removal will be necessary. I did have the boat surveyed before I bought it up in Boston. The surveyor didn't seem to think it was a big deal. He said fill the smile every haul out, reglass the crack in the floor pan and as long as no water was coming up through the keel bolts it would be fine. This was before the boat was picked up and I noticed the wobble. Again, without video it might be hard to describe, but the wobble is not at the keel joint or stub. It is noticeable about 1-2' up the hull form where the keel turns and becomes the hull. I, and the surveyor, looked and searched for any signs of tabbing de-lamination through the entire boat, especially the aft portion of the keel sump. We found nothing, no signs of loose tabbing anywhere. The stringers are solidly attached, no cracking, no sounding consistent with de-lamination, nothing. 

Photos of the keel and floor pan can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6zsUzuBljeBVmlfRlJiZ3YzQ2c&usp=sharing

Is it just me, or is it strange that the cracks in the floor pan are parallel, perfectly straight and exactly down the middle of where there is no nonslip texture? Is this part of the floor supposed to be removable for access? Aside from these strange "cracks" there is no noticeable signs of damage inside the boat. 

Thanks again for all your advice so far.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Robert Franklin]

Dan,

May I ask, where is your boat?

Bob Franklin

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[Blaine Price]

So the hull flexes allowing the keel to move back and forth? Are there stress cracks?

I know you mentioned parallel stress cracks on the floor. Parallel cracks can be a sign of hinge effect.

Wm. Blaine Price, D.O.

[Bill Robart]

Sure looks to me like the "parallel cracks" are very fine saw kerfs.  I'd bet that section of the cabin sole has been removed to inspect for damage and possible repair from a grounding.

I assume that the forward edge of the keel is well forward of there and that the section of sole is near the aft end of the keel.

The pictures of the bottom of the boat show a keel to hull joint that has been cosmetically repaired a few times or more.  I'd suggest you read all of the posts about the upcoming repairs to George DeBose's P-36-1. I think you may be following in his footsteps.

Are there similar gelcoat stress crack to those on the port side, at the turn of the keel, on the starboard side?  Sure looks like stress cracks to me.  I'd check for delamination in those areas.  Is that the area where you saw the hull flexing? Have you inspected the floors in that area.

I'd ask the boatyard to suggest a local naval architect/engineer and have the boat inspected.

I'd try to take pictures of whatever structure is under the cabin sole to get a better look at the areas you cannot see by sticking you head in the bilge access hatches. It may also be worth some effort to contact previous owners to find out what, if any, repairs have been made to the boat.

Bill

[RICHARD USEN]

It would be helpful if we all use the same terms. “Floor” is a very specific marine term and originally was a transverse timber that spanned the keel to stiffen up the bilge. The thing you walk on is the cabin sole.

 

The “lump” you have is the same place my Signet transducer was, likely installed in the yard at birth.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100 ex P-30

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Robart

Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:04 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Guy Johnson]

I agree with Bill's assessment of the 'cracks' in the cabin sole as saw cuts. 

I think Dan's description of how to repair is spot on. 

In response to Bob Franklins question about sistering the floors. If the floors were sistered the original secondary polyester bonds would still be in place and likely to continue loosening in the future. Building a stiff epoxy bonded floor sistered to the weaker polyester bonded floor would likely accelerate the decay of the original floors. 

But it won't really be clear until the cabin sole is removed. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

---

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:04:12 -0400

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

From: wro...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Robert Franklin]

Sorry to Dan Deckert for the repeat question but with all the information you may have missed my couple lines:

Would you let us know where your boat is kept?

Bob Franklin

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

>>On 2015-03-22 19:01, Robert Franklin wrote:
>>Could you leave the "floors" (stringers, I call them,
>>perhaps incorrectly) and just sister them on each side?
>>Bob Franklin

No. 

The OEM floors are tabbed to the hull with layers of glass fabric in polyster resin.   The weak part is the bond of the tabbing to the hull.  This is a mechanical bond in polyester and I would guess (based on what I have seen in many other Pearsons) the prep work for it was not as complete as we would like to think.  Sistering additional floors would make things stiffer but the new would be tabbed right over the old tabbing and add no strength to the attatchment to the hull.   If you are going to increase the stiffness you need to increase the strength of the attachment.  Otherwise it is a waste of effort.  Remove it all and start from scratch with epoxy and biaxial fabric.  Forget woven roving too.  That's strong and would have been the choice in 1972 but it's not as good as biax and biax is a lot easier to work with and wet out in my experience.  You will still have mechanical bonding of the new tabbing to the hull but epoxy will get you about double the bond strength of polyster.  A couple other things will make it stronger.  Extending the tabbing over a larger area will add, the overall stiffness of the biax compared to roving or cloth will help spread the load, and the fillets done with thickned epoxy in the hot coating process as I described will help reduce the tendancy of tabbing to peel from the backside where it turns to the hull.  

Do it right or do it twice.  

Also, to do this right you need wide and easy access to the bilge area.  I wouldn't do it without removing the entire cabin sole outboard to the settee faces.  The sole is a cride chopper-gun fabrication that is part of the large pan Prason used in these days.  Same on my 10M.  It is probably balsa cored.  I Cut a couple inches inboard of the settee faces on mine.  Made it go back in.  Not too pretty but it can be covered with teak/holly or carpet.  I would rather have strong than pretty anyway.    

Dan Pfeiffer

[Daniel Deckert]

Thanks guys. I will try tomorrow to get better pictures of inside the bilge. 

Bob, the boat is located in Fort Pierce, FL.

Dan, thanks for your input and advice. I hope I don't have to cut out all the floors and reglass them, but if I do, you're advice has made the process seem much less daunting. 

Does the cabin sole provide any strength the boats structure? Or, is it the floors that do all the work? 

From what I remember the flex in the hull was far enough up from the keel that it is closer to where the floors terminate port and stbd. Almost as if the floors, keel and joint are solid and the fiberglass hull near their connection points is flexing. I've attached a terrible sketch depicting this idea. 

I might get the yard to pick up my boat again so I can video the flex/wobble accurately. 

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 8:30:44 PM UTC-4, Daniel Deckert wrote:

[Daniel Deckert]

Just realized how tiny that sketch posted. It is also in the album I posted earlier. 

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6zsUzuBljeBVmlfRlJiZ3YzQ2c&usp=sharing

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 8:30:44 PM UTC-4, Daniel Deckert wrote:

[Guy Johnson]

Dan;

it's hard to tell from the pictures are your floors square topped? Have some of them been replaced already? 

the floors in my 10M have a half round profile on the top, no hard edges. 

Your drawing showing where the hull flexes make me doubt the integrity of your floors. On wooden boats the floors usually carry past the turn of the bilge and would also be used to support the cabin sole. Your flex point has me wondering if your floors were replaced with floors that don't extend far enough out toward the side of the hull. Another possibility might be detached tabbing on some of the floors hidden by the cabin sole. 

Can another P36-1 owner supply any pictures of original floors?

Guy

---

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:12:18 -0700
From: decker...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[George DuBose]

Can another P36-1 owner supply any pictures of original floors?

I don't know if my floors are original, the PO had some work done by
Brewer's in Connecticut and I also have a "new" access hatch between
the long access hatch and the smaller one near the companionway.

I am going to DisneyWorld (have pity) over Easter with my sons and
won't be visiting Skylark until April 11th. I will get photos of my
floors and send them.

Here are some photos of Bandit's new cabin sole under construction.
Don't think this was part of a structural repair, rather cosmetic.

I will be visiting Bandit in Charleston, SC on Easter Sunday, will try
to get photo of his bilge and floors.


George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443
Website: http://www.george-dubose.com

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Robert Franklin]

Wow.  So that's how its done.  And I was thinking piece by piece tongue and groove.  This looks beautiful and something, even I, could do.

On my P36-1.  The P.O. Painted the cabin sole in such a way that a significant amount of the non-skid original surface is compromised, which is why I never go barefoot when sailing.  Too slippery.

What is the material being used to crate the teak and holly look?  Does it provide some traction under foot or is it slippery?

Bob

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[Mike Mayer]

Bob,

It's teak & Holly plywood:

Teak and Holly Plywood

				Teak and Holly Plywood Teak and Holly plywood features a traditional cabin sole pattern with alternating strips of teak and contrasting light wood. Sold in 4 x 8 ft sheets in 1/4, 1/2, an...
				View on www.jamestowndist...	Preview by Yahoo

 

Slan go Foill,  (Gaelic  "bye for now")
Mike

Semper Paratus
*************
There is nothing - absolute nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
*****
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; But right or wrong, our country!" - Commodore Stephen Decatur.
***
Molon Labe
***
"In a sailboat I become oblivious to everything else in the world."
- Albert Einstein

[Jeff Griglack]

Yow!  Not cheap, that's for sure.

Boulter Plywood has what looks to be the same for cheaper and they sell half sheets.
http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

[Mike Mayer]

Slan go Foill,  (Gaelic  "bye for now")
Mike

Nice,

These guys are less also:

Marine Plywood by Homestead - Teak & Holly

				Marine Plywood by Homestead - Teak & Holly Click on a picture to see a larger view          Please note: Measurements in inches are nominal. Actual measurement is in mm. Face veneer thickness i...
				View on www.marine-plywoo...	Preview by Yahoo

Semper Paratus
*************
There is nothing - absolute nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
*****
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; But right or wrong, our country!" - Commodore Stephen Decatur.
***
Molon Labe
***
"In a sailboat I become oblivious to everything else in the world."
- Albert Einstein

[Guy Johnson]

Now days everything you buy from Jamestown Distributors you have to research the price and ask them to price match. Previously they had very reasonable prices and you could buy from them knowing you paid a reasonable price. Not anymore. 

Guy

---

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:29:43 +0000
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[Michael Graham]

Many of you saw "Sundog" a P36-1, featured on the cover of "Good Old Boat 8-10 years ago. I contacted the owner, and have a number of great photographs of what the interior and floor can look like. They are simply eye candy, like a pretty girl. 

I would be glad to post them. Is there a way to do so to the forum without overloading?  Not my boat, so I am not exaggerating. 

Mike Graham

P-10M. Bali Ha'i, Hull 14

Sent from Outlook

[Robert Franklin]

I still have that issue.

In fact, Good Old Boat featured the P36-1 on the cover of the July/August 2006 issue and the P36-2 on the cover of the May/June 2007 issue.  I have that one, also.

Both had extensive reviews inside and both inside reviews were of the P36-1, notwithstanding the P36-2 on the cover.  The caption to the cover of the P36-2 states that the P36-1 was a "predecessor" and that is true as far as chronology goes, but otherwise, the boats only share floating as a commonality ... in my opinion.

A friend of mine crewed on Sun Dog a few years ago.

Of course I'm partial to the look of the P36-1 and prefer it to the P36-2.  This is only natural because I own the 1.  I know a lot of beautiful work was done on Sun Dog. I do not particularly like the stern treatment; the intense dark blue color and the fanciful over sized graphic for the name.  That has to do with personal aesthetics and is no criticism is intended beyond personal taste.

[Guy Johnson]

Bob;

Do you have any pictures of the floors in your P36-1 that you could post? 

They would go a long way to help this discussion. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

---

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 10:27:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble
From: robertm...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Robert Franklin]

I do not and access if limited, of course.  I do notice one floor tabbing has separated from the hull at about the point that Dan Deckert is describing.

Different from the descriptions by George Dubose and Dan are the conditions of the keel hull joint on my boat.  The keel hull joint is almost impossible to distinguish.  Not quite sure why that is, because the boat has had plenty of tough sailing.  Bermuda twice, at least and to Florida from Massachusetts another couple of times on the outside.  I do have a slight crack at the aft turn of the upper glass of the keel into the round of the hull, but that is no where near the lead keel attachment.  It is the source of a slight leak into the bilge; about two quart a week.  I have addressed it unsuccessfully and, unusually for me, by a professional.

My guess is that some a hole in the boats history cranked up the hydraulic back stay adjuster and began the process.  I have a plan to work on this with the professional again this spring.  I don't mind paying for this twice as I believe it is a hard problem to fix given its location and the forces that apply at that point.

A background that is relevant is this:  (This is a repeat of a prior posting many years ago.)

Shortly after purchasing the boat in 1980 there was a rumor going around, more mythology in its exaggeration, than truth, that  P36-1 had a keel fall off.  This is ridiculous, but it might have alluded to a keel/hull joint problem that then became embellished as in the old telephone game kids use to play before they could blow up the world on their televisions.

Around the summer of 1980 Pearson sent Lionel Texiera from the factor with a crew of two more to Barden's Boat Yard in Marion, MA. They spent the better part of a week grinding down the "smile" (hate that term as it is neither emotionally appropriate nor physically descriptive).  I was not there, so I cannot say exactly what they did, but they spent full days and at least 4 of them working.  I do not recall there being a keel hull problem even before they began, but there certainly had been none since then.

Before the aft end crack (about 3 inches and barely visible even with the boat on the Brownell rig) my bilge would be bone dry, as long as rain wasn't getting in from the mast openings.  Now I have a wet bilge, but the bilge on the P36 is rather deep, so I don't get water sloshing up even if I forget to pump for a week or two.  Still, it annoys me and is something I am trying to address without going nuts.  I am sorry and a bit disturbed to hear this discussion about removing cabin soles.  A big big job, even if you discount the even bigger job of removing the dust when you are done.  You'll never remove a great deal of the dust that will get everywhere.  It make one want to take the boat, dump it inp a big sink and then turn it upside down in the dish strainer.

A couple of the nice features of the P36-1 are the deep bilge (not so deep you can't reach everything) and the mast step located high above the deep part of the bilge.  Even then the ferrous steps have rusted marvelously.  Thus I, George and probably anyone else who likes to keep the bottom of their mast in the same location from one day to the next, has replaced the step.  This is an expensive item, but relative to the work described on our forum for other things, fairly straightforward.  It helps to have done it once before or to chat with someone who has.

RMF

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

The cabin sole is not a structural part of the boat.   The layup of the entire liner is on the crude side.  It was done on a male mold using chopper gun and dropped into the hull before the deck was dropped into place.  The thickness of the liner is quite variable.  It is gel coated and certainly does the job though it does limit access to the inside surface of the hull in many significant areas like the bilges.   And when it's all tied together there would be some added stiffness. 

Maybe you can measure outboard from center line to get a better idea of where the stress cracks are in relation to the inside of the boat.    When you get up more outboard you get into the area of the fiberglass water tanks under the settees.  These are triangular in cross section and dropped in and tabbed to the hull.  They are not integral with the hull, they have their own bottoms.  Easy to remove also once the furniture is out but then your upping things a level.  But if you need to get out that far a different technique may be called for.

Dan Pfeiffer

--

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

 

On 2015-03-24 11:51, Robert Franklin wrote:
>>...A big big job, even if you discount the even bigger job of

>> removing the dust when you are done.  You'll never remove a
>> great deal of the dust that will get everywhere.  It make one

>> want to take the boat, dump it in a big sink and then turn

>> it upside down in the dish strainer.

 

Dust is a significant problem in the sort of fiberglass work we have been discussing.  It can get everywhere and it is especially nasty (like asbestos).   The best solution I have come to is my Festool RAS115 sander/grinder.  It has excellent dust collection and is powerful enough to grind a hole through the hull.  I used to set up a fresh air breathing system and work in the cloud.  No more.  The RAS115 catches better than 85% of the dust and what it misses tends to be the larger chunks that don't stay airborne.  It is expensive.  The rig I have with the Festool HEPA rated vacuum will set you back 800 or $900 these days  but it is a lot less than a lung transplant.  You can use the tool with a cheaper vacuum but it's not quite as good.  A good fresh air breathing system is not cheap either and you still get dust everywhere.  I still use the asbestos rated respirator with the Festool.   You can tent the work section too but without the dust collection it is very difficult to do effectively. 

There may be alternatives to the Festool RAS115 from other manufacturers (Fein?).  I used to grid with my Makita angle grinder.  Great tool but very messy.  The Festool is more than aggressive enough and the dust collection wins the day. 

Life's too short for cheap tools....

Also, I have a 1-1/4" dia garboard drain on the lowest part of my bilge.  I take the screw-in bronze plug out when the boat is on-the-hard.  Any locker or space that drains to the bilge can be rinsed out.  Very handy.  Not quite like dipping in a sink but a lot better than sponging it out.  Scrub with soapy water and rinse.  And I don't worry about water accumulation in the off season.  The bronze plug and flange is very robust.

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/garboard_drain.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

[SteveA]

"Sure looks to me like the "parallel cracks" are very fine saw kerfs.  I'd bet that section of the cabin sole has been removed to inspect for damage and possible repair from a grounding."

Yes i would agree.
this cut looks like someone took the cabin sole up for inspection and/or repair.
i would also think the sole acts as a diagram and adds greatly to the rigidity of the whole hull.
To inspect: have someone move the keel and one person in the cabin to watch.
My money is there will be visible movement in the cabin sole.

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

The liner was dropped in whole (with all the furniture parts and bulkheads) and tabbed to the hull in a few places but not close to continuously.  I am sure it adds a bit if stiffness but to really contribute in a meaningful way I would expect it to be thoroughly tabbed to the hull with roving in every possible location.  But that is the problem.  There just isn't access to do that work after the liner/interior is in dropped place.  The aft bulkhead in my 10M is tabbed to the hull on the locker side where there was easy access(but the work wasn't that good) but there was none on the forward side under the icebox because there was no way to get at it.  It's the same issue everywhere else on the boat.  You can see some photos of what I am talking about here:

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/galley_rebuild.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

[SteveA]

i see what you mean - i still think the movement would be visible here.
this is unfortunate because this "plate" would add a lot to the integrity of the hull. sort of like building a box truss with rigidity in xyz axis.
btw: nice photos and great work.

[Daniel Deckert]

Dan,

Just cruised through your website. WOW! nice job. I ripped out that piece of cabin sole today. It was definitely cut previously as it came out in one piece and some wood cross bracing was cut underneath as well. It looks like I finally found my missing loos tabbing! I added some more photos the the drive album posted earlier of todays discovery. The weird part is, there are 3 floors forward of the bilge sump. All being fiberglass and totally solid. No loos tabbing nothing. But, they are thin floors, like 1/4 with a right angle at the top to support the cabin sole. Then, there are 2 floors aft of the bilge sump. These are the ones I discovered today. All three are wood, tabbed only half way up and not even close to perpendicular to the centerline. I will be cutting out cabin sole and remaking these aft floors for sure.

The issue is, from what I remember, the wobble and deformation of the hull when the keel was pushed side to side was closer to the point between the keel sump and the mast step, and NOT back where these loose, wood floors are. I also found that both water tanks had loose tabbing aft and the galley and nav station "bulk heads" (not true bulkheads but more space dividers) had loose tabbing at their bases as well. This surely isn't structural since the tabbing is only a foot long and 3" wide. I will re-tab these best I can anyway. 

Thanks again guys for all your help. I feel pretty good about the work needed for this repair now and will start next week. 

I'm sure I'll have more questions as they come up, so stay tuned.

On a side note we took a break today and got our "new" engine on our dingy and took her out for a few water trials. It was a blast! "Work hard, play hard" right? 

[Guy Johnson]

Daniel;

I looked at your pictures of the aft floors, I don't think they are original. Your description of the more forward floors don't sound like factory original floors either. Give the reported flex in the hull in the area of the floors I think you'll need to remove the entire cabin sole and replace all of the floors using the technique Dan P. described. It's a big commitment, but once started should go quickly and in the end you'll have a stronger than factory bilge area. 

Guy

---

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 19:29:39 -0700
From: decker...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[Dave Cole]

Dan,

 

Can you resend the link to your pictures?

 

I missed that somehow.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Deckert
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 7:31 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pearson ] Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

I have a question for all you Pearson owners. 

I have a 1972 36' sloop with a 6' draft. Fin keel, skeg rudder. A few years ago it looks like it had a hard grounding (before I bought it) it opened up a smile along the keel/hull joint and cracked the GRP floor pan aft of the keel. I noticed when the boat was picked up last that the keel wobbled back and forth a little. Not at the joint (even though it has a crack it is solidly fastened to the hull). The movement was along the curve of the hull after it tapered away from the keel. Could this be caused by the cracked floor pan? Is it normal for boats with semi-deep keels like this to wobble a little and flex the hull? Should I reenforce the bilge cross bracing?

Sorry, I had a video of the movement, but can't seem to find it.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Cheers,

Dan.
Sailing Uma

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[Dave Cole]

I'm fairly certain that the floors in my 10M are solid fiberglass and I think there is a flange on the top of them.

 

I replaced two bilge pumps last year plus most of the wiring to the bilge pumps and a large part of the hose so I got up close and personal with the bilge.

 

I suspect that those wood floors are replacements.. 

 

Considering what you have already said, I think I would remove enough of the sole to get full access to the floors and do what you need to do so you can expose that fractured hull area so

that can be repaired.  

 

Dave

 

 

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Deckert

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:30 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

[George DuBose]

Didn't mean to start a new thread, but yes... that is what I did. I
needed to determine how thick the bilge "floor" not to confuse with the
real "floors" was so I could know how long to make the hole saws that I
need to put over and around the keel bolts and then saw down to the
lead. I used an 8mm hi-speed bit and drilled in several places.

I didn't hit any fiberous material only pure white "plastic". Then
silver bits that are lead.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Pearson poured a resin all over the
bilge and top of the keel for??? waterproofing?

If ANYONE can shine a light on this, I need to know. I would love to
talk to one of the workers who actually built Skylark or any P36.

My keel bolts are so covered with ??? frozen snot to quote Herreshoff,
that I can't get the nuts off of a couple of them and the last one aft
in the tiny space of the bilge is nearly impossible to get a tool
anywhere near it...

So when I am ready to drop the keel next October, I will cut holes
around each keel bolt down to the lead and then clean up all the
threads when the bolts are completely exposed and I can get at them
without standing on my head listening to myself curse like the angry
sailor I am...

[Dave Cole]

That is baffling..

Dave

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[Guy Johnson]

Dave; 

What hull number is your 10M?

Mine is #6 and the floors were roving over foam.

guy

---

From: dave...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:03:42 -0500

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

I think what you are seeing is the allowance for keel positioning.  As you might imagine these boats are not built to space shuttle type tolerances.  When  the keel is fitted to the stub there will be some alignment  to be made fore/aft and laterally.  I think the way they accommodated this was with oversized holes in the keel stub.  The keel has a little room to move to get it into alignment then, once it is aligned, the extra space in the holes is filled with resin.  Then over-sized washers are used that are hopefully larger than the oversized holes to spread the load beyond them.

Does that make sense and does it explain what you found with your probing?

Dan Pfeiffer

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

The floors in my 10M were fiberglass layups over a foam core.   The foam was dark yellow/brown, was open cell and soggy and about 1" thick.  There was 1/4 to 5/16 of glass on them.  I suspect they were made in place after the hull layup and hopefully before the hull was pulled from the mold but I doubt it.  They were made from roving and mat and maybe some cloth and the tabbing extended 4 to 5 inches onto the hull surface.  I replaced three of them when I did my mast step project in 2002.  They came out very easily as I recall.

Look at the photos here:

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/mast_step.htm

There are some wood braces on the underside of the cabin sole.  They are not part of the hull assembly. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[George DuBose]

I was under the assumption that the long pilot stud was to guide the
keel into the keel stub. I wouldn't have thought that there would me
that much lack of tolerance.

In any case, one of my drill holes was midway between two sets of
studs, so what the ... was MarineTex doing there, some inches from any
of the studs.

Next October, I will "get to the bottom" of this. I will be able to see
what is underneath the keel stub. I am photo-documenting this whole
procedure for anyone that
ever gets the urge to recaulk their leaking keel bolt holes.

In the meantime, I will continue Dremeling the frozen snot off the
studs that I can reach.

I bought a 90° air-powered wrench and a nut splitter. I am going to win
in the end...

[George DuBose]

Your 10M floors don't resemble Skylark's floors at all. I think the
P36-1 bilge sump is much deeper. After Easter, when I put my head back
in the hole, I will send a photo layout of the floors in all their
variations.

I am unemployed/forced retirement. I can sit here all day writing
emails. How do you guys manage...

[Dave Cole]

My 10M is #26.    The floors are fiberglass and not very thick.  I thought they were 3/8-1/2" thick.   There may have a foam core. If so it is thin foam and not at all obvious. 

I was under the impression that they were solid fiberglass and formed with a flange at the top to accept the sole.

 

Dave

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Guy Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 10:23 AM

[Dave Cole]

My boss is a overly demanding jerk.... but he does afford me some
liberties.. ( I'm self employed. ;-) )
Killing time before I go visit a customer.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of George DuBose
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 11:42 AM
To: d...@pfeiffer.net; pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

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[Jeff Griglack]

George,
Isn't the Netherlands an expensive place to retire?  I assumed you were over there for work.

[George DuBose]

"George,
Isn't the Netherlands an expensive place to retire? I assumed you were
over there for work."

Not that this has anything to do with keel wobble, but I met a German
woman in 1997. I was tired of the NYC rat race and thought I could get
work in Germany as a photographer or art director. Little did I know
that if one is over 40, there isn't much chance of getting a job at
all.

So I taught English and do the odd photo job. From doing album covers
to shooting stands for trade shows. Actually, the trade show
photography has just started and if I get one or two jobs a month, that
would be great.

On the bright side...I only pay 1500 a season for a slip is a 5 Gold
Anchor marina. 400 euros if I stay in the water over the winter or
another 1500 if I want to rent a cradle on land.

The harbormasters are super, they take special care of me 'cause I am
an American. They wanted to add the Stars and Stripes to the flags they
fly daily, but I didn't want them to do that until I got Skylark
completely legal. VAT paid, PCA passed and all that bureaucratic BS
that is so thick and heavy over here...but the US is catching up...

The Netherlands and the Dutch Friesen islands are a great cruising
ground. Scotland is 3-4 days away, Scandinavia is near. Skylark will be
going to The Channel Islands and Brittany for six weeks in July/August.
Ireland and the UK are also a few days to a week away.

I am going to start advertising for "boat swaps" again in 2016. I have
traded boats already with a guy in Sarasota. Take care of mine and I
will take care of yours...

Coming to the US for Easter and then back to my bilge...

[SteveA]

George,
yours sounds like an adventure.
lived in Europe for a few years. these days i've been thinking about South America
Part of my thinking has to do with a "frontier" of creativity.....
but share the same concerns about age/employment.
Heck it's been a long slog here in the States.....
if nothing else i'll take a walk down the Inca trail.
how long have you been an "expat"
Regards and fair winds

[RICHARD USEN]

I’ve never used a nut splitter but have split a lot of nuts using an electric drill and a small bit (1/8”?). I drilled a slew of holes close together (almost touching) all the way across the nut. I then used a cold chisel to split the nut . I like to start splitting the nut by aiming the chisel at the flat, which seems to work better but you can hammer down from the top.  Locate your ’split’ so you can put your chisel where it belongs.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

--

[Robert Franklin]

George D.

I don't know if you picked up on my response regarding the treatment by Pearson to the keel hull joint on my boat 1981?  If not, ask. I'll repeat. 

The Pearson work "gang" consisted of three young fellows, a boss and two helpers.  The boss (maybe 24 at the time) was Lionel Texiera.  I would call them a warranty team, but my boat was then 10 years old and the work was done, as a courtesy.  Can you imagine that! 

A couple years ago, when I wanted to get answers to some questions, similar to those now being asked about hull integrity, I tried to locate him.  I figured the Internet might produce a result even though 34 years had passed. I figured he would be in his late 50s ... if at all.

Lionel Texiera would be exactly the right person to know how the boats were built, but I was not successful.

Another thought is Rudy at D&R Marine. I haven't spoken to him in recent years. When Pearson closed, Rudy purchased quantities of supplies and for decades has been selling off the inventory applicable to Pearsons. Others on this forum probably have a more precise idea of what he is doing, what he has done and what is original connection to Pearson was. I recall he worked on the administrative side, not the mechanical.

My assumption for what its worth is that Pearson's assembly methods conformed to industry standards of the time.

Bob Franklin

[Robert Franklin]

Just found Lionel Texiera, 56, Bristol RI.  Bristol is very near where Pearson was building except this Lionel Texiera would have been 11 in 1981.

[Robert Franklin]

George,

I think I had my math wrong. 24 then would be 56 - 57 now, which is just what my search returns.  I was 34 at the time and its very likely Lionel was 10 years younger.

A better lead than this, I cannot give you.

Looks like it's "Teixiera", not "Texiera". 

Recalling his "fit" with the company, my guess is he stayed with Pearson until the end.  Anyone recall when the final year was?

If it happens you do locate him, I'd like to thank him again and catch up with him about the recent 30 plus years.

Bob Franklin

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

If you reach into a limber hole you will probably be able to feel and
squish the foam inside the floor. On mine and the other 10Ms I have
seen the cabin sole is not supported by the floors. I think early boats
lacked the wood cross brace stiffeners under the sole.

But who knows what's been changed over the years.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2015-03-25 13:44, Dave Cole wrote:

> My 10M is #26. The floors are fiberglass and not very thick. I thought
> they were 3/8-1/2" thick. There may have a foam core. If so it is thin
> foam and not at all obvious.
> I was under the impression that they were solid fiberglass and formed
> with a flange at the top to accept the sole.
>
> Dave
>

> -------------------------
> FROM: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Guy Johnson
> SENT: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 10:23 AM
> TO: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> SUBJECT: RE: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

>
> Dave;
> What hull number is your 10M?
> Mine is #6 and the floors were roving over foam.
>
> guy
>

> -------------------------

> From: dave...@gmail.com
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:03:42 -0500
>
> I'm fairly certain that the floors in my 10M are solid fiberglass and I
> think there is a flange on the top of them.
>
> I replaced two bilge pumps last year plus most of the wiring to the
> bilge pumps and a large part of the hose so I got up close and personal
> with the bilge.
>
> I suspect that those wood floors are replacements..
>
> Considering what you have already said, I think I would remove enough
> of the sole to get full access to the floors and do what you need to do
> so you can expose that fractured hull area so
> that can be repaired.
>
> Dave
>

> -------------------------
> FROM: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Daniel Deckert
> SENT: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:30 PM
> TO: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> SUBJECT: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

>> Sailing Uma [1]

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[Robert Franklin]

This thread began with Dan Deckert suggesting or asking whether keel wobble was normal?  I answer that as a complete amateur on that subject and only based on observation of my boat.

I don't think so.

Both sides of my keel hull joint look as tight today as the day the Pearson crew finished its work.  That's the basis for my conjecture.

Bob Franklin  

[Dave Cole]

Hi Dan,

You may be right. I may just not have noticed it.

What hull number is your 10M ?

I need to get to the boat to do some work on it but this cold weather just
doesn't want to leave.

Dave

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[Jeff Griglack]

I was going to say that you definitely had the math wrong.  I was in college, in 1981, and I was older than 11.

In early 1985, I was living in North Smithfield, RI, and working in Middletown, at the Newport navy base.  My commute took me past the Pearson factory, which appeared to be in full operation.  According to Wikipedia,  it shutdown in 1990.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_Yachts

Jeff

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

My 10M is #212. 1978.

Dan Pfeiffer

[Daniel Deckert]

Alright, as per Dan's advice I purchased the WS 105 system today and all the hardeners and fillers, cups, brushes etc today. West Marine didn't have the fabric instock and even if they did, it seems crazy expensive. I have all the power tools needed for the sanding and shaping. Will get the foam and plastic this week and start work this weekend. 

Any advice on where to buy the fiberglass fabric and what type will be best? Heavier fabric means less layers, lighter fabric is obviously cheaper. There seems to be some great deals of fabric on Amazon but I'm no expert. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M17VRAW/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3O10TT654K4UG&coliid=I2N9NX1M2I563W

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RDGJ000/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3O10TT654K4UG&coliid=IO75M9X3FYB9S

What am I looking for? West Marine wanted almost $800 for a 20yd roll of 738! 

I think Dan said he used about half of a roll for his floors. Mine are quite deeper and I will be doing more of them so maybe a whole 20yd roll will be good? 

The plan is to practice my technique on the water tanks and "bulk head" tabbing prior to tackling the floors. 

The aft 3 wood floors definitely don't seem factory finished, but they are glassed all the way up. I suppose someone could have done this without removing the entire cabin sole, including the furniture. The forward 3 that are fiberglass I think are original. I see no way to install them after the cabin sole was installed and I see no sign the cabin sole has been removed previously. They do seem a little under structured, but I'm no naval architect. 

Here is the link again to the album I've been posting to. 

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6zsUzuBljeBVmlfRlJiZ3YzQ2c&usp=sharing

I will update the pictures as I go. 

Thanks,
Dan.

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

I am traveling so dont have access to all my notes and info...maybe
tomorrow. I did have a source with better prices.

For now I'll tell you it will be better to have more thinner layers than
less thick. Easier to handle, wet out and lay over the forms and
easier to taper layers.

I have used a lot of west fabric and some others. The west stuff was
better. Not cheaper but easier to handle/wet/form. Shop for better
prices than west marine. I would get some rolls of 4“ 727 too. Easy and
handy.

How much 105 did you get? You need at least a gallon I think. Setup a
table with some heavy plastic fastened on it to use for pre-wetting
fabric.


Dan Pfeiffer

>> Sailing Uma [1]

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[Dave Cole]

Jamestown Distributors is a good place to buy Fiberglass supplies like cloth, tape and tools.

 

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_category.do?categoryName=Fiberglass%20Supplies&category=373&page=GRID

 

They probably aren't the cheapest but they have a good selection of materials.

 

For Epoxy I have purchased several gallons from Paul Oman's company.

 

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html

 

http://www.epoxyusa.com/

 

I've purchased several of his 1.5 gallon no blush epoxy packages. 

 

He also has all of the required fillers.   

 

The great thing about Paul Oman's company is that if you have a problem with his products at 7pm on Sunday, and you send him an email asking for help, there is a good chance he will

answer your email the same night! 

 

You may be really surprised how much epoxy you will need for this job.  

 

I think you will likely need several gallons of epoxy considering what I can see in the pictures.

 

If you don't buy a grinder with a vacuum attachment ( I don't have one.. ) consider taking a shop vac into the boat and position the suction hose to try and catch the grindings.  

 

And wear a good filtration mask and long sleeves and pants at the least.   Some type of head covering would be a good idea also.   A place to shower that is nearby

will also be desireable.

 

The biaxial tape and cloth is nice for tabbing repairs.

 

You have a bunch of work to do.

 

Dan's right.  Several thin layers are better than a couple of thick layers.

 

Epoxy gets warm as it cures and if it is too thick it will actually get hot (since the heat cannot escape from the middle of the layer easily) and speed the curing process even faster and you can get into trouble.    You don't want it to cure too fast.   If you mix the epoxy and the container you have it in is too big that will got hot as well and speed the cure.   Epoxy can be tricky.

 

That is why there are three temperature grades that Paul sells. 

 

Dave

 

 

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Deckert
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 7:21 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

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[d...@pfeiffer.net]

Some more...
Rollers, squeegees, wide plastic putty knife, will be more useful than
brushes.

Which hardener did you get? Use 206 or you will certainly have trouble
keeping up with the reaction. This will come out best if the epoxy work
is done as a continuous process starting with the fillets. You can mix
large batches if you get it spread quickly.

Hopefully this will all come naturally for you. This is a straight
forward job but it's big and not one I would want to be cutting my teeth
on. If you have to break it up into parts do whole floors rather than
coming back to add layers over the whole thing.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2015-03-25 20:21, Daniel Deckert wrote:

>> Sailing Uma [1]

>
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[RICHARD USEN]

One suggestion: use a flat pan to mix the resin. It minimizes the critical mass of the mix.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Cole

Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:01 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Guy Johnson]

I'd modify Dick's suggestion and say mix in a deep container and pour into a shallow pan. You'll find it easier to mix in the deep container.

Pouring into a second container should leave any unmixed corners behind and the shallow pan will keep the epoxy cooler. 

Of course use the correct speed hardener. 

From experience I can tell you 80 degrees, in the sun and fast hardener pretty much guarantees a runaway reaction. 

Guy 

---

From: use...@verizon.net

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:13:14 -0400

[Dave Cole]

I've heard of people keeping a bucket of ice water nearby to cool off batches.  Or just keep the ingredients cool in warm weather. 

 

A couple of years ago I was working in about 85 degree temps in the sun and I mixed up about 20 oz of epoxy in a tall vertical poly painting container since I needed to cover a lot of mat.

 

I had everything ready in the boat, so I knew I could apply it quickly. 

 

I mixed it at ground level.  The boat was on stands.   After a quick mix I climbed the ladder, got into the boat, and suddenly realized that my hand was beginning to burn!   The epoxy hit a critical temp and the mix was running away.   It was a bit of a panic since the mix was getting so hot I was concerned about the container melting - in the boat!   I wrapped the container with paper towel, quickly descended the ladder and put the container on the ground.  The poly container did not melt but it had to be close.   I mixed smaller batches after that and cut back on the mix ratio substantially.

 

If it is warm, use the summer blend! 

 

Dave

 

 

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Guy Johnson
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:42 AM

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

You can also control things with ice water in large zip-locks.  Don't fill them all the way and they can contour over odd shapes.  But first thing is to use the slow hardener and work on a cool day.  Fans too.  I have had an AC unit running in the boat.  For layups like this large batches tend to get spread out pretty quickly.  That's good.   I did a large shower pan in an ADA bath and was mixing 1/2 gallon at a time in a 1 gallon bucket.   I was a bit nervous over it at first.  But as soon as it was mixed it was poured over the fabric on the floor so it worked out fine.   The floor fabrication on the boat will not be like that. 

With the epoxy (unlike polyester) there is no cutting back on the mix ratio.  The ratio should remain as specified.  You control the speed with the hardener choice.  You can mix the hardeners to get something between.  But for large layups IO would just stick with the slow.    The important point to go for in hot coating is before the previous layer is too hard to dent with a finger nail.  Up to that point you still get chemical bonding between layers.  Maybe a little bit past that?  Tacky is good. 

Another idea.  Start by spreading a layer of epoxy over the hull surface to be tabbed to.  Add some 403 microfibers to that layer.  That will improve adhesion of the first layer to the hull.  Even if you just do a neat layer (no additives) it will help and make wetting out the fabric easier.

  Dan Pfeiffer

[Daniel Deckert]

Sounds good. Luckily I found a marine liquidator near the boat that sells any fiberglass fabric for $2/lbs. I will see what they have tomorrow. If they have something that will work, it will certainly save me a ton of money on fabric. 

Guy 

[Daniel Deckert]

Slightly off topic, Dan, I was liking though your sight some more. What size engine is that? It looks small. Does it preform well? 

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

Engine is a Volvo MD11 2 cylinder diesel. 23 hp. Power is fine.
Engine is original 1978 and has been very reliable for me since 2001.

Dan Pfeiffer

>> Sailing Uma [1]

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[Peter Ogilvie]

Always use the the manufacturers recommended resin to catalyst ratio with epoxy.  Cutting back or adding catalyst changes the chemical composition of the finished product and not for the better.  As others have said, use slow or fast hardener as the conditions dictate and don't leave it in a large container after mixing where the heat of the chemical reaction is concentrated and builds on itself.  Even in cold weather, a batch left to sit where the heat can concentrate will cause premature 'kick'.  With Polyester resin, you can play with the catalyst to resin ratio to control the 'kick' time but not with epoxy.

If you add fillers, use the appropriate type.  West Systems #4 I believe is colloidal silica which is hell for strong, some limit the slumping of the resin/filler for application on vertical surfaces, others are strictly for fairing or where compressibility/strength is not an issue like micro balloons.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

[Daniel Deckert]

Alright, it is DONE!

Thank you all SOO much for your help with this repair. Please check out our Facebook page for before and after photos. 

www.facebook.com/SailingUma

We ended up adding almost 1/2 inch of glass in the major areas for strength and used 7 gallons of epoxy. What a long process. 

Thanks again for all your help. I also realized that the boat only had 3 original floors, the fiberglass ones up by the mast step. So the 5 new ones we added aft should make the bilge that much stiffer. 

Cheers,
Dan.

@sailingUma 

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

Looks fantastic.  Excellent work.  Some day archeologists will find this strange rib structure after the rest of the boat has dissolved away and wonder what engineering geniuses built and and what it was for. 

Was taking out the old floors disturbingly easy?  What did you end up using for forms?  Did you have any heat issues? 

Again, great job.  I wish I could have been there to help.  Looks very satisfying. 

Dan Pfeiffer

--

[Daniel Deckert]

Dan. It was an interesting project for sure. Thanks again for all your help. The 3 wood floors came out with a quick hammer swing. I actually left the 3 original ones in place. I filled the backside with foam, making them almost 2 " thick. Then glassed over the whole thing. I ground out all the old tabbing on the originals though. I seemed a waste to toss the originals, the were almost 1" thick solid glass and still firmly attached to the keel. The new floors were 3 layers of 3/4" blue foam from Lowes. Overall I added about 5/8" of glass on the tops and sided of the new floors. Its hard to really judge because there are so many overlapping layers. The thinest place is between each floor, right in the middle, there is only 3 layers of 1808. So about 1/8-3/16". The rest is thick. I got a great deal on the glass ($2/lbs) and there was a epoxy distributer right up the road from the boat who sold me their mix for $45/gallon. The nasty part was grinding out all the old glass. That was something I never want to do again. But my girlfriend suited up and helped so we had most of it done in a day. 

Thanks again,

Dan. 

[Daniel Deckert]

Here is the video of how we ended up repairing the damaged floors. Thanks again for all your

help.http://youtu.be/OyKy-cDy6e8

[Guy Johnson]

nice video, thanks for sending it along. It looks like your floors are in very good shape now. 

Guy

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:43:18 -0700
> From: decker...@gmail.com
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: Pearson 36-1 Keel wobble

>
> Here is the video of how we ended up repairing the damaged floors. Thanks again for all your
>
> help.http://youtu.be/OyKy-cDy6e8
>

[Robert Franklin]

Daniel & Captain:

Superlatives are inadequate!

Not just the project, but the video.

What number is your P36-1?  I have no. 36.  George Debose has a P36-1 and is very active on our site. He wrote and had published a book describing his recent sail across the Atlantic - Northern Route.

There must be some kind of unusual affection for this model because like you, he has done a great deal of work. 

There is also a P36-1 owner, in your neighborhood who was cruising in the Bahamas and unhappy with the 6 foot draft. So he cut a foot off his lead keel and added wings. DIY. I have some photos.  It was an impressive job for someone like me who has some skill but with limits on energy, time and courage.

I prefer the original keep design, but I can see the practical purpose given his location. I wouldn't think a foot would make that difference, but if the bottom is 5 feet, of course it would.

Bob Franklin

Boston, MA

P36-1

Yanmar 3GM30F

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Daniel Deckert <decker...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is the video of how we ended up repairing the damaged floors. Thanks again for all your

help.http://youtu.be/OyKy-cDy6e8

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[George DuBose]

George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

To send me large files:
www.hightail.com/u/GeorgeDuBose510813

Personal website:
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY