Insurance survey requirement

[Dave Cole]

I have had Geico/Boat US insurance for 10+ years on my 10M.

I only have liability insurance.

Geico sent me a note stating that I will need a full survey for them to renew the policy next year in September.

There is no benefit to me of having a survey.  I know the boat very well. 

Also, will Geico require a survey every X years now?

I'm considering shopping for insurance because if this.  Id be better off paying more for insurance and not getting a survey.  

I would expect a survey to cost $500 plus.

Are you guys facing this same situation?

Other insurance companies may or may not require a survey.  I understand that Progressive may not.

Thoughts?

My main concern is liability insurance.

Dave

10M #26

[Andrew Boyle]

I've had Progressive for the 4 years I've owned my P27 and they've been great. They didn't require a survey to insure it initially and have not asked for one since.

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[john getz]

Geico/BoatUS asked for a survey for renewal this year. It's the first time I've been asked for one since 1989. A lot of insurance companies are dropping policies. Geico/BoatUS told me a few years ago, when I was looking for an insurer for a wooden boat, that they would not insure my P36 again if the policy lapsed because the boat was too old.

On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 9:26 AM Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Alptraveler]

Uh, oh....I also have boat us/geico but not just for 1 boat, x3-pearson,pontoon, Alcort sailboat...all 1980's era. I guess I too shall be expecting a survey request.

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[David Lidrbauch]

Yes,  Progressive, Geico, and whichever BOAT US uses, told me nothing older than 50 years old.   

My P35 #106, 1969 is insured through Markel (Hagerty).  They required a formal survey which cost me approx $700 four years ago.  Now that ive thoroughly updated it and once i seal off and vent out the CNG compartment, ill get another survey and ask for a reduction in premium.  (Dream a little dream...)

-David Lidrbauch

[Jim Keszenheimer]

Same for my ‘75 10m with Progressive. Geico wouldn’t insure me at all due to boat age.

Although one never knows what the future will bring.

Jim

On Sep 17, 2024, at 12:40 PM, Andrew Boyle <andrewja...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bob Maxwell]

I have a 1986 boat. Every 4 years or so, my insurance company requires me to do a self survey. It's a somewhat detailed questionnaire on the condition of relevant boat systems. I have to answer and sign. I also have to take half a dozen or so specific photos and send them to them. I think that's reasonable. A friend with an effectively identical boat and a different insurer had to do a full survey for this year. I think it's a growing requirement, but mostly by insurers who don't know boats. I'm fine doing what is being asked of me. A full survey tells me you need another provider.

Bob

[Dave Cole]

"A full survey tells me you need a different provider".

Thats what Im thinking.  I had a full survey 10 years ago and used that to get insurance.  

I have no problems taking pictures and answering questions.  But in their note they suggest that they may adjust my insurance cost based on the survey.

Geico insurance is pretty cheap but it doesnt look like a solution for the next 5+ years, so I might as well go on the hunt now.

Ive heard that State Farm will do boat insurance and I have two houses with their insurance so I will shop them as well.

Not sure I understand, but will Progressive not insure 50+ year old boats?

Thanks,

Dave

10M #26

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[David Lidrbauch]

One more thing:

In addition to liability, i think the "oil pollution liability" coverage is a must have.  If someone clobbers your boat on a mooring or it founders in a storm, the penalties for fuel spill cleanup can bankrupt the owner...

-David Lidrbauch

On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, 12:26 Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ed Henschel]

I had difficulty getting insurance at first when I purchased my 1974 10M last year, but Progressive came through.  I did have a survey performed during the purchase, but Progressive did not require one last year.  The policy auto-renewed  this May and I have not received any correspondence mentioning a survey or that my boat is now 50 years young.

I hope that remains the case with Progressive 🤞

regards,

/Ed

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[Daniel Hoffman]

It's concerning because I have GEICO too. I insured the boat for a modest replacement cost and have liability insurance that ties to my umbrella policy. I don't want to go through all that trouble either.

Have you called and asked them about doing a self-survey?

Dan 

Fourth and Goal 

31-2

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[John Getz]

I didn’t ask about doing a self survey. I have a friend who is a surveyor and did the job for me at a slightly reduced rate. It didn’t seem an unworthy idea since my last survey was around 1991.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2024, at 12:35 PM, Daniel Hoffman <rp51...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Getz]

Geico underwriters will probably change my rate. I’m going to have to wait and see. They’ve been very reasonable up to now.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2024, at 12:35 PM, Daniel Hoffman <rp51...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Last Resort]

Before anyone doesn't renew their present provider, keep in mind almost ALL insurance companies now won't touch anything over 30 years unless you're already with them, so BEWARE!!!!   My Skipper's Plan in Canada is a boat only company, and they still insure my 1990, but I only get market value now at the same price I used to pay for replacement cost. And a survey is required EVERY 5 years now. 

[Dave Cole]

Every 5 years....so thats a change from prior times?

If I had an agreed hull value or something like that, Id understand a periodic survey.  But Im liability only.  Plus they dont state when a survey will be required in the future.  Only that a survey is required for my renewal in about 12 months.

I have almost a year to shop for a better insurance situation.  So no hurry for me.  

I wont be cancelling until Im sure I have a better situation.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Jeff Griglack]

I also have Geico/Boat US.  I have not gotten a notice about a survey, yet.

A friend has/had Progressive for his 40-something foot catamaran.  He was hit by a guy on a jet ski and it put a hole about mid-way on one of his hulls.  The jet ski was uninsured.  Progressive paid for the repair, after much cajoling, but refused to pay to have the hull repainted, saying that they never pay for a full repaint.  The patch did not match, and is actually a really bad match.  He is still arguing with them about a year later, and is changing to another company.  So it seems that Progressive, like so many insurance companies, is great as long as you don't try to make a claim.

I talked to a couple of insurance agencies at last weekend's Newport Boat Show, and I need to talk with them in detail.  I may keep Geico, but I will need to either expand it or get some other coverage if I want to go to the Bahamas.  Right now, I have limitations of how far offshore and the range is between Maine and Florida.

The survey when I bought the boat was over $800.  If Geico requires one of those ever 5 years, that's another reason to find different representation.

Jeff

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| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

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|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
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[Dave Cole]

Fyi - Geico said the requirement for a survey before my 2025 renewal was stated in my 2024 renewal paperwork, which I basically ignored since I made sure to pay online, ahead of the renewal date.

Dave

10M #26

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[John Getz]

Same with me, Dave.  I’d recently been notified Geico was going to cancel because I’d not gotten the survey that I’d been notified in my 2024 paperwork. Never saw it. I had to jump on it. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2024, at 7:20 PM, Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[David Lidrbauch]

All these stories are lining up with the new reality: more extreme weather and shrinking boating population is pushing insurance co's to limit their exposure.   

Not much different from property  on the barrier beaches and in flood plains with very short survivability horizons.  

Plan for it: past history is not predictive.  Coverage will become more unsure each year and the hoops we need to jump through will get more restrictive as well.

-David Lidrbauch

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[Jeff Griglack]

I checked my Geico policy from last year (due for renewal in December).  It makes no mention of a periodic survey.  In fact, the only mention of a survey or surveyor is in the "Appraisal and Dispute" section where a marine surveyor can be used to settle any dispute in a repair cost.

Is the language different?  Did they use the word "survey," or did they use some other term?  I got the document online and did a search for this keyword.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guy Johnson]

I did the same thing and didn't find language for a required survey. Also have BoatUS/Geico insurance. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6 1973

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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Insurance survey requirement

 

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[John Getz]

In my case, it wasn’t a requirement for periodic survey, but a short paragraph in a notice of changes in the policy that stated that I would need a survey before this year’s renewal.

I missed it entirely.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2024, at 8:18 AM, Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[Dave Cole]

Im having an email exchange with Geico right now.

I responded to their "reminder to get a survey" email.

Im asking what will be the schedule for future surveys after I have the required survey completed this year.  They sidestepped my initial email question so I rephrased it and sent it back.

If they are going to be making this survey requirement frequent, I will have more motivation to get other insurance quotes.

Dave

10M #26

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[Dave Cole]

Just got a reply:

We received your inquiry about the survey requirement. Due to our guidelines we will require a survey at least every 5 years. Please contact us at 877-581-2628 if you have any questions or concerns.

So AT LEAST every 5 years.  Not good.  Time to shop.

Its really not about the cost, as much as it is about the hassle.

This is basically insurance company harassment.

Dave

10M #26

[Daniel Hoffman]

My GEICO insurance renewal came yesterday and it requires a "Condition and Evaluation survey" before I can renew next year.

The people who work at the marina say that it's because there are so many borderline or derelict boats out there.

On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, 4:27 PM Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Robert Franklin]

All insurance is predicated on the idea that those who are careful pay for those who are not. This is essential in any risk pooling concept. It is virtually foolproof over large numbers which suits the insurance company. For a conscientious boat owner ... not so much.

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--

Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047
617 277 5900 Cell
email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[john getz]

I had an in-water survey a week ago Monday, ten bucks a foot, uploaded it to them Friday, and was notified Wednesday that I'd be renewed when it comes up in November. Don't yet know if the terms have changed. I'm 78 so I doubt I'll have her five years hence but, if that happens, it seems not too much to pay to keep her insured. On the other hand a good friend who has a 2004 J109 in the same marina is paying State Farm 3/4 my Geico rate.

My replacement value is 25K, his is 200K.

Oh, survey said I needed new flares, extinguishers, a fire blanket, and new charts.

John G

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks a lot! I'll check those things out beforehand. I don't have a fire blanket at all.

Dan
Fourth and Goal
31-2

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[Dave Cole]

Who requires fire blankets?  

Dave

10M #26

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[Guy Johnson]

Who requires fire blankets?  

The surveyor who surveyed John's boat. 

That said, I have a fire blanket on Puffin and in the kitchen at home. 

For a stove fire or similar I think they make a lot of sense. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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Sent: Friday, September 27, 2024 2:01 PM

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Insurance survey requirement

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[Daniel Hoffman]

This is new for me too.

It's a good idea, but sounds a bit much.

Dan
Fourth and Goal

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[Dave Cole]

I didnt know that his surveyor was authorized to establish standards.  😄

This is why Im not thrilled with surveys.  

The last time I had a survey, the surveyor said a bulkhead was beginning to delaminate.  The insurance company said it needed to be replaced before they could insure the boat.

I asked the surveyor if he thought it was a structural problem with the boat.  He said no.

I forwarded his response to the insurance company, they insured the boat without any repairs. 

Years later I replaced the entire bulkhead, just because it was eventually going to be a problem and thats what I do.   Pearson sometimes used poor quality plywood.  

Dave

10M #26

On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 2:20 PM Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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[John Getz]

It was a suggestion, not a requirement. And since I have one in my very old summer cottage, it seemed not unwise. 16 bucks at Home Depot. And I’ve since talked to a couple other Boat owners who said, oh yeah, I’ve got one of those.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2024, at 11:47 AM, Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dave Cole]

Got it.. You said you "needed" it.  I thought that meant it was required.

Its like fire extinguishers, how many is too many.  A fire blanket might be a good idea, or it might be something else to get in the way.  

Dave

10M #26

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[john getz]

That's a different one. The USCG requires for boats 26' to 40' 2 fire extinguishers, or 1 in an enclosed machinery space. The ABYC, and the surveyor, recommend 3, which seems a little nuts on an old Pearson, or any old boat, with no aft cabin.

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[Guy Johnson]

I think the problem comes when a surveyor recommends something in writing and then the insurance company requires it.

Guy puffin 10 M #6

On Sep 27, 2024, at 7:59 PM, john getz <jwg...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[john getz]

Insurors made a weasley statement saying they wouldn't cover any problem that resulted in my not having resolved the recommendations, while I had included with the survey a statement that I had already done so.

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[Dave Cole]

And that was BoatUS/Geico?  

Dave

10M #26

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[john getz]

It was.

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[Robert Franklin]

Here is a naive question. Why insure? I realize there are "must have" situations, i.e. required by marina, required by yacht club.  I can't argue those. 

Is there anyone on this thread who insures without being required to because he/she believes it is prudent to do so?d

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[Guy Johnson]

Yes! Liability and fuel spill. 

Guy

On Sep 28, 2024, at 6:44 PM, Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[john getz]

Yes, liability and fuel spill. Docked in a busy and crowded marina that, of course, demands one be insured, hoping that the boat in the next slip is properly insured should they, say, burst into flame, or lose power or control coming into their adjacent slip.

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[Alptraveler]

Pearson 31-2,  we have 5 extinguishers(v berth,sink,companionway,x2 quarter berth) and....a fire blanket. Excessive,maybe....the extinguishers last something like 30 sec, I have them so why not keep them in the boat. As a female who is often in the slip alone, I also count on a fire extinguisher to buy me time should someone unwanted board my boat, tho wasp spray does a good job (not a gun owner for those of you who take that appraoch). So, interesting info here. Last fall I took all of my fire extinguishers and fire blankets (1 for the boat and 1 for home stove/bbq grill),house and boat, to the local fire department. No problem on confirming extinguishers were valid. The fire blankets....they had zero idea about them at all. Whaaaat?? A fire department not knowing about them but it seems like Geico does.

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[Pauleen Ward Brown]

Shame on them! They are probably landlubbers anyway and know nothing about sailboats! 

Pauleen 

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[Jeff Griglack]

I think I have 6 fire extinguishers on my boat because I know that each one doesn't last very long.  I never thought of using them for self defense, but I wanted to make sure that I was covered for fire.

I went to the boat show a couple of weeks ago and saw some new boats with holes in the engine compartment hatch that allowed you to put a fire extinguisher nozzle in without opening the compartment.  I have thought that is a good idea and would be easy to do on my boat.  Thoughts on this?

And, in keeping with the original subject, I have not yet received the renewal notice from Geico for 2025.  I think my insurance comes up in December.  We'll see if they want another survey.  I like the idea of the "in water" survey mentioned earlier.  When I bought the boat, the full survey cost about what I pay for insurance.

To answer Bob's question:  I have a private mooring and I have insurance, so I guess I don't _need_ to have insurance.  I would like to take the boat outside of the range listed on my insurance (current policy covers coastal from Maine to Florida east coast), so I would have to expand the range or get other insurance.  Finding insurance for these old boats (or, at least, old, US flagged old boats) has become difficult.  I have considered dropping it back to liability and spill only insurance.  We all know Bob's views on insurance, and I don't disagree with them, but my view is that insurance is there so I can ask somebody else to assume some of my risk.  I am willing to pay to do that in many cases.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Dave Cole]

Fire extinguishers...

The problem with dry powder extinguishers is that they do a lot of damage.  Its my understanding that if you discharge one when the engine is running, at the engine, its likely junk.

The powder is corrosive so it tends to trash electrical systems.  

I was looking at installing one or more CO2 extinguishers.  They dont destroy things.  

The extinguishers are refillable and need to be certified every few years.  They dont need to be replaced periodically per the new Coast Guard regs.  You can buy used CO2 extinguishers cheaply and then have them recertified.

In the end I ran out of time and bought two new  5 lb dry powder extinguishers from Costco to get legal with the Coast Guard.  The old boat units are in my shop.  I do occasional welding.

My plans still involve a CO2 extinguisher next to the companionway for the engine.

One thing to consider:  How much/many fire extinguishers can you discharge in a boat and still survive the discharge?   That white powder fogs the air.  Ive discharged dry powder extinguishers before and I doubt I could discharge two 5lb dry powder units inside the boat and then get out without major lung damage, suffocation, etc.

The boat might survive, but I might not.

Dave

10M #26

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[john getz]

So BoatUS/Geico will renew with the only change being an increase in value to 25K, previously 23K. I still have time to see if Allstate (my friend had mistakenly told me his was State Farm) might give me a better deal. Will I?

In the 41 years I've had ALICE I've had one fire. While moored at Allen Island in Maine in the 80's the alcohol stove oven, over-primed by my then wife, flared up from the fiberglass pan beneath it. I grabbed the companionway extinguisher and it was out in less than ten seconds. The fire blanket would be the go-to now. There was no breeze to speak of so the powder stayed close, we swept it up and proceeded to cook the crab and lobster we'd bought fresh off a passing lobster boat and its camp on the adjacent Benner island, a beautiful spot if you've never been. I had an automatic Halon system in the engine area back then but when I re-powered it had corroded and Halon was out of favor so I've nothing in there now.

I have an extinguisher in the forepeak and one on the companionway steps. I suppose I'll now keep a third in a cockpit locker. Aside from the alcohol stove the only thing I could imagine starting a fire would be an untended open flame, like a candle, and that's not happening.

John Getz

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[Dave Cole]

I'm not so sure a fire blanket would put out an alcohol fire in a fiberglass pan unless you could cover it entirely.

Would you be able to cover it completely if the stove is above it?    Fire blankets work by depriving the oxygen that feeds the fire.

I think they would work well for covering a fry pan full of burning oil.

I think you grabbed the right thing, the fire extinguisher.

Dave

10M #26

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[Dave Cole]

Back on the topic of insurance.   

It just so happens that my Auto Owners Car insurance policy came due and they jacked up my rates by over 25% for no reason.  

My credit rating has improved and we have had zero tickets or accidents for 15+ years.  

I use an insurance broker and asked them for help with my car insurance.

They came back with a quote from Progressive that was less than half what Auto Owners wanted to charge me.

So, since I am now insured with Progressive on my cars, I will see if they will insure my '74 10M without a survey.

I'll let you know what happens.  

Dave

10M #26

[Jeff Griglack]

I'm not sure if I mentioned it here, but a friend had Progressive Insurance on his 40-something foot catamaran when an uninsured jet ski put a hole in the side of his boat.  They paid for the repair, but fought with him on every bill and then refused to repaint the hull (only did the patched area).  The adjuster admitted to him that, to his knowledge, Progressive has paid to paint the whole hull. He is changing insurers.

Insurance is useless if the insurance company doesn't put things back to how they were. 

Disclaimer: I have never had a boat claim, do I don't know how my current insurer would be either. 

Jeff

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[Bob Maxwell]

FWIW, I have Atlantic Specialty Insurance on my 1986 Express 37 (not a Pearson). I suffered a lightning strike several years ago. The hull suffered no damage, but all the electronics were fried and all standing rigging was replaced including the roller furler. They paid for everything without question. As I noted earlier, all they asked for to date is periodic self-surveys - answer a questionnaire and provide specific requested photos every few years. I think there's value going with an insurance company that understands boats.

Re Geico - We got a policy from them a couple years ago for our cars and house. We got a discount for bundling. Shortly after signing up, they sent an "inspector" out to examine the outside of our house. They reported the roof was shot and immediately pulled the insurance on the house and withdrew the bundled discount on the cars. I had a roof guy out and he said the roof was fine and good for at least another 5-10 years. He said he'd take my money to replace it if I insisted, but he'd feel guilty about it. Separately, my son had Geico for his car. He was hit from behind - totally the other guy's fault. Geico jacked my son's rate because he had "been in an accident". Geico is firmly on my never again for anything list. I don't understand Boat US partnering with them.

Bob

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[john getz]

Cruising World email linked these guys last week. Haven't checked on them yet.

https://www.risk-strategies.com/industries/marine-yacht/individuals

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[Dave Cole]

Unfortunately I can find good and bad stories for each insurance company I have considered. 

Dave. 10M #26

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[Jeff Griglack]

Dave,

Yeah, on this, I agree with Bob.  Insurance companies are just there to separate you from your money.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

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| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[Jeff]

What was the outcome here?

I recently received a letter from Geico requiring me to get a survey for my boat as well.  I had the survey done yesterday.  My understanding is that Boat US insurance used to pay for required surveys, but Geico will not.  Also, and this is pretty funny, the letter to me tells me that my premium has increased due to additional costs, but then, in the next line, tells me that my premium has gone down (which is not true).

Somebody sent a link to "Risk Strategies," but has anybody contacted them?

Happy holiday and thanks,

Jeff

[Dave Cole]

I have not obtained the required survey.  I have until Sept in order to obtain it per BoatUS.

Did they require you to immediately get a survey?  What did that cost?

BoatUS/Geico said I would need a survey every few years   That significantly increases my overall insurance cost.  

My auto insurance rates went way up this fall for no reason at all (Auto owners).  Something like 40%.   I use a broker and Progressive offered a much less expensive policy.   So I now have them for car insurance.  Im going to see if I can get boat insurance from them as well.  

Ill let you know what happens.

Dave

10M #26

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[john getz]

BoatUS/Geico told me a survey every 5 years now. The rate went up a very small amount. My State Farm auto went down?

John Getz

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[Kevin O’Brien]

I use Risk Strategies - they have been excellent. Scott Stusek is my agent, and has handheld me through getting insurance when nobody else would.

Kevin O'Brien
Email: kevin.mor...@gmail.com