Pearson 303 prop shaft removal

[Denis Furman]

Thinking of replacing the cutlass bearings and changing from conventional gland seal to something modern and dry. Is there any way of taking the prop shaft out other than pulling the engine first? 

Thanks!

[Bill Robart]

I'm not familiar with the clearance issues on a P303 but removing the engine is generally to perform work on the shaft.  What is necessary is that the shaft be moved aft far enough to remove the flange (with a wheel puller) from the shaft so the new parts can be installed. Sliding the shaft aft is simple so long as the rudder isn't in the way. If it is then the rudder may have to be removed. On the P-33-1 the rudder had to be removed to even remove the prop (personal experience). On the P-36-2 the prop is several feet in front of the rudder so the rudder doesn't come into play (but does make minimal speed handling "interesting").

Removing the engine is a last resort usually but not all the difficult and would make doing a stuffing box replacement a lot easier.

Bill

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Denis Furman <denis...@live.com> wrote:

Thinking of replacing the cutlass bearings and changing from conventional gland seal to something modern and dry. Is there any way of taking the prop shaft out other than pulling the engine first? 

Thanks!

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Prop shaft should be offset to one side of skeg.  It should clear the skeg when you remove it if you take the prop off or perhaps if you have a two bladed prop.  Have a look at the clearance.  You'll have to get the prop shaft flange off the shaft first. 

Dan Pfeiffer 

 

On 2016-12-06 14:23, Denis Furman wrote:

Thinking of replacing the cutlass bearings and changing from conventional gland seal to something modern and dry. Is there any way of taking the prop shaft out other than pulling the engine first? 

 

Thanks!

 

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[Richard]

Mine was done by a boat yard. They did not remove the engine.

 

Richard Tiernan

Buccaneer

P303 #162

Shelter Island, NY

[Denis Furman]

Hi Dan

Yes I was told that many (but not all) boats with skeg have stern  tube slightly offset in order to facilitate easy removal / installation of shafts and bearings. I'm not sure though if 303 is one of them?  I was also told that on some boats a shaft can be slid forwards under the engine but that is certainly not my case.

My boat has 3-blades fixed prop so it will have to be removed. I will probably leave this job till next winter, jus trying to predict the amount of work to be done.

Regards

Denis

[Bob Maxwell]

Not familiar with a 303, but in general, you can get the coupling off with the engine in place.
 
Unbolt the coupling and slide the shaft aft a bit.  If there's a set screw in the shaft side of the coupling, loosen or remove it.
Put a spacer between the coupling halves that is slightly smaller in diameter than the shaft. A spare socket works well.

Clamp the coupling halves together over the spacer.  You will likely need bolts longer than the originals to get it started. The spacer will drive the shaft out of the coupling as the bolts are tightened.

If the shaft is still engaged in the coupling, open up and install another spacer or a longer one.  Re-tighten.

It's time consuming, but it works.

On a P30, you need to drop the rudder to get the shaft all the way out.

Bob

former P30

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[Denis Furman]

Dan,

Thats right, the stern tube is noticeably offset. I will try to remove the prop and shaft next weekend. For today I've undone the prop nut and sprayed some WD40 on the coupling bolts hoping it will help. 

The subject of shaft seals is widely discussed and it easy to get confused. I love simplicity of the traditional seal, but hate having water in the bilge. What do you think about the Volvo type shaft seals? They are  so much smaller, lighter. simpler and cheaper than most of existing designs, it makes me wander if they are really good?

If Volvo seals were bad, major yards like Hallberg Rassy would not be putting them in to their boats, but there should be something that makes other more expensive alternatives to find their market. There is a good article in the PBO describing most of the modern designs.  If my understanding is correct, the only limitations of Volvo seals are the shaft diameter  and use of flexible couplings. I will need to measure diameters of the stern tube and the shaft to see if there is a suitable seal in the Volvo range. 

Meanwhile  coarse sanding of the bottom is completed, big day today!

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:45:34 PM UTC+2, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Forget the WD40.   Kids stuff.  Get some PB Blaster.  It was designed to get the stuck tops off of rusty cans of WD40.  Make sure it's the PB Blaster penetrating oil.  They also make a general lube that is a lot like WD40 and some others.   The general lubes are great for general stuff and cleaning up corrosion - I use a lot of it.  But they are not nearly as good at penetrating.   Spray it and let it sit a while and spray it again and let it sit a while more.  As in a few days if you can.  Some heat can help too but that can be tricky in confined space.  Also, use the best fitting wrench you can get.  If it's sockets use 6 point rather than 12 point if you have them.  They fit better and are less likely to strip bolt heads.  When you go to pull the prop use a puller.  Do not try to remove the prop with a hammer.  That will wreck your transmission.  Heat hear may be easier to apply.   But the puller is the way to go.  
I have the conventional stuffing box but switched to GFO Gore packing which reduces drips considerably. 
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/stuffing_box.htm
I spray coated my stuffing box with McLube back when I replaced the hose in 2003 or so.  Still looks like it did then.  I am in fresh water.  Links on above page are old.  Try this for Gore GFO packing...
http://gfopacking.com/

I would consider that before dropping a lot of coin on something fancy and more complicated.  I don't know about the Volvo seal.  I know about the PSS.  Volvo is a lip seal, PSS is a face seal.  The conventional stuffing box is a gland seal.  I like simple.  Simple is more reliable.  What is the failure mode of the various choices?  I have heard tale of bellows failing and flooding the boat with PSS type systems.   And that's not good...

Dan Pfeiffer

[Last Resort]

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboard-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-for-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu-Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=item4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxIML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

[Bob Maxwell]

Agree with tapping after the puller is tight.  If that doesn't do it, try heat while puller is tight.

Watch toes.  When the prop frees, it sometimes lets go with a bang and ends up on the ground with the puller.

Bob

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboard-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-for-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu-Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=item4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxIML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

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[Denis Furman]

Hi Bob

When removing things like and alternator pulley or pump impeller we usually loose a nut by one or two turns and leave it in place. When the thing eventually comes loose it clicks but stays in place. A puller my fall down though. I guess same precaution can be used on propellers, can it?

Denis

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 1:37:11 PM UTC+2, Shenanigan940 wrote:

Agree with tapping after the puller is tight.  If that doesn't do it, try heat while puller is tight.

Watch toes.  When the prop frees, it sometimes lets go with a bang and ends up on the ground with the puller.

Bob

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboard-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-for-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu-Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=item4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxIML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

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[Denis Furman]

Dan,

Thank you for your expertise! My gland seal looked worse then yours on "before" picture - all covered in oxide and dirt. In July when we changed the packing it took us half a day to undo the lock nut and the gland with wire brush, WD40, heat gun and longest pipe wrench we could find in the marina. The idea of Gore Tex packing is simply great - we can retain the most reliable seal and while having dry bilge, and save some cash! Couldn't be better.

I went to every local chandlery asking for  PB Blaster and MacLube, those things do not exist here. I'd by some when I was in US last summer if I knew about it. Ordering from e-bay is not an option as hazardous cargoes are not accepted for air transportation. However I'll have to rely on WD40 and the heat gun. I'll use my Snap-On 6-point impact sockets (black ones), they are probably best.

Friend of mine who runs the charter company will lend me his puller so I'm all set for the weekend project, will keep you posted. 

Regards

Denis

[Bob Maxwell]

Good point.  Leaving the nut on loosely would keep the prop from falling, but as you note, the puller will likely still drop free.

Regarding your other post, in this area, PB Blaster is available at Home Depot.

Bob

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[George DuBose]

PB Blaster vs WD40

I read a report in Practical Boatowner that a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF worked as well as any of the rust dis-solvers.

-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Bob Maxwell]

Mike Mayer posted this summary on this list a few years ago.  Agrees with your comment.

Bob

Penetrating Oils

Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.

They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used ...................516 pounds

WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds

PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds

Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds

Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds

ATF*-Acetone mix........53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.

Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.

*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid

-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234

Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Denis Furman]

Thanks Bob. I'm in Turkey, unfortunately no Home Depot or Benny's around here. Not even a WestMarine any more. When in US, i stocked all the imaginable stuff like paints, varnish, gorilla tape and on on but I didn't know about the Blaster then.

Regarding the propeller I read an article by David Pascoe which explains the shaft alignment. It says "Distance between strut and prop hub should be no more than 50% of shaft diameter."

I looking at the picture below I'd  estimate this distance to be 2,5 diameters in my case. I personally feel there would be less load on the cutlass bearing if I chop two inches off the shaft (or slide it deeper in to the coupling if there is room). What do you gentlemen think, should I cut the shaft in order to bring the prop closer to the stern tube? 

- show quoted text -

[Phong Do]

I used ATF and actetone for my siezed A4 engine studs. 

Works like magic.

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[George DuBose]

From the photos sent, I don't see 2-1/2" between the prop and the cutless bearing even with the zinc removed. If you cut the prop shaft, you would want to cut the end next to the transmission and then extend the keyway. That's a job for a machinist. Putting the zinc BEFORE the "P" strut might keep the prop and shaft from pulling out in case of a coupling failure.

Try the 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. That you can get in Turkey.

If you get to The Netherlands, give me a holler. Skylark is on the IJsselmeer.

-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234

[Richard]

I had my Cutlass bearing replaced and I changed my prop from a fixed one to a 2 blade feathering Maxiprop. As I recall the yard also replaced the shaft with a slightly longer stainless steel one so I  would have room to put a zinc on the shaft. It has worked fine.

 

Richard Tiernan

Buccaneer

P303 #162

Shelter Island, NY

 

From: Denis Furman

Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 10:06 AM

To: pearson-boats

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal

 

Thanks Bob. I'm in Turkey, unfortunately no Home Depot or Benny's around here. Not even a WestMarine any more. When in US, i stocked all the imaginable stuff like paints, varnish, gorilla tape and on on but I didn't know about the Blaster then.

 

Regarding the propeller I read an article by David Pascoe which explains the shaft alignment. It says "Distance between strut and prop hub should be no more than 50% of shaft diameter."

I looking at the picture below I'd  estimate this distance to be 2,5 diameters in my case. I personally feel there would be less load on the cutlass bearing if I chop two inches off the shaft (or slide it deeper in to the coupling if there is room). What do you gentlemen think, should I cut the shaft in order to bring the prop closer to the stern tube?

[Denis Furman]

Hello

Thanks for the invitation, will certainly drop you a line if in the Netherlands.

It may be because of the angle the distance doesn't look like a lot,  but there is at least 4-5 cm, will measure tomorrow. There is no strut on P303 (picture is 4 months old, there is no paint any more). I jut thought why not fix an anode inboard and then slide the gland seal hose over it? I understand it sounds strange but why not? It would  work the same way as if fixed in front of strut preventing the shaft from sliding backwards, it would also do it's protection job exactly where it is needed most - stagnant water inside the stern tube. Yes it will be out of sight, but aren't engine anodes out of sight too? Any thoughts?

P.S. Just watched your video on Vimeo, nice paintwork and what a headroom for the LOA! What is the red boat next to yours? I liked the design of its stern arch. Would you mind I if ask you to take a picture when you have a chance? 

I'll mix the ATF/acetone  tomorrow first thing after returning to my town and pour it on my tranny coupling. Is there a commonly used name for such a mixture like B52 or Long Island Ice Tea? (Can't believe the WD40 is this bad!)

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Lots of good info coming into this thread...

You might be able to find a penetrating oil at an auto parts store.  As for the home brew, I have heard the same about their effectiveness.  Worth a try.  There are basically two types of ATF, I wonder if it matters which.   And I wonder if you should be mixing small batches as needed because the acetone will evaporate out of the mix?  Or does it bind up with the ATF?  I am not a chemist but I know acetone evaporates quite quickly by itself.   I sometimes use lacquer thinner with epoxy to get deeper penetration into wood as recommended by West System. But they said it works because the lacquer thinner evaporates out of the mix before the epoxy cures. 

You have something of a special case with the 303 and fitting a prop shaft zinc since it does not have a conventional strut.  I think the 33-2 may be the same.  Depending on the prop and it's mount there may be an option to have a zinc that mount to the hub after the prop.  My prop has that though I also have a shaft zinc ahead of the strut.  

I used to use that trick of loosening the retaining nut but not removing to let things unseat with steering wheels in cars.  Loosened the retaining nut then after some driving the wheel would break loose without disengaging from the spines because the nut was still there.  Worked OK to my primitive teenage mind (until I got a proper puller) but I don't know that this would be as benign with something that spins at a high rate? 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Denis Furman]

Hi 

Thanks everyone for recommendations!

Unfortunately the ATF / Acetone mixture didn't work for me. It could be wrong type of ATF but two fluids did not wish to mix. It is not just a difference in specific gravity,  they behaved like oil and water. You mx them and you have bubbles oil floating in acetone. You shake harder and you have finer bubbles but is still a suspension rather than diffusion.  Ot separates instantly once leave it alone and acetone evaporates instantly.  May be this is the way it is supposed to work? 

The method of putting a  spacer between two couplings (Transmission and shaft) and pulling them together by longer bolts didn't work too. The force which can be generated before the flanges start to distort is not enough. What a pity, It did sound like great know-how.
However the prop was removed with oversized puller. It took loads of force and a bit of hammering (on the puller, not the prop) to take it off! I couldn't remove the coupling from the shaft and will probably abandon hope. I was prepared to take the engine out anyway so I've done that on Saturday - 4 hours job with all preparations. Once  the engine was out I didn't need to remove the coupling any longer.  I pulled the shaft inside.

Next jobs are  

• pull the old cutless  (or cutlass???) bearing, 
• clean the bilges, 
• repair broken stud on one of engine mounts, 
• rearrange wiring, 
• service seacocks for engine cooling water and sink drain, 
• clean and spray-paint the engine and more..
  
• Measure the gland seal and order Gore packing
• Order new cutless bearing
• Polish the shaft

BTW - having the bronze shaft and prop do I need to put any anodes on them?

-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234

Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Interesting about atf/acetone...

As for prop pulling, hammering the puller is no different than hammering
the prop. If the coupler was connected to the transmission the
hammering could have easily caused damage to the bearings. Some light
tapping on hub to get prop to pop with puller is Ok but that should be
on the hub and perpendicular to shaft. It could also unseat the coupler
from the shaft. Check that out. Use a puller to remove coupler and
take to a machine shop to remount and get it faced. That's when they
put ot in a lathe and mill the face of the coupler to be truly
perpendicular to shaft as mounted.

As for trans bearings, I would be worried if shaft was connected when
hammering. Harder to check.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2016-12-12 08:25, Denis Furman wrote:
> Hi
>
> Thanks everyone for recommendations!
>
> Unfortunately the ATF / Acetone mixture didn't work for me. It could
> be wrong type of ATF but two fluids did not wish to mix. It is not
> just a difference in specific gravity, they behaved like oil and
> water. You mx them and you have bubbles oil floating in acetone. You
> shake harder and you have finer bubbles but is still a suspension
> rather than diffusion. Ot separates instantly once leave it alone and
> acetone evaporates instantly. May be this is the way it is supposed
> to work?
> The method of putting a spacer between two couplings (Transmission
> and shaft) and pulling them together by longer bolts didn't work too.
> The force which can be generated before the flanges start to distort
> is not enough. What a pity, It did sound like great know-how.
> However the prop was removed with oversized puller. It took loads of
> force and a bit of hammering (on the puller, not the prop) to take it
> off! I couldn't remove the coupling from the shaft and will probably
> abandon hope. I was prepared to take the engine out anyway so I've
> done that on Saturday - 4 hours job with all preparations. Once the
> engine was out I didn't need to remove the coupling any longer. I
> pulled the shaft inside.
>
> Next jobs are
>

> * pull the old cutless (or cutlass???) bearing,
> * clean the bilges,
> * repair broken stud on one of engine mounts,
> * rearrange wiring,
> * service seacocks for engine cooling water and sink drain,
>
> * clean and spray-paint the engine and more..
> * Measure the gland seal and order Gore packing
> * Order new cutless bearing
> * Polish the shaft

>
> BTW - having the bronze shaft and prop do I need to put any anodes on
> them?
>
> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 3:52:29 PM UTC+2, Shenanigan940
> wrote:
>
>> Mike Mayer posted this summary on this list a few years ago. Agrees
>> with your comment.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Penetrating Oils
>> Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on
>> various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you
>> might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates
>> for break out torque on rusted nuts.
>> They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional
>> machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular
>> penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the
>> nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.
>> *Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*
>> No Oil used ...................516 pounds
>> WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
>> PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
>> Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
>> Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds

>> ATF*-ACETONE MIX........53 POUNDS

>> [1] ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK

>> though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can
>> get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around
>> the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration
>> will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit
>> more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "pearson-boats" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to pearson-boat...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to pearso...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/pearson-boats

>> [2].
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [3].

> --
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>
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>
> --
> George DuBose
> Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
> D-50969 Cologne, Germany
> Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
> Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443
>
> Video interview on YouTube:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be [4]

>
> Personal website:
> http://www.george-dubose.com
>
> Galleries:

> www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose [5]
> http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer [6]
> http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose [7]

>
> Short video of Skylark's vacation:
> https://vimeo.com/133183259
> Password: SkylarkNY
>
> S/V Skylark
> Compagnieshaven
> Enkhuizen, NL
>
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [3].

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> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboard-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-for-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu-Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=item4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxIML&amp;vxp=mtr
> [2] https://groups.google.com/group/pearson-boats
> [3] https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&amp;feature=youtu.be
> [5] http://www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
> [6] http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
> [7] http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

[Guy Johnson]

Acetone mixes with water, doesn't it? If that's true perhaps it's not that surprising that it doesn't mix well with ATF. I theorize the way the the mixture works is the acetone wicks into the small spaces drawing the oil in with it and as the acetone evaporates additional oil is drawn into the joint and the oil is left behind. 

Diesel fuel is slippery and maybe there is a fast evaporating solvent that mixes with diesel? 

Only problem I see with that is I hate the smell of diesel. 

Marvel Mystery Oil cut with acetone or lacquer thinner??? 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Denis Furman <denis...@live.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 8:25 AM
To: pearson-boats
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal - DONE

 

[Richard S. Usen]

Well done! You’ve discovered how much force is necessary to pull props and couplings. The couplings are much worse. Once you get the engine lifted/pulled, you can bring the shaft and coupling to a machine shop and their hydraulic press will make short work of removing the coupling IF you can pull the two setscrews.  If you grease the setscrews after you replace them, the next time you might be able to pull the coupling in the cave. If you grease and replace them, you’ll likely never have to pull the coupling in your lifetime. If you don’t, you’ll likely be doing this next year. …...

use...@verizon.net
Dick Usen
T-33 Hopscotch

<20161209_132143.jpg><20161209_132252.jpg><20161210_172901.jpg><20161210_140951.jpg><20161210_140938.jpg>

[George DuBose]

When using a prop puller or a gear puller, I find that tightening the puller as much as possible and then gently heating the prop works without resorting to a hammer.

Also, when removing a flange off the prop shaft, the trick of inserting a large socket (bit smaller OD than the prop shaft) and then using four long bolts, lots of washers and nuts did the trick for me. One has to be sure to tighten all four bolts evenly all around and keep tightening all four. I can't imagine a flange distorting if all the bolts are torqued the same.

However, Skylark is going to be wearing a short split coupling that should make the above unnecessary. I powdercoated the flange, but why do they use such mild steel for the set screws? Guaranteed to rust and break when frozen. Try boring out a broken set screw, lying on your stomach over the fuel tank.

Denis wrote:

BTW - having the bronze shaft and prop do I need to put any anodes on them?

Hmm, I think the anodes protect anything electrically connected to the engine, prop shaft and prop. Having said that, my mechanic while adjusting the alignment told me that I didn't need to keep electrical continuity between the engine and the prop shaft and removed the spring that was inside the flexible coupling.

Any comments?

[George DuBose]

Here's a photo of a short split coupling. Should avoid a lot of hassle in the engine compartment.

On 12/12/16 2:25 PM, Denis Furman wrote:

[Jeff Griglack]

Install a zinc anode.

Bronze is an alloy of copper, tin, and some other metal (aluminum, manganese, nickel or zinc).  The purpose of the exposed zinc anode is to let it sacrifice electrons and prevent galvanic corrosion.  If you leave the zinc off, you run an increased risk of one of the metals that are part of the shaft giving up electrons instead.  The $8 or $10 you spend on a zinc is cheap insurance.  The zinc on my prop shaft has lasted 3 years, but I'll replace it next year.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

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[Denis Furman]

Hi Jeff

I did install the shaft anode first thing when bought this boat in July, cost was not an issue. But the boat never had any protection. Not a hull anode, no prop anode and no shaft anode. And no engine anodes too! That is what makes me wonder if it needs any anodes at all? (Ok, it may have had a shaft anode in the past at some stage)

Having said that, the aluminum mast base and the mast itself are badly corroded where they were submerged in to bilge water. Is there such thing as mast anode?

Another observation  - with the shaft anode in place i had some corrosion on the shaft taking place. I could tell this by greenish stuff leaking from the gland seal. Now, with the shaft out, i see that areas, which were contacting the seal packing and cutless bearing have typical pink color which indicates dezincification. Why only those two areas? IMO because due to constant abrasion the oxide film could not form there.

 I made a bit of research and seemingly there are two ways of dealing with galvanic corrosion. First is to bond everything and protect with anode, second one is to isolate everything. On my boat everything is bonded but nothing is protected. I have a "spare" hole in the bottom left after removal of the fishfinder transducer. I might use it to fit an anode before I launch the boat.

P.S. I'm not an expert, but as far as my limited understanding goes, if your anode lasted 3 years and you are giving it another year, it simply did not do the job. Anodes should deplete a bit sooner than 4 year me thinks. What do you think?

---

From: pearso...@goosglegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 3:55 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal - DONE

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "pearson-boats" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pearson-boats/pH8ngIKHtaI/unsubscribe.
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[Jeff Griglack]

I said that I just finished my 3rd year and won't push to a forth. Truthfully, I probably should not have gone 3, and this last year was only a half season due to the change to electric propulsion.

I am searching for a fixed blade replacement for the folding prop and will add an anode directly to the new prop (no place to mount one on a folder).  This should allow me to do some regeneration while under sail.  Anybody have a fixed prop for sale for a 12" 7/8" shaft in good condition?

BTW, congrats on getting the shaft out.

Jeff Griglack

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent" 
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this 
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood – 
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." 
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd 
------------------------------------------------------------------

   

On Dec 12, 2016 2:14 PM, "Denis Furman" <denis...@live.com> wrote:

Hi Jeff

I did install the shaft anode first thing when bought this boat in July, cost was not an issue. But the boat never had any protection. Not a hull anode, no prop anode and no shaft anode. And no engine anodes too! That is what makes me wonder if it needs any anodes at all? (Ok, it may have had a shaft anode in the past at some stage)

Having said that, the aluminum mast base and the mast itself are badly corroded where they were submerged in to bilge water. Is there such thing as mast anode?

Another observation  - with the shaft anode in place i had some corrosion on the shaft taking place. I could tell this by greenish stuff leaking from the gland seal. Now, with the shaft out, i see that areas, which were contacting the seal packing and cutless bearing have typical pink color which indicates dezincification. Why only those two areas? IMO because due to constant abrasion the oxide film could not form there.

 I made a bit of research and seemingly there are two ways of dealing with galvanic corrosion. First is to bond everything and protect with anode, second one is to isolate everything. On my boat everything is bonded but nothing is protected. I have a "spare" hole in the bottom left after removal of the fishfinder transducer. I might use it to fit an anode before I launch the boat.

P.S. I'm not an expert, but as far as my limited understanding goes, if your anode lasted 3 years and you are giving it another year, it simply did not do the job. Anodes should deplete a bit sooner than 4 year me thinks. What do you think?

---

From: pearson-boats@goosglegroups.com <pearson-boats@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com>

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[Peter Ogilvie]

A long lasting zinc does not say it's not working but that it hasn't had to work YET.  All you need is someone to pull into a slip near you with a 'hot' boat and you'll be replacing the propellor, shaft, etc if you don't have a zinc.  

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

On Monday, December 12, 2016 11:49 AM, Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com> wrote:

I said that I just finished my 3rd year and won't push to a forth. Truthfully, I probably should not have gone 3, and this last year was only a half season due to the change to electric propulsion.

I am searching for a fixed blade replacement for the folding prop and will add an anode directly to the new prop (no place to mount one on a folder).  This should allow me to do some regeneration while under sail.  Anybody have a fixed prop for sale for a 12" 7/8" shaft in good condition?

BTW, congrats on getting the shaft out.

Jeff Griglack

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent" 
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this 
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood – 
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." 
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd 
------------------------------------------------------------------

   

On Dec 12, 2016 2:14 PM, "Denis Furman" <denis...@live.com> wrote:

Hi Jeff

I did install the shaft anode first thing when bought this boat in July, cost was not an issue. But the boat never had any protection. Not a hull anode, no prop anode and no shaft anode. And no engine anodes too! That is what makes me wonder if it needs any anodes at all? (Ok, it may have had a shaft anode in the past at some stage)

Having said that, the aluminum mast base and the mast itself are badly corroded where they were submerged in to bilge water. Is there such thing as mast anode?

Another observation  - with the shaft anode in place i had some corrosion on the shaft taking place. I could tell this by greenish stuff leaking from the gland seal. Now, with the shaft out, i see that areas, which were contacting the seal packing and cutless bearing have typical pink color which indicates dezincification. Why only those two areas? IMO because due to constant abrasion the oxide film could not form there.

 I made a bit of research and seemingly there are two ways of dealing with galvanic corrosion. First is to bond everything and protect with anode, second one is to isolate everything. On my boat everything is bonded but nothing is protected. I have a "spare" hole in the bottom left after removal of the fishfinder transducer. I might use it to fit an anode before I launch the boat.

P.S. I'm not an expert, but as far as my limited understanding goes, if your anode lasted 3 years and you are giving it another year, it simply did not do the job. Anodes should deplete a bit sooner than 4 year me thinks. What do you think?

---

From: pearson-boats@goosglegroups. com <pearson-boats@googlegroups. com> on behalf of Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 3:55 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal - DONE

 

Install a zinc anode.

Bronze is an alloy of copper, tin, and some other metal (aluminum, manganese, nickel or zinc).  The purpose of the exposed zinc anode is to let it sacrifice electrons and prevent galvanic corrosion.  If you leave the zinc off, you run an increased risk of one of the metals that are part of the shaft giving up electrons instead.  The $8 or $10 you spend on a zinc is cheap insurance.  The zinc on my prop shaft has lasted 3 years, but I'll replace it next year.

------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------

| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------

Hi 

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboar d-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-f or-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu -Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=i tem4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxI ML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

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-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george- dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery. com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/co llections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

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-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george- dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery. com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/co llections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

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[Bill Robart]

Denis,

I owned a P-33-1 from 1985 until 2013.  When I bought the boat I had a new 7/8" bronze shaft, prop and cutlass bearing installed. On the P-33-1 there is no place to install a zinc. The prop is in an aperture in the skeg that is so small that the end of the shaft is 1/2" from the rudder and the forward edge of the prop hub is less than 1/4" from the deadwood of the skeg. To the best of my knowledge there was never a zinc on the boat and decidedly not while I owned her. The entire time I owned her she hung on a mooring and the only time she was in a slip was immediately before and after launching and then only for a day or so each time. Nothing in the system ever looked as if it had been dezinced or significantly eroded away by electrolysis or galvanic corrosion. The only noticeable damage visible on the prop was from cavitation from motoring too close to hull speed and that was very minor.

I do not endorse the practice of not using zincs but I would do it again if the boat was all bronze below the waterline  and I didn't keep the boat at a dock. I had an acquaintance lose his prop, shaft and all of the bronze thru hulls over one winter at the dock. He and a couple of others hired a marine electrician to determine which boat at the dock had the faulty electrical system and they finally recovered a bunch of cash from the culprit (hard feeling at the YC over that incident).

If there is room for a zinc I'd use one. Cheap insurance.

BiIl

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[Diane-public]

Hi bill.  How's life below the mason Dixon line treating you?

On to Pearson topics.  I've been perplexed about something for some time.

The aperture on your boat was MUCH smaller than mine on mood indigo.  I've got just enough room for a collar zinc just forward of the prop.  

...diane

[Richard S. Usen]

Did you consider installing a hull zinc grounded to the engine? That’s about the only thing you can do.

use...@verizon.net
Dick Usen
T-33 Hopscotch

On Dec 13, 2016, at 6:42 PM, Bill Robart <wro...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Lance Davis]

Shaft-end zinc?  They sometimes have issues staying fixed, but it solves the no-space issue. 

[Mike Mayer]

During my time in the Coast Guard Auxiliary they had a big block of zinc attached to a cable that was connected to the engine.  When tying up at the dock we would flip the zinc block overboard.

 

Slan go Foill,  (Gaelic  "bye for now")
Mike

Semper Paratus
*************
There is nothing - absolute nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
*****
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; But right or wrong, our country!" - Commodore Stephen Decatur.
***
Molon Labe
***
"In a sailboat I become oblivious to everything else in the world."
- Albert Einstein

Hi 

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboar d-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-f or-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu -Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=i tem4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxI ML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

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-- 
George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website: 
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:

www.rockpaperphoto.com/george- dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery. com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/co llections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:

https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

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[Richard S. Usen]

A loose zinc on a cable has a problem: Once the zinc has spent some time in salt water, the corrosion products are an insulator and the zinc stops working. That’s why you don’t use leftover zincs a second year, at least I don’t. If you polish them w/ a power wire brush, they do work a bit better ( better, not good).

use...@verizon.net
Dick Usen
T-33 Hopscotch

[Mike Mayer]

I'm not sure if they swapped it out annually..

 

Slan go Foill,  (Gaelic  "bye for now")
Mike

Semper Paratus
*************
There is nothing - absolute nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
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"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; But right or wrong, our country!" - Commodore Stephen Decatur.
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Molon Labe
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"In a sailboat I become oblivious to everything else in the world."
- Albert Einstein

Hi 

I completely agree with the prop puller. I bought this one on eBay ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inboar d-Propeller-Prop-Puller-Tool-f or-Nautique-Mastercraft-Malibu -Tige-USA-/322350335729?hash=i tem4b0d93c6f1:g:a6sAAOSwFe5XxI ML&vxp=mtr ) to pull mine last summer and did the trick nicely. TRICK though taught to me....once you have the puller as tight as you can get it, and presumable the prop isn't budging yet, just tap around the outside of the hub of the prop and in a short time the vibration will usually free the prop. You may need to tighten the puller a bit more at a time as you go. Have fun!!!

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-- 
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[Bill Robart]

Diane,

Perhaps if you strip off all the bottom paint from around the aperture you may find signs of modification. I suppose if your boat was ordered with a diesel engine from the factory that they used a different skeg to employ a larger prop or they modified the skeg on later models.

On several occasions I considered modifying the aperture to do two things: make the water flow past the deadwood smoother (the deadwood hid 90% of the prop's blades which caused an annoying vibration at high RPM and diminished efficiency in reverse) and to enlarge it to accommodate a Maxprop. The smallest max prop would not work as the space was too small to allow the blades to feather and then get into reverse. I gave up on a third reason, allowing for the addition of a zinc, when no adverse symptoms appeared.

Things are great here in SC,,,,other than having to do some expensive tree trimming and removal in the aftermath of Matthew. Tree work after storms both here and in NJ before I left has now exceeded the cost of the loss of Ciris II which was minimal as parting out gear recouped much of the loss.

Happy Holidays,

Bill

[Bill Robart]

Dick,

Yes I did consider a hull mounted zinc but with no zinc installed for the PO and no problems resulting from the lack of a zinc I never did anything. Made me nervous and attentive for a few years and then I simply forgot about it.

Bil 

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Richard S. Usen <use...@verizon.net> wrote:

[Bill Robart]

No available shaft end zinc would fit. Getting the larger of the two prop nuts on required forcing it between the end of the shaft and the leading edge of the rudder. I suppose I could have modified a shaft end zinc and also used it in place of the lock nut but the boat yard guru's were hesitant to guarantee success. The would have sold me one but refused to install it or even modify it.

Bill

[Bill Robart]

One of my fellow yacht club members had a sister ship to my P-33-1 which was kept in a slip he had one of the zinc "fish" that he had leashed to the boat. He swapped it out annually as it would almost disappear over the course of a year.

Bill

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[Bill Robart]

One of the upside consequences of having no zinc on the shaft or prop was the total lack of fouling of the prop. There would be barnacles on the top of the rudder where I couldn't reach with the weekly bottom brushing, but the prop and 3/16" of exposed shaft never had any barnacles. All underwater metal on the boat was bronze.

Some folks have theorized that a minimal amount of electrical action was responsible for the lack of barnacles. The boat is gone so the truth remains a mystery.

Bill

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[Peter Ogilvie]

acetone mixes with/dissolves petroleum based products.  That's why it so good to wash down areas to be bonded with resin or just to clean up oil residue.  It's a mystery why it wouldn't mix with the automatic transmission   fluid.  Could it be that the trans fluid was contaminated with water and what you were seeing was water globules??

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[Denis Furman]

Hi Peter

Good point, it behaved exactly like water. The ATF was in sealed can, I have just bought it for this experiment so it wasn't contaminated. What can be the problem here is that modern ATF can be synthetic rather than petroleum. I visited the Castrol web site to check composition of the stuff that I bought and it reads clearly "General purpose mineral based automatic transmission and power steering fluid." Thus my ATF is mineral (petroleum) based oil.

Now checking the origin of acetone "evaporates easily, is flammable, and dissolves in water". Wikipedia says "Acetone was first produced by alchemists during the late Middle Ages via the dry distillation of metal acetates (e.g., lead acetate, which produced "spirit of Saturn". Does that mean the acetone is NOT a petroleum product? I'm not a chemist but I can't see how a fluid be able to dissolve both in water and oil? If it could, then oil and water would be able to dissolve between themselves, no? I'll be working on the boat next Saturday, will try to mix some acetone with water to see how that works).

Shall we right to the PBO and question the results of their comparison? Did they something different under name of acetone? Some kind of mineral spirit, petroleum based solvent, kerosene (base of WD40) etc

Denis

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Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 11:28 PM

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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal - DONE

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[Guy Johnson]

I remember reading that bronze is neutral in sea water and naturally anti-fouling. 

I do use a zinc on my bronze shaft and prop, minimal wear on the zinc during the summer season. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bill Robart <wro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 11:12 AM

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Pearson 303 prop shaft removal - DONE