Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

[Peter M. Trunfio]

I need some advice and guidance from the panel. Last fall I made the decision to have the bottom on my 10M stripped, barrier coated and repainted.

 

As with any 40 year old boat, once you strip away years of paint, you see problems and prior repair jobs that have been done over the years.

 

In particular, there was a pair of cracks running the length of either side of the rudder skeg just forward of the rudder. This appeared to be, in part anyway, the result of a prior repair. The yard suggested this be ground out and re=repaired before barrier coating. Last week the yard called to say work was finished. That’s when the trouble started.

 

When I went out to the boat, the rudder was centered. I noticed that there was a nice uniform gap (1/4” +/-) on the port side between the rudder and the skeg. On the starboard side there was no such gap. It was like someone had painted a window shut. I pushed on the rudder (which was stiff) and “broke” the paint seal between the rudder and skeg. As I tried to move the rudder back and forth, I realized it was more than just too much paint.

 

When repairing the skeg, the buildup of material (glass? Epoxy?) extended farther back than it did originally. So when putting the rudder over to starboard it hit the trailing edge of the skeg which acted as a stop. I couldn’t move it more than 5 or 10 degrees to starboard. When I tried to move it to port, the leading edge of the rudder was binding on the starboard edge of the skeg. I could push the rudder back and forth slightly by hand, but couldn’t turn the wheel at all. Clearly there was too much material buildup on the starboard side. The yard said they would fix it. I’m glad I discovered this problem before launching and motoring off the dock without any steerage.

 

The yard called yesterday to say they ground out the first repair and re-did it, but that now the rudder wouldn’t move at all. They suggested it must be a problem with the steering…possibly the wheel brake, or maybe the steering cable jumped a sheave? I thought both unlikely, but figured I had to rule out those possibilities.

 

I went out to the boat last night and found the rudder hard over to port. There was a nice uniform gap on the starboard side as the rudder was “over to the stops” on the port side. I tried to move the rudder by hand…even put all my body weight behind it. It wouldn’t budge…not even a little. Didn’t feel like a “steering problem” to me.

 

I went up on deck and removed the compass. The wheel brake is fine and is not binding. I went into the starboard locker and inspected the steering cable. All appears as it should. Lastly, I [reluctantly] disconnected the steering cables from the quadrant. Still the rudder won’t budge. I even cleaned up the stuffing box on the rudder post thinking maybe it had seized up. Still no movement.

 

I went back down to inspect the rudder. I noticed some bottom paint on the lower rudder pin, but figured that wouldn’t be enough to completely seize the rudder. Then it hit me. I don’t think I should be able to see the lower rudder pin. It’s never been visible before….because there was never a gap before. The rudder sat flush on the …whatever that fitting the rudder sits on is called? A shoe? But now there’s a ½” gap between the two and I can clearly see the lower rudder pin.

 

Here’s what I think happened. They pushed the rudder hard to port so they had access to the [over]-built up area on the starboard side. The re-repaired the starboard side, only to find that now the rudder is seized in place. I think one of two things happened. Either they removed so much material around the base of the lower [shoe?], that it “dropped” and is no longer square with the upper [shoe?]…so it they aren’t parallel, and the rudder is binding. OR, they removed that lower [shoe?] and reset it. But now it’s a) lower than it should be (hence the gap) and b) probably isn’t “square” so the rudder is stuck over to port.

 

I’ve attached “before” and “after” pictures to this email to try to illustrate what I’m talking about. But I’m not sure you can email pictures to the group.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions as to what the problem may be? Anyone have any pictures or diagrams of what the tolerances around the rudder should be? Any thoughts on how to square up the lower shoe before re-setting it?

 

I think the yard turned a small mistake (too much material was preventing full range of motion on the rudder) into a big mistake (rudder is now probably out of alignment).

 

No longer concerned with getting the boat in the water for this weekend. Just concerned that the yard has done irreparable damage.

 

Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

Peter M. Trunfio

s/v  Annandale

City Island, NY

 

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Whatever is wrong it can be fixed.

The part at the base of the rudder is indeed called a shoe. It is a 2 part beonze plate fastened through the skeg with large flathead screws. Three? I have some photos but am not at home.

I dont know why they would mess with the shoe for this repair unless the decided to remove the rudder for access? But that is not easy.

Got more photos?

Sounds like yard does not know what they are doing. They need to fix it right or bring in proper expert to fix it. Should have been simple.

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Peter M. Trunfio]

I just realized something else. With that [new] gap at the bottom (between the rudder and the skeg), what’s supporting the weight of the rudder?

I believe it used to rest on a bonze shim of sorts. But now with that gap it’s either a) hanging from the stuffing box nut(s), or b) bottomed out in the housing the receives the lower rudder pin. I imagine either of those would cause the rudder to bind. Would it make it immovable? How much does that rudder weight? Is the 10M rudder foam core? Is it buoyant? Or is it “fully supported” by the bottom “hinge” on the skeg?

 

Peter M. Trunfio
s/v Annandale

City Island, NY

 

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

 

[Peter M. Trunfio]

Thanks Dan, that's reassuring to know that all is not lost.

They did not remove the rudder...but that doesn't mean they didn't mess with
the shoe.

Does it appear from the "after" picture that part of the shoe is missing?
Doesn't the rudder part of the "hinge" rest on the shoe at the lower skeg
part of the "hinge"?

Is it possible they removed part of the shoe? Now there's nothing to bear

the weight of the rudder?

I don't have any other "after" photos. I was initially thinking that they
had just gotten a lot of dust, paint and possibly even epoxy on the
pins...so I took a few close-ups of the pins.

Only when I got home last night did I realize I shouldn't be able to see the
pins. I'm heading back out there this morning. I'll take some more pictures
of the rudder.

I would love to see what the two-part shoe looks like if anyone has a
picture or a diagram. I'm starting to think that's the culprit here...no
idea what they could have done to it?

Thank you.

Peter M. Trunfio
s/v Annandale
City Island, NY

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]

On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:57 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

Whatever is wrong it can be fixed.

The part at the base of the rudder is indeed called a shoe. It is a 2 part
beonze plate fastened through the skeg with large flathead screws. Three?
I have some photos but am not at home.

I dont know why they would mess with the shoe for this repair unless the
decided to remove the rudder for access? But that is not easy.

Got more photos?

Sounds like yard does not know what they are doing. They need to fix it
right or bring in proper expert to fix it. Should have been simple.

Dan Pfeiffer

May 30, 2013 08:16:03 AM, pearso...@googlegroups.com wrote:

 ;
>
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[RICHARD USEN]

I recommend you stop the yard from throwing money at it and get a surveyor in who knows what he’s doing. Clearly there’s too much guessing going on. I’d expect that the rudder weight is supported inside the boat and not at the shoe. Good luck.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

[Peter M. Trunfio]

Thanks Dick.

 

At this point it’s their money, not mine. I’m not paying for them to fix their own shoddy work (for a third time).

 

Just curious…what inside the boat would support the rudder?

A “post-hung” rudder is buoyant because there isn’t anything to support it from below. I’m not suggesting a skeg hung rudder isn’t buoyant (I really don’t know)…I just assumed that the shoe supported the rudder from below.

 

Peter M. Trunfio

s/v Annandale

City Island, NY

 

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

 

[Dan Pfeiffer]

couple of things. Pardon limited phone based response...

I dont have access to my materials till evening...

I am pretty sure 10M rudder is supported by shoe and it is probably quite heavy. I do have photo on site (look for stearing gear) of rudder shaft at stuffing box. No support flange.

I have not had shoe apart but think rudder shaft simply sits in it. I think binding is less likely than blocking. Not sure. How is clearance at top of rudder? Even if shoe was twisted i think rudder would turn.

Wish I could see in person. Get more pics. Both sides, whole rudder, in locker if you can.

If steering worked at layup how could it not work now if not fault of repair work?

Dan Pfeiffer

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[RICHARD USEN]

Money’s money and I hate to see it wasted, theirs or yours. After you hire a surveyor, you may want to hire a hit man if not an attorney. The worst that’ll happen is that you may need a new yard after this is settled.

 

I’m not familiar w/ a 10M, but in general, the rudder is supported by a thrust bearing of some sort somewhere. In my P-30 it was a Delrin flanged bushing right under the tiller casting. In your case, it might be where the emergency tiller connects. In my T-33 it’s likely under the quadrant. I don’t remember. The bottom shoe is usually to support the rudder from an axial water load.

 

Be patient, You’ll get it repaired. Dan knows the 10M better than anyone. Follow his advice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Photo of stuffing box and rudder shaft inside boat. No support of rudder weight.

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/steering05.jpg

[RICHARD USEN]

Looking at your second picture, if the skeg is on the right, the weight is supported by the flanged bushing, just like my P-30.

[RICHARD USEN]

Is it hung from the skeg? The pintle isn't big enough.

Dick Usen
T-33 #100
Hopscotch
Boston

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]

On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:28 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Peter M. Trunfio]

Thanks Dan. That's exactly what mine looks like.

More pictures to following.

PMT

Peter M. Trunfio

[JR Maxwell]

My post hung rudder is certainly not buoyant.  Darn thing probably weighs 150# and would sink like a stone.  On a P-30, the weight is carried by a combination of deck and hull, joined by a fiberglass tube.

Bob

Shenanigan P-30 #940

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The "pintle" is the 1-1/4" rudder shaft. Is that big enough? You cant apply spade rudder based speculation to a skeg configuration. The only thing in common is that they are both rudders. Even the way they make lift to steer the boat is different. Like the conventional elevator on a conventional plane (2 pts) vs the elevator on a supersonic plane (1 part). Whats that called?

Dan Pfeiffer

[Guy Johnson]

I'm pretty sure the weight of the 10M's rudder is supported by the shoe at the bottom of the skeg.
I agree wtih Dick's suggestion to hire a surveyor, ask the yard to reimburse your expense for the surveyor.
It's my guess that there was no reason to do the work in the first place, the skeg on the 10M is shaped to fit around the leading edge of the rudder and those flanges aren't structual, I have hairline cracks on the skeg of our 10M in the same location and they haven't changed in the 25 years i've owned the boat.
Further I suspect your rudder is glued into the shoe with excess resin from a sloppy repair.
Consider contacting a lawyer or perhaps your insurance company.
 
Guy
Puffin 10M #6
 

> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:02:52 -0400
> Subject: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M
> From: peter....@earthlink.net
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Peter M. Trunfio]

Not hung, no. The rudder on the 10M has pins on top and bottom. [I think] it rests on the lower shoe.

No weight born at the stuffing box. But after the shoddy repair, there is a gap between the rudder and shoe (see attached).

Dan said it's a heavy rudder...but not so heavy that you couldn't muscle it over.

So my guess is the shoe is out of alignment...which is probably what caused the gap in the first place.

Does anyone know whether rudder portion of the "hinge" sits flush on top of the shoe...thereby bearing the weight there?

Or does the lower pin bottom out in the lower housing and take the weight?

PMT

Peter M. Trunfio

RICHARD USEN <use...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Is it hung from the skeg? The pintle isn't big enough.
>
>Dick Usen
>T-33 #100
>Hopscotch
>Boston
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]
>On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
>Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:28 AM
>To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Dan Pfeiffer]

10M shoe photos...if my phone cooperates...


Dan Pfeiffer

[Dan Pfeiffer]

10M shoe, 2nd try...

May 30, 2013 11:28:23 AM, pearso...@googlegroups.com wrote:

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not gonna work. Will post photos after work.

[Michael Graham]

Dan, I got the photo (1)

Michael L. Graham

On May 30, 2013, at 11:48 AM, Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

> Not gonna work. Will post photos after work.
>

[Guy Johnson]

The top and botom 'pins' that Peter refers to are the rudder stock.
I'm pretty sure the bottom of the rudder stock where it sits in the shoe is weight bearing, which means there should be some gap between the fiberglass body of the rudder and the top of the shoe.
Can you slide a stiff piece of paper in between the skeg and the rudder?
Can you move that piece of paper up and down the entire length of the skeg?
If you can't the rudder is likely bonded to the skeg. If you can then the rudder is likely bonded to the shoe. Keep in mind both may be true.
 
Guy

 

> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:26:53 -0400
> Subject: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M
> From: peter....@earthlink.net
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[RICHARD USEN]

Don't rightly know. I'm just guessing.

[Robert Franklin]

May I comment and add a problem of my own to which Peter's rudder problem takes priority as he initiated the thread.

Peter, sorry for the problem you are having and I can sense the frustration. It may be no help, but a little comfort for me to say, your situation reminds me of all the aphorisms I have developed over the years of doing projects, watching others doing project and correcting projects done poorly by others.

I suppose your yard does not allow you to do this work. I have the great fortune of belonging to a club with a yard where all work, can be member done.  In fact, outside contractors are not highly favored.  I have wondered what would terminate my sailing hobby and there is no question that were I in a situation where I was not allowed to do my own work and especially engine work, that would be it for me.

I have often on this forum decried the almost automatic reliance on the "badge".  The "badge" is the trained, certified, recommended expert, on the specific subject. My attitude based on experience is - Beware the Badge.  I have a particular annoyance in this regard because I am the owner of a small office builidng where with my prized assistant we do all maintenance including roof, electric, boiler/burner, etc.  Some of my tenants are skeptical of my skill, because ... first and foremost I am a lawyer and second and probably more compelling, I do not have the "badge". I know my work is second to none, but I've never been able to fully convince those people who are just accustomed to making a phone call and waiting for the bill.  As most on this site can affirm, it is not a matter of saving money, although this is one effect of do it yourelf.  At is much more avoidance of the kind of problem(s) you are experience.

Having said that in my typically long winded fashion, I have some general advise.  Proceed very thoughtfully.  Focus on the problem, not the solution (another of my favorite aphorisms).  Sounds to me, like the problem arises from something very insignificant in its condition but enormous in its effect.  Also, do not assume the repair is the cause of the problem.  Rather, the repair may have been a causal factor in created the problem.  So think creatively.  A rudder that doesn't turn in one direction, where everything seems to check out requires careful analysis.  Its worth taking the time, even if you have to wait to launch.  That's my opinion.

Shame on the yard, by the way.  Although boat yards have many difficult issues to content with these days, for relatively small financial rewards, work on a boat needs to be done properly because your life may depend on it.  At that level hiring competent people and having the customer pay top dollar is what works even though financially uncomfortable.  Still, the best of them make stupid mistakes.

MY PROBLEM, if its ok to tag on, here.

Against my generally no exception policy, I have made an exception this spring.  My P36-1 is similar to the 10M, but with respect to my problem the similarity is distinguished by the difference in the case of the keel.  I am not referring to the keel/hull connection, which is by means of substantial keel bolts near the bottom of the keel.

My problem is at the point where the hull and keel cosmetically melt together as the very aft end and upper part of the keel.  Technically, I suppose it is the boat hull, whereas the keel doesn't begin until you get down to the lead.  However, for illustration, my problem is where the bottom of the hull flares into the fiberglass standing part of the "keel".  (BTW, my hull to keel joint is perfect, with no evidence of separation, there, at all.)

At this back upper area appears a very small crack about 6 inches long on either side.  So, presumably the crack is through the hull at this point.  I cannot say what caused it, but the P.O. installed a substantial Navtec back stay adjuster, for no good reason considering the mast is built like a telephone pole.  Some overly enthusiastic Gorilla may have overly tensioned the back stay trying to get some bend out of the telephone pole and pulled the pieces of hull and fiberglass part of the keel apart.

When the boat is sitting on the hard, with block under the lead keel, the crack is not visible, unless you know exactly where to look. When the boat is lifted on the Brownell rig and some support is created by the lifting arms, the crack appears and it is in the neighborhood of 1/64 inch.

When the boat was launced last spring, I could dry out my bilge and then notice a slight weeping of salt water into the very aft end of the bilge.  Its rate of accumulation may have been on the order of 2 quarts a week.  After 2 weeks it stopped, as if growth may have dammed the access.  There after, there was not indication of leakage at this point in the bilge, although I cannot say whether there may have been weeping when the boat was being driven hard on the wind.

The way I view this problem is that it is fixable, but not repairable.  By this I mean, the symptom can be corrected, but the crack can never be corrected within the scope of any reasonable effort relative to the problem

However, there is a young man who does a lot of fiberglass work for many of the members and is well recommended by the former Commodore.  This young man is very thoughtful about how he does repairs and I have engaged him to "fix" my cracked hull.  He expresses confidence in his ability to do so, and I am willing to let him try and pay for the attempt.  In my own mind, based on my analysis of the dynamics and forces involved and partly to anticipate and alleviate potential disappointment, I have secretly concluded that the goal of repairing the crack and stopping the flow of water cannot be achieved.  I have gently suggested that to Shawn, but I have not done so forcefully.  I am not concerned about the cost.  I am curious about the process and the possibility, remote as it might be, of the problem not only being repaired but also being fixed.

Here is the reason for my skepticism.  When the boat is lifted by the Brownell, all the weight of the keel pulls against the cracked area.  The same will be true to only a slightly lesser extent when the boat is resting in the water.  Then, what about the forces on the keel when the boat is sailing.  I cannot imagine a method of repair that can compete with these forces at that location.

A friend in the club has suggested another approach which would just about guarantee success, but it certainly does not address the cause of the leak, only the leak itself.  He says, be prepared when the boat is put on the rig, with a tube of underwater epoxy or caulk.  Squeeze it into the crack when the crack is open.  Wipe clean, launch and forget it.

Problem is I need to sleep at night and things like cracks in my boat make that difficult.

Bob Franklin
P36-1 (1972)
Yanmar 3 GM   

--
Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047

617 277 5900 Cell
617 277 5901 Fax

email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[Robert Franklin]

I've removed my shoe, quadrant and rudder.  This is not small job.  I replaced the shoe with a new casting (bronze) and had the rudder post cut for an emergency tiller. There is nothing that will cause the rudder to stall. 

Have you checked to be sure the stuffing box is not too tight.  That could allow movement in one direction but restrain it in the other.

Where does the rudder head end up?

R. Franklin

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Peter M. Trunfio <peter....@earthlink.net> wrote:

--

[Robert Franklin]

I think this has been answered.  Entire weight of rudder rests on the shoe.  But the post could bottom out inside the shoe, which would account for the gap.  Although it would not account for it not having had a gap previously unless someone has removed the rudder (you can't do that without dropping the shoe) and added something into the bottom inside of the shoe.

R. Franklin

R. Franklin

[Robert Franklin]

Maybe there was a bronze ring that acted as a bearing, which the yard has lost.  Mine didn't have that, but who knows.  This would be a relatively easy thing to replace.

Hey!  How about this?

Without the shim, the rudder is not resting on the should but the bottom end of the rudder post is sunk into the bottom of the shoe casting where it is not in a smooth plane relationship between the two pieces.  And since the post is narrow  and stainless it could be digging into the bronze shoe. 

Find out what the yard did. If they removed the shoe and the quadrant to access the hull, you have better get the whole story in detail and reconstruct the rudder as it was originally.  The stainless post would definitely hand up inside the shoe and be consistent with the problem you describe.

I haven't looked in a long time, but my impression is the the rudder rests on the top edge of the shoe, such that there is not gap at all.  The gap you have identified as something you do not recall is likely to be the clue to the problem.

Bob Franklin

[Guy Johnson]

Bob;
I'd hang the boat in the slings, squirt some goo in the crack and launch.
 
Guy

[Robert Franklin]

Guy,

That is exactly what had been suggested and probably a $1,000 less.  But this enthusiastic young man wants to try and it wouldn't be the first time I've contributed to someone's enthusiasm.

What made me focus on this, was Peter's tale of woe and I was mostly reflecting on the fact that this "outside" solution carries very little possibility of becoming part of the problem, or ending up worse than the problem.  Do you agree there not much room on this for f-up.

So, if I've spent some boat bucks imprudently, I can live with that at the moment as my personal economy connected to my work has been blessedly soaring, lately.  Of course, its a curse disguised as a blessing since I've been able to do almost no boat prep for the season.  Launching for me seems a long way off.  Just too damn busy with legitimate work.

Plus, my patrician wife is always criticizing my immigrant ways, urging me to spread the wealth around.  Its a feature she has that creates conflict, but I secretly love her for it.

Bob

[Robert Franklin]

Richard,

Yes, I am looking forward to Dan's comments. 

My repair person proposes to do exactly what you describe.  He is familiar enough with this kind of repair to have described some exotic cloths bi-axial and kevlar ??? and other stuff I am not familiar with.  But unless it were like steel and very deeply cut into the hull I cannot see how it could ever hold the keel in place unless acres of the area were cut away and built up.  Its not the downward force that concerns me, so much, although I do see that as a problem.  Its the lateral force with the boat being driven hard in waves that worries me.

What do you think about my idea that the bottom of Peter's stainless shaft is grinding into the inside bottom of the shoe when it should be sitting on and rotating on the top surface of the shoe?

There is a lot of weight there and if its not "bearing" properly, this would be a serious problem.  But easy to fix.

I can't imagine the yard dropping the rudder out of the boat without a lot of money involved.

Bob Franklin

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:39 PM, RICHARD USEN <use...@verizon.net> wrote:

Bob, it sounds like you have a crack all the way thru the hull. When there’s strain on the crack, it’ll try to open. Stuffing gunk into the crack will accomplish nothing as the hull/gunk joint will be under tension and you’ve done nothing that will be strong enough to accomplish anything. And, the crack no doubt is probably twice as long as what you can see.  You’ll need to build up the hull on both the inside and outside w/ sufficient glass to resist the movement in the hull. This means grinding down the surfaces, both inside and out to get a good shear bond. Anything less and you get zero for your money. See what Dan P says.  

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

[JR Maxwell]

Regarding installation of the Navtec, I would take exception to the comment "... the P.O. installed a substantial Navtec back stay adjuster, for no good reason considering the mast is built like a telephone pole."  There is a very good reason to use an adjustable back stay adjuster, even on a boat with a sturdy mast like many Pearsons.

I agree bending the mast is not a great reason, though you can visibly bend the mast, at least on a P-30, without undue force applied to the hull.  It provides modest flattening of the main.  You cannot bend the mast remotely as much as you can on a boat with a fractional rig or a more bendy mast, so I agree this value is limited.

What you can do is directly and dramatically impact the forestay tension, which has a profound effect on headsail shape and performance in varying conditions.  If you have the head stay bar tight in light air, the jib entry will be too flat and very inefficient.  If you have the head stay too soft in heavy air, the jib will be much too full and will contribute to poor pointing, drag (inefficiency) and excess healing.

It is important to control the "gorilla" effect as powerful hydraulics can be used for good or evil.

Bob

Shenanigan P-30 #940

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Guy Johnson]

Bob;

What do you think about my idea that the bottom of Peter's stainless shaft is grinding into the inside bottom of the shoe when it should be sitting on and rotating on the top surface of the shoe?

The rudder shaft is solid and the bottom of it is supported by the shoe at the bottom of the skeg.
The bottom of the rudder should not be sitting on the top of the shoe it's fiberglass and would quickly be damaged.
Let's wait and see what Peter discovers.
BTW I can push my 10m's rudder side to side with two fingers, yes with the wheel connected.
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:52:09 -0400

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

From: robertm...@gmail.com
To: use...@verizon.net
CC: pearso...@googlegroups.com; pearson_...@yahoogroups.com

[Robert Franklin]

Bob Shenanigan.

I hadn't considered the fore stay.  But you've made me believe the Navtec is not a waste.

Bob Franklin

[Dan Pfeiffer]

the big masts can bend too. Not like the skinnies but on the 10M you have in-line and forward lowers which helps. And control of the headstay is fundimental.

Dan Pfeiffer

[Dan Pfeiffer]

huh? If the response i am supposed to make was to something in that 5000 word manafesto you'll have to cut it down to a paragraph cuz i missed it.

Dan Pfeiffer

[Dan LeBlond]

I think tour yard mechanics glued the rudder shaft into the bronze shoe. Your pictures look very much like the configuration on my 323. The rudder on a 323 is supported by the shoe. The stuffing box cannot support any of that weight. There is some wooden blocking above the stuffing box with a bearing bolted on to hold the rudder in alignment. then the shaft ends in a square configuration to accept an emergency tiller accessed via a deck plate of about 6 inch diameter.

If you disconnected the cables from the quadrant and the rudder is still seized. It was boned by a yard monkey that should not be entrusted with marine work.

On May 30, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Peter M. Trunfio wrote:

I just realized something else. With that [new] gap at the bottom (between the rudder and the skeg), what’s supporting the weight of the rudder?

I believe it used to rest on a bonze shim of sorts. But now with that gap it’s either a) hanging from the stuffing box nut(s), or b) bottomed out in the housing the receives the lower rudder pin. I imagine either of those would cause the rudder to bind. Would it make it immovable? How much does that rudder weight? Is the 10M rudder foam core? Is it buoyant? Or is it “fully supported” by the bottom “hinge” on the skeg?

 

Peter M. Trunfio
s/v Annandale

City Island, NY

 

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter M. Trunfio

Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:15 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Hmmm,

OK. Here are the photos again. Three in one...

Pearson 10M bronze rudder shoe...

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Meant to add, Peter O's description is right on thouh I suspect the
Wanderer shoe might be shaped differently. There are three flat head screws
that attach the shoe to the skeg, two on one side, one on the other. Looks
like one piece. Thought it was two. If you want to remove the screws I
would get what is called a drag link socket. Basically a flat screwdriver
tip for a ratchet driver. Sears sells them. A nice set for under $30.
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-4-pc-drag-link-socket-set/p-00934299000P?prdNo=29&blockNo=29&blockType=G29

Just the ticket for this sort of thing.

Dan Pfeiffer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Pfeiffer" <d...@pfeiffer.net>
To: <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

[Guy Johnson]

I agree.

Guy

Sent from my iPad

[Ron Buchanan]

Dan, once again your resources (pictures and website) rock! Thank you for your HUGE contributions to the class!

[rbuch...@gmail.com]

My question for the day... Is this just a matter of fairing? Or should I be more concerned than I already am. And please excuse the layers of paint... Thats next winters project ;)

[Bill Robart]

It looks to me that putting it off until "next winter" has been an ongoing plan for the boat. Rusty streaks anyplace where water can enter or leave a fiberglass structure reinforced with steel is a warning sign of a problem.  At a minimum I'd strip the paint to do some further investigating. Be aware that the investigating will likely involve some removal of fiberglass and removal of the rudder and that simply sealing the points where the water has gained access will not cure the problem.

Sorry to be a prophet of doom, but I doubt Pearson designed the rudder to last forever. The rust is a sure sign of that.

Bill

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:31 AM, <rbuch...@gmail.com> wrote:

My question for the day... Is this just a matter of fairing? Or should I be more concerned than I already am. And please excuse the layers of paint... Thats next winters project ;)

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Sent from my iPad
Ron Buchanan
804.399.2668 cell
804.364.3610

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 7:03 PM, Ron Buchanan <rbuch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dan, once again your resources (pictures and website) rock!  Thank you for your HUGE contributions to the class!
>

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[George DuBose]

It's hard to tell from those .jpegs, but I think the 10M and the P36-1
have the same rudder setup. Bronze rudder post sitting in a bronze
shoe, negating the need for shaft bearings. The stuffing box for the
top of the rudder post serves as the second bearing and a hole in the
rudder shoe serves as the second rudder bearing.

I don't have a close up of my rudder, but the leading edge lies in a
"groove" at the back of the skeg. That space should be clean and open.

Yep, you have some bottom paint removal to do and I am not sure how you
can get into that groove to clean it out.

Dropping the rudder on these boats means removing the shoe and that is
something that I wouldn't want to do if I didn't have to.

George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website:
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
www.rockpaperphoto.com/george-dubose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
http://www.houseofroulx.com/collections/george-dubose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL


NOT A VERY CLOSE OR CLEAR PHOTO, BUT THE VERTICAL
SEAM BETWEEN THE RUDDER AND THE SKEG SHOULD HAVE AROUND 1/2"
OF SPACE. TOO MANY LAYERS OF PAINT MAY IMPEDE THE FUNCTION OF
THE RUDDER AND WEAR THE "BEARINGS" PREMATURELY.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I agree with George about not wanting to remove the rudder unless necessary.   And I agree with Bill about getting in there and figuring out what's going on.  But I do not think the rudder or skeg were made with any steel or steel fasteners.  So far as I have found all the metal parts of the rudder assembly are bronze.  

The shoe is two pieces that fasten to the bottom of the skeg with 3 large bronze screws going through from side to side.  I have attached a few pics of mine with the degraded fairing removed.  The shoe is rather robust but the sides where the screws are threaded in are somewhat thin and can become stripped so they should be treated with care.  At the bottom, below the show, there is an extension of the skeg that is screwed onto the show.  

My approach would be to chip and grind away all that sloppy fairing and get down to clean fiberglass.  Then assess the condition of the skeg mount and if it is in acceptable shape fair over it and prep it for bottom paint. If more attention is needed I would consider dropping the rudder.  That involves removing the shoe and disassembling the steering gear.   You may not actually need to drop the rudder to affect repairs to the shoe should they be needed. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Ron Buchanan]

Like I said before, I can't appreciate enough the value of this group. It was reassuring to see Dan's pictures of the bronze fitting stripped down.  I'll take the faring down and see how it looks. Thanks all!

Ron

Crescendo 10M #161

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<100_6797.JPG>

<100_6799.JPG>

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here is a picture of the 10M rudder shoe and the rudder stuffing box.  Looks like there is a replaceable bronze bushing on the shoe.  Looks like it is pressed in.  I don't know if I saved the screws on this one.  I recall having to drill out at least one of them.   The slotted flat head screws in the bottom plate are what holds the skeg extension fairing piece that goes below the shoe.  Also some pics of the lower end of the rudder shaft where it fits into the bushing on the shoe. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Bob Maxwell]

Is the rudder post bronze as well?  Pearsons I've seen (and that doesn't include this model) have stainless rudder posts.  I believe a few stainless ribs are welded to the post and then sealed inside the fiberglass rudder section.  Stainless can rust if it's exposed long enough.  That could be the source of apparent rust stains.  If so, ultimately, it's not a good thing, though it could continue for a long time.

Bob

P30 #940

[Dan Pfeiffer]

10M rudder post is bronze. 

[George DuBose]

I guess the 10M and the P-36-1 have different rudder shoes.

Dan, since you have gone that far in disassembling a Pearson rudder,
did you find that the rudder post is bronze as well? If that is so, I
would guess that the fingers inside of the rudder would be bronze and
welded to the rudder post.

[Bob Maxwell]

Great!  Then scratch that particular worry.

Bob

P30 #940

[Guy Johnson]

I'll confirm the rudder post on the 10M if solid bronze. 

The pictures of Ron's rudder shoe concern me because I can see a crack across the portion of the rudder shoe where the ears are that hold the shoe in place and support the bottom of the rudder. 

I would put the uncovering of the rudder shoe on the must do before launching list. 

Guy

10M #6

---

From: jrmax...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:28:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Ron Buchanan]

That crack is actually across the siege (I believe). First pic is Port side, second is Starboard. Port is what looks like Marinetex dabbed in there. Crap! More work!

Ron

Crescendo 10M #161

[Guy Johnson]

Ron

you can have the filler ground out in 30 minutes and then you'll know what you're up against. 

Guy

---

From: rbuch...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:48:27 -0400
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Ron Buchanan]

It's on the list!  After looking at it more, and pics posted by others, I'm confident there is more movement in that shoe than is acceptable. I really don't want to drop the rudder. But it maybe the only way to do it right!

Look at the pic of the shoe exposed... Is that a missing bolt?  Aargh.  

Ron

Crescendo 10M #161

[Dan Pfeiffer]

All of the metal components of the 10M rudder assembly (rudder shaft/post, shoe, stuffing box, bushings, fasteners) are bronze so far as I have seen.  I have not dissected the rudder to see what's inside.  

As to Guy's concerns about cracks seen in the photos, I see that and it needs investigation but I expect it will be revealed to be in the fairing that looks to be quite thick and sloppy indeed.  A few minutes with hammer and chisel and a grinder will make it all clear.   

Also, if you look at the rudder shoe on my boat and the rudder shoe I took of another 10M the fastener pattern is different.   Perhaps the holes were drilled when the shoe was installed.  That would sort of make alignment easier.  And if the threaded holes were stripped I can see drilling new holes in a different patter to re-mount the shoe.  Best done in place so the hole alignment is made easy.  Set the shoe in place and clamp, drill new holes through bronze from one side - through skeg - and trough bronze on other side, remove shoe, tap holes on one side and counter sink on other side, install shoe and cut fasteners in place to fit.   Could also go one size larger for the fasteners though the ears on the shoe are not very thick for threading and counter sinking. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think it would be easy enough to service the shoe without dropping the rudder.  Run a strap from the stern cleats under the rudder to take the weight and you'll be good to go.  The shoe has to come off to drop the rudder anyway so the rudder doesn't need to be removed to get the shoe off. 

Check to see of the play is between the rudder post/shaft and the bushing in the shoe or is the shoe actually loose on the skeg.   I suppose in either case the shoe would need to come off.  Either to replace the bushing or to fix the she mounting. 

If the play is in the bushing hopefully the rudder post/shaft is still good and round and all it needs is to have the bushing replaced. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[RICHARD USEN]

I doubt if the sailing characteristics will be negatively affected by external nuts in addition to boltheads instead of flatheads…

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 12:04 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Problem - Pearson 10M

 

All of the metal components of the 10M rudder assembly (rudder shaft/post, shoe, stuffing box, bushings, fasteners) are bronze so far as I have seen.  I have not dissected the rudder to see what's inside.  

--