31-2 Cracking Keel Grid

[Andrew Milkovits]



Hi All,

Last week, when I went to winterize my 1987 31-2 after it was hauled, I discovered a severe deflection in the hull just aft of the keel. The deflection was so significant that the cabin sole no longer sits flush, with the aft section pushed up about 4 inches. I also found a large crack in the horizontal support grid immediately behind the keel, with extensive gelcoat cracking on the top of the grid where it’s flexed.  From the research I've done it appears that incorrect blocking could cause this.  I have not discussed it with the boatyard as yet, thinking that it may be best for the insurance company to review it first. 

I've contacted my insurance (Progressive), and an adjuster will inspect it next week. Given the extent of the damage, I’m concerned this might mean either a costly repair or the end of the road for the boat. I suspect Progressive will push back on responsibility, especially since the boat's pre-purchase survey noted signs of prior evidence on the leading edge of the keel of a past strike (it is a Maine based boat, after all), though no structural hull damage was found at the time, and we did spend quite a bit of time looking at this area.  The surveyor did mention evidence of a  previous keel area repair - which he believed to be the case because the bilge has exposed fiberglass cloth.  His position was that the boat left the factory with a smooth gelcoat finished bilge.  I recently reviewed photos of 2 seperate 31-2's which have the same bilge appearance as mine, and so I believe the surveyor was incorrect about this being a prior repair..  

Would appreciate any advice on managing this process with the adjuster and insurance company and what possible repairs may look like, if they are even feasible.  Thinking that something similar to what Dan and Kika did on Uma could be a reasonable fix.  A very sad ending to our season - this has been a great boat for us and my 7-year old daughter is distraught that the boat may not be salvageable.  

Thank you!

Andrew

[Andrew Milkovits]

Looks like the photos may not have made it - trying again with them attached. 

Andrew

On Nov 13, 2024, at 4:35 PM, Andrew Milkovits <amilk...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Rich Glucksman]

Oh man! What did the yard do wrong in blocking? Interested to know what to guard against. 

I also have a 31-2, in RI (upper bay). 

Be well,
Rich
401-952-7114

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[Daniel Hoffman]

That's terrible news.

I'm so sorry to hear this happened to a sister vessel of Fourth and Goal.

Dan
Fourth and Goal.

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[Andrew Milkovits]

Thank you, it is very disappointing to say the least.  

Regarding the proper blocking technique, see this link, in particular the response by user "RichH".  https://www.sailnet.com/threads/pearson-36-hull-concavity.288273/ 

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[Manual Mechanic]

Hello Andrew, 

That’s a bummer but you also have 6 months ahead to address the issue. Wishing you the best of luck.

Wondering what type of keel is it? I also happen to own a 1987 P31-2 with a winged keel currently on 

City Island, NY.

Thanks,

Julian

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[Pauleen Ward Brown]

Hi Andrew 

Our 31-2 does not have a gel coat finished bilge. It is fiberglass as the inspector described.  Interesting that he should believe that. If you need photos I am happy to help 

Pauleen

Coram Deo

Hull #20

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[Robert Franklin]

Andrew,

I know a lot about this particular problem. 

Unless you have a very indulgent insurance company, you will spend more on a correct repair than the value of your boat even at a non-compromised price point. Even then you may remain unsettled by what you have observed so far.

I have retired from cruising level sailing. I will be blunt. I am desperate to move my P36-1 onto someone, someone special. For me that has limited my outreach to members of my Yacht Club in Boston or to a Pearson owner, such as someone on this group.

You can buy my P36 in wonderful condition, especially keel, hull, rigging for about what you would pay for a proper repair. I've been looking, as others in our group know, to find someone for my boat (owned 44 years) to continue my appreciation of the virtues of 70s and 80s Shaw Pearsons. 

The defects described in the material you linked are, in my opinion, confined to individual boats; the result of events like you have experienced. Contrary to statements about Pearson manufacturing lapses, the older Pearson are very strong, well built early fiberglass boats.

As many on our group will attest, that level of build was as much due to a lack of understanding of fiberglass construction and its strength than from a conscientious desire to get it right. However they did get it right.

You will find problems with any construction and that applies to Swans, Oysters, and Sabres. You may be aware from following this group what to look for, such as wet Balsa cored decks. That construction to save weight above the hull was the industry standard at the time and not the best approach when people soon became obsessed with poking holes in their decks to attach all kinds of gadgets and go fast fixtures.

I probably haven't helped. But maybe there is a silver lining to your cloud if you plan to continue sailing. Of course you have many choices available, if the repair option turns out to be unsatisfactory for you.

At that point you may be looking for a replacement. The P36-1 It is an enormous step up from what you have in terms of interior space, utility for cruising and a go almost anywhere capability. There are a number of P36-1 owners in our group. Reach out to them if you want to know more.  

I'll stop the pitch. File this email away and forget it. I wish you luck with the next phase involving your Pearson. I hope it goes perfectly for you. If it doesn't I'd be glad to chat with you.

Bob Franklin

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Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
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[Peter McGowan]

Bummer it didn’t pop back out when they took away the jackstands but then you might not have figured out the cracks in the grid.  I wonder if it’s just a buckle and you could pop it back out by building a brace elevated over the buckle on the outside with 2 x 4s and pulling it out with a threaded rod through the hull and some bolts and washers.  Sort of a giant cutless bearing puller?  

On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 4:35 PM Andrew Milkovits <amilk...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi All,

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Wait, there is a 4 inch deflection of the hull?  Is this aft of the keel?  More photos would help. 4 inches is a huge deflection.  HUGE.   Where is the defelection?  How tall are the floors (transverse ribs below the cabin sole). Get a look at the forward most keel bolt.  Are there signs of stress around it?  Does in look like it was over-tightened? 

In general, when the boat is blocked or on a cradle, most of the weight (90%?) is on the keel.  The stands are mostly just keeping the boat balanced.  Maybe a few hundred lbs on each.  This means that the structure of the boat can carry the load of the hull and transfer it to the keel.  If it could balance on the keel without the stands the structure should be fine.  It should handle that.  Likewise, when the boat is in the slings the keel should hang firmly in place without deflection.  When you're sailnig and heeled over 30 degrees the keel should remain firm.  That's what that grid structure is for. 

A grounding makes the keel rotate relative to the hull.  Pushes up in back and pulls down in front.  If the grounding is hard enough the grid structures that support the keel will fail from the impact loading.  They can crack and the tabbing (all secondary bonding in polyester resin) will pull from the hull.  This will happen in places you cannot see.   Now the keel support structure is compromised and further normal use of the boat will exasperate the problem by continually flexing the now compromised structure and fatiguing the bonds causing further delamination.  That maybe doesn't matter at that point because the proper repair is removing ALL the original tabbing and re-tabbing from a fresh hull surface with epoxy resin.  There is no saving the old tabbing. 

There will be some flexing of the hull when sailing and when blocking on stands.  That's normal.  But if the flexing is excessive the glass fibers in the laminate will start to break.  And tabbing will start to delaminate.  4 inches is way more than normal.  Even if it "pops out" the damage is done.  The tabbing of the floors will not survive that. 

It can be fixed.  A very big job that to do right requires a lot of disassembly of the interior to expose the entire grid, additional blocking of the hull with more stands, removal of all the original compromised tabbing and re-tabbing with more modern biax fabric and epoxy resin (maybe vinylester but you save very little so, why?) and doing the layup in a continuous (hot coating) process.  You CANNOT do a layer, let it cure, and do more layers.  Nope.  They all go on in one continuous process.  And prep work is key (as always).  A big job that requires planning and time management to get right.  But it can be done.  Is it worth doing is a separate question. 


More photos...


Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-11-14 7:35 am, Peter McGowan wrote:Bummer it didn't pop back out when they took away the jackstands but then you might not have figured out the cracks in the grid.  I wonder if it's just a buckle and you could pop it back out by building a brace elevated over the buckle on the outside with 2 x 4s and pulling it out with a threaded rod through the hull and some bolts and washers.  Sort of a giant cutless bearing puller?  

[Peter McGowan]

I read it as the sole is off by 4" at the aft end, but (looking at the 2 pictures he attached) there's only light crazing/cracking on the grid and some hairline cracks in the tabbing (maybe a 6" crack?).  My assumption is the hull deflection is small but closer to the forward end and forming a crown that the sole is sitting on, so pop the deflection and grind out that tabbing to replace it.   But I'm an optimist, lol.  As you noted, more pictures.  

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[Andrew Milkovits]

Great questions and thoughts.  I'll be at the boat tomorrow and can take more pictures.  I'll also be sure to look around the entire grid, with more focus on the forward keel bolts.  Nothing stuck out to me, but I was mostly focused on the aft section as that is the part that was pushed up. 

Regarding the size of the deflection, I suppose it's tough to say until I'm up there again and can measure.  Peter is correct, the 4"  mentioned is the distance that the cabin sole was proud or elevated above the last transverse rib (where my feet are placed in the 2nd photo).  Normally the cabin sole lays flat across all of the ribs. The deflection seems to be in the spot just aft of the keel and just forward of the transverse rib that is cracked. From outside and below, it looks like a gentle sloping dome shape behind the keel. 

Regarding repair, if I were to be the one funding an extensive and expensive repair by someone else, I don't think it's worth it.  If I were to add a couple of ribs like Dan and Kika did, I would feel comfortable doing it myself...but it sounds like this necessitates a much more extensive repair.  My hope was that I could add another transverse rib in the space between the final keel bolts and the cracked rib.  

Does anyone have any experience working with an insurance company on something similar?  I'm afraid that, given what Dan noted, they will reference the evidence of a prior keel strike as the original cause.  Note that it has seen 6 years of use without issue, until now.  

Bob - Thanks for your note and the plug for your boat.  Your email and information is most definitely filed away for reference if we come to a conclusion that this boat is a lost cause.  The P36 doesn't check all of our boxes, but it does check several of them and the provenance of Arion is significant.    

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[Guy Johnson]

Did something happen when the boat was hauled? 

I think it would take a pretty hard hit to cause that kind of deflection, if you hit something that hard while sailing it would have been unforgettable. 

This repair can be done by the owner, i'd plan on removing the cabin sole to accomplish the repair. 

I can't imagine an extra rib installed between two existing ribs will fix the issue. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Milkovits <amilk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2024 1:34 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] 31-2 Cracking Keel Grid

 

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[Robert Franklin]

Andrew,

If, after you examine your boat more closely, you decide this problem has been caused by the Yard, that should be your position and your insurance company and the Yard's insurer will work it out.

The Yard should not be resentful of your claim. After all, that is why they have insurance.

At Savin Hill Yacht Club all boats, hundreds of them, are hauled by our own equipment and a 100 percent member-volunteer group that participates. The "chief" is extraordinarily careful to the point of annoyance, but that is the side to err on.

The problem comes after the keel is blocked and the stands set. I have four on each side (one at the bow. My pre-occupation at that moment is running around from side to side, restraining the gorillas from tightening the stands. "Please, please, snug only!" I also hang a sign on each stand saying the same things, but many of them can't read. 

Some understand how important this from their own boat experiences. Not all. All you need is one who doesn't. The screw mechanism on boat stands can create immense pressure on the hull in the wrong location. There is no problem if the stands are used as intended. Snug, balanced and checked from time to time; how often depending on the surface on which they are placed - pavement, gravel, dirt, etc.

But you know all this.

Bob

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[Last Resort]

Some FYI, I don't have any deflection that I can notice, but I do have the same crack inside the 2nd section from the engine like yours where the table is, and it starts at the drain hole and goes to starboard about 4".  I marked it a few years back at the end of the 4" and it hasn't progressed since then.  It may actually not have anything directly to do with your deflection, or maybe I have some worries down the road too, I'll see.  I hit a rock at 6kts and the boat jumped in the air about 2" about 10 years ago, and aside from some minor  wing keel repair, the boat came out of it with no other issues.....these Pearson 31-2 are built like tanks, so not sure what could have happened to yours that caused such a bad issue.  Good Luck!!!

[Guy Johnson]

Did the boatyard drop it on keel?

On Nov 15, 2024, at 9:01 AM, Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Some FYI, I don't have any deflection that I can notice, but I do have the same crack inside the 2nd section from the engine like yours where the table is, and it starts at the drain hole and goes to starboard about 4".  I marked it a few years back at the end of the 4" and it hasn't progressed since then.  It may actually not have anything directly to do with your deflection, or maybe I have some worries down the road too, I'll see.  I hit a rock at 6kts and the boat jumped in the air about 2" about 10 years ago, and aside from some minor  wing keel repair, the boat came out of it with no other issues.....these Pearson 31-2 are built like tanks, so not sure what could have happened to yours that caused such a bad issue.  Good Luck!!!

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[Andrew Milkovits]

Thanks for the information, "Last Resort".  Sounds like the same transverse rib is cracked, although my crack goes to port from that hole.  I have the fin keel model.  It is somewhat reassuring you haven't seen it progress and haven't noticed any ill-effects.  If they readjust the boat on the stands and re-block the keel and the deflection pops out I could be somewhat reassured...but probably not reassured enough to feel comfortable sailing the boat in any kind of wind/wave conditions with my family onboard.

Guy - I'm curious about whether they dropped it too. I didn't see any obvious damage to the keel but I wasn't looking either.  I know I hadn't hit anything, and my immediate thought and research put me down the path of this being caused by blocking too far aft on the keel, causing it to rotate up at the aft end.  

I have not hit anything in the 6 seasons I've sailed the boat, and we've put a lot of miles under the keel.  I did get stuck in some mud at very slow speeds, nothing jolting that stopped us short or anything along those lines, just a slow-down that I was able to back out of.  During the 2023 season the keel did come into contact with the ground while on anchor - it swung in an unexpected direction on an outgoing tide and was stuck on the keel and heeled over maybe 15 degrees.  There was no wind and wave conditions whatsoever, dead calm.  The keel has some marks on the bottom from this.    I didn't think much of it as it was all very gentle in nature, and the rudder never came into contact, etc.  Maybe the keel strike from before my ownership weakened things, and then several years of sailing, some improper blocking and the grounding incident last year all contributed to this failure?  

Not to be a complete conspiracy theorist, but interestingly the marina didn't haul the boat out when they said they would and I instead received a message stating they "had an equipment failure and are running behind, but that my boat would be hauled early the next week."  When Thursday of the following week rolled around and I hadn't heard from them I gave a call and asked about my boat.  I explained I was expecting to have heard back early in the week.  The guy who answered the phone said he "needed to talk to someone" and after a little while back came on and said "yeah, it's been hauled".  Maybe nothing, but somewhat interesting given my boat is damaged.  I am very curious what the marine adjuster determines on Monday after inspecting.   

I unfortunately couldn't get to the boat today due to the fact a steam boiler went offline last night at a rental property we have and I need to meet the plumber today.  When it rains it pours!   I'll get up to the boat this weekend and will take more photos. 

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[Alptraveler]

FYI....Practical Sailor just posted a YouTube video on Keel Matrix and discussion on inspecting them. It may be working ck'ing out....

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