Holding tank

[Mike Mayer]

I'm going to be replacing my porta-potti with a fixed head this winter.  Anyone have any suggestions on holding tank size?

We ( the wife and occasionally a teen or two)  primarily sail in Long Island Sound - (an NDZ) on weekend trips with a trip or two out to Block Island for a week.

 
I am guessing the best place to install it is under the V berth..

P30 #475
s/v Pharon

Slan go Foill,  (Gaelic  "bye for now")
Mike

Semper Paratus
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Pionta Guinness, le do thoil
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There is nothing - absolute nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
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"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; But right or wrong, our country!" - Commodore Stephen Decatur.
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Smooth seas never made a skilled mariner!

[RICHARD USEN]

My boat (1979 P-30) had a V shaped tank. You might be able to find one from a scrapping yard. I plugged the o’board seacock and ran everything into the holding tank, maybe 15 gallons, and I emptied it whenever I was 3 miles out w/ a Jabsco electric macerating pump. The tank was never full. I also had a deck pumpout but never needed it.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

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[Joel Bondy]

There are a number of tank manufacturers: Todd, Moeller, Ronco, Dometic and others. They have a lot of shapes. I've never jheard anyone complain their tank was too big. We have a 6 gallon tank and I wish I had more. The three of us can fill it in a weekend. IRMV
 
FWIW: According to Peggy Hall, the "Head Mistress", most tanks are under vented and that this is a major contributor to boat aroma. Good ventilation encourages aerobic bacterial action. Anaerobic bacterial action smells. She recommends two 1" vents to allow cross ventilation. The port vent should exit the hull to starboard and vice versa. That way when you heel, the tank's leeward vent opening, which would be canted down, would be connected to the windward (higher) thruhull.  I'd hate to see tank contents work their way out the vent and run down the top-sides. Under the v-berth would be perfect for this kind of installation. I've seen the deck pumpout fitting installed in the anchor locker. One problem with this is that pumpout hoses have a lever valve that needs clearance to open. The locker can inhibit that. Also, any drippage is then in the anchor locker

Joel
Pokey III
'78 P323 #101
Bayside, NY
 

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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 12:35:44 -0700
From: gra...@yahoo.com
Subject: [pearson ] Holding tank
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Diane-public]

I used Raritan for a new tank. High marks for service, lots of shapes & sizes.

...diane

[mgr...@thegrahamlawfirm.com]

Phalon.  I upgraded my Pearson 10m (32.8 ft) a few years ago from direct discharge to a Ronco 30 gallon tank, best thing ever. I spent a lot of time with both Graham Bryan and Dan Pfeiffer on email  getting the plans and pictures of what they had done (graham) and Dan (planned to do). 

I had to cut out the forward bulkhead (under forward berth) and re glass it further forward, to accommodate the 30 gallon Ronco tank, but it is great. 

I can make photos available on Dropbox if you like. Dans plan was theoretically superior, because it was a custom tank, rounded v shape to fit the hull, which kept weight lower, but in the end I used Graham's plans, and even his drawings to ronco of where o mold in vents, dip tubes, etc, because it was easy. 

I did have to cut and hinge the forward berth wood top, and sawzall out a bulkhead, but had a pro glass it back in.  

By the way, on a different boat, we had a mechanic in Georgetown exuma wire a new macerator in backwards. Really bad idea. Filled the vent hoses with nasty stuff that hardened and blocked. Blew off a few hoses. What sounded like a fan belt slipping was air whistling out of the tank fom the macerator running backwards. 

Finally, I just added a remote tank gauge that uses metl strips on the outside of the plastic tank. Wonderful. 

Mike Graham. 

Bali Hai, Pearson 10m

Spike, IP 44

[Robert Franklin]

Mike (Mayer)

I'll add my experience to the discussion. 

Its been a while since I owned my P-30, but if I recall correctly, there is a lot of valuable, usable space under the v berths and space on a 30 foot boat is always less than what you would like to have.  I would be very reluctant to loose that space to a holding tank.

About a decade ago, I worked closely with the President of Dometic over a period of several weeks to design a proto-type holding tank to fit rather perfectly in the deep v'd space behind the toilet in; a space that has almost no other value or purpose.  As a P30 owner, you will know right away the space I am talking about.  Dometic is distinguished among tank manufacturers for making a heavier wall thickness and basically doing everything just a little better.  Cost was not significantly higher, however, than the off the shelf tanks from other manufacturers.  Even if it were double, for me it was worth it at the time to get what I wanted.  I recall, also, that Dometic installed certain dip tubes and venting ports that made hooking the tank up to the various ins and much more convenient than the closest competitor.  This is because everything entered and exited from the top.  Much safer and almost no risk of leakage.  Thus, the tank had no fitting except on the surface furthest from the liquid level.  Naturally, this would change with a full tank in a heeled situation.  But most of the time, the liquid in the tank would not contact any of the openings in the tank. 

My recollection is there were two outs, one in, one vent, one access cap ... all on the top.

Check out the space I am referring to behind the toilet.  I don't want to go through the trouble to retrieve my drawings, notes and correspondence unless you (or someone else decides) (as I did) that the space behind the toilet is the deal location for the tank.  If the P30 was on the drawing board today, that's where the tank would be located.

Another feature of that space is because it is more vertical than lateral, the movement of effluent in the tank is more limited even without the use of baffles.  This naturally prevents over spilling into vent tubes when heeling.

The tank properly dimensioned just drops into the space and is confined by its v shape as it wedges into the v shape of the space.  To be on the safe side some limited amount of securing would be advisable, but nothing like the ordeal you would have to go through to install a tank into the V berth.  I've done both installations, and, believe me, there is no much more work required for the v berth installation that behind the toilet.

I have no idea whether Dometic would custom make a tank for you the way it did for me.  I tried to solicit business at the time among the P30 crowd, to return the favor Dometic did for me.  There wasn't much interest at the time.  That was probably because even as recently as 10 years ago, people were not as conscientious about holding waste aboard, as they are today.  By now many P30 owners have made some kind of conversion, so there are probably less candidates for doing what you are contemplating.

The other nice thing about the tank being behind the toilet, was that the short distance for running the waste lines, proximity of pumps, or waste choppers, etc.  Everything was right there. This limited cutting and limited the holes required. It turned out to be a very neat install and used space that was almost unusable for any other purpose.

My P30 went to Long Island from Boston.  It may still be sailing there.  Maybe even in your area, if you wanted to take a look.  But, again, I'd have to do some research to locate the current owner and only if your enthusiasm warrants me doing so.

So, there you have my input on your project.

Oh, and the the tank was reasonably good sized.  I want to say around 10 gallons.  But I'd have to check on that.  I could be mistaken, so don't count on anything unless verified.

My current boat, a P36-1 has the tank, about 19 gallons, under the V-berths.  I did that installation and it was not easy.  Plus, I lost some valuable space.  Plus, the location in the bow is not the best for boat trim etc.  And, I had to give a lot of thought to the weight of 19 gallons of effluent bouncing around in a seaway.  So the tank had to be very well secured.  At best your working in small spaces and trying to anticipate what could go wrong. 

I suppose a lot of people fudge the holding tank install and hope for the best.  This probably works for a significant majority of the time.

Bob Franklin

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[Jeff Griglack]

The P30 does not have an anchor locker.

I installed a 13 gallon, rectangular Todd tank under the v-berth. In order to do that, I had to raise the v-berth decking by about 1".  This wasn't that big a deal, since the original plywood for the v-berth was all sagging and needed to be replaced anyway.  I cut the original, leaving about 3 inches around the edge (where it was tabbed to the hull), put in a 1" spacer, and screwed the new plywood pieces to to that.

The tank has a single, 3/8" or 5/8" vent on it.  I plumbed it with a Y-valve going to a manual pump-out through the thru-hull (using a Whale diaphragm pump) and a pump out on deck for use at a pumping station.  The only time the thru-hull has been used was a test, with water, on land, when I installed the system, so I have considered removing that section of the plumbing.

I found that the majority of the smell from my system came from the anaerobic bacteria that was trapped in the intake line (i.e. the line hose to pump sea water into the head).  I stopped using that, and simply pour a glass of fresh water into the head before use.  This has worked find for the past 13 years, though it does not get heavy use.

Hope this helps,

Jeff Griglack

[RICHARD USEN]

My present boat has an interesting S&S gimmick in the head: The seawater intake for the head comes from the sink drain just above the seacock. Because the sink is below the waterline when on a Port tack, the seacock needs to be closed when sailing. Then, flushing the head gets fresh water from the sink.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

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[Ed]

I had a custom built holding tank for P 33-2  made by a company called  Triple M Plastics in Kennebunk , Maine ,They can make any size you want to fit any space  and will install reinforced threads for all your fittings,They

Were great to work with , I had a print of the dimensions and they worked from that, I also made a prototype out of  old paneling [ very thin plywood ]   and used that to made sure it would fit in the space in the lazerette

It is about 14 gallons      Ed     http://www.triplemplastics.com/

 

Ed Pinanski

“ Querencia “

1986 Pearson 33-2 # 37

Beverly, MA [ on the North Shore ]

 

 

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I did the same thing from Tripple M.  My tank is v-shaped, 4' wide at the top and flat on the bottom (not curved) and a foot or so for/aft.   Holds 33 gallons or so?  Has baffles and ports for dip tubes.  I would recommend putting all ports close to the center to minimize flow-back into the hoses when heeled.    The capacity is great and for those times you don't want the weight empty it.   There are some photos of what I did here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/v-berth_rebuild.htm

I made a full size mock-up from foam insualtion board.  Besides seeing that the tank fits the space you need to see that you can get it into the boat and into the space through the companionway/hatch/openings.  You don't want to pay lots of money for a tank that will be great in the space but won't fit through the door. 

 

I also have the head intake on the same seacock as the sink drain as Dick Usen described.  I can flush with sea water or fresh water from the tanks via the sink.  Also easy to winterize.
 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Michael Mayer]

Bob,

Did you use the entire space behind the head? 

There is lots of space in the v berth but I don't find it easily accessible. There always seems to be stuff in the v berth blocking the access.

My first thought was to put it behind the head due to ease and proximity but I do store stuff in there though access is difficult at the very bottom.

I could see using the bottom 3rd of it but would want to get at least a 15 gallon size. 

Mike M.

Sent from an electronic device.

[RICHARD USEN]

I used the space behind the head for oil skins. The area under the forward  vee berth is otherwise useless. The aft 1/3 of the underberth had my wye valves (one removed), the macerater pump, the water tank of course, a couple of life jackets and the pressure pump for the hot water heater which was aft of the ¼ berth. Cramped but worked.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

[Michael Mayer]

Where'd you keep your tools, buckets and stuff?

Sent from an electronic device.

[RICHARD USEN]

The bucket lived in the sail locker. The tools were in a plastic toolbox that sat on the floor of the cabin. The ¼ berth cushion lived in the garage attic and saw the boat for the first time when it sold. So, that space held the cockpit cushions, and that sort of thing. The 5 lifejackets lived in a bag in the vee berth. I tried to keep the boat looking as shipshape as possible and w/  any support equipment like a water heater, hidden but accessable.  I also modified where I could to make my life easier. For instance, the exhaust system bolted to the manifold w/ SS studs and nuts, so I could remove the whole assembly in minutes so I could reach the back of the engine, coupling etc. I made a remote dipstick so I could check the oil from the cabin. This became the prototype for the dipstick Don Moyer sells. I also installed FWC which puts the raw water pump on top of the flywheel.

 

My new boat is a bit more yar and I’ve fixed it up a bit more carefully. It had minimal storage for a bigger boat. The cabin sole is varnished teak/holly and the plastic toolbox slid around too much. So, I made up three triangular tool boxes that fill the void above the space used by feet on the companionway ladder. My wife didn’t want them because there wasn’t room for her size 8 feet. Since my size 14s fit, I figured she wouldn’t have any trouble. And she didn’t. She likes the appearance and function now. The tool bins pivot out on 5/16” wood dowels for access to the contents. The Tartan ladder has two vertical sides, instead of the open rungs on the  pearson ladder but you could modify it.    

[Robert Franklin]

I do not have a precise recollection but the shape was intended to fill most of the space and it topped off near the top of the separator between the toilet and the side of the hull.  This would mean a full tank would have effluent at a level higher than the base of the toilet.  I do not understand fluid dynamics well enough to know whether that is a problem.  The tank had all its access ports on the top surface and the exit ports functioned with dip tubes ending near the bottom of the tank to pick up and dispose of the waste.

I think as long as part of the tube was above the level of the contents of the tank, there is no problem with this set up.  Perhaps someone else on the list will comment about this issue.  I cannot recall, and perhaps never actually calculated, the volume of the tank in this location.  Of course you would want to fill it with water gallon by gallon before installing to know its capacity. 

Lucky. I just found my drawing and the drawing done by Dometic, June 1994.  Its almost a decade ago.  Who knows whether you could get the same thing done now? These will show you exactly what I did.  There was room for everything to the right of the tank, valves, pumps, etc. It turned out to be a very neat installation with everything accessible and where it should be, in the head.

I would attach the drawings ... 2 pages ... but I recall the system does not allow attachments.  Let me know if you would like copies mailed or faxed.  Or if someone knows how I can scan and send, tell me.

Bob Franklin

[RICHARD USEN]

As long as you have an airgap, liquids won’t syphon. If you fill the tank up to the end of the fill hose, it could syphon, but only until the air gap happens. When I built my cat boat, I was concerned about sewage running down the outside of the hull and ran the vent down to the boot top stripe. The first time I went to Cuttyhunk, it was a long trip on the Stbd tack and the vent syphoned and filled the tank w/ water. I realized as soon as I saw the boat that it was heavy in the bow.  

 

My present boat has a 30 gallon water tank in the bow that I try to keep empty, also the holding tank a few feet aft.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Franklin
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 9:48 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Holding tank

 

I do not have a precise recollection but the shape was intended to fill most of the space and it topped off near the top of the separator between the toilet and the side of the hull.  This would mean a full tank would have effluent at a level higher than the base of the toilet.  I do not understand fluid dynamics well enough to know whether that is a problem.  The tank had all its access ports on the top surface and the exit ports functioned with dip tubes ending near the bottom of the tank to pick up and dispose of the waste.

--

[Robert Franklin]

Mike Mayer:

In case you missed my out of order message, here is the important part, again:

Lucky. I just found my drawing and the drawing done by Dometic, June 1994.  Its almost a decade ago.  Who knows whether you could get the same thing done now? These will show you exactly what I did.  There was room for everything to the right of the tank, valves, pumps, etc. It turned out to be a very neat installation with everything accessible and where it should be, in the head.

I would attach the drawings ... 2 pages ... but I recall the system does not allow attachments.  Let me know if you would like copies mailed or faxed.  Or if someone knows how I can scan and send, tell me.

[Jeff Griglack]

Bob,

Google groups allows attachments.  It was the Yahoo group that would not allow attachments.  Can you please forward the drawings to the list.

Jeff

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| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
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| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
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[steve_hayes_maine]

I had to add a holding tank to my P323 to comply with the no discharge zone regulations. I ended up putting a vertical tank behind it (tore out the sink). If I had to do it again, I would consider an Airhead or another composting toilet. It would install in the same space as your head without the need to install a tank or run lines, etc.

It needs to be ventilated, but so does the holding tank. I use a solar powered fan with an upgraded battery capacity (runs 24x7).

Steve Hayes
S/v Redeemed
P323 #63

[Robert Franklin]

Jeff:

Drawings attached.

[Mike Mayer]

These are great Bob,
Thanks.

 

Mike M.

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From: Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Holding tank

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What are the dimensions of the tank?

Dan Pfeiffer

[Robert Franklin]

Sorry, Dan. 

I purged my P30 file a while ago and may have discarded the dimensions. With Dometic's reference number on its drawing, I assumed it can provide the dimensions.

If you or someone else gets that information please post it.

Bob Franklin

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