new head sail; 150% genoa or Code Zero?

[Guy Johnson]

I'm looking at the options for a new headsail for Puffin our 1973 10M. 

The sail that is being replaced measures approximately 140-145%. 

We also have a 125% headsail and a storm jib. 

A local loft quoted me $2,500 for a new 155% genoa and around $4,000 for a Code Zero on a dedicated furler. 

Code Zero will require a 2:1 halyard to create sufficient luff tension. 

Price aside, which sail will be more useful?

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

[Dave Cole]

I think a 155 is simply too big for general use.   If anything I'd go to a 135 or so.  I'm on Lake Erie...the winds are wildly variable.    It seems like we either have 15 plus knots of wind or it is dying.    So I either have too much sail up or I can't have enough and it's time to start the engine.  A partially furled 155 has lousy sail shape.

I've never used a code zero.  Quantum sails says the typical code zero mylar doesn't hold up well for cruising.   Have you read that?

Dave

10M

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[Bob Maxwell]

In general, the Genoa is more versatile.  You can use it to point to somewhere around 40 degrees AWA.  A Code 0 might get to 45 degrees in very light air.  By the time you get to 15kts of wind or so, it's more like 60 degrees AWA, so mighty poor pointing.  Though with both your selections, you're probably over powered at 15kts or above.  The Code 0 will be better off the wind in light air, but only to about 90 degrees AWA.  It's not a running sail.

Re: the Genoa, I would only use a 155 if you plan to race and have people to pile on the rail.  Otherwise, that size is a PITA.  You can't see around it.  It's harder to tack and sheet in.  Unless you have it built with the clew high, you can't see under it, and a high clew defeats the purpose of having a 155 to large extent.  You'll give up very little speed and gain a lot of friendliness with a 135-145 for general use.

We have a 155 for racing, but I'd never use it for anything but racing if I had another choice.

Bob

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[Robert Franklin]

Not familiar with the abbreviation, AWA.  Is it Apparent Wind Angle?

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Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047
617 277 5900 Cell
617 277 5901 Fax
email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[Guy Johnson]

Dave, Bob thanks for your replies. 

In general I think the #1 genoa fits my current use, but I have to recognize that's a least partially because those are the sails I have. 

This is a list of the 3 head sails I have, i'm looking to replace the #1.

We also have a symetrical spinnaker. 

#1 Genoa 145%
luff 41'11" leach 40'5" foot 21'10" lp 20.71      441 sq.ft.

#2 Genoa 125% ?
luff 40'7"  leach 39'    foot 18'8"  lp 17.81   364 sq.ft.

storm jib 'gale sail'
David Howard Sailmakers, Marshfield, MA
luff 21'8''   leach 19'    foot 11'5"  lp 10         108 sq.ft.

We sail mostly in Massachusetts bay North of Boston, winds are typically light in the summer. Typically I launch with the #2 on the furler and switch to the #1 for the summer months and then back to the #2 in the fall. 

The LP difference between a 145 and 155 is about a foot and a half, 20.5' vs. 22'. 

Actual size of new #1 may be closer to 145% than 155%. 

Guy

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bob Maxwell <jrmax...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 2:19 PM
To: pearson-boats
Subject: Re: [pearson ] new head sail; 150% genoa or Code Zero?

 

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[Peter Trunfio]

Last year I switched from a 135% to a 145% on our 10M. The extra sail area was very helpful in light air.

The new genoa also has a foam luff pad in the middle half of the luff so that it keeps some of its shape when furled in heavy air.

The biggest challenge we had was learning how to tack the larger sail. We actually do it in two stages through the tack.

The "working" jib trimmer releases once the sail starts to flog through the turn as normal.

The "lazy" (soon to be working trimmer) has to take up some slack on the (soon to be working jib sheet)...but can't pull all the way in just yet. They have to wait for the clew to clear the forward lower shroud on their side of the boat.

If they start pulling in immediately after the other sheet is released, all they end up doing is pulling the clew around the mast and into the forward lower...where it gets hung up until the wind grabs the sail and blows it all through to the new tack.

Once the clew clears the forward lower, they can trim in the rest of the sheet.

If I pull in big arm lengths of sheet, I can get it sheeted pretty close to Close Hauled before the wind grabs the sail.

Some of my slower, shorter armed crew can't get to Close Hauled without having to use the winch to trim in the last couple of feet.

PMT

Peter M. Trunfio

s/v Annandale

1974 Pearson 10M (#66)

Harlem Yacht Club

City Island, NY

+1.917.640.6450 (c)

[Bob Maxwell]

Sorry - Yes, apparent wind angle

Bob

[Peter Ogilvie]

The code zero is a reaching sail that won't go to weather well so less of an all purpose sail.  Never used one so don't know if they can be reefed but that would be a big issue to explore for all around use.  Personally, would go with a code zero over an Asymetric spinnaker for its closer winded performance and poled out for DDW.

The 155% is a big sail that is ideal in lighter air from hard on the wind to a broad reach.  Can be reefed to a l35% especially if you have a foam luff added.  Can reef further for reaching in higher winds but danger of stretching fabric and making for a baggy sail.  If you are sailing in a predominantly light air area, it's a good sail.   135% is a more universal sail that will reef and tack easier/better but not the drive you'll appreciated in winds less than 10k

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Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047
617 277 5900 Cell
617 277 5901 Fax
email:  robertm...@gmail.com

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[Bill Robart]

If you are not going to race and you don't feel the need to get to a destination at a specific time and don't insist on  getting there under sail alone then I think you have all the sails you need. With a 155% low cut genoa it is very difficult to remove the sail from the foil when you want to put up a smaller sail. Having a sail that is only connected to the boat by the halyard and a tack fitting makes for exciting times on a pitching/rolling fore deck.

The additional speed between a 140% and a 155% sail is small and general only important for racing. We're probably talking seconds per mile not minutes. Good helmsmanship and good crew work will likely gain more than the bigger sail.

When I bought my P-33-1 it had 2 155% gennys (one Dacron and one Mylar), a 130%, a 110%, and a storm jib. All were set up for a roller furler. For day sailing the 155% would only go up when the wind was forecast to be light so the 130% got lots of use. The 110% was used only when the winds were forecast to be above 15 to start and getting stronger. The mainsail had two sets of reef points.

After my kids were born the admiral wanted to keep the heeling at less than 30 degrees so I decided to remove the roller furler as it's only real benefit was getting rid of the sail when coming up to the mooring. If a head sail change was needed the furler made life miserable as I was essentially sailing single handed. Changing head sails is much easier, for me, with hanked on sails.

When racing the 155% went up unless a squall was forecast. Any sail shortening was done with the reefs in the main and perhaps some luffing. If the winds were up in the high teens and forecast to increase we'd sometimes opt for the 130%.

For day sailing  a code 0 won't get used much unless you sail where the winds are chronically light and you insist on sailing. I tolerated light air when racing but when cruising I'd use the engine.

Bill

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Just a point here on clew height...
If you raise the clew of a sail keeping the LP the same the sail has exactly the same area.  1/2BH where B is luff and H is LP.  Math is math.  So raising the design clew does not change the sail area.  You do move the sheeting point aft and on a large sail like a 155 it may go too far aft to keep on the track so that needs to be considered.  And you now have more area higher in the sail which has two potential effects - more area higher where there is a bit more wind for drive but also more heeling force, and you loose the end plate effect (for what it's worth on boats like ours) because the foot is not in contact with the deck.   End plate effect is supposed to increase the efficiency of the sail by blocking air from going around the foot. 

If I were getting a whole suit of cruising sails I would try to set the clew heights so that all the sails sheeted to about the same place.  That means smaller sails would have higher clews.  But you can also end up with a sail with the clew out of reach from deck which can also be a problem from time to time. 

I have a 125 that is my primary sail.  It has a full luff and relatively high clew.  Good enough performance for general sailing and great visibility.  I would like a 145ish sail for lighter air.  I don't find a rolled genoa, even with foam luff as I have, is a good substitute for the right size sail.   I do have a roller furling.  On my P26 I had a tuff luff and liked it a lot for running headsail changes while cruising.  Typically changing to larger sail as wind died and waves lingered.  I could raise new larger sail inside or outside then tack if needed and drop smaller sail.  Full control and no loss of speed/stability.  The p26 was lousy in lightening air with lingering waves under just the main.  But, I did not set my 10M up that way.  Seemed like too much sail to handle on a pitching foredeck singlehanded.  I think that was a good choice though sometimes I wonder.  It worked very well indeed on the 26. 

 

I like the idea of a code 0.  Especially if it could be set forward on a little sprit.  12-18" would do.  Might need a longer craine at the masthead to keep it clear of the jib.  But what a nice setup to have that with a 135 or so genoa?   The 10M had an optional bowsprit extension that I have seen a couple times.  It put the headstay out in front of the standard stem with a bob-stay below though I think you could get along without that for a code 0.  How big is the roller for a code 0?  It would also be a good anchor roller platform.  I think it was the same unit used as an anchor platform on the 323 but there without the bobstay.   But maybe a carbon fiber fabrication would do as well or better.  Like the retracting sprit on a J/105 but fixed and just 18" or so long. 

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Guy Johnson]

Good points all, I'm not firm on the idea of a max sized head sail 155%. I only compete in one race a year and it's a local pursuit race. 

My 145% is old and has way too much draft and thus heel, I'd like something bigger than the 125% with good shape, a new 145% is an option, but if i'm going 145% why not go all the way to 155%? 

The code zero I have information on is a Doyle UPS (I like the Doyle loft in Salem, MA). 

Here's what they say about the UPS. 

-------------------

The Doyle Utility Power Sail (UPS) has proven for many years to be one of the most versatile cruising sailings, with an incredibly wide range of use. Coupled with modern Top-Down Furlers and powerful torque ropes that make the sail easy to set or furl, the UPS is a transformational sail for sailors who don't want to give up power in light air, or performance at any wind speed while reaching or running. The UPS is especially valuable for modern cruising yachts that have done away with larger, overlapping Genoas, but still need horsepower in lighter air. UPS Advantages:  Sets and Furls on its own Torque Rope and Furler – can be hoisted in advance of setting the sail and controlled from the cockpit  Goes Upwind and Downwind  Flies like a spinnaker, but does not collapse like a spinnaker – tighter luff and high-strength Torque Rope stabilize luff and are more forgiving to the skipper  33-160 degree Apparent Wind Range

---------

5kt wind speed at 33 AWA, 25kt wind speed at 160 AWA.

If the UPS lives up to it's claims it could be a very userful sail.... but it would mean hoisting it every time I wanted to use it. And it needs a 2:1 halyard and would benefit from a small bow sprit. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bill Robart <wro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 5:46 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] new head sail; 150% genoa or Code Zero?

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[Dave Cole]

Most 155s are deck draggers.  I singlehand most of the time so visibility is an issue.  That alone is a good reason to stay away from them.

The code zero hype is almost too good to be true.   I'd talk to someone who actually has one before dropping that much cash.   Also... I'd ask about the materials uv resistance.   

Dave

On May 2, 2017 10:33 AM, "Guy Johnson" <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good points all, I'm not firm on the idea of a max sized head sail 155%. I only compete in one race a year and it's a local pursuit race. 

My 145% is old and has way too much draft and thus heel, I'd like something bigger than the 125% with good shape, a new 145% is an option, but if i'm going 145% why not go all the way to 155%? 

The code zero I have information on is a Doyle UPS (I like the Doyle loft in Salem, MA). 

Here's what they say about the UPS. 

-------------------

The Doyle Utility Power Sail (UPS) has proven for many years to be one of the most versatile cruising sailings, with an incredibly wide range of use. Coupled with modern Top-Down Furlers and powerful torque ropes that make the sail easy to set or furl, the UPS is a transformational sail for sailors who don't want to give up power in light air, or performance at any wind speed while reaching or running. The UPS is especially valuable for modern cruising yachts that have done away with larger, overlapping Genoas, but still need horsepower in lighter air. UPS Advantages:  Sets and Furls on its own Torque Rope and Furler – can be hoisted in advance of setting the sail and controlled from the cockpit  Goes Upwind and Downwind  Flies like a spinnaker, but does not collapse like a spinnaker – tighter luff and high-strength Torque Rope stabilize luff and are more forgiving to the skipper  33-160 degree Apparent Wind Range

---------

5kt wind speed at 33 AWA, 25kt wind speed at 160 AWA.

If the UPS lives up to it's claims it could be a very userful sail.... but it would mean hoisting it every time I wanted to use it. And it needs a 2:1 halyard and would benefit from a small bow sprit. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearson-boats@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bill Robart <wro...@gmail.com>