Mast finally Installed P10

[darin doherty]

After a long wait, I finally stepped my mast on my P10M on Friday.

All the wiring was replaced and run inside conduit, new spreader mounts (one of the original ones busted when the mooring failed last year), new lighting and electronics and Radar, New halyards (run internal to the mast), new mast step made out of stainless base and aluminum receiver separated by a layer of epoxy/glass.  The new mast step raised the mast out of the water in the bilge by 4 inches.  

All that, and the biggest PITA was the fact that the original wiring was encased in double foam insulation (like AC insulation several inches thick) that was then further encased in expanding foam up through out the mast that was installed by a series of 0.5" holes up the side of the mast.  The original wiring was unworkable, so when one of the ground wires failed for the steaming light, one of the POs pulled out the return and used a sheet metal screw to connect it to the outside of the mast directly into the aluminum. :( 

What a feeling to have a big project done like this.

My friend that helped me made a short time lapse video https://youtu.be/Q6216GPW9m8?si=Jf8yeDXLDpl8Ir4C 

Thanks to all for the information along the way.

Regards, 

Darin,  P10 #108, Titusville, Fl

[Robert Franklin]

For anyone rewiring their mast internally, here is what I did which has worked flawlessly for the past 15+ plus years.

I bundled the wires (quite a few of them) using loosely tightened small wire ties. This allowed me to separate the spreader wires so they could be run out to the spreaders.

As I pulled the wires through the mast I made a star configuration of heavy duty wire ties about every three to four feet cutting then ends so they were a little longer than the mast diameter.  This keeps the wires away from the sides of the mast. There is no banging as the star holds the wire bundle securely in the approximate center of the mast.

This eliminates foam, insulation and other ineffective means of preventing wire slap.  

Sunlight which would degrade the plastic wire ties, make them brittle and cause them to break is not an issue because nothing is exposed to the sun.

The star configuration of the wire ties had had no effect on the ease with which the halyards move within that arrangement.

From my experience, it is a perfect solution.

While I am onto some solutions that have arrived after 42 years ownership of my P36.  Here is one that people with leaky windows or leaky handrails may consider.

I have had both problems.

I removed the windows and carefully placed a Butyl tape bead around the perimeter before replacing them. The way I see it, the way I did it, it should be impossible for water to enter the window. The original gasket was properly and adequately intact, so that was not something I wanted to address, although it lingered in the back of my mind.

After doing this somewhat arduous job the first big rainfall arrived and the window over the galley and the one over my chart table leaked as it always had before the Butyl.

I was stumped and confounded to say the lease.

Meanwhile I had 2 beautiful new cabin top handrails in my Pearson collection, thanks to Rudy at D&R about 20 years ago. They were an exact fit and replacement for the original rails that "shrunk" due to wind, rain, sand and sun during the prior 50 years. The deterioration of the originals was undoubtedly hastened by my policy of not covering my boat. (I assume there are strong differences of opinion on this, but I am confident there is less deterioration that way).

While pondering the impossibility of the windows continuing to leak, I decided to distract myself from that anguish by removing the rails in and out and replacing the outer, reusing the inner which remained in like new condition from lack of sun, etc.

I reviewed the numerous replacement methods suggested on this site from a couple years back and decided on an approach which was mentioned by no one, but seemed best to me.

This, simply, consisted of using using a 6 inch ss wood screw [Bolt Depot], carefully lining marking and pre-drilling holes in the upper rail and tightening the outer and innder together from inside.  This design eliminates any chance of water entering from a loose or deteriorated teak bung on the upper/outer rail. Actually there is little chance of that being a source of water, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Again, I used Butyl Tape to "perfectly" seal each part of the rail that sits on the cabin top.

Or so I thought.

Next big rainstorm, the windows were leaking; the hand rails were leaking in some areas under the supporting frame.

How could this be!  How could this possibly be????

I thought long and hard. Maybe some of you have already solved the problem but I don't recall reading anything that suggests the analysis I finally came to and have tried with success, but I am waiting for a real deluge before I claim victory.

The problem actually had nothing to do with the windows, their bedding, the handrails, or their bedding.

I have a sea hood over my sliding companionway. It was an optional extra when the boat was built.

It turns out to be very easily removable consisting of a machine screw with a finish washer on each corner and two more doubled up on the leading edge of the hood.

I removed the 6 screws and cleaned the screw holes surface on the cabin top. They were dirty. I then took blue painters masking tape and taped each hole replacing the hood held down by ropes tied to the rails and other things that were available.

We've had some pretty decent rain since I did this a week ago and so far no drips.

This is a classic example of a "false positive" problem with a solution that addresses that obvious but false cause of the problem and doesn't work at all.

Just before the idea of the blue tape came to my mind I was all geared up to remove both windows and the inner and outer hand rails, tackling the perceived source of the problem by adding more and more Butyl. Butyl itself can become a big problem as anyone who has worked with it must surely know.

What then actually was the problem.

I'm still not absolutely sure, but I think this must have been it.

There is space between the cabin top and the cabin liner. This space I guess is cored mostly with cut end grain balsa. Guessing how this was done, I imagine it was not, nor intended to be a perfect job.

Water was entering the screw holes where the sea hood was attached. The screw were in place, but loose after all these years. Water was getting in and gravity was assisting it to flow to the edges of the cabin top and from there straight down to the windows and the part of the handrail just below the port and starboard sides of the cabin under the sea hood.

I think this has been the deal all along. Years and years of it. I've given my typical long winded theory. If I am wrong, and I could be, I'll be a little embarrassed to have drawn anyone's attention to this cabin leak problem and wasted their time. 

On the other hand, maybe someone else has had the same problem as I and fixed it by waterproofing fastenings on the cabin top and elsewhere that have loosened over time. So this thread applies to all kinds of holes in the boat, not just from a sea hood. 

Maybe you will say the solution was obvious from the start. I wish that were true. It wasn't for me.

Let me know please.

Bob Franklin

[pau...@perhapscoaching.com]

You are an inspiration Bob – so patient and willing to go to the ‘far ends’ to find the problem!!

 

Pauleen

 

Pauleen Ward Brown

31.2 P hull #20

Sailing out of Breezy Point NY

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[Jeff Griglack]

Bob,

I have heard about the "star configuration" for years but never tried it myself.  I was wondering if you have internal halyards because I could see this interfering with the internal halyards.  The tube attached inside the mast would prevent the internal halyards and wires from interfering with each other, and it allows for added wires or rewires in the future.

As for your water woes, water travels.  The leak you have is almost never where you expect it.  Yesterday, I tried to open the forward hanging locker on my P365 (one of 3, which seems a little excessive to me), but the latch would not move.  Eventually, I forced it, which was difficult with only a finger fitting through the hole, to find the latch rusted.  There were no clothes in the locker, but some things that were left from the PO.  These were rusted or slightly wet.  There is no evidence of water from above, so I am going to have to figure out where it is coming from.

Thanks for the tip about the sea hood.  I doubt mine has been touched in the 44 years since the boat left the factory.  I will add rebedding it, just to be on the safe side, to my list.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

[Peter Ogilvie]

The hatch hood fasteners sealant failed, original fastener holes were drilled to large causing leaks later on or wasn’t caulked in first place.  The beauty of butyl is it stays flexible so can maintain its sealing ability with movement of whatever it’s meant to seal.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 25, 2023, at 08:38, Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Bob Maxwell]

There was another option for controlling wires on my old P30. The mast had an internal slot in the extrusion that was sized to hold barrel shaped sail slides.  I tied sail slides every few feet on the wire harness and fed them into the groove. It worked well.

Bob

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

On the wire zip tie solution.... I would have a strong cord in the bundle that is tied at the top of the mast to support the weight of the bundle of wires rather tan the wired doing that themselves.   Something like what you would use for a messenger line.  Personally I prefer a conduit and I added on in my 10M mast. 
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/mast_conduit.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

[darin doherty]

I have seen the wire tie spider idea.  Where I wanted to go to internal halyards, this would not have been practical in my case, but would have been much less expensive.  For simplicity, it would have been great.  The real issue I had was the expanding foam which made the whole job much harder than it should have been.  The other thing with the conduit is it allows single wires to be installed for growth if I want to add a camera or some other sensor.

I am glad you mentioned the leaking windows and deck fittings/fasteners.  I completely rebuilt the window above the chart table and re-sealed it with 4200 and it still leaks.  I really believe it was coming from somewhere and running between the cabin top and headliner.

I did notice rain pooling in the companion way hatch guides along the slides.  I don't have a sea hood (yet).  I was wondering if it was coming in from the fasteners in the slides for the companionway hatch.  While I am in the yard, I plan to spray with water from a hose to try to locate where the water was coming from.  Your notes on the sea hood would seem to confirm this area.

Regards,

Darin

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:38 AM Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Robert Franklin]

Dan,

I agree but can't recall whether or not I used an additional support wire dedicated to hold the bundle up.

The conduit is ideal. I assume it needs to be riveted to the mast - no small job. And rivets and  conduit need to be compatible metals. The edge of the conduit would need to be smooth so it does not cut the wire insulation. Then there is the fact of a bit of extra weight aloft. I'm sure you thought of all this and more. 

For me the wire tie approach was quick, easy and cheap.  I forgot to mention that I've never had a halyard hangup probably because  there is little resistance from the wire ties. 

It has been a long time, but as best as I can remember this is what is bundled:

Wind direction vane light (red tabs)

Mast head light

Signet wind speed/wind angle wire

Foredeck light on mast at spreaders)

-

No Radar wiring which comes from a pole on the stern.

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[Peter Ogilvie]

Replaced the foam stuffed in the mast with a conduit.  Had to drill one hole to insert a home made bent welding rod to hold the conduit against the mast to drill and rivet.  Took a couple hours to install the conduit and has worked out great other than I should have installed it on the other side of the mast.

Peter Ogilvie

Pearson 35

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[darin doherty]

So, for my conduit I used 1.5"  external PVC conduit (The grey conduit) up to the radar feedthrough,  and 1.25 from there to the mast head.

Aluminum rivets

Grommets at every wire exit.

The only trick was to flaten and put in a small bend using a heat gun to get the conduit to run up along the side of the sheave blocks.

I installed:

mast head light (Anchor and Tricolor)

windex light

wind instrument (Garmin)

radio/ais antenna

Radar

Horn

Steaming.Deck light

Spreader lights (Deck)

And headlights on the spreaders.

The masthead cable (5/14 AWG) has internal support strands.

I upped all the wire for voltage drop and strength to the ABYC recommended awg and all are jacketed.  I don't have any concerns for the stress on the wire nor for chafing.

The conduit does a really good job of keeping the wires constrained, protected, maintainable, and I can still run a fishtape from the mast head to the feedthrough at the base.  And now the inside of the mast is cleaned out without obstruction if I want to add anything else in the future.

One interesting thing I noted on the halyards.  Where the mast head sheaves are, there was already an opening in the center of the sheave block to run the halyards though for internal halyards.  This was a nice find as I didn't need to cut my own.

One of these days I plan on adding a staysail and running back stays (This was done on one P 10 example shown recently).

The PVC conduit seemed to be the best option from what I saw.  I looked into aluminum and other materials.  The pop rivets hold it very securely. 

Darin

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[darin doherty]

One thing I did not replace as I could not find any replacements was the U Bolts at the top of the mast.  They are 3/8 SS but have an odd width.  Does anyone have a source for these U Bolts.  I really need to change one out.

Thanks,

Darin

[Jeff Griglack]

Some of the masts on Pearson boats had tracks inside the mast.  This would allow you to attach the wire bundle to mast slugs and raise it up the mast.  My P30 had this, and I think my P365 does as well.  The attached picture shows one such mast (the internal track is on the left side, near the front of the mast).

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/CACS9t2fydc84Fhhz%3DhLbGsARs0J-KfDc2ihS48kLO8qoE-Z_kA%40mail.gmail.com.